No, it just revolves entirely around the coal nonsense. I'm surprised the "Dean" has chosen to pick apart one trivial and infactual component.

>jmeck, that's an impressive list!

 

I forgot:

 

Boston Silver Line BRT

Cleveland Rapid

 

 

And our friends in Canada:

 

Toronto subway

Montreal subway

 

And BTW the Montreal Metro runs on rubber tires, kind of like a bio-diesel trolley would.  Except not really. 

 

 

>I'm surprised the "Dean"

 

I hereby declare myself The Provost of Cincinnati.

I arrived to Portland last night two hours ahead of coworkers who were renting the car for the week.  It cost me less than $3 to get from the airport to the City Center and an ejoyable trip it was!  (not that I haven't done it before)  Think I'll take the streetcar to get to dinner!

 

If streetcars are the first step towards getting folks to realize what a great mode of transportation light rail can be then lets do it. 

 

How many people do you know that went to UC and never went downtown?  A connector would most certainly be used by students and maybe as they ride through OTR they'd realize that staying in the city after graduation is an option!

Well that was painful, perhaps we could encourage to work on issues in his own county. I hear Hamilton would love to start a coal powered streetcar system.

 

Anyway, the original downtown loop seemed to limited and required to much hope that people would move into long-time troubled neighborhoods. By making the commitment to including the Uptown area, it seems beyond argument that you suddenly have a substantial population that would be able to take advantage of high quality mass transit - and not need to bring a car to the campus area or use it much if they did. UC wants to be a serious urban university and this can help it compete with other institutions that similarly threaded into the community.

 

The coal issue is piffle unless you are willing to argue that entire Greater Cincinnati region should shut down. It remains easier to change electric generation for a region than to enforce a massive transformation of individual choices about the fuel in their cars - and the last I checked our coal is relatively locally produced whereas gas comes from far far away.

 

 

>By the way, apparently I have read more than you think I have.

 

Biodiesel Trolley Convergys Matt Damon!

 

Carbon imprint Joaquin Phoenix abutment putzing at 6mph

^Funny, I don't remember saying that...  :wink2:

The coal issue is piffle unless you are willing to argue that entire Greater Cincinnati region should shut down. It remains easier to change electric generation for a region than to enforce a massive transformation of individual choices about the fuel in their cars - and the last I checked our coal is relatively locally produced whereas gas comes from far far away.

 

Marathon's Catlettsburg, Kentucky refinery for gasoline is powered by a coal-fired power plant north of Louisa, Kentucky. The refineries at Lima, Ohio are powered by coal-fired power plants in the eastern half of the state. Should we stop purchasing gasoline because they are powered by coal?

A Streetcar Named Desire... or a Road to Nowhere?

http://www.soapboxmedia.com/features/0217soapdishstreetcar.aspx

 

In recent months, an ostensibly unlikely and incongruous alliance has surfaced in opposition to the proposed Cincinnati streetcar project.  The group consists primarily of the Cincinnati branch of the NAACP, the Green Party, Libertarians and those stridently crusty anti-tax curmudgeons known as C.O.A.S.T.  This anti-streetcar cabal has specialized in a type of rhetoric-heavy/fact-lite speechifying which emphasizes some of the Paleolithic style backward-looking thinking which Cincinnati is so desperately trying to put in the rear view mirror.  Moreover, their ill-conceived petition to force a vote on this issue is Exhibit A in one of the worst examples in recent memory of "governing by ballot box."

 

Although Cincinnati's recent progress in and around downtown, the Banks and Over-the-Rhine, has led many to believe that it's no longer "business as usual (i.e. same old Cincinnati)," the fact of the matter is that there remains an entrenched slug of citizenry who smugly refuse to acknowledge recent progress, resorting instead to a reflexive snort of "I'll believe it when I see it," yet repeatedly refusing to remove their blinders.  This type of willful ignorance provides a veritable tabula rasa for the anti-streetcar coalition to project their arguments.

 

While your loyal Soapdish is not looking to inject itself directly into the standard issue pro/con streetcar debate (see links at the end for all the relevant information), one recent comment by notoriously outspoken NAACP firebrand Christopher Smitherman set off a few alarm bells.  Specifically, in a somewhat poorly composed letter to our newly elected President, Smitherman opined that "we need to focus on bread-and-butter projects such as repairing sidewalks, medians, potholes; or expanding driving lanes on Interstates 71 and 75 to reduce traffic congestion... [sic]"  Visionary stuff indeed.  Aside and apart from the misguided and fallacious argument that you can't have both streetcars as well as, um... sidewalks and pothole repairs, the argument in favor of adding lanes to interstates as opposed to a streetcar system really raised my hackles.

 

Ignoring the fundamental factor that there is an obvious apples and oranges flaw in positing a "streetcars or interstates" ultimatum, let's explore this one a little further, shall we, just for fun.  There is a valuable point of reference and context that needs to be clarified, both in monetary terms as well as the overall image we wish to project as a city.

 

Let's start with the argument, espoused by Mr. Smitherman supra, that adding a lane to a freeway, say I-75 for example, is more important than a streetcar system connecting our two principal employment centers, linking the riverfront and stadia district with downtown, Over-the-Rhine, the University of Cincinnati, Pill Hill and the Zoo.  It should be noted that the proposed Mill Creek Expressway/I-75 project will essentially add one single lane of freeway in both directions of I-75 between the Western Hills Viaduct and Paddock Road, while also revamping on/off ramps, and will cost an estimated $642.5 million. That's an extra lane of freeway for 7.9 miles, plus revamping interchanges.  That's an important number just to keep things in perspective when assessing the cost/benefits of a streetcar system. In addition to the $642.5 million Mill Creek Expressway project, the Through the Valley project will engage in an additional widening exercise from Paddock to I-275 at the cost of an additional $149 million (at least).  Checking the abacus, that gives us a total price tag of around $800 million to basically add a few lanes to a relatively short stretch of I-75.  Yay progress!  These extra freeway lanes and spiffily reconfigured on/off ramps will most assuredly catapult Cincinnati past Austin, Chicago, San Francisco, Seattle, Portland and other supposedly more desirable growth cities.

 

While an additional lane on the interstate is indeed an impressive feat of engineering, civic pride and…um, concrete pouring, I don't mean to rain on the cloverleaf, however studies have consistently shown that adding capacity to freeways merely leads to more drivers on the freeway.  A particularly apt quote comes from the widely respected, Orlando-based, professional traffic engineer Walter Kulash, who has observed that "[w]idening roads to solve traffic congestion is like loosening your belt to cure obesity."  Driving this point home, consider the fact that forward thinking cities have actually been deconstructing parts of freeways. In Cincinnati, we have supposed leaders who believe the future is to add even more lanes to existing freeways.  Beautiful.

 

While I realize that funding for streetcars and interstates involve markedly different issues and sources, the current estimated cost for Phase I of the streetcar is $102 million (connecting the Banks and stadia with downtown, Findlay Market and Over-the-Rhine).  The University, Uptown and Zoo loops add an additional $83 million, for a grand total of $185 million (and there's no limit on where the expansion can go from there, both in terms of future streetcar lines as well as a feed-in with light rail).  Coincidentally enough, if the full stretch to the zoo and back were implemented, it would be a route of roughly 7.9 miles, the same stretch of widening on I-75.

 

So we have critics carping on the profligacy of spending $185 million versus a whopping $800 million for freeway widening.  Why is it that highway construction in this country simply gets a free pass…like a necessary evil?  The rabble rousers can wave the pitchforks all day over $180 million for streetcars ("oh, the humanity….the outrage!"), but when someone writes a check for $800 million in freeway widenings nobody bats an eye?  [don't answer that—rhetorical question]  Just from a purely gut reaction, what would ultimately be more impressive in raising the profile of Cincinnati in comparison to its peer cities? Put yourself in the position of a first time visitor/tourist.  Does anyone drive through Atlanta on I-75 and think "I am really impressed by the number of lanes they have"?  Really?

 

Moreover, and not to get all bollixed up in the formulas and equations and stuff [insert eye glazing here], but some pretty detailed studies on the impact of the streetcars project a benefit-to-cost ratio of 2.7:1, compared to only 1.15:1 for the I-75 project.  If you want to crunch the empirical data, go to this link for more in-depth analysis.

 

If Cincinnatians are truly serious about moving the city forward and positioning this city as a desirable and attractive place for families, young professionals, the creative class (and pretty much everyone in between), then everyone needs to get behind the streetcar proposal. If you want to cling to a fading image of a post-industrial rust belt relic, then by all means, let's widen the freeways at the expense of streetcars.

 

Again, it bears repeating--$800 million for a wider freeway; $183 million for streetcars running from the river to UC to the hospitals to the zoo, connecting the city's two major employment centers as well as its largest university.  It's all about perspective.  Get on board folks, before the anti-streetcar posse pulls up the rails and points us squarely on the ever-widening and congested road to obsolescence.

 

For more information, please visit the following websites:

http://www.cincystreetcar.com/

http://cincystreetcar.wordpress.com/

http://cincinnati-oh.gov/city/downloads/city_pdf17434.pdf

http://www.protransit.com/Default.asp

Just to be fair, 200,000(300,000 people) cars and trucks use I-75 everyday. Compare that with the 12k that may use the streetcar everyday. I'm for it all though.

I just listened to the podcast of the debate and really enjoyed listening to both sides of the issue. Thank you Explore Cincinnati for the audio. As far as the debate went, both speakers did a good job, each could have listened to the questions a bit more closely and expanded on their answers. Jason seemed to get a bit fired up and repetitive, John could have done a better job disputing some of the "facts" given in Jason's argument.

 

I see both sides of the argument, however, on the issue of environmental impact, a rail-based, electric streetcar wins over a biodiesel trolley simply because of economies of scale. Duke Energy/Cinergy has recently spent several hundred million dollars to add SCR (Selective Catalytic Reduction) and FGD (Flue Gas Desulfurization) to local/regional coal power plants.

 

http://www.duke-energy.com/environment/air-quality/duke-energy-actions.asp

 

This type of control can never be achieved with millions of diesel fueled vehicles, you can only change the fuel. The technologies of carbon capture as also following the route of economies of scale because there is a much larger "bang for the buck" (to quote Jason) to capture emissions from power plants than individual automobiles.

 

That being said, most of Jason's debate focused on the environmental impact of coal, which is huge, but vital to providing affordable and reliant electricity to Cincinnati. Unlike California, Ohio and Cincinnati are trying to expand their economies, and nothing would hurt us more than to increase the total cost of business in the region. That is why the future will play heavily on electricity production/storage/usage because it will allow for larger power plants with better control of emissions vs. the current situation of millions of tiny, dirty power plants on the road today.

 

Also, Jason mentioned that the trolley would be better because it would allow for change in habit/newness of development. This is exactly the opposite of what we want for a healthy mixed development. The streetcar provides the permanent needs to have a business district last for a long time. Many commercial districts have died in the past/present because a newer one was built a few exits to the north. With the rail line, its not going anywhere and it is unlikely that development would more further out on the rail line.

^Well said!

does anybody know the final stimulus package number for both high speed rail and other rail initiatives?

A Streetcar Named Desire... or a Road to Nowhere?

http://www.soapboxmedia.com/features/0217soapdishstreetcar.aspx

 

In recent months, an ostensibly unlikely and incongruous alliance has surfaced in opposition to the proposed Cincinnati streetcar project.  The group consists primarily of the Cincinnati branch of the NAACP, the Green Party, Libertarians and those stridently crusty anti-tax curmudgeons known as C.O.A.S.T.  This anti-streetcar cabal has specialized in a type of rhetoric-heavy/fact-lite speechifying which emphasizes some of the Paleolithic style backward-looking thinking which Cincinnati is so desperately trying to put in the rear view mirror.  Moreover, their ill-conceived petition to force a vote on this issue is Exhibit A in one of the worst examples in recent memory of "governing by ballot box."

 

Although Cincinnati's recent progress in and around downtown, the Banks and Over-the-Rhine, has led many to believe that it's no longer "business as usual (i.e. same old Cincinnati)," the fact of the matter is that there remains an entrenched slug of citizenry who smugly refuse to acknowledge recent progress, resorting instead to a reflexive snort of "I'll believe it when I see it," yet repeatedly refusing to remove their blinders.  This type of willful ignorance provides a veritable tabula rasa for the anti-streetcar coalition to project their arguments.

 

While your loyal Soapdish is not looking to inject itself directly into the standard issue pro/con streetcar debate (see links at the end for all the relevant information), one recent comment by notoriously outspoken NAACP firebrand Christopher Smitherman set off a few alarm bells.  Specifically, in a somewhat poorly composed letter to our newly elected President, Smitherman opined that "we need to focus on bread-and-butter projects such as repairing sidewalks, medians, potholes; or expanding driving lanes on Interstates 71 and 75 to reduce traffic congestion... [sic]"  Visionary stuff indeed.  Aside and apart from the misguided and fallacious argument that you can't have both streetcars as well as, um... sidewalks and pothole repairs, the argument in favor of adding lanes to interstates as opposed to a streetcar system really raised my hackles.

 

Ignoring the fundamental factor that there is an obvious apples and oranges flaw in positing a "streetcars or interstates" ultimatum, let's explore this one a little further, shall we, just for fun.  There is a valuable point of reference and context that needs to be clarified, both in monetary terms as well as the overall image we wish to project as a city.

 

Let's start with the argument, espoused by Mr. Smitherman supra, that adding a lane to a freeway, say I-75 for example, is more important than a streetcar system connecting our two principal employment centers, linking the riverfront and stadia district with downtown, Over-the-Rhine, the University of Cincinnati, Pill Hill and the Zoo.  It should be noted that the proposed Mill Creek Expressway/I-75 project will essentially add one single lane of freeway in both directions of I-75 between the Western Hills Viaduct and Paddock Road, while also revamping on/off ramps, and will cost an estimated $642.5 million. That's an extra lane of freeway for 7.9 miles, plus revamping interchanges.  That's an important number just to keep things in perspective when assessing the cost/benefits of a streetcar system. In addition to the $642.5 million Mill Creek Expressway project, the Through the Valley project will engage in an additional widening exercise from Paddock to I-275 at the cost of an additional $149 million (at least).  Checking the abacus, that gives us a total price tag of around $800 million to basically add a few lanes to a relatively short stretch of I-75.  Yay progress!  These extra freeway lanes and spiffily reconfigured on/off ramps will most assuredly catapult Cincinnati past Austin, Chicago, San Francisco, Seattle, Portland and other supposedly more desirable growth cities.

 

While an additional lane on the interstate is indeed an impressive feat of engineering, civic pride and…um, concrete pouring, I don't mean to rain on the cloverleaf, however studies have consistently shown that adding capacity to freeways merely leads to more drivers on the freeway.  A particularly apt quote comes from the widely respected, Orlando-based, professional traffic engineer Walter Kulash, who has observed that "[w]idening roads to solve traffic congestion is like loosening your belt to cure obesity."  Driving this point home, consider the fact that forward thinking cities have actually been deconstructing parts of freeways. In Cincinnati, we have supposed leaders who believe the future is to add even more lanes to existing freeways.  Beautiful.

 

While I realize that funding for streetcars and interstates involve markedly different issues and sources, the current estimated cost for Phase I of the streetcar is $102 million (connecting the Banks and stadia with downtown, Findlay Market and Over-the-Rhine).  The University, Uptown and Zoo loops add an additional $83 million, for a grand total of $185 million (and there's no limit on where the expansion can go from there, both in terms of future streetcar lines as well as a feed-in with light rail).  Coincidentally enough, if the full stretch to the zoo and back were implemented, it would be a route of roughly 7.9 miles, the same stretch of widening on I-75.

 

So we have critics carping on the profligacy of spending $185 million versus a whopping $800 million for freeway widening.  Why is it that highway construction in this country simply gets a free pass…like a necessary evil?  The rabble rousers can wave the pitchforks all day over $180 million for streetcars ("oh, the humanity….the outrage!"), but when someone writes a check for $800 million in freeway widenings nobody bats an eye?  [don't answer that—rhetorical question]  Just from a purely gut reaction, what would ultimately be more impressive in raising the profile of Cincinnati in comparison to its peer cities? Put yourself in the position of a first time visitor/tourist.  Does anyone drive through Atlanta on I-75 and think "I am really impressed by the number of lanes they have"?  Really?

 

Moreover, and not to get all bollixed up in the formulas and equations and stuff [insert eye glazing here], but some pretty detailed studies on the impact of the streetcars project a benefit-to-cost ratio of 2.7:1, compared to only 1.15:1 for the I-75 project.  If you want to crunch the empirical data, go to this link for more in-depth analysis.

 

If Cincinnatians are truly serious about moving the city forward and positioning this city as a desirable and attractive place for families, young professionals, the creative class (and pretty much everyone in between), then everyone needs to get behind the streetcar proposal. If you want to cling to a fading image of a post-industrial rust belt relic, then by all means, let's widen the freeways at the expense of streetcars.

 

Again, it bears repeating--$800 million for a wider freeway; $183 million for streetcars running from the river to UC to the hospitals to the zoo, connecting the city's two major employment centers as well as its largest university.  It's all about perspective.  Get on board folks, before the anti-streetcar posse pulls up the rails and points us squarely on the ever-widening and congested road to obsolescence.

 

For more information, please visit the following websites:

http://www.cincystreetcar.com/

http://cincystreetcar.wordpress.com/

http://cincinnati-oh.gov/city/downloads/city_pdf17434.pdf

http://www.protransit.com/Default.asp

 

When are people going to understand that the opposition to the streetcar is related to the overall picture of regional public transportation?  I don't care what anchors DT and UT, it doesn't get people who aren't already close downtown and it doesn't get people to our other regional job centers, such as up and down 71 and 75.  Also, the "wait and see" approach to the Banks and the streetcar are directly tied to the ineptitude of the local government over several decades.  Bottom line: the City has to gain the public trust back.  Chastizing citizens for this is counter-productive.  All the powers-that-be have to do is communicate CLEARLY with the public on their intentions, and keep on working.  If the plans are sound, then it will work, if not...

When are people going to understand that the opposition to the streetcar is related to the overall picture of regional public transportation?  I don't care what anchors DT and UT, it doesn't get people who aren't already close downtown and it doesn't get people to our other regional job centers, such as up and down 71 and 75.  Also, the "wait and see" approach to the Banks and the streetcar are directly tied to the ineptitude of the local government over several decades.  Bottom line: the City has to gain the public trust back.  Chastizing citizens for this is counter-productive.  All the powers-that-be have to do is communicate CLEARLY with the public on their intentions, and keep on working.  If the plans are sound, then it will work, if not...

 

If I remember correctly there was a chance to have a regional transit system that was put before a county-wide vote in 2002.  It failed by a 2:1 margin.  What should the city do...kick dirt around until that 2:1 margin all of a sudden flips the other way, or start to work on a project within the city limits that is manageable and can be worked into a larger regional transit system at some point?

.

A Streetcar Named Desire... or a Road to Nowhere?

http://www.soapboxmedia.com/features/0217soapdishstreetcar.aspx

 

In recent months, an ostensibly unlikely and incongruous alliance has surfaced in opposition to the proposed Cincinnati streetcar project.  The group consists primarily of the Cincinnati branch of the NAACP, the Green Party, Libertarians and those stridently crusty anti-tax curmudgeons known as C.O.A.S.T.  This anti-streetcar cabal has specialized in a type of rhetoric-heavy/fact-lite speechifying which emphasizes some of the Paleolithic style backward-looking thinking which Cincinnati is so desperately trying to put in the rear view mirror.  Moreover, their ill-conceived petition to force a vote on this issue is Exhibit A in one of the worst examples in recent memory of "governing by ballot box."

 

Although Cincinnati's recent progress in and around downtown, the Banks and Over-the-Rhine, has led many to believe that it's no longer "business as usual (i.e. same old Cincinnati)," the fact of the matter is that there remains an entrenched slug of citizenry who smugly refuse to acknowledge recent progress, resorting instead to a reflexive snort of "I'll believe it when I see it," yet repeatedly refusing to remove their blinders.  This type of willful ignorance provides a veritable tabula rasa for the anti-streetcar coalition to project their arguments.

 

While your loyal Soapdish is not looking to inject itself directly into the standard issue pro/con streetcar debate (see links at the end for all the relevant information), one recent comment by notoriously outspoken NAACP firebrand Christopher Smitherman set off a few alarm bells.  Specifically, in a somewhat poorly composed letter to our newly elected President, Smitherman opined that "we need to focus on bread-and-butter projects such as repairing sidewalks, medians, potholes; or expanding driving lanes on Interstates 71 and 75 to reduce traffic congestion... [sic]"  Visionary stuff indeed.  Aside and apart from the misguided and fallacious argument that you can't have both streetcars as well as, um... sidewalks and pothole repairs, the argument in favor of adding lanes to interstates as opposed to a streetcar system really raised my hackles.

 

Ignoring the fundamental factor that there is an obvious apples and oranges flaw in positing a "streetcars or interstates" ultimatum, let's explore this one a little further, shall we, just for fun.  There is a valuable point of reference and context that needs to be clarified, both in monetary terms as well as the overall image we wish to project as a city.

 

Let's start with the argument, espoused by Mr. Smitherman supra, that adding a lane to a freeway, say I-75 for example, is more important than a streetcar system connecting our two principal employment centers, linking the riverfront and stadia district with downtown, Over-the-Rhine, the University of Cincinnati, Pill Hill and the Zoo.  It should be noted that the proposed Mill Creek Expressway/I-75 project will essentially add one single lane of freeway in both directions of I-75 between the Western Hills Viaduct and Paddock Road, while also revamping on/off ramps, and will cost an estimated $642.5 million. That's an extra lane of freeway for 7.9 miles, plus revamping interchanges.  That's an important number just to keep things in perspective when assessing the cost/benefits of a streetcar system. In addition to the $642.5 million Mill Creek Expressway project, the Through the Valley project will engage in an additional widening exercise from Paddock to I-275 at the cost of an additional $149 million (at least).  Checking the abacus, that gives us a total price tag of around $800 million to basically add a few lanes to a relatively short stretch of I-75.  Yay progress!  These extra freeway lanes and spiffily reconfigured on/off ramps will most assuredly catapult Cincinnati past Austin, Chicago, San Francisco, Seattle, Portland and other supposedly more desirable growth cities.

 

While an additional lane on the interstate is indeed an impressive feat of engineering, civic pride and…um, concrete pouring, I don't mean to rain on the cloverleaf, however studies have consistently shown that adding capacity to freeways merely leads to more drivers on the freeway.  A particularly apt quote comes from the widely respected, Orlando-based, professional traffic engineer Walter Kulash, who has observed that "[w]idening roads to solve traffic congestion is like loosening your belt to cure obesity."  Driving this point home, consider the fact that forward thinking cities have actually been deconstructing parts of freeways. In Cincinnati, we have supposed leaders who believe the future is to add even more lanes to existing freeways.  Beautiful.

 

While I realize that funding for streetcars and interstates involve markedly different issues and sources, the current estimated cost for Phase I of the streetcar is $102 million (connecting the Banks and stadia with downtown, Findlay Market and Over-the-Rhine).  The University, Uptown and Zoo loops add an additional $83 million, for a grand total of $185 million (and there's no limit on where the expansion can go from there, both in terms of future streetcar lines as well as a feed-in with light rail).  Coincidentally enough, if the full stretch to the zoo and back were implemented, it would be a route of roughly 7.9 miles, the same stretch of widening on I-75.

 

So we have critics carping on the profligacy of spending $185 million versus a whopping $800 million for freeway widening.  Why is it that highway construction in this country simply gets a free pass…like a necessary evil?  The rabble rousers can wave the pitchforks all day over $180 million for streetcars ("oh, the humanity….the outrage!"), but when someone writes a check for $800 million in freeway widenings nobody bats an eye?  [don't answer that—rhetorical question]  Just from a purely gut reaction, what would ultimately be more impressive in raising the profile of Cincinnati in comparison to its peer cities? Put yourself in the position of a first time visitor/tourist.  Does anyone drive through Atlanta on I-75 and think "I am really impressed by the number of lanes they have"?  Really?

 

Moreover, and not to get all bollixed up in the formulas and equations and stuff [insert eye glazing here], but some pretty detailed studies on the impact of the streetcars project a benefit-to-cost ratio of 2.7:1, compared to only 1.15:1 for the I-75 project.  If you want to crunch the empirical data, go to this link for more in-depth analysis.

 

If Cincinnatians are truly serious about moving the city forward and positioning this city as a desirable and attractive place for families, young professionals, the creative class (and pretty much everyone in between), then everyone needs to get behind the streetcar proposal. If you want to cling to a fading image of a post-industrial rust belt relic, then by all means, let's widen the freeways at the expense of streetcars.

 

Again, it bears repeating--$800 million for a wider freeway; $183 million for streetcars running from the river to UC to the hospitals to the zoo, connecting the city's two major employment centers as well as its largest university.  It's all about perspective.  Get on board folks, before the anti-streetcar posse pulls up the rails and points us squarely on the ever-widening and congested road to obsolescence.

 

For more information, please visit the following websites:

http://www.cincystreetcar.com/

http://cincystreetcar.wordpress.com/

http://cincinnati-oh.gov/city/downloads/city_pdf17434.pdf

http://www.protransit.com/Default.asp

 

When are people going to understand that the opposition to the streetcar is related to the overall picture of regional public transportation?  I don't care what anchors DT and UT, it doesn't get people who aren't already close downtown and it doesn't get people to our other regional job centers, such as up and down 71 and 75.  Also, the "wait and see" approach to the Banks and the streetcar are directly tied to the ineptitude of the local government over several decades.  Bottom line: the City has to gain the public trust back.  Chastizing citizens for this is counter-productive.  All the powers-that-be have to do is communicate CLEARLY with the public on their intentions, and keep on working.  If the plans are sound, then it will work, if not...

 

i dont believe that. in 7 years of living here i've never met, in person, anybody who actually knows whats going on downtown or around the city. when i mention the words metro moves people go "huh?" like they cant remember that far back. cincinnatians just dont take pride in their city mostly but im not so sure people actively disregard attempts at improvement...maybe previous influencial people yes but not so much the general public who seem lost in a fog. if this goes to popular vote i think it will overwhelmingly pass and i hope the naacp and coast get giant egg in their face

"Bottom line: the City has to gain the public trust back."

 

What are you proposing the City of Cincinnati do to get people's trust back?  Is it purely to do a better job communicating this project to the city residents?  I hope you're not suggesting doing nothing until the people of the entire region shed their inferiority complex and start realizing all the great things about the City of Cincinnati.

 

I've worked downtown for a decade and lived downtown for the last three years.  During the last three years the City of Cincinnati has done a lot to promote improvements:

1) The Gateway Quarter (as well as other portions of OTR) is building up nicely effectively repopulating a nearly deserted historic area of the city

2) A new skyscraper is being built for the first time in a very long time

3) Fountain Square has become a popular and friendly place to hang out

4) The School for Creative and Performing Arts is developing a brand new location

5) Crime is decreasing every year

6) The Banks project is finally getting off the ground

7) New restaurants, bars, clubs, shops, etc... have been popping up everywhere

 

With all this and more going on, I would expect more people jumping on board this project.  In my mind streetcars would further the momentum by increasing transit options within the urban core, serve as a permanent investment which would act as a development catalyst, and promote green living.  The studies I've seen so far have been well thought out and researched.  All I have seen to contradict them is social rhetoric, claims of science that have not been backed by any empirical evidence, and bizarre arguments about widening I-75.  I sincerely would like to get a better idea of the reasoning against this project.  Please post links to studies of rubber wheel trolley projects, studies of environmental impacts of streetcar development (I'm looking at you Green Party), anti-rail studies (please no O'Toole, but real studies backed by science), etc....  All I have got lately are smug individuals insinuating I am not intelligent enough to understand where my electricity comes from.  Please stop patronizing me and post/link the facts.

 

As it stands now, this streetcar project is a City of Cincinnati project serving the people of the city.  While I agree we need mass transit in the region, a majority of those outside the city do not believe as I do (or perhaps they just thought Metro Moves was not a good enough plan).  City Council cannot develop a regional transit plan without the support of the commuters who would use it the most.  I'd love to work with you or anyone else to help promote a regional plan, but for now all we have on the table is a small scale version - the streetcar.

Well i'm sure the city didn't vote 2-1. That was the whole county that bid 2-1.

I know there are plenty of people that still have no idea about Queen City Square going up.  The same for the school...and Gateway...and The Banks...and the Square to some extent, etc...

 

How does this change?  These people aren't going to inform themselves. 

I am beginning to realize we cannot expect others to promote the Cincinnati.  There are far too many talk show hosts, news organizations, bloggers, etc... out there with exurban, extremist and hateful bias.  I have tried to talk up Cincinnati with my family and friends (I think it has helped in some small way).  The only other idea I have is to flood the media with positive letters and comment posts that rise above the fray and avoid the stereotypical anti-Cincinnati rhetoric.

 

I mean, geeeeez, would it kill the local venom bloggers to at least on occasion promote some of the bright points in our city?  These guys are worse than channel 5 and Cunningham combined.

Well i'm sure the city didn't vote 2-1. That was the whole county that bid 2-1.

 

Exactly, that's why this is a project within the City's boundaries. If the City thought it was feasible to fund a city-wide streetcar network in one fell swoop they would probably try to do that. The reality is that most people, even city residents, won't be able to stomach a significant tax increase that would be needed to pay for such a large system all at once. This is why you build it in phases...and the most logical starting point is the commercial center and most densely populated area of the city (Downtown/OTR/Uptown).

 

I know there are plenty of people that still have no idea about Queen City Square going up. The same for the school...and Gateway...and The Banks...and the Square to some extent, etc...

 

How does this change? These people aren't going to inform themselves.

 

See:

http://www.UrbanCincy.com

http://www.CityKin.com

http://www.Building-Cincinnati.com

http://5chw4r7z.blogspot.com

http://www.BuyCincy.com

http://CincyStreetcar.wordpress.com

http://www.TheBanksBlog.com

 

Those are just a few to get started.

^ Our city is just going to have to plow ahead, plan this well, and execute the details flawlessly. It is going to have to lead by example.

 

It's happened before. People were really skeptical about the new Fort Washington Way, a twenty-five year project that got done in five years with international recognition. No one seems to complain about it now.

 

FWW made anything and everything that's happening on the riverfront possible. The problem was ... is ... the promoters of the new riverfront promise(d) unrealistic results, and we've been paying for the failure of expectations ever since.

dean,

 

just a thought; when in public restrooms and given the option, do you dry your hands with paper towels or the electric blower?

 

ahh, who am i kidding? I'm sure you're so eco-conscious you bring a towel with you everywhere you go to avoid these atrocious choices! 

Speaking of anti-Cincy comments, has anyone ever heard WLW radio say anything positive about the city?

^ Haha, I noticed that on WLW when someone calls from Kenwood, Blue Ash, Mason, Milford, Loveland, West Chester or Fairfield the host announces it, but everyone else is "calling from their cell phone".

How will Cincinnati's streetcar network fare in the American Recovery and Reinvestment Act of 2009?

 

* $8 billion for high-speed rail projects: Nope.

* $6.9 billion for new equipment for public transportation projects: Nope, streetcar or light-rail is not to the point of having aging equipment.

* $1.5 billion for competitive grants to state and local governments for transportation investments: A good possibility, and this could be used to match investments for Phase One or Two of the streetcar.

* $1.3 billion for Amtrak: Nope, but hey... we can use the high-speed bundle and get a decent network started in Ohio!

* $750 million for the construction of new public rail transportation systems: A good possibility...

* $750 million for the maintenance of existing public transportation systems: :(

Well I attempted to post on The Cincinnati Beacon.  But my post was "sent to a moderator for approval".  I wonder who that would be? 

 

 

 

    Here's where some of Cincinnati's electricity is generated from coal, just to help visualize it.

 

   

 

 

 

The first picture is of Miami Fort, a Duke Energy plant. It is included in the article posted above. It has the most recent emissions technologies installed. 3 units, 6,7, and 8 are operational. 7 and 8 are the two big horses with SCR and FGD. The plant has one large and several banks of cooling towers to lower the temperature of the water before putting it back in the Ohio. Usually this is not needed, but Tanners Creek(the next plant) is just down the river, so its inlet water temperature was too high after additions to Miami Fort. So, when looking at a power plant, the more "white"/cloud looking exhaust the better. This is either evaporating water from the cooling towers or from the FGD process. FGD uses lime/limestone and water to create a slurry to remove sulfur. Its the plants without large "clouds" of water vapor you should worry about. This picture must be a little old because it is showing the new stacks, but they are not functional. 7 and 8 fired back up last summer.

 

The second picture is Tanners Creek, an AEP plant. This is a much smaller plant. I am not sure of the emission controls, but in 2003, a new natural gas plant opened in front of Tanners, which has seen plenty of use through MISO. Natural gas is very clean and has a larger part in overall generation around Cincinnati.

I wonder what the Dean says about UC's decision to shut down its gas turbines at its power plant and buy power, made from coal, from Duke.  (Note: This news story was from a year ago and I don't the current status of the plant.)

I was at Mark Mallory's Young Professionals Kitchen Cabinet kickoff last night and the Mallory stated in no uncertain terms that the streetcar project was the number one project in the city right now.  He spent about half of his speech and Q/A discussing it.  He wanted us to get informed about the project and respectfully inform/educate people who are railing (sorry about the pun) against the project.  When asked about the project status he appeared eager to talk about it, but then looked over at his aides and said he was unable to discuss aspects publicly yet.  It did seem like there was a lot of movement we just don't know about yet.

I believe somebody said the City has interviewed the vendors for the RFQ by this point. They should know if someone has the funding in hand.  Does anyone know when they will be able to discuss next steps publicly?

 

I think they will have to rely on some Federal funding but I could be surprised.

Well, the fact that they were going after a Request for Qualifications before the stimulus package meant that either,

 

a) They were wanting this project to be 'shovel ready' in case there was an increase in rail funding by Obama,

b) They know that the last bit of funding is within reach.

^My guess would be the latter as every time this question has come up I have heard people from the City restate their intentions on not using federal money for the first phase.  With that said, if a lump sum were to come from the stimulus, you might see phase 1 (or phase 1a) increase in scope.  The overall tone though has been positive.

Well I attempted to post on The Cincinnati Beacon. But my post was "sent to a moderator for approval". I wonder who that would be?

 

 

A friend of mine tried to post on there last night and said he has never seen it show up.  He was going to try again today.  I told him to get signed up over here and not waste his time.

 

From my experience (except for once), they usually show up on the Beacon eventually.  Sometimes Mr. Moderator has better things to do then screen comments 24/7 (which begs the question, however, as to why comments need to be screened...isn't the Beacon where "Divergent Views Collide"?).

This subject came up in my debate with Jason Haap:

 

"Living in the country is not the right way to care for the Earth. The best thing that we can do for the planet is build more skyscrapers."

 

 

Read the article: http://www.city-journal.org/2009/19_1_green-cities.html

jason haag's  entire existance as a blogger  is powered by coal.  I wonder how much C02 is released from the burning of coal due to  running his servers 24/7?? Luckily his site is only frequented by locals for a laugh.  Hell... he just made me burn coal by logging on here to comment.. :x The more time he writes  negativley about the city, the more mountains are hacked up. Keep up the good work!

 

Well i'm sure the city didn't vote 2-1. That was the whole county that bid 2-1.

 

Exactly, that's why this is a project within the City's boundaries.  If the City thought it was feasible to fund a city-wide streetcar network in one fell swoop they would probably try to do that.  The reality is that most people, even city residents, won't be able to stomach a significant tax increase that would be needed to pay for such a large system all at once.  This is why you build it in phases...and the most logical starting point is the commercial center and most densely populated area of the city (Downtown/OTR/Uptown).

 

I know there are plenty of people that still have no idea about Queen City Square going up.  The same for the school...and Gateway...and The Banks...and the Square to some extent, etc...

 

How does this change?  These people aren't going to inform themselves.

 

See:

http://www.UrbanCincy.com

http://www.CityKin.com

http://www.Building-Cincinnati.com

http://5chw4r7z.blogspot.com

http://www.BuyCincy.com

http://CincyStreetcar.wordpress.com

http://www.TheBanksBlog.com

 

Those are just a few to get started.

 

How much of the Riverfront Development Plan is the City eating?  If two lines would cost $180 million, $800 million for a much bigger system is a do-able number with competent accountants drawing the schedule.  We all want what's best for the City, and a localized development isn't it.  It seems that most Cincinnatians really don't care whether or not it gets done, because most Cincinnatians can't utilize that line without automobile usage, so the price tag becomes an issue.  For Fairview and Clifton, it's HUGE.  I could see that are really turning around, and into the mixed-class eclectic eutopia it's supposed to be.  OTR?  Eh, I'm not sold on a complete 180 happening down there based on the complexities of that neighborhood, though a streetcar through the West End to Union Terminal, fanned out to Price Hill, Fairmount, through Camp Washington and on to Northside could help repopulate areas without the same pragmatic issues as OTR, and reconnect our oldest neighborhoods.  There's some great architecture in these areas as well that people would love to be exposed to if they had a reason to go over there.

^Once again, we didn't build the City's entire road network in one fell swoop, nor do we repair it in such a way.  Why is it all of a sudden feasible to do such a massive project for rail - or should I say, why is it expected?

Memo to Jason Haap and Justin Jeffre:

 

No electric rail system that has begun service in the United States since the end of World War II has ever gone out of business.

Also, I just spoke on the phone with the owner of the building at center on this map.  It's only a warehouse -- no manufacturing, so no big energy-consuming machinery.  And their annual electric bill is approximately $150,000, more than what's estimated for Phase 1 of the streetcar: 

 

 

Photos and graphics aren't too friendly to The Beacon's cause. 

Also, I just spoke on the phone with the owner of the building at center on this map. It's only a warehouse -- no manufacturing, so no big energy-consuming machinery. And their annual electric bill is approximately $150,000, more than what's estimated for Phase 1 of the streetcar:  

 

 

Photos and graphics aren't too friendly to The Beacon's cause.

 

 

 

... Jmeck, great point. I am eager to see their response.

Annual cost of electrical power to operate the Cincinnati Streetcar between 2nd and Main and University Plaza: $125,000  -- just confirmed by an engineer working on the project.

 

All together now: "The streetcar is not a large consumer of electricity."

 

By the way, the grease trolley idea ... not much there. First, you can only use a mix of about 10% "white grease" (that's what it's called) combined with the diesel fuel or it clogs the engine. Very problematic on cold days as it further congeals. A loss of power climbing hills. And it's expensive. Other than those drawbacks, plus the possibility that downtown may begin to smell like a fry-pit, it's a perfect solution for Cincinnati.

I listen to The Truckin' Bozo show with some regularity and truckers are having a lot of trouble with biodiesel clogging fuel lines.  It's definitely not a perfect fuel. 

 

Also, according to Jeffre, his biofuel trolley will use grease from area restaurants.  If he wanted to have a bigger impact on the environment, he should be promoting a vegetarian diet which wouldn't use the grease to begin with and wouldn't require methane-producing livestock.  Also, if his trolley is using the biofuel, that means something else isn't, and will have to use traditional fuel.  Doesn't seem very environmentally sustainable, economically sustainable, or socially sustainable to me. 

Photos and graphics aren't too friendly to The Beacon's cause. 

 

That must be the only reason the "Dean" is opposed to them.  His arguments that pictures should not be used make no sense to me.  In my Toastmasters group, people use pictures all the time while giving speeches.  People like to see them, and they can really drive home a point.

^

 

Melanie makes a key point. Rail opponents win by playing to peoples' fears of the unknown, what they can't visualize. So making it real is a great strategy. It's one of the reasons we take people to Portland all the time. Kind of hard to convince the people who've been there that what they saw there never really happened.

 

 

Also, I just spoke on the phone with the owner of the building at center on this map.  It's only a warehouse -- no manufacturing, so no big energy-consuming machinery.  And their annual electric bill is approximately $150,000, more than what's estimated for Phase 1 of the streetcar: 

 

Wow, I always wondered about the electric bill,  that's great! do you know how many KWH that would be?

I don't know but he actually offered to let me see the bill.  They are involved in the lawsuit against Duke and their bill went up $15-20K because of the rate hikes. 

 

Melanie makes a key point. Rail opponents win by playing to peoples' fears of the unknown, what they can't visualize. So making it real is a great strategy. It's one of the reasons we take people to Portland all the time. Kind of hard to convince the people who've been there that what they saw there never really happened.

 

Very true.  It was hard for me to understand the whole streetcar concept until I saw and experienced them firsthand.  Before that, I was hearing all about how they clog traffic and go so slow etc etc.  I didn't understand how this could work with a future light rail sytem.  That is why I'm sure 99% of the people who have taken the trip to Portland are streetcar supporters.  Many of those opposed really don't understand the purpose and operation.

 

Jason keeps talking about transportaion "getting people from where they are to where they want to go", and I once thought about transport similarly.  But that is a taxi service, not public transit. Obviously development and people follow transit infrastructure.  If you want a taxi, call a taxi.

Mayor Mallory first described public transportation as "getting people from where they are to where they want to go."  He's right. And the streetcar does that too, but it serves a market of customers who have chosen to live their lives in a tighter footprint. The streetcar acts as a circulator -- moving people with frequent service over short distances and contacting many destinations -- as opposed to the kind of corridor-level public transportation that we are most familiar with.

A co-worker of mine was a half hour late to work today because her bus never came....bus # 74 express.  Neither the bus before hers or the bus she rides came.  She said there were probably 100 people waiting there.