http://www.stimuluswatch.org/

 

 

It looks like the streetcar is one of the least to get vetoed.

http://www.stimuluswatch.org/

 

 

It looks like the streetcar is one of the least to get vetoed.

 

Nice find. Let's get the vote out!

voted for it, and the two cincinnati ones towards the bottom too.  :)

http://www.stimuluswatch.org/

 

 

It looks like the streetcar is one of the least to get vetoed.

 

NICE FIND!

I wouldn't be too worried. Go to this site and see pics of where LRT and streetcars are operating successfully all over the world. There's even a pic of a streetcar threading its way through war-damaged Sarajevo.

 

See: http://www.shugotram.jp/twrldmap/twrldmae.html

 

 

 

Wow, those pics of Sarajevo are sad...I can't believe the olympics were there.

(back on topic)

 

I posted a while back about how Cincinnati doesn't show up on maps EXACTLY like that.  Someone over in Europe might stumble on a page like that and have what's listed there as their only knowledge of American cities.  (So, they'd know about Trenton, Little Rock, Tucson, and Lowell but NOT CINCINNATI)  The simple publicity of a streetcar has not been factored into many equations in this discussion, but it should be. 

 

Looks at what Pittsburgh has done with it's resources.  It's similar is size, topography, architectural integrity, etc.  But they'd show up maps of cities with: Streetcars, Subways, Inclines, Light Rail, AND Bus Rapid Transit where Cincinnati would be left in the dust. 

 

Cincinnati has the advantage of subways tunnels that it can use to kill two birds with one stone POTENTIALLY, but I guess at this point I could settle for one bird. 

 

Any way you slice it though, this is not even a serious debate.  Cincinnati needs the streetcar to survive in today's LESS AUTO-CENTRIC WORLD. 

http://www.stimuluswatch.org/

 

 

It looks like the streetcar is one of the least to get vetoed.

 

WOW, check out that "Most Critical" tab.  Cincinnati's got a lot of stuff on that list.  I didn't count, but it looks like Cincy, Buffalo, and Austin are duking it out for the majority of the money.

 

I feel kind of bad for Laurel, MS though.  They really couldn't find anything more important to fix than doorbells?

> would so much rather have been riding on a train than moving 2 mph through the sludge.

 

This is an area where dedicated ROW and grade separation give heavy rail systems a distinct advantage.  Montreal is the only city in the world that has built its entire metro underground, including the shops.  The I-71 light rail would have been paralyzed last night by gridlock on Martin Luther King Dr.  I have been critical of surface running on MLK because of the needs of emergency vehicles and the incredible surges of traffic in and out of the hospital complexes.  Last night it took me an hour to drive from MLK at Reading to MLK at Vine, a distance of about a mile. 

 

So the "stimulus watch" website lists $132 million for the streetcar...

 

Does this mean that Cincinnati has actually requested $132 million (in federal grants? loans? bonds?) for the streetcar project? I had been under the impression that less than 70 million was still needed.

They are trying to get as much money as they can so that they could add it to the amount currently ready and complete possibly multiple phases of the project.

 

At least that was my understand from the Enquirer article on the city's requests.

At the sounding session, Michael Moore implied that we actually requested less than the $57 million that we are trying to get from public/private partnerships.  He also noted that current guidance for "shovel-ready" projects is 120 days, which clearly excludes the streetcar (unfortunately).

 

Unless we get significant federal funding for the streetcar before November, my fear is that we're stuck riding the bus for the foreseeable future.

I've heard that we are now within reach of having enough money to build the Downtown-OTR segment.

 

I disagree that having the money together before a November vote means that the streetcar goes forward in spite of the outcome of the vote. The way the ballot issue is written, it prevents the city from spending any money -- that could be staff time -- for passenger rail. This is going to be a city-owned project with some city staff overseeing the managers of the system. So if the November ballot passes, even if the money is together by then, I see problems down the road with respect to the operation, and certainly the expansion, of the streetcar network.

 

There is really no other way to say it: we need to defeat the ballot issue if they get the signatures.

That's great!  The streetcar was in the negative this morning.  Now it's second for Most Active.

 

There is really no other way to say it: we need to defeat the ballot issue if they get the signatures.

 

Actually, I agree completely.  Will that even be remotely possible?

^ As one of the most conservative people most of my acquaintances know, I would do my best to educate people about this issue. 

 

Even if they don't support a street car, pointing out the fact that the wording of the issue is ridiculous, and that it has no place in a city charter might help change a few minds. 

 

The key would be making people aware that this is different than the light rail measure a few years ago, and that there is no tax hike involved here.  That is the big point, you wouldn't be voting to give the city more money, just voting to allow the city to spend it on infrastructure projects in the future. 

I was thinking...if and when this ends up on the November ballot, how do we go about educating people? It's clearly going to be an uphill climb, with every major media source calling it a trolley or calling for trolleys themselves.

 

The question is, how do we reach out to everyone in the city? The streetcar sound-off sessions were fine, but they're only preaching to the choir? How do we reach and educate the undecided/uninformed/opposed?

 

I can just see some guy in a voting booth in November honestly voting down any rail/streetcar initiative because he thinks it will raise his taxes.

 

That's a great question and something we need to be prepared to do. I'm not sure how to educate the average citizen about this project and the issue. Mass mailings, Q&A type events at all of Cincy's neighborhoods, an ad in the local paper? Whatever it may be it should be organized, concise, and very positive..

^

 

I think that organizing happy hours downtown and along the Streetcar line to get people excited about downtown and the momentum that would be created by a streetcar. YPs and empty nesters are going to be the most important demographic to educate and get them fighting for the streetcar

^

 

A campaign organization is forming. Stay tuned.

^

 

I think that organizing happy hours downtown and along the Streetcar line to get people excited about downtown and the momentum that would be created by a streetcar. YPs and empty nesters are going to be the most important demographic to educate and get them fighting for the streetcar

 

That's a great idea and one that would be easy, cheap, fun, and a good place to start. There also needs to be an orchestrated effort though to educate those outside of downtown and OTR who don't see anything in it for them, don't understand the ballot measure, or don't care enough to find out more information on their own.

 

Can't wait to hear about a campaign organization, John...

Excatley what is the opposition to this about...what are their points?

^

It's never about the money with these guys. The 2002 MetroMoves plan of five light rail lines, two streetcar lines and a huge increase in the bus system, would have cost an average Hamilton County household about $68 per month. Brad Thomas is working on an estimation of what the streetcar plan would cost an average Cincinnati family per year, and it's probably going to be less that the cost of a lunch.

 

Their opposition is more fundamental, that offering people choices about how they move around which are different from what they do today is somehow bad. On most other issues, these guys would honor the idea of people having choices. They just have a real blind spot here. And there is a lot of anti-city sentiment at work here too. I wouldn't ascribe a lot of rationality to it.

He also noted that current guidance for "shovel-ready" projects is 120 days, which clearly excludes the streetcar (unfortunately).

 

I'm not sure what "shovel-ready" entails, but it seems like the city could place orders for streetcars, rails, equipment, etc within 120 days, given that they know exactly what they need.  And since the route is already determined, I'd guess they could start tearing up street as well, as long as they knew they had the money to finish.  To me, 4 months seems like a long enough time to get the initial grounbreaking together.

^

One problem will be the "Buy America" provisions of the bill. There is only one producer of the girder rail used for streetcars in the world, and it's not in America. Oregon Iron Works is licensing and building a version of the Skoda streetcar used by Seattle, Tacoma and Portland, but they are way behind schedule building the first vehicle and aren't up to producing in quantity.

 

Knowing all the engineering that goes into planning these things -- finding the conflicts in the street, engineering the power, and so on -- nothing visible can really happen for most of a year, I think.

^

 

I know of a lot of steel mills and auto plants that are unused around Ohio!

He also noted that current guidance for "shovel-ready" projects is 120 days, which clearly excludes the streetcar (unfortunately).

 

I'm not sure what "shovel-ready" entails, but it seems like the city could place orders for streetcars, rails, equipment, etc within 120 days, given that they know exactly what they need.  And since the route is already determined, I'd guess they could start tearing up street as well, as long as they knew they had the money to finish.  To me, 4 months seems like a long enough time to get the initial grounbreaking together.

 

The $132 million portion of the streetcar project (Downtown/OTR Circulator and Uptown Connector) is included in Cincinnati's "shovel ready" project list.

And there is a lot of anti-city sentiment at work here too. I wouldn't ascribe a lot of rationality to it.

 

You hit the nail on the head.  People in Cincinnati simply hate downtown, whether it's because of a race issue or what...they simply want downtown to fail as if downtown failing somehow helps surrounding neighborhoods.

The $132 million portion of the streetcar project (Downtown/OTR Circulator and Uptown Connector) is included in Cincinnati's "shovel ready" project list.

 

I'm just going on what Michael Moore said at the sounding session.  There is no way we're breaking ground in 120 days.  He pretty much said said those exact words. 

 

 

For the Streetcar, City Council has only approved $800,000 to study the Uptown area, and given the City Manager permission to look for private funding commitments.  Until the city selects a design/build/operate/finance firm, finalizes a financing plan, gets funding approval from council, contracts with the DB firm, begins preliminary engineering, and jumps through any environmental strings that are probably tied to the federal money...no shovels are going in the ground. 

And there is a lot of anti-city sentiment at work here too. I wouldn't ascribe a lot of rationality to it.

 

You hit the nail on the head.  People in Cincinnati simply hate downtown, whether it's because of a race issue or what...they simply want downtown to fail as if downtown failing somehow helps surrounding neighborhoods.

 

I obviously can't speak for everyone, but my father dislikes downtown because of what it used to be.  He still remembers the esplande Fountain Square before the first redesign in the 60s and how vibrant the city used to be.  I think downtown is great, but my comparison is with how it was in the 90s so it seems to have made tremendous progress.  His view is entirely different, as he just sees how much has been lost since his childhood.  Whenever I ask him about different projects happening, he cites a laundry list of mishandled Cincinnati projects over the last 50 years, and says that he just doesn't have the energy anymore.  The worst part is that he loves rail transit, but doesn't like the streetcar plan because he's "sure that the city will find a way to screw it up, just like they screwed up by putting GABP on the river instead of in Broadway Commons, where it belongs." 

 

In any case, there are at least some people out there who love(d) downtown, but who just don't see it coming back.  I totally agree that there are many who hate downtown, though.

That's an excellent point and I think that has a lot to do with why young people are much more intrigued and optimistic about downtown. Historical memory can play a role in how you view a place.

For the Streetcar, City Council has only approved $800,000 to study the Uptown area, and given the City Manager permission to look for private funding commitments. Until the city selects a design/build/operate/finance firm, finalizes a financing plan, gets funding approval from council, contracts with the DB firm, begins preliminary engineering, and jumps through any environmental strings that are probably tied to the federal money...no shovels are going in the ground.

 

Very true. Even if most of these items could be fast tracked, its still a year at best.

And there is a lot of anti-city sentiment at work here too. I wouldn't ascribe a lot of rationality to it.

 

You hit the nail on the head. People in Cincinnati simply hate downtown, whether it's because of a race issue or what...they simply want downtown to fail as if downtown failing somehow helps surrounding neighborhoods.

 

but doesn't like the streetcar plan because he's "sure that the city will find a way to screw it up, just like they screwed up by putting GABP on the river instead of in Broadway Commons, where it belongs."

 

 

We wouldn't even be talking about The Banks right now if the shared infrastructure of the stadia were not available to lift the riverfront out of the flood plain, something Cincinnatians have been trying to to do for 220 years.

Is somebody available who has a better vocabulary than I, able to edit the "Points In Favor" section for the streetcar initiative.  Looks like Mr. Smitherman or somebody has already filled out the "Points Against" section?

It's a Wiki format.

 

http://www.stimuluswatch.org/project/view/3393

There was a wonderful "Points in Favor" there just about an hour ago.  They must have deleted it.    :x

what a crock of shit. (that someone would delete that).  If it's a good wiki, it can be restored. 

Whoever is doing it is sure not getting their point across.  It's funny, cause that vote ratio keeps climbing in the positive territory.  I encourage anyone else from this site who still hasn't voted to check it out and VOTE!     It may not mean much, but it puts our cause front and center from a national point of view.

Take time to check out some of the other local and Ohio projects too.

And there is a lot of anti-city sentiment at work here too. I wouldn't ascribe a lot of rationality to it.

 

You hit the nail on the head. People in Cincinnati simply hate downtown, whether it's because of a race issue or what...they simply want downtown to fail as if downtown failing somehow helps surrounding neighborhoods.

 

but doesn't like the streetcar plan because he's "sure that the city will find a way to screw it up, just like they screwed up by putting GABP on the river instead of in Broadway Commons, where it belongs."

 

 

We wouldn't even be talking about The Banks right now if the shared infrastructure of the stadia were not available to lift the riverfront out of the flood plain, something Cincinnatians have been trying to to do for 220 years.

 

True.  That is a definite upside to the plan chosen.  But I can see why people wanted the stadiums to be located further inland, where they could be surrounded by a neighborhood (like Wrigley Field).  Also, one can make an argument that with all the surface lots available in the CBD, The Banks wasn't really necessary w/o the 2 stadiums sitting there.  The riverfront park could have just been that much bigger (and possibly some of the old establishments like the Spaghetti Factory and Caddy's would still exist, though I can't really remember where they were now that all the new stuff is in place).  I disagree with that line of thinking, but I can see where someone could argue that infill should have taken priority over building a brand new section of downtown.  Personally, I think we need to look at every day as Day 1, assess our situation, what's possible NOW, and plan for the future based on that.  For better or worse, the decisions that got us here have already been made, so it's important that we move forward as best we can with what we've got.

And there is a lot of anti-city sentiment at work here too. I wouldn't ascribe a lot of rationality to it.

 

You hit the nail on the head. People in Cincinnati simply hate downtown, whether it's because of a race issue or what...they simply want downtown to fail as if downtown failing somehow helps surrounding neighborhoods.

 

but doesn't like the streetcar plan because he's "sure that the city will find a way to screw it up, just like they screwed up by putting GABP on the river instead of in Broadway Commons, where it belongs."

 

 

We wouldn't even be talking about The Banks right now if the shared infrastructure of the stadia were not available to lift the riverfront out of the flood plain, something Cincinnatians have been trying to to do for 220 years.

 

You guys have to admit, Cincinnati has botched a lot of decisions regarding downtown for a long time.  It's hard to make people believe the City all of a sudden knows what they're doing because someone said so.

And there is a lot of anti-city sentiment at work here too. I wouldn't ascribe a lot of rationality to it.

 

You hit the nail on the head. People in Cincinnati simply hate downtown, whether it's because of a race issue or what...they simply want downtown to fail as if downtown failing somehow helps surrounding neighborhoods.

 

but doesn't like the streetcar plan because he's "sure that the city will find a way to screw it up, just like they screwed up by putting GABP on the river instead of in Broadway Commons, where it belongs."

 

 

We wouldn't even be talking about The Banks right now if the shared infrastructure of the stadia were not available to lift the riverfront out of the flood plain, something Cincinnatians have been trying to to do for 220 years.

 

You guys have to admit, Cincinnati has botched a lot of decisions regarding downtown for a long time. It's hard to make people believe the City all of a sudden knows what they're doing because someone said so.

 

Cincinnati isn't a person.  We have a new Mayor, a new City Manager and 8 of 9 new council members that weren't in charge when "those botched decisions" were made.

 

It would be like saying, because Bush botched a lot of decisions for a long time, there is no way Obama could know what he is doing

http://www.stimuluswatch.org/mediawiki/index.php/OH:Cincinnati:3393

 

That makes it easier to edit. I'm editing under "Seicer" there.

^some people aren't happy unless they're miserable. 

You guys have to admit, Cincinnati has botched a lot of decisions regarding downtown for a long time.  It's hard to make people believe the City all of a sudden knows what they're doing because someone said so.

 

I would argue decisions were botched because the past city leadership had their hands tied by the numerous special interest groups. The city leadership has only recently had the power to make the broad and sweeping changes needed to keep Cincinnati competitive with the rest of the US.

>You guys have to admit, Cincinnati has botched a lot of decisions regarding downtown for a long time.  It's hard to make people believe the City all of a sudden knows what they're doing because someone said so.

 

If downtown bashers actually had experience in other cities, they'd realize that every city has made development mistakes and some cities have been ruled by criminals like Marian Berry, Kwame Kilpatrick, or sleazy family dynasties like the Daileys.  Cincinnati opened itself to physical and cultural devastation by so enthusiastically inviting the competition created by the highway network, and city-haters will never be happy here as long as there isn't a beach and palm trees. 

http://www.stimuluswatch.org/mediawiki/index.php/OH:Cincinnati:3393

 

That makes it easier to edit. I'm editing under "Seicer" there.

 

Thanks! That looks great!

exactly

>You guys have to admit, Cincinnati has botched a lot of decisions regarding downtown for a long time. It's hard to make people believe the City all of a sudden knows what they're doing because someone said so.

 

If downtown bashers actually had experience in other cities, they'd realize that every city has made development mistakes and some cities have been ruled by criminals like Marian Berry, Kwame Kilpatrick, or sleazy family dynasties like the Daileys. Cincinnati opened itself to physical and cultural devastation by so enthusiastically inviting the competition created by the highway network, and city-haters will never be happy here as long as there isn't a beach and palm trees.

 

What about the Lukens and the P&G Pipeline, Simon Leis, Joe Deters, Uncle Phil...

>You guys have to admit, Cincinnati has botched a lot of decisions regarding downtown for a long time. It's hard to make people believe the City all of a sudden knows what they're doing because someone said so.

 

If downtown bashers actually had experience in other cities, they'd realize that every city has made development mistakes and some cities have been ruled by criminals like Marian Berry, Kwame Kilpatrick, or sleazy family dynasties like the Daileys. Cincinnati opened itself to physical and cultural devastation by so enthusiastically inviting the competition created by the highway network, and city-haters will never be happy here as long as there isn't a beach and palm trees.

 

What about the Lukens and the P&G Pipeline, Simon Leis, Joe Deters, Uncle Phil...

 

it is easy to complain and hate the city. 

 

some of us would rather work to make it better

Keep it on topic people, or more posts will be axed!

 

And yes, it is easy to complain about Cincinnati. Start your own thread if you wish to do so.

It's difficult to speak your mind as well.  The results speak for themselves, so as long as we're discussing conceptual projects, where do we go from here?  Is an Uptown station the best way to branch future service to other communities?

^You mean a light rail station?  I was under the impression that the streetcar would have stops, but no stations.