Ah!  Indeed, I did misunderstand.  I have no idea if their ballot initiative will pass.  I hope that it won't.  However, all they have to do is get the proper number of signatures, right? 

Smitherman wrote the President in opposition to the streetcar project with references to COAST and the local Green Party.  Prior to this Mayor Mark Mallory, Senator Sherrod Brown, Congressman Steve Driehaus, and Governor Ted Strickland all were in a letter requesting money for this project (and others) specifically showing their support.

 

Gov. Strickland, Mayor Mallory, Sen. Brown, Congressman Driehaus > Christopher Smitherman, local Green Party, COAST

I always enjoy when Smitherman whips out the "Chris Smitherman Book O' Facts" to cite his sources.

 

His silly unemployment math would have every white in Cincinnati having a job, and the entire 25-30% unemployed being black.  I'm really hoping that's just a math mistake, and his common sense didn't click in.  If he really believes that.. well I was going to say I'd think he was an even bigger idiot, but that's not possible, so if he believes it I guess it changes nothing.

I'm just surprised that he didn't have someone proof read a letter meant for the eyes of the President of the United States!  Or, that multiple people read that letter and didn't question the math.

Today, I found some pictures that I took in Portland back in 2006.  I've seen a lot of pictures that show what these vehicles look like from the sidewalk, but these show what it's like to drive behind them.  I like the third one quite a bit, because you can see the taught wire that runs overhead.  It gives you a sense for how unobtrusive they are.  Also, I think it's fun to see two streetcars passing eachother.  Yes, I'm aware that I'm a nerd.  They were taken on the spur of the moment, with my cell phone, while driving, so please forgive the quality:

 

 

 

 

Ah!  Indeed, I did misunderstand.  I have no idea if their ballot initiative will pass.  I hope that it won't.  However, all they have to do is get the proper number of signatures, right? 

 

They have to get 6,000 or so signatures to get it on the ballot. Then they have to win in November.

 

 

I want to write barack and tell him how much an average cincinnatian would appreciate a streetcar. I was at Krause's deli at findlay market today and they had a picture of the portland streetcar sitting on one of their shelves. Got me pumped to say the least.

 

^ Several of the Findlay merchants have photos posted now. Tell the people where you shop that you're a streetcar supporter. Luken's Seafood could use a little education in this regard.

Perhaps we can get some nice cards made for display, for instance, at Findlay Market that has a photo of a streetcar.

Does anybody know if the City is going to interview all four vendors who responded to the RFQ and when they will select one of them?  I would have to think that First Transit base locally and one of the largest transit operators in the nation would also be on one of the teams.

If you haven't seen the cincinnati.com article about Smitherman's letter since it originally appeared a couple of days ago, take another look. The Comments are running heavily against his writing the letter to President Obama, and the pro-streetcar "Recommended" Comments are running about 20:1 over the anti-streetcar Comments.

 

Have a look:

 

http://news.cincinnati.com/apps/pbcs.dll/section?Category=blog02&plckController=Blog&plckScript=blogScript&plckElementId=blogDest&plckBlogPage=BlogViewPost&plckPostId=Blog%3aec38bb2b-982e-46ba-819a-da01a547e8eaPost%3aa2150926-95dd-465c-a641-2dff0a399893&sid=sitelife.cincinnati.com

 

 

Cincinnati Nation has picked up the Smitherman letter story. See:

 

http://www.cincynation.com/

Does anybody know if the City is going to interview all four vendors who responded to the RFQ and when they will select one of them? I would have to think that First Transit base locally and one of the largest transit operators in the nation would also be on one of the teams.

FirstTransit is actually a business group of FirstGroup which is based out of the U.K. Furthermore, their expertise is in the area of buses - as you can see on their website http://www.firsttransit.com/services_mgmt_consulting.php.

Does anybody know if the City is going to interview all four vendors who responded to the RFQ and when they will select one of them?  I would have to think that First Transit base locally and one of the largest transit operators in the nation would also be on one of the teams.

 

They are on one of the four teams

Reading this threat is making me chuckle! oh Smitherman

I'll be there tommorow.

 

Sounding Sessions # 1 - The Streetcar Proposal

 

When: Monday, February 02, 2009

Time: 6:00:00 PM - 8:00:00 PM

Location: Music Hall - Cincinnati Opera Garrett Board Room

Description: Recently, the local Green Party, local chapter of the NAACP, and Green Township officials have come out against the streetcar proposal. On the other hand, the City Council and Mayor Mallory have endorsed it. Other cities are doing it, why can't we? Who's right? Who's wrong? Decide for yourself when Give Back Cincinnati gives you the opportunity to meet and pose your questions to city leaders familiar with the project. We'll provide two opportunities for you to learn more about the streetcar proposal: February 2nd and February 3rd. Both sessions will be held from 6 pm to 8 pm at the Cincinnati Opera Garrett Board Room at Music Hall.

 

http://www.givebackcincinnati.org/v3/events_details.asp?EventID=1296

 

 

I thought the Cincinnati Streetcar was going to happen no matter what.  Am I wrong? Are their still hoops to be jumped through?

I thought the Cincinnati Streetcar was going to happen no matter what. Am I wrong? Are their still hoops to be jumped through?

 

Nothing is done until it is built and running in this town.  I think the Council has approved the plan---although not unanimously.  I am very hopeful it will happen.  That being said, I am reminded everytime I drive by the nonfunctioning subway tunnel entrances on I-75 that projects like these can be shut down in any phase for a wide variety of reasons.

Cincinnati Nation has picked up the Smitherman letter story. See:

 

http://www.cincynation.com/

 

Smitherman writing this letter may be the best thing that happened to the streetcar proposal! :)

City Council Goes Over Stimulus Wish List Projects

Reported by: Bill Price

Email: [email protected]

 

City Creating 'Wish List' For Fed Stimulus Money

Efforts are picking up steam to make sure Cincinnati and the entire Tri-State speak with a single voice on how billions of dollars in federal economic recovery money are used.

 

Last month, Cincinnati Mayor Mark Mallory submitted over $332 million in spending requests to Ohio Senators and Representatives. The city's "wish list" as some are calling it shows how Cincinnati wants to spend its porton of the almost $9 billion in economic recovery money.

 

Just before Noon on Monday, the Cincinnati City Council Rules and Governing Committee started going over the list to make sure it's the best possible list of job-creating and city improving projects possible.

 

Council members heard from representatives of City Manager Milton Dohoney who told the committee that the manager's top priority is getting the list to congressional representatives and federal officials. Officials say that would make sure Cincinnati voices will be heard on how the economic stimulus money should be spent.

 

Among the top priorities mentioned by some council members was bigger appropriations for a new Brent Spence Bridge. The proposed $1 billion replacement bridge for interstate 71 and 75 is considered a vital regional lifeline that would create jobs and help the region's economy.

 

Council members also say more federal funding help for the proposed Cincinnati streetcar line from Downtown to Over-the-Rhine and Corryville, would be an good job generator with long-term benefits as well.

 

Cincinnati Council Member Jeff Berding tells 9News, "That's one of the reasons I'm holding this hearing today. We've got to make sure this is a good list that follows the president's and congress' priorities. We need to work together to maximize the opportunity for Cincinnati to be included in the stimulus package."

 

But this won't be the only meeting on a Tri-State wish list for an economic stimulus package.

 

A Monday afternoon session is expected to bring together some city leaders with some of the Hamilton County Commissioners to hammer out regional priorities.

 

The whole idea is that if the Tri-State can speak with a single voice on the most important projects, that could increase their chances of actually getting federal funding.

 

http://www.wcpo.com/content/financialsurvival/yourlocalstories/story/City-Council-Goes-Over-Stimulus-Wish-List-Projects/CjZ_Ddvg6kCFXLMTw2ncFw.cspx

^ The bridge should be a state priority not just a city priority. Hopefully Ohio and Ky are on the same page with trying to get some of this money.

Sorry if this has already been addressed in this thread, but if there is a future connector to NKY, who is going to pay for it?  I would assume Newport/Covington would and not Cincinnati (at least for the part that is in KY).  I'm a big streetcar proponent, but I sure wouldn't want to pay for it to go into KY.

^

 

That would never happen. In fact, in the 2002 MetroMoves plan that had a streetcar line heading toward Newport and Covington, it stopped at the water's edge. It would not have been built until KY was ready to connect to it.

 

 

Cincinnati Nation has picked up the Smitherman letter story. See:

 

http://www.cincynation.com/

 

 

Smitherman writing this letter may be the best thing that happened to the streetcar proposal! :)

 

 

He's getting some really bad advice from people with other agendas. My guess is, he will recalibrate his opposition.

To me it doesn't seem to matter what Smitherman thinks of the streetcar or Obama for that matter since the stimulus bill send funding out along formula allocation to the states etc.  The biggest determinant on how much money the streetcar could potentially get will be decided in Columbus and at OKI not in DC.  It will be interesting over the next few months to see how things play out.  Everybody's wish list is much larger than the money that's accutally going to be available.

 

The biggest chunk of money locally listed by ODOT for shovel ready projects is the replacement of the Jeremiah Moorow Bridge over the Little Miami River.

 

Hopefully one of the vendors for the streetcar or some other private money will be able to plug the funding gap because it still seems like there is a lot of ground to cover.

Hopefully one of the vendors for the streetcar or some other private money will be able to plug the funding gap because it still seems like there is a lot of ground to cover.

 

I don't know where you get that idea that there is a "lot of ground to cover." We have around $70 million (announced) for a $132 million project (that's what was approved...the Downtown/OTR route and Uptown connector).

 

In case you're confused on the costs of the various routes and what is what, you might want to have a quick look at this informative post:

 

http://cincystreetcar.wordpress.com/2009/02/02/the-project/

 

The map included breaks down the cost for each leg identified on the map.

I would consider $62 million a lot of ground to cover. 

 

Granted the project may get some stimulus funds but at the same time the TIF portion of the plan may be over optimistic at this point and any inflation due a delay in the construction timeline would likely increase the need for additional revenue.

 

I think the project will happen when and if the state or the feds contribute most of the funding needed one way or the other or there is some other way to fund the bonds needed for construction. 

 

Did anybody get to the sounding session last night?  I'm interested to hear how it went.  I'm going tonight.

I still wish in vain for a Bellevue Incline Plane, rather than an awkward, try to stay on your feet, 2 mph climb up Vine St. 

Did anybody get to the sounding session last night? I'm interested to hear how it went. I'm going tonight.

 

I'm going tonight as well.

although I recognize that there's an obvious apples and oranges flaw, it should be noted that the Mill Creek Expressway/I-75 project (not to be confused with the "Through the Valley/I75 project), which will essentially add an 8 mile lane of freeway in both directions of 75 between Western Hills Viaduct and Paddock and revamp on/off ramps, will cost an estimates $642.5 million.  That's an extra lane of freeway for 8 miles, plus revamping interchanges.

 

That's an important number just to keep things in perspective when discussing the cost of the streetcar projecta nd the anticipated benefits.

 

In addition, the Through the Valley project, adding 4 more lanes from Paddock to I75, is another $149 million (at least).

 

 

$800 million to basically add a few lanes to a relatively short stretch of 75.  And people are bitching about 180 million for a transformative streetcar system?  It's all about perspective.

 

 

 

A big part of the capital expense of any rail transit project is the vehicles themselves, so part of that $180 figure is for the streetcars themselves.  A lot of rail opponents, by using specific numbers, argue that you can buy a car for every bus or train rider, but the fact is to use highways or roads you need to buy, pay interest, insure, register, maintain, either directly or indirectly pay for parking, and fuel a vehicle.  Also, most people understand that those without cars do benefit from a region's highways, but many of those same people have a hard time understanding that people who don't and won't use a transit system do benefit from improving a region's public transportation.   

A big part of the capital expense of any rail transit project is the vehicles themselves, so part of that $180 figure is for the streetcars themselves.  A lot of rail opponents, but using specific numbers, argue that you can buy a car for every bus or train rider, but the fact is to use highways or roads you need to buy, pay interest, insure, register, maintain, either directly or indirectly pay for parking, and fuel a vehicle.   

 

Jake's totally correct. If the depreciation and operating expenses for all those cars (and 15,000 more trucks each day) that will be induced to travel on the newly-widened I-75, one would have a totally different view of the efficacy of freeway projects. I'm not anti-highway, just aware of their total costs.

 

 

If we think our battle to get streetcars built is challenging. . . check out what's going in Israel, where a streetcar is focusing quite a bit of the generalized anger over the problems in the Middle East on a poor tram. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB123335459230234871.html (It may be locked by the pay wall).

I wouldn't be too worried. Go to this site and see pics of where LRT and streetcars are operating successfully all over the world. There's even a pic of a streetcar threading its way through war-damaged Sarajevo.

 

See: http://www.shugotram.jp/twrldmap/twrldmae.html

 

 

although I recognize that there's an obvious apples and oranges flaw, it should be noted that the Mill Creek Expressway/I-75 project (not to be confused with the "Through the Valley/I75 project), which will essentially add an 8 mile lane of freeway in both directions of 75 between Western Hills Viaduct and Paddock and revamp on/off ramps, will cost an estimates $642.5 million. That's an extra lane of freeway for 8 miles, plus revamping interchanges.

 

That's an important number just to keep things in perspective when discussing the cost of the streetcar projecta nd the anticipated benefits.

 

In addition, the Through the Valley project, adding 4 more lanes from Paddock to I75, is another $149 million (at least).

 

 

$800 million to basically add a few lanes to a relatively short stretch of 75. And people are bitching about 180 million for a transformative streetcar system? It's all about perspective.

 

 

 

 

Regardless of the success rate, those 8 miles will have a large impact on this entire region, and measurable impact on Detroit, Atlanta and Florida.  The streetcar as currently proposed impacts Downtown ,Over-the-Rhine, Uptown, and hopefully, tourists.  The streetcar as currently proposed cannot lower poverty in Cincinnati, but less traffic on 75 in addition to a new Brent Spence could increase the amount of freight coming through, or better yet, jobs in this region.  If the city wants to address poverty and tax base, it should sell a bigger system that might cost $800 million but serves the entire city.  I could see the city getting behind the idea that a streetcar is coming to the ignored westside, trendy eastside, and most importantly, the forgotten ghettos.  LRT can be handled by SORTA.

^ Good point, increased lanes on interstates are proven economic development tools, when has a streetcar ever been linked to job creation and redevelopment?

^ Good point, increased lanes on interstates are proven economic development tools...

 

Please find a citation for this, that is not the FHWA or a pro-highway agency.

 

...when has a streetcar ever been linked to job creation and redevelopment?

 

Please tell me you have read this thread to find the many valid citations on the ROR for a streetcar.

Re the Smitherman letter: 

 

why are the Greens opposing this?  It seems a streetcar aligns with the Green philosophy, or am I missing something.

^ Good point, increased lanes on interstates are proven economic development tools, when has a streetcar ever been linked to job creation and redevelopment?

 

god i hope you're being sarcastic

 

Did anybody get to the sounding session last night? I'm interested to hear how it went. I'm going tonight.

 

I'm going tonight as well.

 

Could one of you fill the rest of us in?

I planned on going tonight, but the adverse weather conditions prevented me from doing so. My 15 minute commute home from Xavier to OTR took nearly an hour (55 minutes). All major routes were completely congested, and the hill routes were either becoming impassable or were entirely congested.

^Now was the streetcar route congested? They may have to dedicated a lane streetcar only.

it was a canned presentation made to streetcar supporters;

 

i was really looking for a debate, but thats not at all how it went

^ Good point, increased lanes on interstates are proven economic development tools, when has a streetcar ever been linked to job creation and redevelopment?

 

these two posts are a joke right?? Please tell me it's a joke.

 

The only thing proven is that adding lanes to a freeway adds more cars (and more congestion).  Just ask Detroit, Atlanta and...well... Florida.

 

You've got to be kidding me.  Adding a lane to the freeway each way does nothing for economic development.  You're not going to show me empirical evidence that demonstrates otherwise. 

What a mess the expressways were tonight.  On the way home, all I could think of was "why in the hell does this city have no rail transit?"  I would so much rather have been riding on a train than moving 2 mph through the sludge.

What a mess the expressways were tonight.  On the way home, all I could think of was "why in the hell does this city have no rail transit?"  I would so much rather have been riding on a train than moving 2 mph through the sludge.

 

Yeah. I debated taking Metro #4 home, but it would have been just as bad since they use the roadways for transport :(

:) I was kidding, though I don't think Blights was

I was thinking...if and when this ends up on the November ballot, how do we go about educating people?  It's clearly going to be an uphill climb, with every major media source calling it a trolley or calling for trolleys themselves. 

 

The question is, how do we reach out to everyone in the city?  The streetcar sound-off sessions were fine, but they're only preaching to the choir?  How do we reach and educate the undecided/uninformed/opposed?

 

I can just see some guy in a voting booth in November honestly voting down any rail/streetcar initiative because he thinks it will raise his taxes.

^ Good point, increased lanes on interstates are proven economic development tools...

 

Please find a citation for this, that is not the FHWA or a pro-highway agency.

 

...when has a streetcar ever been linked to job creation and redevelopment?

 

Please tell me you have read this thread to find the many valid citations on the ROR for a streetcar.

 

Whichever one will have more of an economic point isn't too big of an issue, I think.  Honestly, we need both the streetcar, and an I-75 upgrade - that highway is greatly undersized for its current traffic load.  They don't need to be competing issues, though.  The I-75 project is state and federally funded, while the streetcar is going to be mostly locally and privately funded.

:) I was kidding, though I don't think Blights was

 

PSHEW