Thanks to both jmeck and Living in Gin for these great photographs and sketches that visually answer any questions one might have regarding turning radii.

 

Living in Gin, would you mind posting those sketches in this thread so that they directly appear for our readers?

Here they are in JPG format. For the drawings in PDF and the original DWG format, they can be downloaded by right-clicking the links in my message above.

LIG, solid, solid work man.

 

The Dean truly is a broken record; when acknowledging the correctness of your drawings he said they 'raise new questions.'  Like 'well that's shot, what new angle can I attack the streetcar on now?'

 

Don't worry, he'll come up with something I'm sure.

"The streetcars aren't painted my favorite color! Waaah!"

 

    In all fairness, that curve is tight and could be problematic. On a trip to Germany I paid attention to the streetcars there and I found one that squealled on a tight turn, so yes, modern streetcars can in fact squeal.

 

    Some previous studies on light rail showed some turns that I don't think met the minimum radius requirement, which for light rail I think is 90 feet. Again, there is some confusion over vehicles since "light rail" and "streetcars" are the same thing to some.

 

    That said, I think that the challenges can be overcome. The feasibility study was not a final construction plan, and this project would take at least a year to design. Still, the straighter the alignment, the better.

So would it make sense to have a curb bump out on the curve from 12th to Elm (or Elm to 12th, I don't know which way it is bound in that sketch) to as to ensure that illegal parking on the inside of that curve doesn't become problematic?

Of the many modern streetcar turns I observed in Seattle and Portland, there was squeaking at only one turn and by one specific streetcar.  This was at the corner of 11th & Market in Portland, a perfectly level turn.  I didn't observe any squeaking in Seattle on the unusual curves pictured above.  Overall it's impossible to overemphasize how quiet the streetcars are.  In this regard they have nothing in common with the Boston green line streetcars, which are heavy enough to cause the street to vibrate. 

 

I personally have no issue with the 12th St. curve cutting Washington Park's corner, and incidentally most of the curves in Portland are 70-80ft. radius.  Light Rail, which The Beacon claims to support, could not follow this same route because it cannot make these kinds of turns.  Most light rail vehicle have a minimum turning radius closer to 100ft.

In this photo of a Cincinnati PCC car notice that the front end of the car extends quite a way beyond the track:

 

Here's a technical drawing showing required clearances for the type 100 car. The minimum radius to the inside rail is about 33 feet, but the minimum clearance radius to the outside of the car is about 33' + 5' + 8' = 46'.

 

And yes, parked vehicles were a concern.

I think the real challenge to accommodate the turning radius of the streetcar downtown will be at Freedom Way's intersection with Walnut and Elm Streets at the Banks.

The Dean™ had mentioned 60' as a turning radius on this post, so that's the assumption I went with on my drawings.

 

90' sounds about right for larger light rail vehicles. (Unfortunately I don't have any hard data in front of me to back that up.) For heavy rail, just by way of comparison: the Washington Metro subway has a minimum 225' turning radius, and a 5% maximum grade. On any rail project, the turning radius is always measured to the centerline between the rails.

The modern streetcars are articulated so don't overhang like the PCC's did.  It never occurred to me prior to seeing the modern streetcar for myself, or while riding them, that turning was any kind of issue.  But leave it to the minds of The Cincinnati Beacon to create a controversy. 

 

Here are some shots of the modern streetcars turning:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

^Yup...it should be pretty clear to every one on earth at this point that what is being proposed here in Cincinnati is a modern streetcar system - not a historic/vintage one that would utilize those antiquated design specs.

 

    John, is there any way we could get copies of construction drawings from Portland? We could see what their standards were and see if it works here.

 

 

^

 

You mean drawings showing turning radii? I really wouldn't worry about it. Portland's street widths are almost identical to Cincinnati's and there are several 90-degree turns. Sure the streetcar swings out here and there to get around corners, but so do trucks and buses. Considering that each streetcar carries up to 130 people who might otherwise be in their own cars, there is little effect on traffic. If anything, there's probably a positive effect.

 

I agree with CityKin that the streetcar should turn at Henry Street instead of McMicken. In fact, I'd rename Henry Street "20th Street" in order to give people a clue as to the range of the downtown - OTR leg of the streetcar for comprehensibilty, i.e. "it goes from 2nd Street to 20th Street".

 

I wouldnt pay much attention to anything Michael Earl Patton says. Maybe he wants a job on the project. Seems like he has plenty of time these days.

Mr. Patton certainly comes off as somebody with an axe to grind.... I'm still curious to know what his engineering specialty is, though.

^No, YOU'RE the one with an axe to grind!

 

Here are some pics from April of the #17 turning from McMillan onto Clifton Ave.  As can be seen, it crosses over the double-yellow and frequently any cars waiting at the light have to back up to allow it to turn. 

 

 

 

 

So we make the stops farther back right?

 

This is not an insurmountable obstacle. In fact, I hesitate to call it an obstacle at all.  If it was such a big problem for Metro I'm sure they would have asked to have the stops moved already.

^I love the idea of changing the name of Henry to 20th.  And for some strange reason Henry, although only a block long is extra wide, and runs between very large old vacant brewery buildings.

But wasn't the motivation for running to McMicken in order to be a block or two closer to the The Brewery District?  I agree Henry is much simpler. 

People would still walk the last couple of blocks. In fact, that would add value to those blocks.

 

Jake, can you post photos of the weaving rails in the new Transit Mall and tell people what's going to happen there.

 

On our next Portland tour, I've arranged for the designers of the renovated Transit Mall to be our lunch speakers. They're burning in trains on it now, with service scheduled to start in September.

 

Basically, weaving of rail with buses and cars and trucks is not a problem if it's done correctly.

When I was speaking to Marty (?) from the ODOT about putting speed humps on my road he said that there would need to be proof of vehicles crossing the double yellow line.

According to this vehicle training page on the NHTSA, a typical city bus will have a turning radius ranging anywhere from 37 to 58 feet, depending on the wheelbase. The upper end of that range is comparable to the Skoda streetcar.

 

I'd also guess that the streetcar making that turn is safer than the bus, as drivers can see the tracks in the pavement and know exactly where the streetcar is headed. With busses, drivers have no way of immediately knowing how wide the bus needs to swing.

^ I have always found buses' unpredictable behavior irritating and I think others do as well. Streetcars solve that problem.

^I love the idea of changing the name of Henry to 20th. And for some strange reason Henry, although only a block long is extra wide, and runs between very large old vacant brewery buildings.

Henry jogs south and heads west another block to Dunlap. It kinda continues westward from there - it might have another name. It gets extra narrow.

Charlie's Dunlap Cafe is at the SE corner of Dunlap & Henry and would certainly be a major destination for streetcar riders.

Seriously, his Jonsey Burger kills anything at Fatburger.

ironically enough streetcar tracks are visible below the bus in the first image.

>as drivers can see the tracks in the pavement and know exactly where the streetcar is headed.

 

Absolutely.  The modern streetcar tracks are embedded in a concrete strip that contrasts with asphalt much more than did old streetcar tracks or freight tracks that run on streets through industrial areas.  The modern streetcar tracks in Portland and Seattle don't pull out from stations so you don't have that problem that buses have.  You know if a streetcar is going to turn at the next intersection or not but not a bus, unless you note its route number and happen to know where that route goes, which is the minority of drivers and pedestrians. 

 

In Portland the original light rail line travels down a pair of very narrow streets which are only about 20ft. wide.  There is one traffic lane and another dedicated exclusively to light rail.  Cars can drive in the light rail line's lane but it's unlikely because the tracks are surrounded by cobbles which cause noise and vibration in any car, kind of like rumble strips. 

 

But the new light rail line through downtown Portland looks just like modern streetcar tracks because it travels in a concrete strip.  Presumably this concrete is deeper than the modern streetcar concrete, but I'm not sure. 

 

Here is the original 1986 light rail line with its cobble stone strip:

 

Another view:

 

This is the new light rail line that is not yet in service.  You can see that it has to jog over for a curbside station, in marked contrast to the older light rail line, which travels perfectly straight through downtown Portland.  This new light rail line through downtown will carry the traffic from two existing suburban lines that currently run on the 1986 line.  One or two future suburban lines will also travel on this new pair of downtown tracks:

 

Another view:

 

They had the station signage up more than 6 months before service begins.  I think looking at this "station" clearly illustrates how much a city can save by doing surface light rail as opposed to a subway or elevated.  Not only does the station cost maybe $20,000 as opposed to $10+ million, it requires no permanent staffing. 

 

 

A turn, obviously on a somewhat wider radius than streetcars:

 

I ran across this photo today...obviously the congestion level here is high enough that a subway seems warranted.  But Portland proves that grade separation is overkill, and in certain ways disadvantageous in a mid-sized city.   

 

 

We've hit 200 pages again!  Huzzah!

 

The modern streetcar tracks in Portland and Seattle don't pull out from stations so you don't have that problem that buses have.

 

Any idea if buses would utilize the streetcar stops' "bumpouts"?  If so, having the streetcar would actually improve bus service by eliminating delays incurred by the need to pull back out into traffic.

We've hit 200 pages again! Huzzah!

 

The modern streetcar tracks in Portland and Seattle don't pull out from stations so you don't have that problem that buses have.

 

Any idea if buses would utilize the streetcar stops' "bumpouts"? If so, having the streetcar would actually improve bus service by eliminating delays incurred by the need to pull back out into traffic.

 

South of Central Parkway the Streetcar will run in the left lane of traffic, so the buses can't use those bumpouts.  in OTR I don't know

Sadly, the GOP seems to determined to make the streetcar opposition the core of the campaign. Arrgh!!! If they keep it fiscal responsibility (and not quote d-bags O'Toole and Cox), then I'll give them a short leash. If they start getting stupid (and talk in coded racist language), I'll be pissed.

 

I'm increasingly convinced that COAST/Smitherman/GOP is all apart of one solid block - not sure who the money is behind it.

Sadly, the GOP seems to determined to make the streetcar opposition the core of the campaign. Arrgh!!! If they keep it fiscal responsibility (and not quote d-bags O'Toole and Cox), then I'll give them a short leash. If they start getting stupid (and talk in coded racist language), I'll be pissed.

 

I'm increasingly convinced that COAST/Smitherman/GOP is all apart of one solid block - not sure who the money is behind it.

 

I doubt there's a conspiracy behind it.  I think what we have are a bunch of people who just don't like the idea of a streetcar, or really any form of mass transit.  It's a very popular view around Cincinnati, sadly.

^The anti-transit people out there are certainly not unique to Cincinnati.

I doubt there's a conspiracy behind it.  I think what we have are a bunch of people who just don't like the idea of a streetcar, or really any form of mass transit.  It's a very popular view around Cincinnati, sadly.

 

http://publictransportation.org/pdf/reports/how_transit_benefits.pdf

Peter Bronson on Streetcars:

http://news.cincinnati.com/apps/pbcs.dll/section?Category=blog03&plckController=Blog&plckScript=blogScript&plckElementId=blogDest&plckBlogPage=BlogViewPost&plckPostId=Blog%3ab0f34581-34e4-4b11-9a69-1df5eb81e786Post%3a44d45f86-5fc0-49c8-a352-9a088e819d59&plckCommentSortOrder=TimeStampAscending&sid=sitelife.cincinnati.com

Ought to retire and move back to Arizona. No, wait, Phoenix has light rail now, and Tucson is building a modern streetcar.

 

Mississippi perhaps?

Little Rock, nope they have one too

That article makes a lot of sense.  If the property was developed first, the streetcar would make a lot of sense.  Right now, all it will be is a shuttle for the homeless and the halfway house residents to ride around town.

That article makes a lot of sense.  If the property was developed first, the streetcar would make a lot of sense.  Right now, all it will be is a shuttle for the homeless and the halfway house residents to ride around town.

 

yea, because thats all who ride the buses right now.  Get on a bus, take it through OTR, and see who gets on and off.  Plus, its proven the streetcar attracts users that don't use buses. 

yea, because thats all who ride the buses right now. Get on a bus, take it through OTR, and see who gets on and off. Plus, its proven the streetcar attracts users that don't use buses.

 

...and the reason given here in this thread is that people don't ride buses because that they don't want to sit next to the homeless, smelly, and/or threatening looking people.  Who do you think will be on the streetcar to nowhere?

That's exactly the wrong mentality we've had about transit for the past several decades. The original builders of the NYC subway and the Chicago 'L' didn't wait around for the city to develop; they built their transit lines out in the middle of nowhere because they knew the city would grow up around them and the ridership would come with the new development. You should see the early photos of these systems, with elevated train lines and stations out in the middle of farmland. Those old farms are now dense urban neighborhoods. The early transit builders knew that if they built it, the city would follow, and the same applies to the streetcar.

yea, because thats all who ride the buses right now.  Get on a bus, take it through OTR, and see who gets on and off.  Plus, its proven the streetcar attracts users that don't use buses. 

 

...and the reason given here in this thread is that people don't ride buses because that they don't want to sit next to the homeless, smelly, and/or threatening looking people.  Who do you think will be on the streetcar to nowhere?

 

Again, go and ride the bus.  You clearly don't. 

yea, because thats all who ride the buses right now. Get on a bus, take it through OTR, and see who gets on and off. Plus, its proven the streetcar attracts users that don't use buses.

 

Who do you think will be on the streetcar to nowhere?

 

DanB, you sound like a Cunningham robot. Get your own personality ... imagine the potential!

No reason to insult.  I think for myself.  Its just common sense.

then 'common sense' would have told you to read the streetcar feasibility study and the UC study on the streetcar feasibility study -- both of which found the streetcar will CREATE a lot of economic development.  What do you know, transportation creating economic development.  WHo would have thought it...

That article makes a lot of sense.  If the property was developed first, the streetcar would make a lot of sense.  Right now, all it will be is a shuttle for the homeless and the halfway house residents to ride around town.

 

The studies show pretty clearly that development is spurred by streetcars.  That being the case, it actually makes more sense to put the streetcar through an area that needs to be renovated than it does through an area that is already booming.  If you think that the streetcar won't spur development, that's fine, but I'd love to see some actual evidence backing that opinion up. 

That's the beauty of an opinion, I don't need any evidence!  I'd be all for it if the 1st leg actually went somewhere useful.  It's one thing to spur development in an undeveloped area, completely another if the area has one of the greatest concentrations of crime in the city.

your common sense tells you that having an opinion based on nothing is valid?  hhhmmm.  Oh the west side of Cincinnati...

you can't even have a conversation without throwing the insults.

That's the beauty of an opinion, I don't need any evidence!  I'd be all for it if the 1st leg actually went somewhere useful.  It's one thing to spur development in an undeveloped area, completely another if the area has one of the greatest concentrations of crime in the city.

 

Can you show me evidence that proves OTR has one of the greatest concentrations of crime in the city?  And how exactly are you defining 'crime?'  Part 1...or.....???

Well no offense DanB, but you can't seem to have a conversation....period.  Mainly because you throw around insults about neighborhoods and opinions about places in which you know nothing of.  You said it yourself, your opinion is baseless.  How can we have a conversation with that without getting a little annoyed? 

I've not thrown any insults around about neighborhoods I know nothing about.  I know what I read, I know what I have experienced in those neighborhoods throughout my years in Cincinnati.  I've not ridden busses through OTR recently, but am just going by what others here have said.  MY OPINION is that the streetcar will not be successsful if the planned loop is the first leg.  If I'm wrong, then I'm wrong, and if I can help stop it, I will.