I do not speak for the Green party, but I fail to see why improved mass transit with a mind towards lower emissions is a bad idea.

 

I assume this is responding to my question.  If not, I apologize. 

 

I don't think anyone would argue that improved mass transit "with a mind towards lower emissions" is a bad idea.  I was just trying to get at the rational underpinning for the opposition in this case.  Maybe I can put my question another way:  If faced with a concept that will improve mass transit, but will slightly increase emissions, will the Green Party oppose that concept because of the increased emissions?  Or, understanding that you don't speak for the Green Party, would you oppose something on that basis? 

 

 

Cincinnatus, I have had similar problems with the 24 and so have avoided it for a year, despite it being the closest bus to my apartment.  I typically ride the 78 downtown instead. 

 

Here is a photo from a bus "derailment" a few weeks ago...but the salient issue here is that there was a metro bus at the corner of Euclid & Charleton -- there is no route service on either of those streets.  So this bus derailed even before it ended up in someone's front yard. 

 

 

 

 

I had the #18 bus derail on me once in Columbus when I temped out in Dublin.  I went to the stop to catch the 10~pm bus (the last one of the night) back to OSU like usual, and in the distance saw it skip past the office park on the main drag.  I never saw anyone but myself catching that that last bus, so that driver decided to derail that night, not thinking anyone would be there.  The only way something on tracks could do that is if they literally didn't stop at the stop, but they certainly wouldn't have the option of simply avoiding a pesky part of their route.  BTW the weather was nice so I walked the 11 miles back to OSU.

 

 

So, how are the operating costs for streetcar being subsidized?  Where is the money coming from?

 

Changing the route due to ice is better than just shutting down the system.  Portland's system is sometimes just shut down in the Winter.

 

You must have missed this post: http://cincystreetcar.wordpress.com/2009/01/30/digging-out/

 

 

Cincinnatus, stories like that are exactly why I don't bother taking the bus (except fo the SouthBank shuttle because it comes every 15 minutes and the route never changes).

 

I do not speak for the Green party, but I fail to see why improved mass transit with a mind towards lower emissions is a bad idea.

 

I'd argue that adding more buses is not "improved mass transit".  The streetcar is the beginning of something new, allowing people to live without cars in the urban core and hopefully opening the door for light rail to tie in the suburbs and take even more cars off the road.  While you've got a point about coal burning, fighting rail in Cincinnati just keeps people chained to automobiles, which is not progress.  If you really want to lower emissions, your efforts would be better directed by supporting the streetcar plan, but pushing for a greener method of powering it on day one. 

So, how are the operating costs for streetcar being subsidized? Where is the money coming from?

 

 

Are you asking about Portland or Cincinnati?  If you're asking about Cincinnati, the streetcar is not actually up and running.  And I don't believe that the specifics of the operation of the proposed system have been laid out yet in a way that would answer your question.  I could be wrong about that. 

OK.  Someone got a picture of a bus with snow trouble.  Great.  They could send out another bus.  What about when a streetcar gets stuck?

 

 

Also, closed circuit tire trolleys would be part of "improved mass transit."  We do not have intracity closed downtown circuits like that, so it would be an "improvement."  If it has less emissions, it is an environmentally friendly improvement.  If it saves money, it is an economic improvement.  And, if it has the flexibility to meet people where they are, taking them where they need to be, over time as trends change, then it is a social improvement.

Also, while we're having fun with photos, here are some more:

 

 

 

 

I primarily object to Schneider's slideshow because I don't believe in argument by photography.  If you found this post irritating, you now understand my point.

I almost posted the picture of an accident with a streetcar that caused a death, but perhaps just a direct link would have more taste:

 

http://www.citynews.ca/news/news_24238.aspx

I did find that post irritating, and I will never understand your point.

 

You say that Cincinnati is not dense enough to support a streetcar? It may be at the low end, but it's proven that investment follows the streetcar. The streetcar system will act as a catalyst to revitalize and repopulate downtown and uptown, and eventually can be connected with a regional system of additional streetcars and light rail. Cincinnati was developed and populated with a street car system in mind.

 

Your opposition just entrenches this city in it's car-dependent ways. How long is it going to take before someone like you will come around? Until we're the last major urban area to not have any sort of rail transit? Until we're sprawled to hell and back?

 

Bottom line is streetcars and light rail promote dense development. More people use the same infrastructure, and some of them can even go without a car.

 

If you can't see past the coal burning, and refuse to embrace the bigger picture then we're all just spinning our wheels talking about this.

 

 

BTW if I ever see you riding a streetcar in Cincinnati after the system goes in I'll make sure to bring all of this back up.

Your point holds no weight as any means of transportation can and do cause accidents.  When there is snow fixed rail transit fare better than any other means of transportation hands down.  We could post pictures, or not post pictures.  Any way you shake it though fixed rail transit is the better alternative in this regard.

I guess I'm new coming into this thread but what's the big deal if streetcars have problems in the snow. EL trains have fallen off the tracks in Chicago due to inclement whether.  I couldn't even move my car from the street about 35 times this year because of snow.  Streetcar gets stuck?  They dig it out.

Yea, I found your post irritating as well dean.  We all know mass transit is by far and away safer than auto-oriented transit. 

 

What you did is post a few pictures saying something else.  Its like taking a picture of an airplane crash and saying its less safe than driving.  If someone shows pictures of car crashes and says its more dangerous than flying, they have a point and are validated by showing pictures of such an event by facts. 

 

In this case, John S. was showing pictures of a phenomena that is backed up by facts and case studies, making his showing the pictures valid.  You are showing pictures of circumstance.  So you are not valid. 

I almost posted the picture of an accident with a streetcar that caused a death, but perhaps just a direct link would have more taste:

 

http://www.citynews.ca/news/news_24238.aspx

 

I can understand posting pictures of streetcars in the snow.  But bringing up stories on deaths?  Like Metro buses don't cause serious accidents, or deaths?  How does that in any way support your argument?   

If the cincinnati streetcar ever got stuck, I would gladly walk over to it and help shovel it out. I may even contibute some brine.  I would never help out a bus like that.  That's what is so great about streetcars, they are so lovable.

Changing the route due to ice is better than just shutting down the system. Portland's system is sometimes just shut down in the Winter.

 

 

Again, the roads were very clear.

 

How often is Portland's system shut down during the winter? Are entire routes changed without notice?

 

 

 

jmeck, were you a couple of blocks away from the Metro hitting that 14 year old on 6th St.? Without looking, I'm pretty sure there have been 3 accidents with Metro and pedestrians in DT alone within the past year.

I'm pretty sure a 100 million dollar streetcar system route would have priority and have it's own force for streetcleaning and snow removal than a typical bus route would. 

 

 

jmeck, were you a couple of blocks away from the Metro hitting that 14 year old on 6th St.?

  That was a large southbank bus. My wife, Son and I were almost run over at race & 6th a week earlier. The Bus had to back up after it went too fast around the corner to try and outrun us in the crosswalk.

Are you asking about Portland or Cincinnati?  If you're asking about Cincinnati, the streetcar is not actually up and running.  And I don't believe that the specifics of the operation of the proposed system have been laid out yet in a way that would answer your question.  I could be wrong about that.

 

I'm asking about Cincinnati. 

 

I hope you are wrong that they havn't figured out how to fund the operation because proposing to build a system and not having some sort of revenue in place, or even a plan to have a revenue stream in place (beyond fares) to subsidize operations is ...well...incredible, really.

 

I've asked this question repeatedly now and neither the proponents nor opponents can answer it.  What gives?

 

 

 

 

Dean - I enjoyed your post accusing the UC radio DJs of being biased.  I'm so glad you brought this up, as it gives us yet another pro-streetcar point.  Students and young people LIKE streetcars (gasp!)!  What a wonderful thing it would be for young people to WANTto live here because of the streetcar. 

 

UC (and XU and NKU, for that matter) bring in many students from outside the region.  Wouldn't it be wonderful that they stick around upon graduation after being exposed to our city?  If they live here and enjoy a true urban experience (which is absolutely contingent upon a car-free lifestyle), perhaps they would be less inclined to move to cities like Chicago or DC.  To me, the environmental concerns are a wash.  The true argument here is that providing a true urban lifestyle will attract residents = increased tax base = economic development, (and so on and so forth).

 

I'd be interested to see your response on this, and why you think that it's so terrible for young people (who we're so desperately trying to attract) to like the streetcar.

 

By the way, I was at the debate, and wondered to myself why you were so ill-prepared.  It seemed as though your response to many of John's points were "I don't know!  More research needs to be done!"  The fact is, the research has been done, and to report otherwise is irresponsible and a slap in the face to audience members who took time out of their day (took off work to get there at 4:00) to see an intelligent debate, yet seemed to be more informed of the subject matter than you were.

If the cincinnati streetcar ever got stuck, I would gladly walk over to it and help shovel it out

 

That reminds me when I heard Chris Bortz on the Buzz, saying to save money he and some friends would get a pick up truck to remove all the bus stop benches with ads.  Yeah, right.  Let's get real.  If you would help dig out your neighbors relying on streetcar mass transit, while not helping a bus (just snapping photos, perhaps, to make a point later), then that shows more about you than anything.

 

I'm pretty sure a 100 million dollar streetcar system route would have priority and have it's own force for streetcleaning and snow removal than a typical bus route would.

 

Really?  What's that add to the yearly operating costs?

 

I can understand posting pictures of streetcars in the snow.  But bringing up stories on deaths?  Like Metro buses don't cause serious accidents, or deaths?  How does that in any way support your argument? 

 

The driver said he couldn't swerve.  That was why I posted it.

 

Your opposition just entrenches this city in it's car-dependent ways. How long is it going to take before someone like you will come around?

 

I don't speak for a coalition.  I have said I support improved mass transit.  That's why I support a painted line bio-fuel tire trolley on downtown closed circuits.  Why do you pretend I have not said that repeatedly, in a variety of places?

 

BTW if I ever see you riding a streetcar in Cincinnati after the system goes in I'll make sure to bring all of this back up.

 

That does not even make sense.  You are showing yourself as petty and vindictive.

By the way, I was at the debate, and wondered to myself why you were so ill-prepared.  It seemed as though your response to many of John's points were "I don't know!  More research needs to be done!"  The fact is, the research has been done, and to report otherwise is irresponsible and a slap in the face to audience members who took time out of their day (took off work to get there at 4:00) to see an intelligent debate, yet seemed to be more informed of the subject matter than you were.

 

You are taking most of my phrases out of context.  If I say, for example, that I don't know why people won't ride something that goes from where they are, to where they need to be -- that is not because I did not research; rather, it is because I am using logical reasoning to indicate that there is no good reason to think what the advocates think.  It is illogical.  It is unknowable! 

 

Schneider was unprepared, for example, to discuss CO2 emissions of BTUs per passenger mile for both coal and gas.  I presented a logical argument.  However, your mind is already made up.  There is nothing we can say to persuade you. 

 

Concidentally, I had a few people talk to me after the debate.  They said they still support streetcars, but that I won the debate.  Whatever. 

 

Wouldn't it be wonderful that they stick around upon graduation after being exposed to our city?  If they live here and enjoy a true urban experience (which is absolutely contingent upon a car-free lifestyle), perhaps they would be less inclined to move to cities like Chicago or DC. 

 

A tire trolley service with closed circuit downtown loops would provide for this need. 

 

Why the prejudice against tires?  According to two people who talked to me after the event (streetcar advocates), they said it is because poor people ride buses.

 

Do you agree with this classism and racism?  Should tax dollar subsidize such snobbery?

Does anyone else feel like Haap really doesn't believe all he is saying?  Maybe it's just me, but I get the feeling that given his self-stated "pro-transit" stance, his seemingly-genuine desire for the city to succeed, and care for energy efficiency, that he would really be pro-streetcar.

 

Think about it.  Was he REALLY the best person to debate John?  Does he have any sort of political capital?  What does he stand to gain by voicing his opposition?  Perhaps website traffic and subscriptions?  I don't know about the rest of you, but since the debate, I've gone to his website for the first few times.  Frankly, prior to the debate, I've never heard of the guy.

 

Just a thought...

No one else felt like walking into a room of streetcar advocates to debate in an environment of people who mostly already have their minds made up, only to have UC replay the event with their spin.

 

However, I think a point to this petition drive is to foster open discussion and debate.  So I agreed.  Instead of criticizng me for taking time from my life to come, perhaps you should find out why Jim Uber invited me.  It's not like I muscled my way in, or something.

Think about it.  Was he REALLY the best person to debate John?  Does he have any sort of political capital?  What does he stand to gain by voicing his opposition?  Perhaps website traffic and subscriptions?  I don't know about the rest of you, but since the debate, I've gone to his website for the first few times.  Frankly, prior to the debate, I've never heard of the guy.

 

I never heard of you till just now, either.  It seems clear, however, that most of your are John Schneider fans.  So you love what he says.  There is no changing it.  You love his slideshow.  I'll go out on a limb and guess you don't want to see pictures of homeless people and their pit bulls squatting on the Portland Streetcar.

 

http://www.cincinnatibeacon.com/index.php/contents/comments/drop_inn_or_the_streetcar/

 

 

 

The only thing that is petty and vindictive is you going against every good idea this city has ever had.  Need I remind you about your hilariously awful and embarassing Youtube videos protesting 3CDC and their rennovation of Fountain Square?

 

You can parade around with the Green Party cloak around your shoulders all you want, and talk all about how you are for mass transit and want to see this city succeed. But when it comes time to support various proposals to do so you are always on the wrong side.

 

You insult my intelligence.

More vindictive writing from a streetcar advocate.  I wonder if the moderators will delete your comment.

 

The truth is that the public STILL does not know the full details of lost revenue from that boondoggle.  The fact that you might like movie night, or the jumbotron, or the new square, has nothing to do with HOW we got to that point -- and further if that was the best way to do it.  Do people like the programming?  Fine.  Is the best way to provide it by forfeiting all that money to a private corporation so they could jack up parking rates and capture them as additional revenue during their own events?  I don't know about that.

 

(I'm sure someone will take that "I don't know" and tell me I should have done my research.  What a joke!)

Also, if not for my YouTube videos at FSQ, 3CDC would have never made the garage, and the square, more handicapped accessible.  Our work on that was a benefit to the whole City.  (You're welcome.)

 

 

Frankly, prior to the debate, I've never heard of the guy.

 

I had heard that he was just smithermans mouthpiece.

 

 

Dean, you say that you view the ballot initiative as "fostering debate."  How so?

 

And would you support an initiative that required, say, an affirmative vote from the electorate before funds can be spent on a neighborhood?

jmd00,

 

If not for the petition drive, there would be no need to "convince" anyone one way or another.  The petition has raised the very real possibility that this goes on the ballot.  Only with broad community support will it pass.  (It should have broad community support anyway.)  Before I can ask your other question, tell me the dollar amounts involved, and on what it will be spent.

 

I had heard that he was just smithermans mouthpiece.

 

I'd tell you what I heard of you, but I'm trying to keep this civil.

 

 

 

I never heard of you till just now, either.  It seems clear, however, that most of your are John Schneider fans.  So you love what he says.  There is no changing it.  You love his slideshow.  I'll go out on a limb and guess you don't want to see pictures of homeless people and their pit bulls squatting on the Portland Streetcar.

 

I do like his slideshow because it's an accurate and true representation of the streetcar experience (I know - I've been), which is very important to relay to the audience.  Before you continue to criticize it, I suggest you go and get an opportunity to see why streetcar advocates are so zealous about promoting it, and why we want it so badly here.  Are you afraid that if you go, you'll be converted?  Hmmm...

 

As for your slideshow.  First, pit bulls are illegal in the city, so it probably wouldn't be on there.  And if he paid to be on the streetcar like everyone else, he deserves to ride the thing.  Part of the reason for the streetcar (which goodness knows why you and your buddy Smitherman can't understand this) is to provide cheap public transit.

 

And you DO know that 3CDC put up $38M for the square right?  And the city put up $4M, right (which was a fraction of the amount it would have cost to repair the garage ONLY)?  And what we ended up with was a drastically improved, welcome square that spurred tens of millions of economic activity and immesurable vibrance.  Sounds like a boondoggle to me! 

 

And as for parking, I can park there for $4 flat on nights and weekends, in the safest, cleanest, easiest and best-run garage in the city.  Probably should have done your research.  Not a joke.

Read the link.  It is about one of many homeless people who ride the streetcar for free to get heat in the Winter.  With his pit bull.

 

I know all about the 3CDC deal.  Do you?  Can you tell me the projected lost revenue from the parking garage over the terms of the 30-40 year loan?  Can you tell me how much the City still pays yearly to upkeep the garage from which they see no income?

 

As for renovation, all they did to the garage was slap up some paint and some lights.  And made it so you pay a machine instead.  It's the same garage.  Same layout.  If anything, less people work there.  Four bucks, huh?  What were the old rates, anyway?

jmd00,

I had heard that he was just smithermans mouthpiece.

 

I'd tell you what I heard of you, but I'm trying to keep this civil.

 

Zing.

Read the link.  It is about one of many homeless people who ride the streetcar for free to get heat in the Winter.  With his pit bull.

 

I know all about the 3CDC deal.  Do you?  Can you tell me the projected lost revenue from the parking garage over the terms of the 30-40 year loan?  Can you tell me how much the City still pays yearly to upkeep the garage from which they see no income?

 

As for renovation, all they did to the garage was slap up some paint and some lights.  And made it so you pay a machine instead.  It's the same garage.  Same layout.  If anything, less people work there.  Four bucks, huh?  What were the old rates, anyway?

 

I'm not sure where the whole homeless person anecdote is going...

 

What does the projected lost revenue have to do with anything?  The city doesn't take that loss, 3CDC does.  They pay $500,000, what they always paid - 3CDC covers everything beyond that.  And 3CDC gave the city $7.5M for the revenue rights.

 

Paint and lights were badly needed.  So was the security system, waterproofing, elevator renovation and payment system.  The restaurant, added retail, square redesign, fountain restoration were all added bonuses I guess.

 

Most probably couldn't tell ya what the old rates were... they never had much of a reason to park there until all the new entertainment and cultural venues went up.  Those that did park under the old rates (if there was an increase) realize the cost is offset by the benefits renovation.  But either way, $.50 an hour seems like a steal to me.

^ OK, one more time for The Dean: if the Cincinnati Streetcar were to use all-renewable power -- wind power, say -- it would raise its annual operating cost about one percent. The streetcar doesn't use much power, given the fact it will move over a million people a year. It is inherently efficient.

 

He has poisoned the well here.

I'm just wondering where the money is going to come from to subsidize operating costs.  I know there will be money brought in via fares but in nearly every public transit system there is some subsidy.

 

Where is the annual operating subsidy going to come from?

 

 

Are you asking about Portland or Cincinnati?  If you're asking about Cincinnati, the streetcar is not actually up and running.  And I don't believe that the specifics of the operation of the proposed system have been laid out yet in a way that would answer your question.  I could be wrong about that.

 

I'm asking about Cincinnati. 

 

I hope you are wrong that they havn't figured out how to fund the operation because proposing to build a system and not having some sort of revenue in place, or even a plan to have a revenue stream in place (beyond fares) to subsidize operations is ...well...incredible, really.

 

I've asked this question repeatedly now and neither the proponents nor opponents can answer it.  What gives?

 

 

It's like jdm said. They just aren't there in the process yet. The RFQs were to design, build, and operate the streetcar, so those costs and how to pay for them are not finalized.

dean, how do you respond to the development impacts of a fixed rail system over a rubber tire system?

 

thanks for coming here to provide an opposing view. though i wish both sides would avoid potshots.

OK, so this is pretty preliminary. 

 

One of the reasons Im asking is that this is starting to be an issue (putting in a streetcar, that is) and I was curious as to how this was working in Cincinnati. 

 

 

Also, if not for my YouTube videos at FSQ, 3CDC would have never made the garage, and the square, more handicapped accessible.  Our work on that was a benefit to the whole City.  (You're welcome.)

 

If you actually care about accessibility for the disabled, that's yet another reason why you should support streetcars and not more buses.  Buses have steps and the disabled must ask if they can be "accommodated", which requires the bus to lower or a platform to rise, and often people need to be shuffled around inside to free up specific seats.  On a streetcar, there's a handicap symbol that you can press getting on or off that activates a tiny ramp.  It takes no longer for them to board than anyone else and they don't have to ask permission to ride the system.  Score one for human dignity.

I'm just wondering where the money is going to come from to subsidize operating costs. I know there will be money brought in via fares but in nearly every public transit system there is some subsidy.

 

Where is the annual operating subsidy going to come from?

 

They're working on that.  I'm sure that this kind of information will be available before the go ahead is officially given.  Right now, they're still in the planning stage.  They won't have a fully built system and then decide that they need to scrape operating costs together.

OK, so this is pretty preliminary. 

 

One of the reasons Im asking is that this is starting to be an issue (putting in a streetcar, that is) and I was curious as to how this was working in Cincinnati. 

 

Understandable, there's been a lot of talk on here about different possibilities about funding mechanisms (though you might have to dig back a ways to find them) but I don't think there has been any official possibilities from the people that matter.

The only reason I support a streetcar over a trolley is the physical infrastructure.  A fixed-line streetcar is a solid physical manifestation of an investment.  Just as development follows a highway through the country, development would follow a fixed rail through the city. 

Read the link.  It is about one of many homeless people who ride the streetcar for free to get heat in the Winter.  With his pit bull.

 

So you're worried about one guy and a dog?  My grandfather used to tell me stories about how people in Cincinnati would pay to ride the old streetcars on hot days (before air conditioning), just to feel the breeze as they ride around town.  How is that any different?  As long as someone pays the fare and isn't causing trouble, they should be allowed to ride on a transit system.  Your example is a better argument for not having a "fareless square" like Portland than it is for not building a streetcar.

 

Just out of curiosity, have you been to Portland, or are you just basing this on articles you've read?  I say this because for the last 3 years my office has had me spending half of my time there and half of my time here.  While I have noticed the occasional person who appears to be homeless, they are by far the exception.  The streetcar is usually filled with young professionals, tourists, people with bikes, and the disabled.  I've rarely seen it empty, but have often had to squeeze in.  Also, when I'm in Cincinnati, I pretty much have to drive everywhere because our mass transit system is so poor.  When I'm in Portland, I park my company issued car and usually don't get back in it until it's time to turn it back in.  Their transit system is amazing and is something that I would hope to see self-professed members of the Green Party try to emulate.

^ OK, one more time for The Dean: if the Cincinnati Streetcar were to use all-renewable power -- wind power, say -- it would raise its annual operating cost about one percent. The streetcar doesn't use much power, given the fact it will move over a million people a year. It is inherently efficient.

 

He has poisoned the well here.

 

There is no poison here.  You say "if."  Well, that "if" is not reality.  Nor does it appear to be anytime soon.

dean, how do you respond to the development impacts of a fixed rail system over a rubber tire system?

 

thanks for coming here to provide an opposing view. though i wish both sides would avoid potshots.

 

I don't think anyone can show me development near a streetcar that was not also caused by massive government subsidies.  Given their presence, one cannot attribute causality to the streetcar.  If anything, it indicates that massive subsidies spur development.

Also, if not for my YouTube videos at FSQ, 3CDC would have never made the garage, and the square, more handicapped accessible. Our work on that was a benefit to the whole City. (You're welcome.)

 

If you actually care about accessibility for the disabled, that's yet another reason why you should support streetcars and not more buses. Buses have steps and the disabled must ask if they can be "accomodated", which requires the bus to lower or a platform to rise, and often people need to be shuffled around inside to free up specific seats. On a streetcar, there's a handicap symbol that you can press getting on or off that activates a tiny ramp. It takes no longer for them to board than anyone else and they don't have to ask permission to ride the system. Score one for human diginity.

 

It is my understanding that the newer buses are built to accommodate wheelchairs.  They don't have steps, include ramps, and can actually lower themselves while stopped.

^ OK, one more time for The Dean: if the Cincinnati Streetcar were to use all-renewable power -- wind power, say -- it would raise its annual operating cost about one percent. The streetcar doesn't use much power, given the fact it will move over a million people a year. It is inherently efficient.

 

He has poisoned the well here.

 

There is no poison here.  You say "if."  Well, that "if" is not reality.  Nor does it appear to be anytime soon.

 

You ignore the proposition: Should the streetcar be built, it will move millions of people per year and thus be more efficient than the bus.