Bearcast Radio DJ tags buses for "creeps and weirdos".

 

Here is my response:

 

Thanks for publishing this article.  I don't think I've laughed out loud that hard in a long time!  Is this the best you can do?

 

My exact quote was "OUR POP CULTURE has portrayed busses as a place for creeps and weirdos."  You proved my point by linking to that ad.  I was actually quoting that exact advertisement.

 

At 14:35, I say, "I wish that we didn't have this problem."

 

Yet again, "The Dean" has totally missed the point.  I don't view busses that way.  You don't view busses that way.  John Schneider doesn't view busses that way.  But, the reality is that a lot of people do view busses that way!

 

Will a trolleybus system be exempt from these preconceived notions?  If so, how?

I'm all for "fair and balanced" debate, and unlike Fox News I actually mean it. But Dean brings little value to the arguement, and like Fox, he's chosen to deliberately misquote people to further his own goals.

 

Dean, I honestly can't decide if you're a left wing nut job, or a right wing nut job, but...well, nevermind.

 

One thing is for sure - you definitely like to stick yourself smack in the middle of imagined 'controversies.'  It makes me glad, that in spite of your fear mongering and not-so-hidden anti-urban Cincinnati agenda, that the 'Nati has built up such positive momentum that nothing you or your arrogant and narcissistic buddies do can possibly derail it.

 

PUN INTENDED.

The first loop of the streetcar route is already developed. Aronoff, Fountain Square, Cadillac Ranch, and so forth. Vine Street in OTR, Gateway Quarter, and all the buildings already under redevelopment. Washington Park, the new SCPA -- all of it. Without a streetcar.

 

So what, is the streetcar going to make them develop all this again?

 

Do you REALLY believe that there is nothing left to develop downtown? No surface lots? No under-utilized buildings? No more additional population that can be gained?

 

You are beyond all reason.

This thread is meant to be a place to share information and engage in respectful discussion about that information.  Sharing opinionated blog posts is not productive to this end.  The same goes for personal attacks/accusations against other people whether they are for or against the project.  Trolling is not productive and spamming is certainly not productive.

 

I'm not a fan of moderation, never have and never will be, but if this thread gets derailed again then I will clean it up to a point of reasonable discussion and informative data.  I encourage everyone to get their acts together before then so that I don't have to use such authority.  Thanks.

I encourage everyone to get their acts together before then so that I don't have to use such authority. 

LIKE OK! MR CYBER POPO. 

I just passed one of those trolley thingys on 5th st about 20 minutes ago. I have to say I was emabarrased just seeing it. Mainly because I have a "support cincinnati streetcars" sticker on my back window, I sped away so that nobody around me would see my sticker and think I was supporting one of those tire trolleys...  :oops: It was empty, and was belching smoke, and no it didn't smell like french fries. That is all I have to report.  Trooleys suck and streetcars rule!

I've got your back, UncleRando. He is cyber popo and so am I. Please be respectful of others so these REMOVE and MODIFY buttons of ours don't get used.

Mr Dean,

After reading and seeing the "Winburn Report"

 

I have 2 questions

 

1) is it handicap accessible? Can a couple of wheelchairs go on at once? I have friends that will need this service to ride.  ADA

 

2) Does it lose it's brakes when it stalls??

 

My wife and I were on this  bus about 30 seconds before it crashed. We had just gotten off  at the crest on Mulberry st when it stalled, it almost ran over us as we were walking across the street. I was the first on the scene, to help the injured some of which as of today are still "disabled" You could not PAY ME to ever step on a shuttle/trolley that rides on a hill  ever again.

 

 

http://www.enquirer.com/editions/2004/06/07/loc_loc1abus.html

I'm with ya Rando & KJP.  This thread too often has a tendency to get way off topic and entirely too personal.... though it is clearly one of the most (if not THE most) active thread on U-OH.....and deservedly so.

The "Winburn Report" looks like the final project for a high school word processing class, one that would have gotten an F at my alma mater. 

Dean, please tell us why people from Ohio who move to New York City photograph themselves on the subway but people from New York City who live here don't photograph themselves on our city buses. 

 

These are all people I went to college with in Ohio who now live in New York City riding the New York Subway.  Do they look like creeps & weirdos?

 

Has anyone ever seen UC students dressed up to ride the Metro?

 

 

 

 

A girl I know taking her gradeschool class on the subway.  Would parents in Cincinnati allow their children to ride Metro buses on a field trip? 

 

 

Wow Maximillian!  What did that thing look like BEFORE the crash?  Was it just like any other Metro bus?

^ I think we'd all agree that we need streetcars asap to bring the girls in that first picture back to Cincy ;)

What did that thing look like BEFORE the crash? Was it just like any other Metro bus?

No, It was a small (engine in back) shuttle bus, about the same size as Winburns Trolley.

 

    Now that the board has settled down a bit, I would like to bring up a new point.

 

    In my opinion, there is only one legitimate argument against the streetcar, and that is that it will be underutilized. The study shows that if Over-the-Rhine is redeveloped, then the ridership will support the cost. But what if Over-the-Rhine is not developed? How confindent are we that it will work?

 

    There are 90 acres of parking lots in the area to be served by the streetcar. I would love to see those sites redeveloped as much as anyone. But there is a problem that hasn't been mentioned yet.

 

    Those 90 acres are served by combined sewers. The combined sewers lead to the Mill Creek, which flows into the Ohio River. Combined sewers are now considered an old-fashioned design, built before wastewater was treated, but they are still in service. The combined sewers are intercepted and treated only on dry weather days. If it is raining, the rainwater mixed with wastewater overflows into the Mill Creek.

 

    The Ohio EPA is reluctant to allow development served by combined sewers. It can be done, but with difficulty. They usually want the developer to compensate, by making improvements to the sewer system. Sometimes the developer will walk away before the project really gets going.

 

    Every single one of those 90 acres is going to face this issue.

 

    Politically, the Metro Moves plan failed in Hamilton County, but did OK in the city. It seems that the streetcar plan may do OK in the city. But, the Metropolitan Sewer District is controlled by Hamilton County. I would not expect the county to be willing to make improvements in Over-the-Rhine.

 

    Construction of new sewers is going to be difficult in that area. One reason is that the new sewer will have to cross I-75. Another reason is that there are a lot of existing utilities to work around, including, ironically, old streetcar rails.

 

    The worse case is that the streetcar may be built, but the 90 acres will never be developed due to sewer issues. Existing buildings could still be rehabbed, though.

 

    Believe me, I want to see the streetcar. However, I'm skeptical.

 

    Anyone else know more about this issue?

 

 

 

   

Dean, please tell us why people from Ohio who move to New York City photograph themselves on the subway but people from New York City who live here don't photograph themselves on our city buses. 

 

These are all people I went to college with in Ohio who now live in New York City riding the New York Subway.  Do they look like creeps & weirdos?

 

Has anyone ever seen UC students dressed up to ride the Metro?

 

 

 

 

A girl I know taking her gradeschool class on the subway.  Would parents in Cincinnati allow their children to ride Metro buses on a field trip? 

 

 

 

that's my nearest subway stop. I'll be on the lookout for these characters.

 

    Now that the board has settled down a bit, I would like to bring up a new point.

 

    In my opinion, there is only one legitimate argument against the streetcar, and that is that it will be underutilized. The study shows that if Over-the-Rhine is redeveloped, then the ridership will support the cost. But what if Over-the-Rhine is not developed? How confindent are we that it will work?

 

     There are 90 acres of parking lots in the area to be served by the streetcar. I would love to see those sites redeveloped as much as anyone. But there is a problem that hasn't been mentioned yet.

 

     Those 90 acres are served by combined sewers. The combined sewers lead to the Mill Creek, which flows into the Ohio River. Combined sewers are now considered an old-fashioned design, built before wastewater was treated, but they are still in service. The combined sewers are intercepted and treated only on dry weather days. If it is raining, the rainwater mixed with wastewater overflows into the Mill Creek.

 

    The Ohio EPA is reluctant to allow development served by combined sewers. It can be done, but with difficulty. They usually want the developer to compensate, by making improvements to the sewer system. Sometimes the developer will walk away before the project really gets going.

 

     Every single one of those 90 acres is going to face this issue.

 

     Politically, the Metro Moves plan failed in Hamilton County, but did OK in the city. It seems that the streetcar plan may do OK in the city. But, the Metropolitan Sewer District is controlled by Hamilton County. I would not expect the county to be willing to make improvements in Over-the-Rhine.

 

     Construction of new sewers is going to be difficult in that area. One reason is that the new sewer will have to cross I-75. Another reason is that there are a lot of existing utilities to work around, including, ironically, old streetcar rails.

 

     The worse case is that the streetcar may be built, but the 90 acres will never be developed due to sewer issues. Existing buildings could still be rehabbed, though.

 

     Believe me, I want to see the streetcar. However, I'm skeptical.

 

     Anyone else know more about this issue?

 

 

 

    

 

Isn't the county mandated by the feds to switch all of our combined sewers over to separated sewers?  So if improvements are made to the site, don't they have to improve the sewers?  I admit, I know little about the subject but I thought this mandate was going on.   

Re sewers:

1.  The hundreds of vacant buildings can continue using their existing sewer taps when and if they are rehabbed.  No problem.

2.  For new construction, MSD requires them to retain the rainwater and discharge it at a slow rate.  This makes the sytem better than an existing parking lot, which just washes all the rainwater straight down the storm/combined system.  The new retention systems I have seen in OTR are underground, big plastic pipes that can hold thousands of gallons of rainwater from parking and roofs.  The discharge pipe is small and it will be draining for hours after the rain has stopped.

Interesting point.  I had hoped that urban sewage system upgrades would fall under the heading of infrastructure in Obama's stimulus plan.  Anyone know if that's true, and if so, if such an upgrade is one of the projects the city/county are requesting funding for?

Actually, I think this benefits the city in general and the streetcar in particular. Less clearing of forests, fewer and narrower roads, less roof area, and all the kinds of things you get from dense development. There will be less stormwater runoff.

Add rain water collection systems to the mix (rain barrels) which can be used to water small garden plots for the new residents.  This will help reduce stormwater in the system.  OTR could be the greenest neighborhood in the city. 

I've read the trolley document from the Windburn report.  Below are my questions/concerns if anyone has any answers.

 

1)  I am assuming this document is a just a crude preliminary.  It seems like it is saying what a trolley system is not versus what it is.  There are some very basic numbers, but on the whole seems to be a document sniping the streetcar versus any facts of what a trolley can do for the city (and the bizarre "Expect negative criticism from proponents of streetcar trolley" as a trolley negative?).  Anyone know if there is any more meat on these bones?

 

2)  Isn't the following just a suggested change to Metro/SORTA?  How is this related to a trolley system and not just retooling Metro with new busses/routes?

"The trolleys are flexible enough whereby they can be implemented and connected to any city neighborhood. The trolleys can be used to promote the neighborhood business districts. The trolleys can be used to connect citizens who live in city neighborhoods but work in Tri-county, Springdale, West Chester and Mason. This can be a great energy efficient form of transportation to improve the quality of life for all citizens living in Cincinnati."

 

3)  Has anyone from SORTA weighed in or been included in on this?

 

4)  Has there been any interest in sponsoring this trolley (or the streetcar)?  I know this probably couldn't be confirmed, but anyone who can at least attest to interest in either would be something.

 

5)  Which local people/groups support this idea?  Anyone come out for the concept other than Winburn?

 

All in all, I'm pretty disappointed in the lack of details and the claim that "[t]here is no concrete way of projecting significant economic impact, ridership,increased tourism, new momentum or new energies until we test it for two years with the trolleys" especially since there have been such extensive economic studies on the streetcar.  With so little support from the community I guess it isn't surprising that there hasn't been the money put into researching this idea...  Ben....

All in all, I'm pretty disappointed in the lack of details and the claim that "[t]here is no concrete way of projecting significant economic impact, ridership,increased tourism, new momentum or new energies until we test it for two years with the trolleys" especially since there have been such extensive economic studies on the streetcar. 

 

That quote is pretty telling. They're basically saying they have no faith in economic impact studies or any type of rigorous analysis. "We'll just have to see what happens"......

^ A two year test doesn't really prove anything. If you were a developer, would you build based on a two year trial project? Chances are, your development won't even be ready in two years!

    On sewers: Yes, MSD has provisions for connecting storm water runoff into combined sewers. But this would be different. Development of 90 acres would add a lot of toilets to the combined sewer system, which would connect to the Mill Creek in wet weather. The EPA frowns on this.

 

    The environmental benefits of high density are unquestionalbe, but the EPA doesn't see it that way. They see that more toilets are connected to the Mill Creek, which flows into the Ohio River.

 

    MSD is under a consent order that says that the combined sewer overflows need to be addressed, at a cost of $2 billion. However, nothing has been done so far except some very preliminary planning.

 

    Why doesn't someone call up MSD and say that we want to build 10,000 units or whatever the number is in Over-the-Rhine and ask if they will allow it?

 

 

 

 

3) Has anyone from SORTA weighed in or been included in on this?

 

 

I believe Mr. Winburn is being advised (poorly) by an anti-rail member of the SORTA board.

^Does his first name rhyme with "even" and his last name with "do is?"

All in all, I'm pretty disappointed in the lack of details and the claim that "[t]here is no concrete way of projecting significant economic impact, ridership,increased tourism, new momentum or new energies until we test it for two years with the trolleys" especially since there have been such extensive economic studies on the streetcar.  With so little support from the community I guess it isn't surprising that there hasn't been the money put into researching this idea...  Ben....

 

The trolley idea would doom the streetcar from the get-go.  Should it fail, then everyone will say "I told you so" and it would lead to no streetcar.  If it succeeded, then Winburn and his cohorts would come out and say "I told you so" and continue to run that service as opposed to running rails and a real streetcar.  The trial would become the reality, except with no development around it.

 

It's astounding that Winburn doesn't understand the concept of permanence.

    On sewers: Yes, MSD has provisions for connecting storm water runoff into combined sewers. But this would be different. Development of 90 acres would add a lot of toilets to the combined sewer system, which would connect to the Mill Creek in wet weather. The EPA frowns on this.

 

    The environmental benefits of high density are unquestionalbe, but the EPA doesn't see it that way. They see that more toilets are connected to the Mill Creek, which flows into the Ohio River.

 

    MSD is under a consent order that says that the combined sewer overflows need to be addressed, at a cost of $2 billion. However, nothing has been done so far except some very preliminary planning.

 

    Why doesn't someone call up MSD and say that we want to build 10,000 units or whatever the number is in Over-the-Rhine and ask if they will allow it? 

 

I don't have the exact numbers in front of me, but there are about 600 sewer credits (1 credit is equal to 4 typical residential properties) currently available in the district (includes UC, OTR, and a few other neighborhoods).  This does not include credits available on existing vacant properties as JSkinner mentioned.

 

Credits can be added by projects that reduce both sanitary and storm water amounts.  There are a number of projects that could be done with existing buildings in the district that would add hundreds of credits for only a few hundred thousand dollars.  Permeable paving, greywater systems, green roofs, stormwater retention, and water reducing fixtures are all ways to reduce loads into the system, and can be incorporated into renovations and new construction.

 

This is not an insurmountable problem.

^

 

The opponents will try to make it one.

 

See:

 

http://www.cincinnatibeacon.com/index.php/contents/comments/sewers_clog_development/

 

They will flog this dead horse for a while just as they've tried to do with the electric power argument.

 

Sooner or later, they will run out of arguments. Or credibility. Probably both.

Critics Say Mallory Focused On Wrong Neighborhoods

 

UPDATED: 6:19 pm EST February 19, 2009

CINCINNATI -- As jobs are lost, help is on the way.

 

Mayor Mark Mallory will meet Friday with President Barack Obama to help direct billions of dollars from the stimulus package to the Tri-state area.

 

Mallory said his meeting was vital for the local economy, but one of his critics said the mayor was placing a priority on the wrong projects.

The mayor has said he'd like to spend money to help widen sidewalks and bury utility lines in Mount Adams, but neighborhoods such as Walnut Hills have been left off the drawing board.

 

"We need the revitalization of Peebles Corner," said Chris Smitherman, local chapter president of the NAACP. "Mount Auburn needs resources desperately, Bond Hill, Evanston (and) Roselawn. These are communities that City Council and the mayor have been underinvesting in."

 

Smitherman said it would be foolhardy to pursue $12 million for a streetcar proposal that could then be derailed in November by voters.

But Mallory has so far declined to modify his wish list, and he said he knew what he would ask the president.

 

 

"How is that money actually going to be allocated, how will it be prioritized and how will it move to the cities?" Mallory said he would ask.

 

Sen. Sherrod Brown provided a possible answer to some of those questions, saying that the money would be allocated quickly – possibly within days.

 

"There's already been a project in Missouri started," Brown said. "They're moving it as fast as the governors can get it moving."

 

Officials hope to bring $300 million and 4,000 jobs to the Cincinnati area, but they warned that much could happen to change either number

 

http://www.wlwt.com/money/18753338/detail.html

 

What I've been saying the whole time.  Smitherman isn't as crazy as people think.

 

    Don't get me wrong! I'm not trying to make the sewers into an insurmountable problem. I'm just saying that it's an issue that it is better to identify earlier rather than later.

 

    600 credits is good news. If I'm not mistaken, that means we can start with 600 units before we have to modify the sewer system. Thanks for the info.

Critics Say Mallory Focused On Wrong Neighborhoods

 

UPDATED: 6:19 pm EST February 19, 2009

CINCINNATI -- As jobs are lost, help is on the way.

 

Mayor Mark Mallory will meet Friday with President Barack Obama to help direct billions of dollars from the stimulus package to the Tri-state area.

 

Mallory said his meeting was vital for the local economy, but one of his critics said the mayor was placing a priority on the wrong projects.

The mayor has said he'd like to spend money to help widen sidewalks and bury utility lines in Mount Adams, but neighborhoods such as Walnut Hills have been left off the drawing board.

 

 

 

http://www.wlwt.com/money/18753338/detail.html

 

What I've been saying the whole time.  Smitherman isn't as crazy as people think.

 

Right... it would be foolhardy to invest $12 million in an area of Cincinnati that has very low occupancy. This type of investment would increase occupancy in the neighborhood, lead to a larger tax-base, and increase tax revenue for the city, thus allowing for a greater ability for the city to invest in this, and other neighborhood.

600 credits is good news. If I'm not mistaken, that means we can start with 600 units before we have to modify the sewer system. Thanks for the info.

 

2400 residential units (600 credits x 4 residential units per credit)

NAACP: No Confidence in Mallory

Posted by JanePrendergast at 2/23/2009 1:44 PM EST on Cincinnati.com 

 

The NAACP's executive committee voted Thursday that it has no confidence in Mayor Mark Mallory. The full membership will take up the issue this Thursday, 6 p.m. at South Avondale School.

 

President Christopher Smitherman says in his release about the vote:

 

"The release of the Cincinnati SBE (Small Business Enterprise) numbers that showed that African American businesses were left out of the economic fabric was the last straw for the Executive Committee.  Please explain how the city has an African American Mayor, an African American City Manager, 2 African American Council members and the city spend $146 million on professional services and African Americans get nothing." 

 

The group invited the mayor to speak to the membership before their vote.

 

"The branch is drawing a line in the sand," Smitherman wrote. "I understand picking your battles but when you do not take a position on anything it does not show strong leadership."

 

No immediate word from Mallory on whether he'll address the group.

 

http://news.cincinnati.com/apps/pbcs.dll/section?Category=blog02&plckController=Blog&plckScript=blogScript&plckElementId=blogDest&plckBlogPage=BlogViewPost&plckPostId=Blog%3aec38bb2b-982e-46ba-819a-da01a547e8eaPost%3a343508d8-7814-4d1b-9910-4dd30939addb&s

 

More inarticulate babble from Smitherman.  The use of "Please explain to me..." and "Drawing a line in the sand..." have no place in a formal press release.  How the NAACP continues to let this guy embarrass himself and that organization is beyond me.

 

If I'm Mallory, I say that I won't address the NAACP, as it would make them look like fools if he did.  I'd insist that they replace Smitherman with someone dedicated to their mission.

 

And I wasn't aware that the Mayor answered to the local chapter of the NAACP.  I guess since he does, he'd better watch out for his job! :roll:

^Agreed.  But in my experience, most special interest groups (NAACP included) think that every public figure answers to them. 

 

More disturbing to me is this line:

 

Please explain how the city has an African American Mayor, an African American City Manager, 2 African American Council members and the city spend $146 million on professional services and African Americans get nothing." 

 

I'm not exactly sure what he means by "African Americans get nothing", but expecting special treatment from public officials because they share your race seems like the worst kind of political impropriety to me.

^Agreed.  But in my experience, most special interest groups (NAACP included) think that every public figure answers to them. 

 

More disturbing to me is this line:

 

Please explain how the city has an African American Mayor, an African American City Manager, 2 African American Council members and the city spend $146 million on professional services and African Americans get nothing." 

 

I'm not exactly sure what he means by "African Americans get nothing", but expecting special treatment from public officials because they share your race seems like the worst kind of political impropriety to me.

 

And is a form of racism; expecting preferential treatment because of your race.

^Agreed. But in my experience, most special interest groups (NAACP included) think that every public figure answers to them.

 

More disturbing to me is this line:

 

Please explain how the city has an African American Mayor, an African American City Manager, 2 African American Council members and the city spend $146 million on professional services and African Americans get nothing."

 

I'm not exactly sure what he means by "African Americans get nothing", but expecting special treatment from public officials because they share your race seems like the worst kind of political impropriety to me.

 

And is a form of racism; expecting preferential treatment because of your race.

 

Would any public official actually say that to ANY racial group?  The Republicans might but then they'd be painted as race-baiting racists.  Think about it.

It is abundantly clear the greatest mistake the voters of Cincinnati have ever made (and we've made some humdingers) was electing Smitherman. He is a kind of hustler of worst sort.

^ I actually made a signifcant contribution to his first campaign. Mea culpa.

$400 million trolley system ??

 

http://coast-usa.blogspot.com/search/label/Streetcar

It costs $120 million according to their Jan 18 post, directly below. 

 

Perhaps there should be a competing petition which will require a public vote for any city service using biodiesel, grease, etc. 

 

 

 

 

The NAACP was founded because American blacks were not receiving the legal and social representation they should have been receiving.  This is still true in modern day America, particularly Cincinnati.  He brings up a valid point - when is the city going to realize that it is half-black and absolutely has to make some concessions on what the black community might want done in this city, not just the ideas created by bureaucrats and pushed by black politicians.

You mean, eradicate bed bugs and install speed bumps to foster economic development?

^^WTF?????????  Are you for real?

 

We are officially going to start going backwards in this city if led by this "supposed" leader and his personal agenda and ideology!!

 

Explain to me again WHY this wouldn't benefit the half black population?    What percentage of that population rides mass transit now?    How does a streetcar, all of the sudden signalize a racist move on the city's behalf?

 

The oppositions arguments are SOOOOOO weak!!!  I have an entire office of suburbanites in Evendale laughing about this right now!

 

I mean seriously, coal, sewers, more busses (trolleys), painted lines, and a racist city government comprised of black leaders?

 

I am just dying to hear what's next!

City Blights will never be pleased.  Despite whatever work he does, he continualy bashes the city, and makes ignorant claims about Cincinnati.

Smitherman got elected because he sounded like the eminently reasonable politician that could get lots of support from the PRidge, NAvondale, Clifton folks and then he was transformed by something . . . don't know if it was power or what. I understand the NAACP is supposed to be working for the A/A community, but improving a majority A/A neighborhood by providing high quality transit options would strike me as the quintessential benefit for the community. The city has also invested a substantial amount in improving Bond Hill through the redevelopment around the Swifton Commons area. The entire city is also in the process of essentially rebuilding every school building in the city which is of special benefit to the majority A/A school district.

^All eminently reasonable, but Smitherman is all about gimmicks.  He seems to desire prominence without responsibility.  I seriously doubt that he has more support among African-Americans in Cincinnati than Mark Mallory does.

 

Regarding the Streetcar specifically, I'd say that those on the fence might be wary of the plan in that it doesn't directly address how the streetcar is going to get up to Clifton.  I think that if that were more explicit, some folks might feel more secure that it will actually end up there.

Sorry to bust in again, but I'm really interested in this project and the surrounding issues.  It is striking how racial arguments against building rail can take such divergent positions.  Whenever there is a proposal to expand rail in Cleveland, one of the suburbs that would be served by it argues that rail service would invite "undesirables," who until that point had presumably never heard of their town.  They also grouse about money being spent on rail to help these "other" people.

 

In Cincinnati it seems like almost the opposite racial argument.  There is a sense that rail would somehow only benefit whites or the well-to-do.  I never thought I'd hear such a thing.  Of course, it probably does no good to tell them that racists elsewhere tend to oppose rail and urban advocacy groups tend to support it. 

 

Has anyone heard anything about reaction among national advocacy groups to the anti-rail arguments being made in Cincinnati?  The stance seems so out of step with... everything, I wonder if they may be due for some backlash. 

^

 

The opponents will try to make it one.

 

See:

 

http://www.cincinnatibeacon.com/index.php/contents/comments/sewers_clog_development/

 

They will flog this dead horse for a while just as they've tried to do with the electric power argument.

 

Sooner or later, they will run out of arguments. Or credibility. Probably both.

 

Is that all you can do?  Insult us pesky little dissenters with our bothersome questions?

Dean,

 

Can I get 2 wheelchairs on your trolley bus at once? Just wondering.

Thanks