March 12, 200916 yr The old streetcar tracks from the Cincinnati Street Railway Company were wide gage and would not be compatible with current standard gage streetcars. I believe they would need to be removed where the new tracks would be located to prevent stray current leakage as well as to physically remove them for the new track slab. I believe most if not all of the planned streetcar route has existing tracks which would need to be removed along portions trackway which have not already been removed for utility work etc.
March 12, 200916 yr The Last Word What's a streetcar that runs in downtown and uptown going to do for me? http://www.cinweekly.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20090310/COL03/903110314/1068/ENT0104 For starters, it will help to convey a new image of our city. Downtown has already come a long way from the stereotypes most Cincinnatians cling to, and the streetcar can complete the process. Crime is already way down (the central business district has the lowest stats in the city), and new establishments and activities abound around Fountain Square and the Gateway Quarter, where we have prudently invested in a revamp. The streetcar can bring that type of revitalization to the entire downtown basin. It will give professionals who will be increasingly taking jobs on Pill Hill an option to live near where they work, removing commuting from many a hectic life. It will give people the option of living a vibrant and multicultural urban lifestyle that many individuals leave the city to seek. The streetcar will spur development in an area that has enormous potential. It will help to save the largest collection of Italianate architecture in the country. There are a very large number of vacant and underutilized buildings in Over-the-Rhine that can be rehabbed to provide nice housing for folks of all economic strata. This gives us the opportunity to invest the money we currently have stuffed in mattresses or low-rate CDs. The streetcar will lessen the need for parking on and near the route, making investing in higher-density housing more feasible. It can remove the need for people to own a car at all. Residents of Cincinnati can choose to live in an environment that does not require an automobile. Everything one needs is already in downtown and uptown - except convenient, well-thought-out public transportation. We can save thousands of dollars a year by not having the expense of an auto. It will give the entire city a new reason to be proud of where we live. Not only will we have an excellent symphony, opera, modern dramatic venues, arts institutes, examples of modern and classic architecture, standard and unique shopping establishments and everything else downtown and uptown have to offer, we'll also have a way to conveniently connect all those locations. We can boast of how we spend entire weekends without ever starting a petroleum-spewing automobile. We will be at the leading edge of the growing movement to re-populate our cities for environmental reasons as well as social ones. Living in more dense population centers decreases the overall amount of energy it takes to run our daily lives. We'll travel shorter distances because the things we need will be near at hand. We'll be able to brag about knowing our neighbors and how we know so many people on our streets, unlike the typical suburban neighborhood. It will increase the tax base of the city, making more funds available to upgrade our hundred-year-old sewers, parks, streets and other infrastructure. In conclusion, the streetcar project will help make our city a better place for everyone in it. Chris Wiedeman is the owner of UtiliKris, LLC, a kilt wearing downtown resident and booster.
March 12, 200916 yr I have posted my photos from Portland in a variety of threads. In short, I believe Portland doesn't just live up to the hype, it exceeds it. It's easily the best example of how new-start rail can work in a mid-sized American city. It has an uncanny resemblance to Cincinnati in many ways, and it certainly resembles Cincinnati more than Columbus, Indianapolis, or Louisville. Its downtown is not nearly as corporate as is Cincinnati's, but it's definitely more active at all hours because thousands more live there. There are also zero vacant buildings along the streetcar and hardly any empty storefronts. There are also few surface parking lots, probably less than 5 visible from the streetcar route as compared to dozens in Cincinnati. It's quite obvious that the Skoda modern streetcars would work well in Cincinnati. The only technical issue is the performance of the streetcars on any of Cincinnati's hills, since the Portland streetcar does not climb any comparable hills. It does have one hill which slopes about 8% for one or two blocks and I didn't find standing on it to be uncomfortable at all. The ride is much smoother than a city bus so standing on a metro bus traveling up or down Vine or Clifton Ave. isn't a comparable example. I think the Skoda vehicles are quite attractive, and do a great job not seeming as large as they are. Also the paint jobs are mostly fantastic -- the bright colors look great but the few darker cars did not. The blue Portland car and purple Seattle car did not look good, especially under cloudy skies. I'm not sure if there's something keeping them from doing advertising wraps but I'd hope a sponsored Cincinnati Reds or Bengals car could be wrapped. Downtown Portland: http://www.urbanohio.com/forum2/index.php/topic,18657.0.html South Waterfront: http://www.urbanohio.com/forum2/index.php/topic,18658.0.html Pearl District: http://www.urbanohio.com/forum2/index.php/topic,18659.0.html MAX light rail: http://www.urbanohio.com/forum2/index.php/topic,18660.0.html Portland Aerial Tram: http://www.urbanohio.com/forum2/index.php/topic,18656.0.html
March 12, 200916 yr Jake (or anyone who knows), is the grade up Warsaw Avenue via the Waldvogel Viaduct comparable to Gilbert? It seems so, but I don't know exactly how to check
March 12, 200916 yr According to this map, streetcars once traveled up both Elberon and Warsaw, and obviously the Price Hill Incline as well. Warsaw is definitely steeper than Elberon and apparently used the strange switchback that is still there. But Warsaw feeds into the 8th St. Viaduct, not 6th St. Also the 8th St. viaduct is planned to be replaced sometime around 2030, which complicates things. http://homepage.mac.com/jjakucyk/Transit1/map70.jpeg
March 13, 200916 yr Read that the mayor is in DC lobbying for 75 million in the next transportation bill for the streetcar. Also no stimulus funding from OKI either and with no announcement for the results of the City's RFQ for vendors it appears that funding is still lacking in the short term. Perhaps money from the State may be forthcoming in this years budget.
March 13, 200916 yr I've been reading a lot on the fear of crime in the 60s and 70s (in NYC and Philly). The number one place that everyone feared for their lives was on the subway - far and away. However, streetcars have none of the intrinsic problems that subways have with underground crime. In fact, their integration into the urban environment makes them likely safer than walking along the street. Perhaps it is relevant to ask, "Why were streetcars discontinued in the first place?" Was crime a factor?
March 14, 200916 yr GM, Firestone and Standard Oil were factors: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_American_streetcar_scandal
March 14, 200916 yr I know that the Great American Streetcar Scandal disabled many cities streetcar networks, but I never found Cincinnati on the NCL list. I wonder if Cincy was going with the trend of getting rid of streetcars or what? It's a shame what Standard Oil, GM and Firestone did to ruin mass transit and force our reliance on automobiles. “All truly great thoughts are conceived while walking.” -Friedrich Nietzsche
March 14, 200916 yr The potted history was that Cincinnati had used the streetcar system in a very political manner by holding down fares all through the 20s and 30s. They neglected to make basic investments in cars and the like, which meant by the time you get to the postwar period, there were going to need to do a total overhaul and even w/out the manipulation by car/oil, folks saw buses and cars as the 'progressive' thing to do. Add the fact that the system no longer served as much of the population who were quickly redistributing themselves throughout the region.
March 14, 200916 yr ^ I agree with this account. National City Lines, at its peak, only owned about 10% of the nation's streetcar systems, though they did own some of the largest. Owning the largest ones probably sent a signal that there wouldn't be much innovation down the road because the largest markets would no longer be available to purchase it. Sort of like the reason the American auto industry has, for years, been fighting to prevent large, mostly western, states from adopting more stringent fuel efficiency standards. If they have to build a special car for California, Oregon and Washington, economies of scale may make them have to build it for the entire country. The Streetcar Conspiracy makes a good story, and it often gets repeated, but NCL was far from being the sole factor for the nation's streetcars (mostly) going away. Politicians' limiting fare increases of the privately-owned streetcar companies, requirements that they pay property and franchise taxes on their operations, physical decay, and changing ridership during the Depression and WWII had more to do with it and collectively set the stage for what appeared to be a superior solution: the auto economy. Now the tables are turning. Similar factors are closing in on the highway economy, and so historians may be writing parallel explanations of its demise in thirty or forty years. They may be attributing the fall of the highway economy to legislators' unwillingness to raise gas taxes, the imposition of tolls everywhere, the daunting cost of maintaining and expanding highways, and the decreasing desire and financial ability of many Americans to travel as often and as far. Plus, the availability of car-competitive alternatives like rail. Be interesting to see how this plays out over time.
March 14, 200916 yr google earth has elevations These are not always so accurate, for the best precision use CAGIS (for Hamilton County): http://cagis.hamilton-co.org/map/cagis.htm
March 16, 200916 yr Streetcar operating costs will dwarf capital outlay Posted by LettersEditor at 3/15/2009 2:25 PM EDT on Cincinnati.com Assistant Editorial Page Editor Ray Cooklis’ perceptions on the fantasy world of stimulus are on the mark (“Welcome to federal stimulus ‘fantasy land,’” March 12). In the blog by Malia Rulon “Mallory in DC asking for $$” (March 12), the mayor’s budgeting of $83 million of one-time capital for streetcar spending (including stimulus). But that’s only the beginning. Operating costs will dwarf the capital costs, and that will compete with basic necessaries in the city budget. I hope the citizens are getting a balanced picture of this luxury we are about to be saddled with. Tom Luken College Hill http://news.cincinnati.com/apps/pbcs.dll/section?Category=edit0202&plckController=Blog&plckScript=blogScript&plckElementId=blogDest&plckBlogPage=BlogViewPost&plckPostId=Blog%3ae8ab9c9c-3e4b-46b9-a08d-a17c4ecdcdc7Post%3ac1a95bbf-8bdd-4981-a865-724f85ea912b&sid=sitelife.cincinnati.com I love how there is no statistics/numbers/facts/even conjecture used to back up his statement. :lol:
March 16, 200916 yr Streetcars, neighborhoods in Memphis pretty emptyPosted by LettersEditor at 3/15/2009 10:11 AM EDT on Cincinnati.com We went to Memphis; my wife and our friends rode that renowned city’s historic streetcar system between 4 and 5 p.m., on a Tuesday, which happened to be Mardi Gras in the blues capital of the world. The two cars that we sat in were old but functional, and the interiors were made of a beautiful light-colored wood that had been kept in remarkable shape. The fare was $1. The car was a bit loud and bumpy when moving but pleasantly silent when stopped. The drivers employed a bell reminiscent of San Francisco’s cable cars, which added to the nostalgic feel of the experience. As we traveled along the rails I noticed block after block of buildings for lease, for sale or just vacant. At several intersections along the streetcar route I observed that the buildings on all four corners were empty. I counted 23 passengers on the 14 streetcars that ours passed, less than a 5 percent capacity rate at rush hour. Not once did I see more than three people on any one streetcar other than our own. Mayor Mallory’s exact words: “The facts are clear. Streetcars must be a part of Cincinnati’s future and we will fight to make it happen.” Here’s hoping that he fights as diligently as he researches facts. Jim Knecht Springfield Township http://news.cincinnati.com/apps/pbcs.dll/section?Category=edit0202&plckController=Blog&plckScript=blogScript&plckElementId=blogDest&plckBlogPage=BlogViewPost&plckPostId=Blog%3ae8ab9c9c-3e4b-46b9-a08d-a17c4ecdcdc7Post%3ab76f1dab-db71-410c-9fd9-720235a9d657&sid=sitelife.cincinnati.com Sorry, I've never been to Memphis, so I can't speak to the anecdote above. Anyone have any insight?
March 16, 200916 yr Author The Memphis line was built in 1993 for $33 million dollars and carries about 2500 passengers a day. It is a heritage system and uses vintage rolling stock.
March 16, 200916 yr I've got no problem with Memphis' system, but since it really is not what is being proposed in Cincinnati, it seems a poor comparison.
March 16, 200916 yr Author ^I just noticed Laure Quinlivan is in that picture http://lqreportingtoyou.com/
March 16, 200916 yr I cringe every time someone uses Memphis, Kenosha or Little Rock as examples of what we're proposing for Cincinnati. In no way is the Memphis tourist trolley regarded as "renowned" system by anyone who knows anything about rail transit.
March 16, 200916 yr how smooth is the modern streetcar? The vintage types are very bumpy, atleast what I rode in SF and the author of the above letter mentioned it about Memphis'. Good thing they are repaving w. clifton. Feel like I have a concussion just from sitting in the bus by the time it gets to the bottom of the hill.
March 16, 200916 yr how smooth is the modern streetcar? The vintage types are very bumpy, atleast what I rode in SF and the author of the above letter mentioned it about Memphis'. Modern streetcars (what's being proposed for Cincinnati) are extremely smooth and quiet in their ride. People are often surprised (including myself) just how quiet they are in person and just how smooth the ride is. If you've never been on one you will experience probably the smoothest transportation ride of your life (including your car). These modern streetcars are sleek, efficient, reliable and pleasant to ride.
March 16, 200916 yr Washington DC is going ahead with a streetcar plan. Seems pretty similar to what is proposed for Cincinnati. http://www.upi.com/Odd_News/2009/03/15/Street_cars_headed_back_to_Washington/UPI-91961237142149/
March 16, 200916 yr how smooth is the modern streetcar? It _is_ surprising. What's more surprising is that the smoothness comes from the suspension of the streetcar, not the rails. The difference between these two models (from Munich) on the same track is night and day. (more here: http://www.flickr.com/photos/larissasfotos/sets/72157600622283278/) (more here: http://www.bdyg.homepage.t-online.de/Buenos_Dias/tram_m_trambahn_strassenbahn_m/tram_m_trambahn_strassenbahn_m.html)
March 16, 200916 yr Author from the DC Streetcar FAQ How have they helped those cities? The most often cited economic development benefit of streetcars is Portland. Portland's service was opened in 2001 and has resulted in a development-to-transit-ratio of 18:1. In other words, every $1 spent on the streetcar resulted in $18 of development in the immediate area. Memphis, Tennessee, implemented a similar streetcar in 1993 and now estimates to-date development activities because of the streetcar at more than $2 billion.
March 16, 200916 yr >how smooth is the modern streetcar? Totally smooth. Less vibration and less noise than the tram at Cincinnati's airport. The other thing is when you're at a stop, there is no noise whatsoever aside from the chatter of other passengers since the motors turn off. No squeaking brakes, no surge when it accelerates.
March 16, 200916 yr Also Memphis is in free fall economically and socially (crime is totally out of control). Cincinnati's counter-cyclical tendencies are playing out.
March 16, 200916 yr Regarding DC's planned system - I don't know that it's a good comparison to Cincinnati. The first phase of the DC system is contained entirely within Anacostia and does not connect to the CBD (it doesn't even cross the river at this point). While it includes 'plans' for expansion across the 11th Street bridge into the Capitol Hill area, at this point, it's really part of a massive redevelopment plan for the Anacostia Waterfront. At this point, it's primary function is as a feeder to the existing Metro system.
March 16, 200916 yr ^DC is "hampered" by a federal law prohibiting overhead wires in the L'Enfant City (map below). It's nice to have utilities underground, but waiting for the feds to rewrite the law or technology to catch up isn't. I can't remember why the technology the old DC streetcar used is no longer practical.
March 17, 200916 yr Wedding donations to go toward streetcar CINCINNATI, March 10 (UPI) -- A soon-to-be-married Cincinnati couple want any and all wedding donations to go toward building the city's proposed streetcar system. More info at: http://www.upi.com/Odd_News/2009/03/10/Wedding_donations_to_go_toward_streetcar/UPI-78921236709799/
March 17, 200916 yr They gave an update on Fox19 last night, and I think they said that the couple raised about $5500 for the Streetcar.
March 17, 200916 yr ^DC is "hampered" by a federal law prohibiting overhead wires in the L'Enfant City (map below). It's nice to have utilities underground, but waiting for the feds to rewrite the law or technology to catch up isn't. I can't remember why the technology the old DC streetcar used is no longer practical. How can you power a streetcar without overhead wires? You can't have an electrified third rail. Cable cars?
March 17, 200916 yr ^I have read about a method that energizes only the parts of a rail while it is under the car, but I think they will make an exception to allow the overhead wire in DC because you cannot build half the line powered from above and half from below.
March 17, 200916 yr Washington DC's system used "Conduit current collection". The rails (with conduit) can still be seen on P St in Georgetown.
March 17, 200916 yr ^ The new system in D.C. will have overhead wires. It will use OCS poles and be just like Portland's
March 17, 200916 yr I've posted photos of the Seattle modern streetcar, AKA The SLUT (South Lake Union Trolley). Gallery 1, downtown: http://www.urbanohio.com/forum2/index.php/topic,18697.0 Gallery 2, shop facilities and northern half of the line: http://www.urbanohio.com/forum2/index.php/topic,18698.0.html I'm not sure what lessons the Seattle line has that pertain directly to Cincinnati because its character doesn't really resemble anything planned here whereas the Portland system has uncanny similarities. Phase 1 in Cincinnati is larger than what exists currently in Seattle and if the uptown extension is included as part of phase 1 then it's significantly bigger. The Seattle line "changes gears" every couple blocks, with curb running 2-way near downtown, center 2-way with island station at north terminus, parallel streets in the middle, and a brief stretch of exclusive right-of-way. Also, I really disliked the purple car because purple is a dark color and it didn't show up well on photos or in real life. Bright colors is definitely the way to go because the vehicles have a much more prominent and cheerful presence.
March 17, 200916 yr I'm curious - did Seattle's streetcar see as much opposition as Cincinnati's is currently seeing? I'm wondering if it's a local phenomenon and should perpetuate notion of the Cincinnati borderline pride in hindering progress, or if the same level of naysayer-ness that are coming out here came out in Seattle.
March 17, 200916 yr According to Wikipedia, 50% of the Seattle line was privately funded and the effort led by no less than about the 4th richest person in America: The line was originally envisioned by Microsoft co-founder Paul Allen to help improve the South Lake Union neighborhood that his venture capital company, Vulcan Inc., is heavily invested in.[1] Allen's main supporter from the beginning was Seattle Mayor Greg Nickels, but he was not universally supported by the Seattle City Council, which was concerned about the lack of public support for the line and questioned if it should be moved ahead of Seattle's other transportation needs.[2] After heavy lobbying by South Lake Union businesses, including Vulcan, the Seattle City Council approved the development of the neighborhood into a biotechnology and bio-medical research center. Included in that plan was funding to investigate a 2.6-mile (4.2 km), US$45 million streetcar line. The line was approved in 2005 at a cost of $50.5 million, with $25 million paid by property owners along the streetcar's route and the remainder paid by federal, state, and local funds.[3] I think Paul Allen's involvement should be further proof to Smitherman, et al, that there are a lot of intelligent, successful people who understand the power of this transportation mode. I think 700WLW and the average suburban chump who is baffled that the Cincinnati proposal still has a lot of political support needs to know that there is a totally different model for how a city can operate, and it's a better one, and that it sells itself to those who have seen it in person.
March 17, 200916 yr I'm curious - did Seattle's streetcar see as much opposition as Cincinnati's is currently seeing? I'm wondering if it's a local phenomenon and should perpetuate notion of the Cincinnati borderline pride in hindering progress, or if the same level of naysayer-ness that are coming out here came out in Seattle. It's Cincinnati.
March 17, 200916 yr No, actually check any Seattle newspaper talkback comments section. It's the same crap from the same kind of suburban know-it-alls. I read one that complained "we need a better connection between downtown and the University District". It's like, uh, they were just awarded $800 million to dig a light rail tunnel to do just that. It's the exact same problem with uninformed people who don't want to be informed, I just think they're a bit more outnumbered out there.
March 17, 200916 yr I'm curious - did Seattle's streetcar see as much opposition as Cincinnati's is currently seeing? I'm wondering if it's a local phenomenon and should perpetuate notion of the Cincinnati borderline pride in hindering progress, or if the same level of naysayer-ness that are coming out here came out in Seattle. The light rail in Salt Lake recieved the same kind of opposition even though we were getting significant federal help due to the Olympics. Plans had to be cut back, and there was even a proposal in the state legislature to keep the Utah Transit Authority (UTA) from using the State's name! Of course, now that the system is so successful (and we're at the bottom of the Federal priority list), all the suburbs are clammering for extensions to their communities. What was key here, was having people see a success, even if smaller then originally planned.
March 17, 200916 yr It's like, uh, they were just awarded $800 million to dig a light rail tunnel to do just that. Are you referring to the plans to build the Mt. Auburn Light Rail Tunnel?
March 17, 200916 yr The Mt. Auburn Tunnel was/is a rat hole compared to what's about to happen in Seattle. They are about to open the "heaviest" light rail line in the world, which will be almost completely grade separated, operate as a subway downtown in the preexisting bus tunnel, and the north extension planned for 2015-16 will be another 3-4 miles of continuous subway. I'll be posting another thread soon with Seattle light rail photos. Meanwhile, here in Cincinnati, we voted on the particularities of the Corryville Kroger's Sunday liquor license.
March 17, 200916 yr Meanwhile, here in Cincinnati, we voted on the particularities of the Corryville Kroger's Sunday liquor license. At least we have our priorities straight.
March 17, 200916 yr Seattle has a long history of opposition to rail transit going back to the Seventies. I've heard the reason Atlanta has MARTA is that Washington Senator "Scoop" Jackson (a power in the Senate at the time and an erstwhile presidential candidate) arranged for lavish Federal funding for rail in Seattle when he was head of the Senate Finance Committee. I think Boeing was even going to build the rail cars. But Seattle leaders couldn't agree on how the money would be spent ("the Seattle Process" is how I've heard it referred to), and so the money went to Atlanta instead, perhaps at the direction of Jimmy Carter, I dunno. I've heard that what finally caused Seattle voters to start to invest in light rail, and then defend that vote against a repeal attempt, was the feeling that they were being eclipsed by Portland and Vancouver -- Portland with its LRT and streetcar and Vancouver with its SkyTrain. Sound Transit -- a multi-county authority -- recently passed a global transportation plan for several light rail lines, four or five more streetcar lines, plus an expanded streetcar in Tacoma, maybe even upgrading the Tacoma streetcar that's there now to light rail.
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