February 5, 200916 yr Since many on this board have followed this project for a long time and have a lot more knowledge than what is readily available, I have two questions regarding the streetcar and the economic stimulus: - Any idea why Mayor Mallory included $12M for a "Phase II Alignment Study" in his list of "shovel-ready" projects submitted to the local Congressional delegation? By definition an alignment study is not "shovel-ready". - Is it the City's intention to develop the streetcar outside of the federal approval process (i.e., NEPA and New Starts)? I had assumed that this was their approach, as it would allow them to proceed more quickly (no CE/EA/EIS) and because the project would likely end up behind a lot of other projects in the national funding priority list. As the legislation is currently written, the stimulus program will not include any waivers for these requirements. So why would the City want stimulus money? Assuming it is possible to bridge the current funding gap, I would think that it would be preferable to work that angle, as opposed to spending the next couple years in the NEPA/New Starts process.
February 6, 200916 yr its kinda crazy to think that this project will cost more than the triple C's rail project, even if the infrastructure is mostly in place already.
February 6, 200916 yr If you haven't checked the "stimulus watch" lately, I highly recommend you do so! Last time I checked, the "yes" vote was roughly 2:1. Now, the "no" vote took a HUGE spike over a short period of time. Not to mention that there's a lot of hyperbole and strong language for the "points against" section. I smell something fishy... or Smithery... http://www.stimuluswatch.org/project/view/3393
February 6, 200916 yr Wow, look how many Cincinnati projects are near the top of the "most critical" list: http://www.stimuluswatch.org/ajax/most_critical_projects Too bad the streetcar isn't there...yet.
February 6, 200916 yr We're getting beaten pretty badly over at StimulusWatch, only 44% approve and we're at -105. Also the most active project.
February 6, 200916 yr Kinda saw that coming! Every tax watchdog group in the country is probably circulating that website by now. Essentially, it really doesn't matter in the whole scheme of things. We need to keep this fight up more on a local level! If you notice, their are alot of transit projects getting dinged on that site. It was fun while it lasted, but unfortunately the politics of the entire stimulus issue are going to take precedence over the basic deprivation of transit in this country. It's sad, but it the nature of the beast!
February 6, 200916 yr What's strange about all of those. They don't produce many jobs. I think that was kind of the point to have the bill.
February 6, 200916 yr What's strange about all of those. They don't produce many jobs. I think that was kind of the point to have the bill. Yeah. To be honest, I think the stimulus bill as a job creator is going to fail, so on principle, I don't like it. On the other hand, this country is in desperate need of a transit refresh/overhaul, so I support the bill anyway. While I think it will fail in it's primary purpose, I view the positive infrastructure side effects as far more important anyway.
February 6, 200916 yr What's strange about all of those. They don't produce many jobs. I think that was kind of the point to have the bill. But there are also all the engineers, contractors, material suppliers that get work from these projects as well. I think only directly creating X number of new jobs is somewhat misleading. For development projects like the streetcar, it also doesn't include the renovation of buildings along the route, new business, etc.
February 6, 200916 yr ^ Projects like this will keep jobs, not create them. Similarly, I support parts of the bill because the country needs new infastructure badly. Architects and engineers are getting laid off or taking pay cuts everywhere right now, and a few massive infastructure projects will help to reverse that.
February 6, 200916 yr What's strange about all of those. They don't produce many jobs. I think that was kind of the point to have the bill. But there are also all the engineers, contractors, material suppliers that get work from these projects as well. I think only directly creating X number of new jobs is somewhat misleading. For development projects like the streetcar, it also doesn't include the renovation of buildings along the route, new business, etc. No, but we leave the redevelopment efforts to private enterprise, such as 3CDC. Walk along the proposed route, and see the numerous "For Sale/For Rent" signs -- they command higher prices than neighboring streets (especially in downtown), and advertised on some of the signs is: "Proposed Streetcar Route." The effect of higher prices has already started, but the damn line hasn't been constructed!!
February 6, 200916 yr ^ I dunno where the city got its info on job creation. Portland Streetcar figures its new projects are producing 26 jobs per $1 million invested. That would be about 4,800 jobs.
February 6, 200916 yr Author 4800 jobs at $42k a piece would be $4.2 million in additional income taxes for the city each year
February 6, 200916 yr And nevermind the increased property taxes from a revived OTR. If the streetcar eventually generated 10,000 middle-class residents (which I think is conservative given current and past populations) you're probably looking at close to $20 million in property taxes.
February 6, 200916 yr 10,000 new residents, half new to the city, earning an average of $50,000 per year times 2.1% earnings tax = $5,250,000 per year in new city earnings taxes plus the earnings taxes of the new businesses that will be formed there.
February 6, 200916 yr Minor caution against the recent tax generation math. Remember that 10,000 new residents come with lots of needs (other infrastructure, services, etc.) that must also be paid for out of that revenue. Don't get me wrong - I'm sure the streetcar results in a net positive in terms of the city budget, but I would caution against using such quick-and-dirty numbers in public to support the project. (Those calculations start to remind me of the ones that suburban politicians throw out to justify approving massive new subdivisions, without accounting for the fact that roads have to be upgraded and that (surprise!) the owners of those new 4 BR houses have kids that need to be educated.) As far as the job generation numbers, I would assume that they are only showing "direct" jobs (engineers, contractors, laborers, etc. required to physically build the infrastructure), not the indirect jobs (secondary real estate development, restaurant workers, etc.). In the case of the streetcar study, 100 FTE's seems about right ($50,000 salary x 2.5 overhead multiplier x 100 FTE = $12.5M). That should cover environmental/design costs for the project. I think others on the list have hit on it, but I would prefer that the stimulus target projects that will generate both short-term (the engineering/construction jobs required to build the project) and long-term job creation. Will fixing potholes actually draw new businesses/development to Cincinnati? I suppose that needs to be done, but as long as you're going drop $800B into the country, let's get some real transformation out of it.
February 6, 200916 yr Author Minor caution against the recent tax generation math. Remember that 10,000 new residents come with lots of needs (other infrastructure, services, etc.) that must also be paid for out of that revenue. That's true, but a lot of those services are already being provided (eg. you have to provide fire coverage to a building if it is vacant or full, you have to plow the streets regardless of how many vacancies)
February 6, 200916 yr Agreed - there are lots of economies of scale in service provision. That's one of the reasons why I'm sure that the project is a net benefit to the city budget. Just want to make sure folks don't start throwing around inflated numbers (like those highway planners like to do... [toungue partially in cheek]).
February 7, 200916 yr I think the city only asked for 12 million for the project to guarantee it gets funding.
February 7, 200916 yr For several years, the Alliance for Regional Transit has been leading Cincinnatians to Portland to inspect the robust rail systems there. Ask around -- you undoubtedly know several of the nearly 350 people who have made this trip. You may find it valuable to participate in the next streetcar tour of Portland, Oregon on February 27th. If you're someone who has aspirations for our city, you will be the eyes and ears for your colleagues, family and friends as we move toward a decision on the Cincinnati Streetcar. Most people will arrive on Thursday, February 26th. The formal tour begins at Noon on Friday and extends through a late dinner that night. I have rooms reserved in Portland's best hotel at the rate of $119 per night starting on Wednesday, February 25th through Saturday, February 28th. Portland's spring arrives about a month earlier than Cincinnati's. We've had some beautiful days on the February trips. And there's plenty to do in and around Portland before and after the tour. Delta made huge fare reductions on many of its routes today. You can probably get a $200 fare on Delta from Cincinnati to Portland if you book soon. Even if you already like the idea of the Cincinnati Streetcar, you'll likely return to Cincinnati more confident of your judgment and armed with facts and experiences to share with others. Truth be told, Portland was not always such a great place, and you will learn how this Cincinnati-sized city has reconfigured itself for growth. Here are some pics from previous tours: http://www.pro-transit.com/PICS/ Please write to [email protected], and I'll send more details. Thanks for considering it.
February 7, 200916 yr I thoguht I remember reading that the City was goingt to interview the vendors for the streetcar this past week. Does anybody know when Dohoney is going to update Coucil on the results and next steps?
February 8, 200916 yr Tangentially related: Does anyone know how to make cool logos like the one Cincinnati blogs use to show their support for the Cincinnati streetcar or something like this: Muchos gracias.
February 8, 200916 yr Most of the Cincinnati blogs already have a logo similar to that in support of the streetcar.
February 8, 200916 yr Tangentially related: Does anyone know how to make cool logos like the one Cincinnati blogs use to show their support for the Cincinnati streetcar or something like this: Muchos gracias. Here's the link to the code for the blog logo: http://www.cincystreetcar.com/support.html It looks like this: <a href="http://www.cincystreetcar.com/index.html" target="new"><img src="http://cincystreetcar.com/Images/BlogSupport_CincyStreetcar.jpg" alt="Support the Cincinnati Streetcar" /></a>
February 9, 200916 yr I have two questions regarding the streetcar and the economic stimulus: - Any idea why Mayor Mallory included $12M for a "Phase II Alignment Study" in his list of "shovel-ready" projects submitted to the local Congressional delegation? By definition an alignment study is not "shovel-ready". - Is it the City's intention to develop the streetcar outside of the federal approval process (i.e., NEPA and New Starts)? I had assumed that this was their approach, as it would allow them to proceed more quickly (no CE/EA/EIS) and because the project would likely end up behind a lot of other projects in the national funding priority list. As the legislation is currently written, the stimulus program will not include any waivers for these requirements. So why would the City want stimulus money? Assuming it is possible to bridge the current funding gap, I would think that it would be preferable to work that angle, as opposed to spending the next couple years in the NEPA/New Starts process. I copied these questions and sent them to City Manager Dohoney. Here is his response... Relative to the first question, we included the study in the event there is a more expansive concept of “shovel-ready” projects. There has been consideration in the Senate for some project funding for work that is a bit longer term that would keep, engineers, architects, and other professionals employed and in the work force. We have also had suggestions that some state funding may be freed up to advance design and engineering on future planned projects. We will not know what the final rules and guidance are until the bill is reconciled in conference committee and passed by both bodies. Relative to the second question, we intend to use local funds for the first phase of design and construction. Federal funds would be reserved for the second phase, and later phases, of design and construction. We were hoping that the Bill would offer some relief on the federal requirements so that a larger pool of projects, not just the streetcar project, could be eligible for funding.
February 9, 200916 yr Wow, what a delightfully candid response. It's too bad all politicians can't be so forthright.
February 9, 200916 yr Yeah, I guess it's debatable whether City Manager is a political office or not. It's an appointed position, correct? So I suppose it isn't. I enjoy Dohoney's candor regardless.
February 9, 200916 yr Yeah, I guess it's debatable whether City Manager is a political office or not. It's an appointed position, correct? So I suppose it isn't. I enjoy Dohoney's candor regardless. It's my understanding that the City Manager serves at the pleasure of the Mayor.
February 10, 200916 yr The Center for sustainable Urban Environments of UC is sponsoring a debate between a proponent (John Schneider) and an opponent (Jason Haap) of the proposal to operate an electric streetcar loop from the Cincinnati riverfront, through Over-the-Rhine, and to the Uptown (UC) area. Each speaker will be allocated 20 minutes for initial remarks, followed by selected written questions from the audience in a debate format. This is the first public debate about the streetcar proposal. Urban Transportation Debate: Cincinnati Streetcar Proposal Thursday, February 12, 2009 - 4pm 500 Swift Hall - UC West Campus
February 10, 200916 yr The Center for sustainable Urban Environments of UC is sponsoring a debate between a proponent (John Schneider) and an opponent (Jason Haap) of the proposal to operate an electric streetcar loop from the Cincinnati riverfront, through Over-the-Rhine, and to the Uptown (UC) area. Each speaker will be allocated 20 minutes for initial remarks, followed by selected written questions from the audience in a debate format. This is the first public debate about the streetcar proposal. Urban Transportation Debate: Cincinnati Streetcar Proposal Thursday, February 12, 2009 - 4pm 500 Swift Hall - UC West Campus What a great idea. Anyone know if the local news will be invited to this? I expect that John will do quite well, and would love to see a story about this in The Enquirer.
February 10, 200916 yr The Center for sustainable Urban Environments of UC is sponsoring a debate between a proponent (John Schneider) and an opponent (Jason Haap) of the proposal to operate an electric streetcar loop from the Cincinnati riverfront, through Over-the-Rhine, and to the Uptown (UC) area. Each speaker will be allocated 20 minutes for initial remarks, followed by selected written questions from the audience in a debate format. This is the first public debate about the streetcar proposal. Urban Transportation Debate: Cincinnati Streetcar Proposal Thursday, February 12, 2009 - 4pm 500 Swift Hall - UC West Campus What a great idea. Anyone know if the local news will be invited to this? I expect that John will do quite well, and would love to see a story about this in The Enquirer. I just found out about this from Randy. I'm trying to get permission to record this and play it back on my radio show this Friday, as well as possibly filming it.
February 10, 200916 yr ^I would be interested in hearing this. I won't be able to attend this, sadly.
February 10, 200916 yr John, good luck. If The Dean brings the same blistering wit that he brought to Jeffre's council campaign then you should be good to go. Wish I could attend. Somebody PLEASE record this!
February 10, 200916 yr 500 Swift is SMALL. It is going to be a cramped room if a lot of people show up.
February 10, 200916 yr The Center for sustainable Urban Environments of UC is sponsoring a debate between a proponent (John Schneider) and an opponent (Jason Haap) of the proposal to operate an electric streetcar loop from the Cincinnati riverfront, through Over-the-Rhine, and to the Uptown (UC) area. Each speaker will be allocated 20 minutes for initial remarks, followed by selected written questions from the audience in a debate format. This is the first public debate about the streetcar proposal. Urban Transportation Debate: Cincinnati Streetcar Proposal Thursday, February 12, 2009 - 4pm 500 Swift Hall - UC West Campus OH SNAP!!!
February 11, 200916 yr I'm sorry I'll miss this. Jason Haap seems to be an idiot from what I can tell, so this should be entertaining.
February 13, 200916 yr NAACP: Anti-Streetcar Petitions Tomorrow Posted by JanePrendergast at 2/12/2009 3:42 PM EST Christopher Smitherman, president of the Cincinnati branch of the NAACP, announces today that the NAACP will take some of its signed petitions Friday to the Hamilton County Board of Elections to start the process of getting onto the November ballot. The group wants voters to be able to decide if the city can spend money on a streetcar. He didn't include how many signatures they already have collected, but wrote in an e-mail that the group is confident it will hit its goal of 6,300 names of registered voters. His release: "The Cincinnati NAACP will begin the pre-check process on the streetcar petition at the Hamilton County Board of Elections tomorrow Friday, February 13, 2009. The Hamilton County Board of Election staff appreciates a gradual submission of signatures so their office staff is not overwhelmed at the last minute. The Cincinnati NAACP remains confident that it will collect the needed signatures to place the streetcar issue on the ballot for the November 2009 election. " Our organization finds it amazing that the Mayor and Council would move forward with a $12 million request of President Obama for a streetcar knowing the Cincinnati NAACP is collecting signatures to place the issue on the ballot" President Smitherman says. The Cincinnati NAACP has collected signatures in the "dead of winter" which underscores the organizations commitment and citizens desire to vote on a $200 million expenditure of tax payer dollars. The organization will continue to collect signatures throughout the spring and summer until it reaches its goal of 6,300. The Cincinnati NAACP is exercising its American right to petition the government and request a vote. There is nothing more American. Smitherman says, " 500,000 citizens across this country are losing their jobs every month. However, City Council and the Mayor want to spend precious tax dollars on a pet project called a "choo-choo train" instead of focusing on citizens who continue to lose their homes, health care, and savings."
February 13, 200916 yr Would this be a cincinnati resident only vote? or Hamilton county resident vote?
February 13, 200916 yr Here are photos from the debate. Anyone who wants to copy these for their blogs has my permission to do so. Jason Haap: Jason Haap: John Schneider: John Schneider: Moderator: Faces in the crowd: This guy probably didn't buy these glasses in Cincinnati:
February 13, 200916 yr Couple observations... [*]Jason Haap is wearing plaid [*]Jason Haap makes awkward faces [*]John Schneider looks "experienced" [*]The yellow background is terrible [*]That guy in the suit, in the crowd shot, must be a big deal [*]Those eye glasses are awesome
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