^^While I agree with you both in principle, the Southbank Shuttle has been fairly successful, and it has a less convenient route.  It goes from Covington to Cincinnati to Newport, back to Cincinnati, then back to Covington.  So no matter where you start, if you want to go between Newport and Covington, you have to travel through Cincinnati first.  As long as the loop doesn't delve too deeply into Covington (which I assume it wouldn't), I don't think it would be that big of a deal.  I'm guessing that the Cincinnati side would only go as far north as The Banks or Fountain Square anyway.

Proposals for a streetcar network in NKY has been floated for years. The Clay Wade Bailey was once a suggested routing of the streetcar into Cincinnati, but the Kentucky Transportation Cabinet all but killed the idea since there is not adequate room for two streetcar tracks. A new bridge would need to be constructed.

 

If that's the case, then it seems sensible that the Brent Spence Bridge be kept intact and adapted for transit use once the new span is built to carry I-71 and I-75. Brent Spence's lower level could be used for streetcars and light rail to Covington, and the upper level for local street traffic. From everything I've read about the Brent Spence replacement project, it seems as if the bridge is still structurally sound despite the capacity issues. It would be a shame to knock down a perfectly good bridge that could be adapted for transit use.

 

Alternately, the new Brent Spence replacement bridge could be designed to include provisions for future streetcar / light rail tracks... I'm not sure how much I trust the local politicians to do the sensible thing, though.

 

It's not. The Brent Spence Bridge, in all alternate versions that do not include total demolition, will be reused for Interstate 71 and downtown Cincinnati traffic, where as Interstate 75 will use a parallel span. Traffic counts justify two separate spans at this point.

Is the Suspension Bridge too old for this? Are street cars light enough? Especially, since we've eliminated nearly all bus and truck traffic a streetcar would seem to cause too much trouble.

Shouldnt we be focusing our efforts on the current proposal and the efforts of 1 city government as opposed to 2 or 3 city governments in 3 different counties and 2 states?

^Actually, I think that getting Covington and Newport involved is a huge step in the right direction.  Rightly or wrongly, people seem to think that NKY (Newport in particular) knows how to get things done, while the perception is that Cincinnati does not.  If both Covington and Newport endorse a streetcar network and are openly excited about being a part of it, that will go a long way in the court of public opinion.  No longer will this be associated with only Cincinnati projects; now it will be tied into things that The Enquirer actually likes, such as NOTL. 

 

Additionally, 2 states and 3 cities in collaboration make a stronger case for federal funds than a single city does.

I think modern streetcars would be too heavy for the Roebling bridge. It's not just the weight, but the fact that the weight would be highly concentrated in one location... Suspension bridges tend not to like that sort of treatment.

 

(Some suspension bridges here on the east coast carry subway trains, but they were all designed to take the concentrated loads, and even then it hasn't been without problems. The Manhattan Bridge is under a constant state of repair because of asymmetrical loading by subway trains, and I remember reading somewhere that the center of the bridge deflects as much as six feet whenever a train crosses it.)

^Actually, I think that getting Covington and Newport involved is a huge step in the right direction.  Rightly or wrongly, people seem to think that NKY (Newport in particular) knows how to get things done, while the perception is that Cincinnati does not.  If both Covington and Newport endorse a streetcar network and are openly excited about being a part of it, that will go a long way in the court of public opinion.  No longer will this be associated with only Cincinnati projects; now it will be tied into things that The Enquirer actually likes, such as NOTL. 

 

Additionally, 2 states and 3 cities in collaboration make a stronger case for federal funds than a single city does.

 

Precisely!!!  Well said!

It would be really neat to ride it over the river on the Purple People Bridge to NOTL, especially during the summers with the musical events going on at the park (wednesday's i think?)

Streetcars once ran where the sidewalk is located between the roadway and the railroad on the L&N bridge as well as being cantilevered to the outside (downstream) side of the  roadway truss.  The current bridge was reconstructed in 1896 specifically to handle heavier rail traffic and the streetcars.

 

 

So, any word yet on how Covington voted?

 

Meanwhile, the Inkwire has this highly unscientific poll with encouraging results so far.

Streetcars once ran where the sidewalk is located between the roadway and the railroad on the L&N bridge as well as being cantilevered to the outside (downstream) side of the roadway truss.   The current bridge was reconstructed in 1896 specifically to handle heavier rail traffic and the streetcars.

 

Interesting. I've been wondering if that middle section of the span was wide enough to handle streetcars or light rail. In looking at photos of the bridge, it looks like a pretty narrow squeeze, but it's been a long time since I've seen it up close.

For reference, the Skoda vehicles weigh 53,000lbs. empty and have a crush load of 221 passengers, meaning a maximum load of about 100,000lbs. or 50 tons. 

 

The old weight limit for the Suspension Bridge was 21 tons and it's low enough now that TANK's buses were recently forced off.  Of course streetcars crossed the Suspension Bridge for over 50 years but those streetcars were significantly smaller so both the weight of the vehicles and the max passengers was significantly less.

 

The larger issue is that the bridge's location is important enough that something will have to be done in upcoming decades -- either a new bridge at Race St., a bus/light rail tunnel under the river, or reconstruction of the bridge deck so that buses & possibly streetcars could return.   

 

 

   

They won't let us on Clay Wade Bailey until the new Brent Spence is complete - maybe ten years from now. It will go to Newport first. Then to Covington if a new Fourth Street Bridge happens.

^I think that a new 4th Street bridge is already in discussion as part of the RT9 reroute and/or Ovation construction, but I'm not positive on that.

I was at a Young Professional event last night and a high level member of the Office of Environmental Quality presented some environmental impacts of the streetcar project.  The CO₂ numbers were so impressive that I posted them below.

 

A few of us went out for a beer after the event.  We spent some time trying to understand the people who claim to be pro-environment, but are against the project.  I mentioned the Jason/Justin mountain top coal issue, but everyone else found that argument to be just as lame as I did.  Why are people who are supposedly concerned about the environment against this project?

 

Reductions due to persons travelling on the Cincinnati Streetcar in Downtown, Over-the-Rhine and Uptown versus in cars. 4,321 tons of CO2 per year

 

Reductions due to denser settlement patterns in 1A 17,175 tons of CO2 per year

 

Reductions due to denser settlement patterns in 1B 8,820 tons of CO2 per year

 

CO2 REDUCTIONS 30,316 tons of CO2 per year

 

CO2 generated as a result of streetcar operation 2,248 tons of CO2 per year

 

NET TOTAL CO2 REDUCTION 28,068 tons of CO2 per year

 

http://www.cincinnati-oh.gov/cmgr/downloads/cmgr_pdf18280.pdf  pg. 54

I've had similar questions about why supposedly pro-environmental groups would be fighting so vigorously against the streetcar project... Same with the local chapter of the NAACP. In any other city, the NAACP and the Green Party would be among the loudest advocates for improved mass transit for inner-city neighborhoods.

 

I know in some other places, the Green Party actually receives a lot of financing from right-wing interests in order to siphon votes away from Democrats and help get Republicans elected to office, so I can't help but wonder if a similar dynamic is happening in Cincinnati. I'd be curious to know who is funding these groups.

I've had similar questions about why supposedly pro-environmental groups would be fighting so vigorously against the streetcar project... Same with the local chapter of the NAACP. In any other city, the NAACP and the Green Party would be among the loudest advocates for improved mass transit for inner-city neighborhoods.

 

I know in some other places, the Green Party actually receives a lot of financing from right-wing interests in order to siphon votes away from Democrats and help get Republicans elected to office, so I can't help but wonder if a similar dynamic is happening in Cincinnati. I'd be curious to know who is funding these groups.

 

Yes, there is a vast right wing conspiracy and the NAACP and the Green Party are just Republican fronts.  This is all part of our plan... I shouldn't have told you all this!

 

 

I can't speak for the NAACP, but there have been multiple cases of Green Party candidates receiving large amounts of funding from right-wing interests.

 

2008: Dems see red as Republicans run as Greens

2006: GOP Donors Funded Entire PA Green Party Drive

2001: Greens say Republicans crashed their party

2001: Green Party Candidate Finds He's a Republican Pawn

 

That's merely what I found in about two minutes of searching Google.

 

I don't know if it's happening in Cincinnati or not, but given Ohio's importance in electoral politics and Hamilton County being an important swing district, it wouldn't shock me.

I can't speak for the NAACP, but there have been multiple cases of Green Party candidates receiving large amounts of funding from right-wing interests.

 

2008: Dems see red as Republicans run as Greens

2006: GOP Donors Funded Entire PA Green Party Drive

2001: Greens say Republicans crashed their party

2001: Green Party Candidate Finds He's a Republican Pawn

 

That's merely what I found in about two minutes of searching Google.

 

I don't know if it's happening in Cincinnati or not, but given Ohio's importance in electoral politics and Hamilton County being an important swing district, it wouldn't shock me.

 

But it still wouldn't make sense for Republicans to buy an anti-streetcar endorsement from the Green Party.  Most of the anti-streetcar sentiment comes from suburbanites vs. people who would actually use it, not really based on politics.  To me, at least, local issues like this aren't really that much of a Republican/Democrat thing.  I don't care at all who's in what party when I vote for city council, I just care which issues they choose to focus on.  The Green Party seems to be concerned with using more electricity to move people around, and feel that ridership would be from people who aren't driving cars now anyways, so the reduction in emmisions will be minimal.  At least, that's what I get from them.

 

As for the NAACP, I think we've talked about it a few times now.  Smitherman is a joke, and lord only knows what he's up to, but I doubt it's being a Republican pawn.  It's my opinion that he is against this type of development because of the gentrification aspects associated with it, and the envisioned displacement of blacks that would come from this. 

Most of the anti-streetcar sentiment comes from suburbanites vs. people who would actually use it, not really based on politics. To me, at least, local issues like this aren't really that much of a Republican/Democrat thing. I don't care at all who's in what party when I vote for city council, I just care which issues they choose to focus on.

 

I also get the impression that the streetcar is not a Republican/Democrat thing.  I have friends that are strong Democrats that do not support streetcars or light rail.  I know quite a few Republicans that are for it.

Most of the anti-streetcar sentiment comes from suburbanites vs. people who would actually use it, not really based on politics.  To me, at least, local issues like this aren't really that much of a Republican/Democrat thing.  I don't care at all who's in what party when I vote for city council, I just care which issues they choose to focus on. 

 

I also get the impression that the streetcar is not a Republican/Democrat thing.  I have friends that are strong Democrats that do not support streetcars or light rail.  I know quite a few Republicans that are for it.

 

I'm a Republican, and I'm for it.

 

But I agree... I think this is not about party affiliation really. On local levels, most things aren't. There are some big national things (i.e. abortion, gun control, capital punishment, etc.) that are aligned on party lines, but at the local level, its completely different.

In that case, I guess the Greens won't be satisfied until the streetcars are powered by hemp, and the local NAACP won't be satisfied until OTR goes back to the way it was in the 80's and 90's.

The Green Party seems to be concerned with using more electricity to move people around, and feel that ridership would be from people who aren't driving cars now anyways, so the reduction in emmisions will be minimal. At least, that's what I get from them.

 

 

If the Green Party is so concerned about electricity usage, why aren't they against Queen City Square? The average office building in the US uses 17 kwh per sq ft a year. At 800,000 sq ft that is 13,600,000 kwh or 7.5 times more than the streetcar running from the Banks to UC.

The Green Party seems to be concerned with using more electricity to move people around, and feel that ridership would be from people who aren't driving cars now anyways, so the reduction in emmisions will be minimal. At least, that's what I get from them.

 

 

If the Green Party is so concerned about electricity usage, why aren't they against Queen City Square? The average office building in the US uses 17 kwh per sq ft a year. At 800,000 sq ft that is 13,600,000 kwh or 7.5 times more than the streetcar running from the Banks to UC.

 

A new office building will use less kwh per square foot than an older one, which are notoriously tough to heat and cool.  There is also the school of thought that the streetcar won't get much ridership (I don't agree with this, but the Green Party might), whereas QCS has already leased most of the office space.

I had nothing to do with this video, but three other students in my major put together this nice little video about the Streetcar project:

http://www.facebook.com/video/video.php?v=601920165215&ref=nf

 

If you can't load it on Facebook, you can download it at: http://animetruth.sorrowind.net/films/Urban%20Evolution-h.264.mov

Great video. Thanks for sharing that

  The Green Party seems to be concerned with using more electricity to move people around, and feel that ridership would be from people who aren't driving cars now anyways, so the reduction in emmisions will be minimal.  At least, that's what I get from them.

 

 

If the Green Party is so concerned about electricity usage, why aren't they against Queen City Square? The average office building in the US uses 17 kwh per sq ft a year. At 800,000 sq ft that is 13,600,000 kwh or 7.5 times more than the streetcar running from the Banks to UC.

 

A new office building will use less kwh per square foot than an older one, which are notoriously tough to heat and cool.  There is also the school of thought that the streetcar won't get much ridership (I don't agree with this, but the Green Party might), whereas QCS has already leased most of the office space.

 

There are two problems with that

1. I really doubt that the incremental energy usage to heat and cool an old building (or to retrofit an old building) justify the construction of a new 660 ft. skyscraper. 

2. From an environmental standpoint it doesn't matter how much room in QSC is leased if it is all cannibalization from existing buildings.  If we were at 99% occupancy then you need a new building.  If we are at 83.3% occupancy, and the building you are bringing on-line  800,000 sq ft. of new Class A office space in a market where you have over 1 million sq. ft. of class A office space vacant then it doesn't justify the construction.  QSC isn't bring in new tenant into downtown, it is just shuffling space.

 

 

 

Also last year our metro region grew by about 17,717 people, if the green party is against the additional electricity of the streetcar (which uses about as much electricity as 160 houses) at a probably high estimate of 4 person's per household that is 4,429 households.  If the real concern about the streetcar is electricity usage, why wasn't the green party opposed to this growth?

^^ No, but QCS is improving efficiencies for Great American, who was clustered in six different downtown buildings.

Streetcars once ran where the sidewalk is located between the roadway and the railroad on the L&N bridge as well as being cantilevered to the outside (downstream) side of the roadway truss. The current bridge was reconstructed in 1896 specifically to handle heavier rail traffic and the streetcars.

 

Interesting. I've been wondering if that middle section of the span was wide enough to handle streetcars or light rail. In looking at photos of the bridge, it looks like a pretty narrow squeeze, but it's been a long time since I've seen it up close.

 

I'm not sure how wide the modern Skoda vehicles are in comparison to the pedestrian path on the Purple People Bridge, but looking at these photos you can see...

...the unused freight line could be modified to carry streetcars. Put one track on the freight line, the other in place of the pedestrian path here...

...then you have two tracks leading directly into Newport on the levee with right of ways on both sides of the bridge.

You'd also be able to keep the main pedestrian walkway.

 

Photographs by me, from "Cincinnati's Forgotten Railroads" update here:

http://queencitydiscovery.blogspot.com/2009/02/cincinnats-forgotten-railroad-history.html

 

 

If the purple people bridge were used for the streetcars it would be most logical to place the track where the the former L&N trackbed was located in the upstream truss but this would limit it to a single track over the bridge.  The sidewalk  truss in center would likely be too small.  The roadway portion of the bridge could be used for two tracks but would inhibit pedestrian travel.  The bigger challenge is linking the track on the bridge to the downtown core on the Ohio side of the river.  The streetcar would likely need to run in Pete Roseway & Broadway with mixed traffic.

One line on the L&N and the other line on the Southgate bridge.

^^ No, but QCS is improving efficiencies for Great American, who was clustered in six different downtown buildings.

 

I agree entirely on why it the business would want to do that. 

Thanks for the pics. Most streetcars are about 8'-6" wide. If I lived nearby, I'd be tempted to take a tape measure over to the L&N Bridge and measure the clearance in that center section. If it's too narrow, they could run one track on the L&N railroad section, and the other track along the east side of the former roadway section. That would still leave sufficient space on the west side of the road for pedestrian travel.

If the purple people bridge were used for the streetcars it would be most logical to place the track where the the former L&N trackbed was located in the upstream truss but this would limit it to a single track over the bridge. The sidewalk truss in center would likely be too small. The roadway portion of the bridge could be used for two tracks but would inhibit pedestrian travel. The bigger challenge is linking the track on the bridge to the downtown core on the Ohio side of the river. The streetcar would likely need to run in Pete Roseway & Broadway with mixed traffic.

 

simple solution = streetcars use the present pedestrian roadway and build a pedestrian deck on the L&N truss. 

 

But this is all moot right now anyway.  How did Covington vote the other night? 

covington supports the project.

^Funny how it wasn't covered by the media.

^Funny how it wasn't covered by the media.

 

Yeah... I've looked in a number of places and can't find it either.

^Funny how it wasn't covered by the media.

 

Yeah... I've looked in a number of places and can't find it either.

 

I don't think they have passed the resolution yet, I think that happens tonight

I'm just going off what was said last night at the rally

That was a real nice video

If Cincinnati somehow fails to build the streetcar, Northern Kentucky should build its own streetcar linking Newport and Covington, with stub tracks leading to the L&N Bridge. Hell, they should build a light rail line from downtown Covington to the airport while they're at it. When Cincinnati's movers and shakers see the popularity of rail transit and the development it creates, I think we'd see them tripping over themselves to catch up... Shame can be a great motivator.

I'm just going off what was said last night at the rally

 

Any more reaction or coverage from the rally?  Can anyone fill us in on what happened?

Streetcars ran on the L&N Bridge both in that center section and on a cantilevered deck outside the through trusses which has been disassembled.  You can still see evidence of it if you hang your head over the railing on the pedestrian side. 

 

They should be fine with running a single track over the railroad section.  If it takes two minutes to cross the bridge and the streetcars run on 10-15 minute headways then obviously there shouldn't be much of a conflict.  Portland has two single-track sections and they don't cause trouble.   

^Problem Solved!

If Cincinnati somehow fails to build the streetcar, Northern Kentucky should build its own streetcar linking Newport and Covington, with stub tracks leading to the L&N Bridge. Hell, they should build a light rail line from downtown Covington to the airport while they're at it. When Cincinnati's movers and shakers see the popularity of rail transit and the development it creates, I think we'd see them tripping over themselves to catch up... Shame can be a great motivator.

 

I totally agree, although my hope is that Cincinnati's plan proceeds as rapidly as possible.  Anyone know if the Vision 2015 crowd has weighed in on this recent development in Newport and Covington?

Isn't it even harder to fund this kind of stuff in Kentucky than Ohio? They've had problems keeping TANK running.

^

I think Northern Kentucky's Vision 2015 Plan only promotes "non-rail public transportation."

http://recovery.ohio.gov/news/#032609

 

In Cincinnati, the state will invest a total of $23.5 million in stimulus funds to assist in development of the Riverfront Banks Project and the nearby Intermodal Transit Center.

 

I don't see anything about the streetcar, although i'm not sure that was applied for under this program or not.

 

Does anyone have a better understanding of what's going on?

If Cincinnati somehow fails to build the streetcar, Northern Kentucky should build its own streetcar linking Newport and Covington, with stub tracks leading to the L&N Bridge. Hell, they should build a light rail line from downtown Covington to the airport while they're at it. When Cincinnati's movers and shakers see the popularity of rail transit and the development it creates, I think we'd see them tripping over themselves to catch up... Shame can be a great motivator.

 

Cincinnatians would use it as evidence that Cincinnati "can't get things done" and Northern Kentucky is moving ahead of us.... and totally ignore the fact that they were the ones opposing the Streetcar in the first place.

 

(Not to be a pessimist or anything!)