February 16, 200916 yr It is not a ridiculous question. When Chris Bortz went before OKI, he said the streetcar is "not a transit plan." He called it a "development plan," and characterized it as NOT a transit plan. So, I think the streetcar advocates need to make a decision about what kind of plan this is. It is clearly not mass transit. It is a circulator, at last in its current incarnation. If expanded all the way through three phases to the zoo, it would cover 8 miles. That said, however, it is certainly the first step in what could be a mass transit system. Maybe if we took the 800 million dollars that the Dean's comrade Chris Smitherman wants to spend on widening I-75, add it to the current proposal, then we really would have some semblance of mass transit. If we're going to govern by ballot box, why doesn't the Dean put the I-75 widening project on the ballot as well? Incidentally, the whole subsidies argument is a weak red herring designed to muddle the issue. Do we really want to go down that road? If so, what are the subsidies for the beloved bio-fuels which will supposedly supply the fuel for these imaginary trolley trucks? Like I said, it's a red herring. To bypass it, assume the trolley-trucks and streetcars both have available the same economic subsidies. Which will spur more economic development? If the Dean has read the studies, then he knows the answer to this question. You are not making any sense. Why would you talk about subsidies to the bio-fuel industry? I have said nothing about King Coal and his massive government subsidies. I also have not said the streetcar itself (or the trolleys themselves) are subsidized. I'm talking about the development that happens near the route. Get it? not sure who isn't getting it. If you are concerned about development subsidies along streetcar routes, then maybe you should put that to a vote as well. Your debate seems to be getting pretty far afield. If you want to talk about the efficacy of government subsidies, then pretty bio-fuels are fair game. Like I said, you've gone off on a tangent that seems more designed to obfuscate than make a point. Why not get it back to streetcars? As I have repeatedly stated, let me keep it simple for you, assume the eco development subsidies for streetcars and trolley trucks are equal. What will generate greater economic development? The streetcars or your beloved trolley trucks (on bio-fuels of course)? If you have done your homework assignment for today (I suspect not) then you would know the answer. By the way, when are you going to repudiate your comrade Smitherman's demand to widen 8 miles of I-75 at the cost of 800 millions as opposed to the streetcar route (phases I through III)? Seems kind of at odds with your goals of economic, environmental and social sustainability? Yet neither you nor Justic has chosen to disavow or repudiate Smitherman, despite...oh, what....10 requests on my part today to do so? Stay tuned for Tuesday's Soapbox for request #11. What should happen to I-75 in your view? (Just a simple question - don't read more to it than is here...)
February 16, 200916 yr The economic development argument is being used for the Dayton streetcar too. Im not really clear on how that would work aside from making land along the line maybe more accessible via transit since streetcars stop often and have short headways. Of course you could do this with a bus, but the public seems to prefer using rail transit to busses for some reason. This is one of the big selling points, the pyschological preference of riders for rail vs bus It's not rational (one should be the same as the other) but it is real. While I agree that there is a psychological mystique to rail that buses just don't have, there are definitely some tangible benefits of streetcars over buses to consider: 1. less noise 2. easier to access by the disabled 3. easier for everyone to board (no steps) 4. less pollution (fumes on street level) 5. more comfortable ride 6. the route is fixed and reliable 7. buses are notoriously off schedule 8. bike riders can hop on with their bikes, as opposed to stopping a bus, mounting to the front, etc Thats not what I'm saying, and you know it. If you want to discuss, fine. If you want to be insulting, so be it. There are no guarantees that a massive section of urban core will be redeveloped. True, but there are no guarantees in this life. The best we can do is study the problem, propose a solution, study the proposal, and proceed accordingly. Three of those four steps have already been done, and the analysis predicts at 14:1 ratio of return on investment with the streetcar plan. The only step left is to decide how we proceed. We can build the streetcar, we can do nothing, or we can go with an alternative like more buses. I personally want to go with the streetcar, as the studies (and my personal experience) indicate that this plan would be successful.
February 16, 200916 yr My son and I ride the bus all the time usually the #1,#4, or #27, it's not much fun but it gets us to where we need to go. One thing is for sure, Children(and some grown up kids) have a fascination with trains and anything on rails. Can you imagine all the kids that will nag their suburban-exburban parents to go downtown and ride the streetcar? Thomas the Train may recruit our children to one day get us on rails again.. More power to Thomas!
February 16, 200916 yr What should happen to I-75 in your view? (Just a simple question - don't read more to it than is here...) It would be nice to reduce traffic on I75 so that it won't need to be widened. Mass transit such as light rail could be used to reduce that demand.
February 16, 200916 yr What should happen to I-75 in your view? (Just a simple question - don't read more to it than is here...) It does not seem to be the most pressing need....widening one lane each way between paddock and the western hills viaduct, and reconfiguring the on/off ramps seems like the least of our worries. Is it crowded during rush hour? Yes...but the bridge has a lot to do with that. Is it congested 24 hours a day like many other major urban freeways I have had the (dis)pleasure of traveling? Not at all. Moreover, studies have consistently shown that adding freeway lanes only leads to more congestion. More capacity = more cars/trucks. I saw this replicated repeatedly while living in Detroit, yet the powers that be have a real hard time with the concept. As a result, nobody blinks twice about spending 800 million to widen 8 miles of 75 and spruce up a few on/off ramps. But spend less than a 1/4th of that on 8 miles of streetcars through the heart of the city, connecting the CBD with the river, OTR, the largest university, the medical center and the zoo? Howls of protest as a result. Smitherman has represented that the anti-streetcar cabal wants money spent on adding lanes to 75 rather ($800 million) than streetcars ($185 million). Apparently his cohorts agree.
February 16, 200916 yr 6. the route is fixed and reliable 7. buses are notoriously off schedule These are my biggest reasons for supporting streetcars and light rail.
February 16, 200916 yr 6. the route is fixed and reliable 7. buses are notoriously off schedule These are my biggest reasons for supporting streetcars and light rail. Yep. As someone that enjoyed Toronto's streetcar ... it was nice to have something reliable. As long as the transit option is on tires, you will never be able to count on consistency.
February 16, 200916 yr Concidentally, I had a few people talk to me after the debate. They said they still support streetcars, but that I won the debate. Whatever. Is this about streetcars or about your performance in the debate and your reputation? It kills me to see this city which I love with all my heart wallow in mediocrity due to individuals, who claim to be working for the city's best interests, putting their personal careers and reputations before the betterment of the city. Dean, it seems to me if you were truly a supporter of mass transit and light rail and had the progress of the city on the top of your priority list you would be working with streetcar advocates and the city in developing a regional light rail plan as opposed to furiously opposing this project and any other developments...
February 16, 200916 yr Is this about streetcars or about your performance in the debate and your reputation? It kills me to see this city which I love with all my heart wallow in mediocrity due to individuals, who claim to be working for the city's best interests, putting their personal careers and reputations before the betterment of the city. Well put! I think I know maybe 5 people?? that are against the cincinnati streetcars. Unfortunatley they all have big mouths and love attention. It irks me a little also because I absolutley love cincinnati.
February 16, 200916 yr I don't have a ton of experience in other cities regarding politics and development....so I ask this: Does it seem to you that everything is such a struggle in Cincinnati (or is it like this everywhere)? Is there ever anything that people don't hate on (or is there always something to complain about with everything)? It just seems to me that everything is so messed up here... You build new stadiums in the wrong place and then complain there is nothing to do near them. You vote down light rail and then bitch about highways and gas prices You complain about how deserted downtown is, but attack every idea and plan to improve it I feel like i am in the G-damned Twilight Zone.
February 16, 200916 yr ^ I hear you. It's ridiculous. I wish people like the Dean would let the people we elected govern, instead of second guessing them and trying to stir up controversy and drama where there is none. It's nothing short of self promotion and arrogance. Wait, I'm probably being vindictive again. Here's something that's petty and vindictive: doing real harm to the city and metro region where I live and make my living. I'm probably giving too much credit to the Beacon and the Dean, but with every project they oppose, every imaginary controversy or boondoggle they "report" on, they do real and actual damage not only to Cincinnati's perception in the rest of the country, but to the city's ability to operate effectively. Dean, if people want to vote on every single issue they'd watch American Idol. City Council and Mayor Mallory were elected, now let them do their job. If you don't agree, vote them out when they come up for re-election.
February 16, 200916 yr "but with every project they oppose, every imaginary controversy or boondoggle they "report" on, they do real and actual damage not only to Cincinnati's perception in the rest of the country, but to the city's ability to operate effectively." This is exactly what i'm talking about- couldnt of said it better myself. I can't help but think that if people were able to leave cincinnati for as little as a week they would come back with a fresh perspective on things. Everything doesn't have to be so hard!!!
February 16, 200916 yr but with every project they oppose, every imaginary controversy or boondoggle they "report" on, they do real and actual damage not only to Cincinnati's perception in the rest of the country, but to the city's ability to operate effectively." But, "The Dean of Cincinnati" is just a fictional character, how could they actually be doing harm to our city? :-P
February 16, 200916 yr To the question of whether Cincinnati is alone in our accumulation of 'special personalities', I'd say no but the dynamics of interest group politics in the city gives them influence beyond that of many places. The business community gave up on electoral politics 15 years ago or so, instead 3CDC gets what they want (and the city needs) done. The GOP is a rump and is weakened by a strain of anti-urbanism that makes them poor partners at times. The Democratic Party is divided between a wacky left and an urbanist left crowd, an African-American ethnic party, goo-goos who facilitate between Charter and the Dems, and folks who are actually Republicans but pretend to be Dems because the demographics make it the only way to be elected. In that mix, the wacky left can make their voices heard if they can team up with some part of the ethnic party and perhaps the anti-urbanist GOP (COAST). When things are working, they are drowned out by the goo-goos, common good oriented African-Americans, urbanists, and a some of the GOPish crowd whether Dem or GOP. Therefore we should ignore the wacky left and listen to the urbanist left.
February 16, 200916 yr I always thought the Charter movement/party was sort of an interesting concept....a city-specfic political party or movement. Are the Charterites more of the , say, Keys Crescent/Grandin Road crowd...affluent blue blood reformers?
February 16, 200916 yr >environmentally, economically, and socially sustainable Marsha, Marsha, Marsha. Also, the photographs struck a nerve because they were so devastating. Novelty streetcar lines like the ones in Memphis and Tampa are for tourists. But John Schneider's photographs of Portland's modern streetcars showed that they are a part of everyday life for many residents. It also showed that the streetcars are a respectable way to travel. Unfortunately buses carry a stigma and management often discriminates against bus riding employees. A nice-looking car and a house in a respected neighborhood is a big part of any employee's image in the eyes of management. In fact my dad had to start driving to work after he reached a certain level simply for purposes of looking normal and reliable. At best riding the bus is to be an eccentric person at most workplaces. A modern streetcar here in Cincinnati could start making mass transit respectable and living in Over-the-Rhine respectable.
February 16, 200916 yr The Charter Committee is more North Avondale/Paddock Hills/Clifton Gaslight than Grandin Road these days. As a number have mentioned, the streetcar's purpose it is essentially to help dt and OTR achieve their full potential because they can never do that in a car-dominated situation. Adding the Uptown portion makes creates a substantial base of users and a major area that one could live in with minimal car usage - it might even allow the rise of Zipcar and similar car sharing programs.
February 16, 200916 yr The staged photographs did not show anything. What will you say if I get someone in Portland to send me photos that damage the "reputation" of streetcars? Will you talk about how persuasive they are? Someone, earlier, wanted to know why we weren't working with the streetcar advocates. Very early, on my web site, I posted the idea that someone should reach out the NAACP to meet, discuss shared concerns, and to see if there was a way to avoid the petition drive. I was just musing on my own. A guy named Bill Landeck (who signs his posts "JFD" ) immediately posted on other blogs (some for the streetcar advocates) suggesting the NAACP wanted money to stop the petition drive. Then I saw people responding to his comment as if he were serious. So that was the immediate response I got when I merely floated the concept -- anger, resentment, and more people going on about how I must say whatever Smitherman says. Whatever. Another component in that line of thinking: this idea that my support of the petition drive means I should make the first move. Why don't you ask yourselves this question? Kevin Osborne at City Beat did a great cover story called "Train Wreck." Have you read it? It outlines concerns pretty nicely from both sides. But when you say that people like me should talk to "your side," well, who is the representative? Is it John Schneider? Uncle Rando? Chris Bortz? Everyone on council who has voted "yes"? Milton Dohoney? Mayor Mallory? For the NAACP, it's Smitherman. The Chair of COAST is Jason Gloyd. The rep for the SW Greens is Josh Krekeler. If you care about The Beacon, that's me and Justin Jeffre. Now with whom, specifically, are we supposed to meet? And quite frankly, as I mentioned in the blog post I mentioned, for the life of me I still can't figure out why the relevant politicians did not reach out to the coalition early on, just to talk and to see if there was common ground. It might be too late for now. Listen, Charlie Winburn is finishing up the touches on the final version of his alternate plan. Who from this group has reached out to him, to collaborate with him on that plan?
February 16, 200916 yr Here's a question. Why are the streetcar advocates opposed to heritage rail? It seems this would be a great way of getting people interested in riding, as a recreation thing. I think Charlotte's line started out as a heritage rail run, and Kenosha still is running old PCC cars.
February 16, 200916 yr Train Wreck, by Kevin Osborne Citing last year’s amendment approved by voters that banned red-light cameras, Haap says the charter can be changed — and changed again — to suit the mood of the electorate. “These critics make a charter amendment into a bigger deal than they should,” Haap says. “Any amendment can be revoked at a later time. So it’s not like red-light cameras, for example, will be banned forever. If a group really thinks red-light cameras can save our city, they can petition to get their issue on the ballot and change the charter.” No, No, No, No, NO. The charter is Cincinnati's constitution. Sure, any ammendment can be revoked, but the fact is they shouldn't be there in the first place, and getting them revoked is a MUCH harder task then putting them on. What you're doing is tying the hands of the ELECTED officials of this city. How in the HELL are they supposed to get anything done when all your group of merry men has to do is find 6,000 nuts to sign your petition? And then proceed to run a fear-based campaign against the street car before the vote? Haap, what is your ultimate goal? Honestly. Because right now it looks like it is either one of two things: a.) to make a name for yourself b.) to make sure this city can NEVER compete for the best and brightest
February 16, 200916 yr Someone, earlier, wanted to know why we weren't working with the streetcar advocates. Very early, on my web site, I posted the idea that someone should reach out the NAACP to meet, discuss shared concerns, and to see if there was a way to avoid the petition drive. I was just musing on my own. A guy named Bill Landeck (who signs his posts "JFD" ) immediately posted on other blogs (some for the streetcar advocates) suggesting the NAACP wanted money to stop the petition drive. Then I saw people responding to his comment as if he were serious. So that was the immediate response I got when I merely floated the concept -- anger, resentment, and more people going on about how I must say whatever Smitherman says. Whatever. So one gentleman posts a comment on your blog and you give up on any and all collaboration? Like I said, if you were truly interested in mass transit and light rail you would find a way to collaborate instead of disintegrate. I wasn't as involved in the 2002 light rail plan in Cincinnati, I'd be interested to know how hard you, NAACP, COAST, and the Green Party worked on that plan's behalf. I have a guess but I'd like to know the facts first..
February 16, 200916 yr Here's a question. Why are the streetcar advocates opposed to heritage rail? It seems this would be a great way of getting people interested in riding, as a recreation thing. I think Charlotte's line started out as a heritage rail run, and Kenosha still is running old PCC cars. What? We're talking about a street car system. You're talking about old time choo-choo's that are popular with kids and don't go anywhere in particular right?
February 16, 200916 yr Train Wreck, by Kevin Osborne Citing last year’s amendment approved by voters that banned red-light cameras, Haap says the charter can be changed — and changed again — to suit the mood of the electorate. “These critics make a charter amendment into a bigger deal than they should,” Haap says. “Any amendment can be revoked at a later time. So it’s not like red-light cameras, for example, will be banned forever. If a group really thinks red-light cameras can save our city, they can petition to get their issue on the ballot and change the charter.” No, No, No, No, NO. The charter is Cincinnati's constitution. Sure, any ammendment can be revoked, but the fact is they shouldn't be there in the first place, and getting them revoked is a MUCH harder task then putting them on. What you're doing is tying the hands of the ELECTED officials of this city. How in the HELL are they supposed to get anything done when all your group of merry men has to do is find 6,000 nuts to sign your petition? And then proceed to run a fear-based campaign against the street car before the vote? Haap, what is your ultimate goal? Honestly. Because right now it looks like it is either one of two things: a.) to make a name for yourself b.) to make sure this city can NEVER compete for the best and brightest I agree 100% I listened to the entire Bearcat broadcast! Haag, your way out of your element and your doing more harm to your name and credibility (if you had any). It has become BLATENTLY OBVIOUS that you, COAST, and NAACP are not very informed on the subject and are using this just for political purposes and PERSONAL GAIN AND NOT TO MAKE CINCY ANY BETTER. Coal??????????? WTF????????????? That's all you can come up with? Get out of town and SEE the world. Broaden your horizons. You might just be enlightened!!
February 16, 200916 yr If we all throw in $10, we can get Haap a plane ticket to Portland to see it for himself (one way! Just kidding). It would be great to have such a raving opponent be converted!
February 16, 200916 yr ^ In a few years, he'll be able to go to about twenty other cities that will have modern streetcars. On the other hand, he could just stay here and see one.
February 16, 200916 yr What? We're talking about a street car system. You're talking about old time choo-choo's that are popular with kids and don't go anywhere in particular right? Defensive sarcasm gets you nowhere. I asked a question and pointed out examples. I could also point out the example of San Franciscos Market Street line that runs modern streetcars and antique streetcars on the same route.
February 16, 200916 yr Here's a question. Why are the streetcar advocates opposed to heritage rail? It seems this would be a great way of getting people interested in riding, as a recreation thing. I think Charlotte's line started out as a heritage rail run, and Kenosha still is running old PCC cars. I'm not sure what you're talking about. I googled heritage rail and found this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heritage_railway Is that what you're referring to? It looks like the old train they had at King's Island that went through Pioneerville or whatever. If so, I'm not sure what it has to do with streetcars, nor have I heard any streetcar propents mention it positively or negatively. But, it seems like something completely different than what we're actually discussing. If you mean running a vintage style car on the track, I don't think anyone here is necessarily against having one or two, but the vintage cars aren't handicap accessible, which as we've already pointed out, is a VERY big deal.
February 16, 200916 yr If you mean running a vintage style car on the track, I don't think anyone here is necessarily against having one or two That is what Im talking about. The Kenosha and Charllote cases are interesting as they started out 100% vintage, but Charlotte converted into a modern system. Kenosha is still running vintage PCCs, though, and I dont know how they get around the accessibility issue.
February 16, 200916 yr ^ In a few years, he'll be able to go to about twenty other cities that will have modern streetcars. "Twenty other cities": great point. This constant mentioning of Portland, and Portland only, clouds the fact that many, many cities (and even big towns) are running, building, planning, or investigating streetcars. I think it hurts the pro-streetcar argument by making it sound like a quirking pacific northwest thing rather the mainstream. Cincinnati quirky? No. Cincinnati mainstream? Well maybe!
February 16, 200916 yr Train Wreck, by Kevin Osborne Citing last years amendment approved by voters that banned red-light cameras, Haap says the charter can be changed and changed again to suit the mood of the electorate. These critics make a charter amendment into a bigger deal than they should, Haap says. Any amendment can be revoked at a later time. So its not like red-light cameras, for example, will be banned forever. If a group really thinks red-light cameras can save our city, they can petition to get their issue on the ballot and change the charter. No, No, No, No, NO. The charter is Cincinnati's constitution. Sure, any ammendment can be revoked, but the fact is they shouldn't be there in the first place, and getting them revoked is a MUCH harder task then putting them on. What you're doing is tying the hands of the ELECTED officials of this city. How in the HELL are they supposed to get anything done when all your group of merry men has to do is find 6,000 nuts to sign your petition? And then proceed to run a fear-based campaign against the street car before the vote? Exactly. That's not the purpose of the charter. Just because something technically can be added to the charter, that doesn't mean that belongs there. Furthermore, if we're going to vote on a routine piece of infrastructure spending, why have elected officials at all? We vote for people who we think will make informed decisions for the benefit of the city. If they don't, the next time we vote for someone who will. If we don't allow that to happen, it defeats the whole purpose of having a city council. Just have everyone vote on everything at that point.
February 16, 200916 yr For everyone that wanted to see Schneider's Powerpoint, I have posted it online: http://explorecincinnati.com/schneider-presentation.zip
February 16, 200916 yr If you mean running a vintage style car on the track, I don't think anyone here is necessarily against having one or two That is what Im talking about. The Kenosha and Charllote cases are interesting as they started out 100% vintage, but Charlotte converted into a modern system. Kenosha is still running vintage PCCs, though, and I dont know how they get around the accessibility issue. I don't think anybody is opposed to having a few old street cars running on the track. The point is we still have to get the system built to be able to have that option. Your question was vague and I've never heard the Market St line in SF referred to has 'heritage rail.' But if that's what you're talking about then I'm not sure who you think opposes it.
February 16, 200916 yr If you mean running a vintage style car on the track, I don't think anyone here is necessarily against having one or two That is what Im talking about. The Kenosha and Charllote cases are interesting as they started out 100% vintage, but Charlotte converted into a modern system. Kenosha is still running vintage PCCs, though, and I dont know how they get around the accessibility issue. Okay. Well, I don't know that anyone is specifically against them. I think the reason you may have seen some pushback on these is because they are not what is being proposed, yet they are what the local news typically shows footage of. It's an accuracy thing. I personally wouldn't mind a few of these, but I prefer the modern, sleek design that Portland has implemented.
February 16, 200916 yr For everyone that wanted to see Schneider's Powerpoint, I have posted it online: http://explorecincinnati.com/schneider-presentation.zip Much thanks.
February 16, 200916 yr I've been informed, through an UrbanCincy commenter, that the Beacon is modifying or not posting pro-streetcar comments. Classy. We do not delete substantive comments with which we disagree. In fact, the whole time this person has made these baseless allegations, we have been hosting lengthy comments which disagree with our positions, and we have engaged a healthy debate. I have sent an email to this person, asking for a copy of the allegedly deleted item. If s/he sends something of substance, I will happily showcase it on The Beacon. Base hypocrite. He just deleted a post, admits it and then misrepresents it (the deleted post) in trying to pre-empt accusations of censorship. Great tactic when losing a debate (and any shred of credibility in the process).
February 16, 200916 yr Do you know what the real "boondoggle" is? It's not these progressive projects that the city wants to do to compete. It's the ridiculous opposition to ANY project in or around the center city. I've said it once and I'll say it again, without DOWNTOWN Cincinnati, there is no neighborhood or exurb worth being in. Do you think a failing core is going to make your property in Oakley, College Hill, Mason or wherever more desirable? No, it won't. People don't move here for Mason. They can get that in any of the 50 states and any city in the country. They come for a job most likely in downtown or uptown; they come to go to Xavier or UC. If these people see a dying city with constant infighting and nothing being done about anything, do you think they'll want to put down roots here? No, they won't. Will Cincinnati continue the death spiral until we're all living in Detroit? Probably. Stop Hating.
February 16, 200916 yr For everyone that wanted to see Schneider's Powerpoint, I have posted it online: http://explorecincinnati.com/schneider-presentation.zip Very Nice Work!
February 16, 200916 yr But when you say that people like me should talk to "your side," well, who is the representative? Is it John Schneider? Uncle Rando? Chris Bortz? Everyone on council who has voted "yes"? Milton Dohoney? Mayor Mallory? I'm flattered that you think that in some way I'm a representative of pro-streetcar side, but that's not even close to the case. I'm just an informed/engaged citizen sharing my knowledge, on the topic, with others. It just so happens I have a public forum (my blog) to share those thoughts and that there is a significant number of people who enjoy reading them. UrbanCincy's readers have come to expect constructive criticism where if I critique one thing, I offer a valuable alternative that has evidence to support it. If I agree with something, then I let that be known with them and cite all of the information I have used to formulate my own opinion. Feel free to look around, it's all there from economic studies, to photos, videos, guest editorials, open commentary/discussion, feasibility studies, personal analysis based on my own travel and experiences with rail transit. Like I said, I'm glad you would even consider me in the conversation to be a representative, but I am not. Talk with someone like Michael Moore (city architect), Milton Dohoney (city manager). If you don't have luck with those two then you could check with any of the streetcar supporters on City Council (Bortz, Qualls, Berding, Crowley, Harris, Thomas, Ghiz, or Cole). This is the City's project so check with them. If not, you're fortunate to have some really engaged and inform citizens like John Schneider around to help out.
February 16, 200916 yr The Dean, I'm just curious, if you truly are pro-Cincinnati and pro-mass transit as you say, what have you done to promote better mass transit and increased ridership in the city? If the Streetcar proposal never existed, would you still be promoting a downtown trolleybus circulator, since you believe that is the best option?
February 16, 200916 yr Dean, since you haven't lived in a city with rail transit, please share with us your experience riding buses here in Cincinnati as well as whatever rail transit and buses you have ridden elsewhere. The debate was a waste of everybody's time because you weren't informed on the subject of transit in general, not just the modern streetcar. For the record I've ridden these rail transit systems: New York City Subway (dozens of trips on over a dozen visits, including the obscure G line) Long Island Railroad Boston T (all four lines, which all run different types of equipment ranging from streetcar [technically light rail] to heavy rail subway) Washington Metro (all five lines) Miami Metrorail MARTA (Atlanta) Pittsburgh T St. Louis light rail Chicago Subway and elevated lines French Lick, IN heritage trolley Paris Subway Paris Commuter Rail Barcelona Subway Barcelona Funicular Madrid Subway I've seen in person but not ridden: Philadelphia subway BART Los Angeles light rail Baltimore light rail Bibao, Spain light rail Barcelona light rail New Orleans streetcar Tampa tourist streetcar Memphis tourist streetcar I've ridden the following city bus systems: Cincinnati #4, #24, #17, #18, #33, #49, #78 TANK #2 Airport/Hebron TANK Southbank Shuttle New York City Boston Nashville Knoxville Columbus, OH Kansas City Miami, FL I've ridden the following intercity trains: Amtrak Boston to New York 5+ times Metro North New York to New Haven, CT TGV 200mph train from Paris to Parpignon, France Some slow intercity train in Spain Saw high speed train in Spain but did not ride it So Dean you've got until November to get up to speed with the kind of people you and anyone on your side is going to be debating with so maybe you should plan your summer vacation somewhere where you can experience the transit systems in other cities. In the meantime anyone looking to debate you can simply look up the electric bill of any large building around town that is equivalent to what's estimated for the streetcar, take a photo of that building, show it at a debate, and get laughter from the crowd.
February 16, 200916 yr I listened to the Bearcat broadcast.. The first 15 minutes were a total waste of time. Haag was lecturing about where electricity comes from to an urban sustainabilty forum.. :lol: friggin hilarious.. Thanks for wasting our time! Good job Mr Schneider.
February 16, 200916 yr Also dean and Jeffrey, what (if anything) about the current proposal could be altered to make it better suit your goals for the city? By this, I mean realistic alterations of the streetcar proposal currently on deck, not "don't build it", "add buses", or "build light rail instead". We're not going to get many opportunities to add rail of any kind, so it's critically important that we take advantage of the one we have right now, particularly with the country beginning to finally turn back to the cities and rail transit. What if a different power soure or funding method were to be found? Vintage-style cars? If you have no answer for this, that's fine. Just trying to find some common ground here. As you claim to support mass transit and other green initiatives, it seems like our two sides of this debate should be more in line than they are currently.
February 16, 200916 yr I listened to the Bearcat broadcast.. The first 15 minutes were a total waste of time. Haag was lecturing about where electricity comes from to an urban sustainabilty forum.. :lol: friggin hilarious.. Thanks for wasting our time! I don't know ... which do you think is better: What you've pointed out or that Justin Jeffre made sure we know the difference between streetcars and LRT?
February 16, 200916 yr build light rail instead Forget that, Haag is anti-coal remember? My son and I were just watching some Japanese train videos. Sometimes I just feel like giving up on this city and moving back to a country that embraces rail. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R7CPiApzLJw
February 16, 200916 yr Is the anti-streetcar crowd geared more towards no rail transit, or just no streetcar? In other words, are they opposed to the specifics of the streetcar plan, or the concept in and of itself? The only problem I have with the streetcar is that it isn't enough, in my opinion. Is this a reason anyone opposes it? The operating costs would be lower perpassenger on a larger system, not to mention it would have the appeal of "Wow, that's close enough I could use it." and no doubt win over more potential users. I just don't know when the time to propose a regional light-rail connection to an urban streetcar system, that utilizes one of the cities greatest assets - the subway tunnels - would be. Although being a suburban-born conservative and wanting this, the time can't be far off, right??? (I don't oppose it, just fear that it won't be as successful as we hope, and thus put a damper on any future light-rail development. IMO the uptown link should be part of the initial phase. This doesn't negate the fact that the proposed wording of the amendment is absurd and has no place in a city charter, which is the reason I'm adamently against it.)
February 16, 200916 yr ^When they were originally only discussing the OTR route, I ran into those same fears of it possibly being a failure. The addition of the Uptown route leaves NO DOUBT in my mind that this would be a wild success! And I will go as far as to say the UC crowd alone could support this. All other residents and riders would be an added bonus. I can't tell you how many times we would've used a streetcar back when I attended in the late 90's. And I wasn't even living in Uptown. The need is even greater today, with all that has been done to Uptown in the past decade.
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