You said OTR is one of the most crime ridden neighborhoods in the city.  I am simply asking for proof.  Where does it rank? 

http://www.cincinnati-oh.gov/police/pages/-5304-/

That's the beauty of an opinion, I don't need any evidence!  I'd be all for it if the 1st leg actually went somewhere useful.  It's one thing to spur development in an undeveloped area, completely another if the area has one of the greatest concentrations of crime in the city.

 

Well, you actually DO need evidence if you want your opinion to have some weight.  I'm not arguing that OTR is perfect right now; clearly it isn't.  But several well planned studies (along with seeing first hand what rail has done in Portland) have lead me to believe that a rail system can help to revitalize a neighborhood like OTR, which also happens to be an imperiled architectural treasure.  If you don't think that is the case and you also offer no evidence to back this opinion up, that's fine.  Just don't expect to be very convincing. 

That's fine.  I really don't expect to have much of an affect with anyone on this forum.  It's just one man's opinion. 

^Just pointing out that I'm open to other ideas.  Unfortunately, I haven't seen much in the way of actual data from streetcar opponents.  More often than not it just boils down to an opinion or wild accusations (like The Dean's).  Given the the choice, I'm going with the studies.

That's fine.  I wouldn't ridicule you for being in support of the plan.

We love diverse and differing opinions :)

We love diverse and differing opinions :)

 

absolutely.  Especially when those opinions have base and merit and aren't founded upon ignorance and fear. 

There you go again.  Another insult.  I'm not ignorant nor fearful.

Seems like an appropriate time to bring out the hatchet.

While the streetcar will help the development that's already going on in OTR, and spur some more, there are underlying problems that directly and indirectly affect all of OTR, and will do the same to the streetcar.  A lack of jail cells in this city/county, and the large amount of social services and homeless shelters located in OTR are two of the biggest.  I can understand why people are against putting money into solving one problem (lack of decent fixed transit) when there are a few other problems that are potentially more damaging to development.

 

We need to emphasize the efforts to fix those two things (at least) along with the streetcar.  Someone should create a hierarchy of needs for Cincinnati.  Would the streetcar be at the top??

 

  Should the streetcar be at the top?

 

  No.

Thank you

While the streetcar will help the development that's already going on in OTR, and spur some more, there are underlying problems that directly and indirectly affect all of OTR, and will do the same to the streetcar. A lack of jail cells in this city/county, and the large amount of social services and homeless shelters located in OTR are two of the biggest. I can understand why people are against putting money into solving one problem (lack of decent fixed transit) when there are a few other problems that are potentially more damaging to development.

 

We need to emphasize the efforts to fix those two things (at least) along with the streetcar. Someone should create a hierarchy of needs for Cincinnati. Would the streetcar be at the top??

 

Agreed.  But since mass transit and jail funding don't come from the same "pot of money", a deficiency in one shouldn't be held as a reason to delay the other.  There definitely needs to be a new jail, but that's a separate issue.

Money is money.  It all ultimately comes from the same source

Maybe Cincy will be able to build a new jail w/ the increased tax revenues they'll see from the massive reinvestment in downtown and uptown that the streetcar will promote?

Money is money.  It all ultimately comes from the same source

 

No it doesn't.  TIF money used to fund a streetcar in downtown and OTR can never be used to build a jail in Queensgate. 

Never say never

Maybe Cincy will be able to build a new jail w/ the increased tax revenues they'll see from the massive reinvestment in downtown and uptown that the streetcar will promote?

 

Doubt it.  The increased revenue in a TIF will go towards paying off bond debt necessary for TIF funding.  Atleast, I am pretty sure this is how these TIF districts (pay as you go) in OTR work.  Clarification welcome...

There are a lot of empty buildings they can tear down in OTR and build the jail.

There are a lot of empty buildings they can tear down in OTR and build the jail.

 

The jail would have to be within the same TIF as the streetcar to be considered for the same funding, TIF wise.  And based on how the TIFs are laid out - ribboned along certain streets - putting a jail within the TIFs would prove impossible given the large footprint jails need. 

There are a lot of empty buildings they can tear down in OTR and build the jail.

I'm not ignorant

 

Hard to believe you're not ignorant with a claim like that...

Are there not a lot of vacant empty buildings in OTR?  Is it a false claim?

Are there not a lot of vacant empty buildings in OTR?  Is it a false claim?

 

Yes there are a lot of vacant buildings.  But those vacant buildings are extremely important and in an historical district.  Thus, it is a ridiculous (and, IMO ignorant) claim to say 'tear them down for a jail'.....

 

The neighborhood is critical to the future of Cincinnati.  Not Green Township, not Colerain, not West Chester....but OTR.  If we tear the neighborhood down, Cincinnati's competitive edge for the future is lost. 

 

But alas, I know you dont really believe we should tear anything down in OTR.  You're just trying to get attention.  You LOVE it. 

Are there not a lot of vacant empty buildings in OTR?  Is it a false claim?

 

They need to tear down those ugly ranches and tacky vinyl siding boxes in your neighborhood, change the land use and build the aluminum free store there.

See, that's where you are wrong.  It would be nice to keep that architecture, but if it had been that important to previous generations it never would have gotten into such dissrepair, and if the cost of restoration exceeds the cost of tearing down and starting over, so be it.  Doesn't make it ignorant or ridiculous. 

 

The neighborhood may be critical to the future of Cincinnati, but it doesn't have to be in the form its currently in.  I would love nothing more than seeing a revitalized OTR.  I just don't see it happening if something big isn't done about the crime, and the other issues.  I really don't need to get your attention.  I know you young guys live for the internet, but I have a life outside of UO!

 

I noticed you had nothing to say about the crime stats.  Almost 2 calls for every resident of OTR, and you say there is no problem.

Look at the turn around that happened to the lower portion of Vine Street.  At one point 13th and Vine was one of the most crime infested areas of the city, and today there is a Jean Robert restaurant there, and very little crime.  Bring the investment, and the crime will go away (or move).  If a neighborhood is largely vacant (which OTR is), it shouldn't be that hard to see that bringing people and businesses into the neighborhood (which the streetcar will do---see the studies if you don't believe this) will chase the crime away.  How would you suggest "getting rid of crime" without increasing development in the area?

The crime has already been massively reduced thanks to the Sheriff's patrols.  They were able to break down the nonsense going on between bad Cincinnati cops and the dealers who had run things in the area for years.  The Sheriff's patrols left over a year ago but the crime hasn't returned.  Plus, now we have Shadow Hare. 

Look at the turn around that happened to the lower portion of Vine Street.  At one point 13th and Vine was one of the most crime infested areas of the city, and today there is a Jean Robert restaurant there, and very little crime.

  Right on!  It's unbelievable how much it's changed around the gateway Q.  The police need to concentrate on E mcmicken now, that area is screwing up OTR's stats.

I sense goading and trouble-making abounding. Hopefully, we don't need to go through the long list of structural and political reasons why OTR ended up in such a state. At the core, there was a conspiracy of the do-gooders, do-badders, and don't-carers that made that neighborhood the city's toilet for about 50 years - though the West End was always worse that OTR. It is true that the neighborhood was not built for streetcars (or cars for that matter). Horses, walking, and canal boats was about it - two of those aren't coming back. What makes extends a walkable area, streetcars.

The streetcar is not the be all end all solution to all of OTR's problems.  But it is part of the solution.  What 3CDC is doing, what the sheriff patrols are doing, the streetcar and other residents are doing is creating an multi-pronged solution to turn around one of the most historically run down neighborhoods in the country.  Establishing a historic district is a recognition that the neighborhood adds a unique character to the community.  It is this preservation coupled with these urban renewal efforts that can turn OTR into one of the most unique and exciting places in the country.  Think, nowhere else in the US is there a larger collection of German Italianate architecture.  It takes time, effort, commitment (monetarily & personnel) to change the course of a neighborhood for the better and the streetcar is part of that equation.

 

Part of the problem, honestly is perception.  For a long time OTR had that stigma, and it was hard to shake.  Whatever progress that was made before the race riots was set back a few years and

it took 3CDC to reignite that drive and sustain it. 

 

Building a jail in OTR is not the answer.  We need to decentralize social services, not concentrate them.  Look at OTR today and see why this does not work.  Concentrating the poor only creates an unmanageable situation.  John Kozol's Amazing Grace is a good book that lays this out from a NYC perspective.

 

For a long time Cincinnati has been known as a conservative city, and everyone knows the Mark Twain saying...  For the past few years the City has been a progressive City, it has been finally moving forward.  I work in Northern Kentucky for one of the Cities.  A few years ago, all the tower cranes were in Bellevue, Newport and Covington.  Now we in Kentucky have stalled projects and no cranes while the Cincy side has four in downtown. 

 

A lot of people share in this cognitive dissonance where they emphasize these crime, poverty or abandon property numbers without looking at/or ignoring the positive developments in the urban core.  It's easy for opponents to shoot the streetcar down if they segregate it from the vision and obfuscate its placement in the solution.  I just hope people can see the bigger picture.

See, that's where you are wrong. It would be nice to keep that architecture, but if it had been that important to previous generations it never would have gotten into such dissrepair, and if the cost of restoration exceeds the cost of tearing down and starting over, so be it. Doesn't make it ignorant or ridiculous.

 

So if something wasn't important to previous generations it isn't important now?  Would you not admit that previous generations have made huge mistakes when it comes to things like this, i.e., ripping apart intercity neighborhoods to build interstates in the 1950s?

I work in Northern Kentucky for one of the Cities. A few years ago, all the tower cranes were in Bellevue, Newport and Covington. Now we in Kentucky have stalled projects and no cranes while the Cincy side has four in downtown.

 

Not that I disagree, but to be fair to NKY, a lot of those projects (like the Ascent and SouthShore) are now completed, and the one I can think of that stalled (Newport Pavillion), is currently stalled because of Bear Creek's financial woes, just as Bear Creek's project in Kenwood in stalled.  It doesn't have much to do with Cincy being more "progressive" than NKY or vice versa.  Not sure if that's where you were heading with that or not...

 

Speaking of NKY, I'd love to hear Newport and/or Covington pipe up a little more about their hopes to be part of the proposed Streetcar network.

Re: The bad perception that OTR has/had.

 

I remember as a kid only hearing about OTR.  I thought it was a place that people just did not go to, under any circumstances.  I remember being with my mom as she dropped some clothes off at a shelter (something like that...can't remember the details) and just being amazed that I was actually driving through Over the Rhine.  I would go downtown all the time as a kid, and ever since I was born my mom worked at UC, so I was in Clifton all the time too, but I just never went down the hill, or accross Central Parkway.

 

Even now I am still hesitant, and think twice when crossing Central Parkway.  I consider myself to be an urbanist, and I love OTR, but that reputation it had from my childhood still rubs off sometimes.  When driving through almost any other part of the city I don't usually even think about it, but for some reason, crossing into OTR has a sort of "forbidden land" feeling to it.  I walked around the Q this summer one afternoon, and had absolutely no problems at all, but I still found myself keep thinking "wow I'm in Over the Rhine...alone, walking around!".  I don't know how to over come this perception for people that grew up in the worst days of OTR, other than massive gentrification.

^I feel the same way, but I actually had a good friend that lived in OTR for a few years about a decade ago.  I didn't know much about OTR before then, but it was pretty rough and I remember a ton of bad things about it.  But the neighborhood has a ton of potential, is architecturally amazing, and is right next to downtown, so I continue to hope for the best.

My experiences are similar to edale's. I grew up across the river in Fort Thomas (so-called "Cake Town"), and although both my parents worked in Cincinnati and we'd make frequent family trips into downtown and other parts of the city, OTR was always considered a no-man's-land. Central Parkway may as well have been the Great Wall of China.

 

The transformation of OTR over the past few years has been nothing short of miraculous. During recent visits back home to Cincy, I've made a point to do some exploring of the neighborhood, and while some parts still have a long ways to go, other parts of OTR are stunning. The neighborhood is becoming like Cincinnati's answer to NYC's Lower East Side, but at a fraction of the rent.

 

There's a possibility I may be moving back to Cincy next year for grad school (fingers crossed)... It would be my first time living in the area since 1984. Many things have changed, but I think OTR is the most dramatic and the most positive change. I'm uncertain if I'd actually move there myself (having lived in Brooklyn and Washington Heights for the past several years, I feel like I'm somewhat burned-out on hardcore urban life in general right now... I think Mt. Lookout might be more my style), but I can no longer dismiss OTR out of hand.

^

Would be a good LTE to The Enquirer.

Look at the turn around that happened to the lower portion of Vine Street. At one point 13th and Vine was one of the most crime infested areas of the city, and today there is a Jean Robert restaurant there, and very little crime. Bring the investment, and the crime will go away (or move). If a neighborhood is largely vacant (which OTR is), it shouldn't be that hard to see that bringing people and businesses into the neighborhood (which the streetcar will do---see the studies if you don't believe this) will chase the crime away. How would you suggest "getting rid of crime" without increasing development in the area?

 

Thank you, you are proving my point.  All of this can happen before the streetcar. 

^If $102 million is spent subsidizing retail and residential, the public does not retain public ownership of that investment. Also, as has been pointed out repeatedly, better public transportation will reduce the need for parking garages as the neighborhood repopulates.  A high percentage of a $102 million direct subsidy would be for parking garages, not housing and retail. 

Maybe the new jail could be built in DanB's neighborhood. I'm sure Sharonville would welcome the development.

Look at the turn around that happened to the lower portion of Vine Street. At one point 13th and Vine was one of the most crime infested areas of the city, and today there is a Jean Robert restaurant there, and very little crime. Bring the investment, and the crime will go away (or move). If a neighborhood is largely vacant (which OTR is), it shouldn't be that hard to see that bringing people and businesses into the neighborhood (which the streetcar will do---see the studies if you don't believe this) will chase the crime away. How would you suggest "getting rid of crime" without increasing development in the area?

 

Thank you, you are proving my point. All of this can happen before the streetcar.

 

Not really. There's a limit on how many cars you can store in OTR. And there's a limit on how far people will walk from there to their jobs in the CBD. I'm guessing it's about 14th Street for most people. The best real estate in OTR is much farther north of there.

 

Sooner or later, development in OTR will bump up against these limits, and the momentum will stall.

There are a lot of empty buildings they can tear down in OTR and build the jail.

 

Why tear down buildings in OTR for a jail when land in Camp Washington was donated specifically for a new jail?  And didn't this location have the support of the Camp Washington Community Council? 

 

I agree that there needs to be a new jail, but I can't see why the county can't build a new jail at the same time the city is building a new streetcar.  Whenever someone argues that the money for the streetcar should be used for a jail instead, I always wonder how that individual voted on the jail tax.  I believe that both a new jail and a streetcar are very important projects.

There are a lot of empty buildings they can tear down in OTR and build the jail.

 

 

I agree that there needs to be a new jail, but I can't see why the county can't build a new jail at the same time the city is building a new streetcar.

 

 

Because Cincinnati has developed a scarcity mentality. It's pervasive, and it has held our city back for a decade.

Money is money.  It all ultimately comes from the same source

No it doesn't.  TIF money used to fund a streetcar in downtown and OTR can never be used to build a jail in Queensgate.

 

This is an extremely childish conversation that I am jumping into for some reason:

 

1) Money does not all come from the same pot.  Even your point is that it all comes from taxes, not all taxes go into a general fund.  Someone who pays property taxes and gets an itemized tax bill should understand that.  By making such a claim, you are stating that  you either don't know what you are talking about, or simply aren't serious in addressing the issue, or both.

 

2) TIF stands for Tax Increment Financing.  The idea is that a city should be able to borrow against future tax receipts that will accrue from the whatever is being purchased for the present day.  The only thing is that it is  geographically limited, hence the "district" in TIF district.  So it works like any other loan or bond: money is collected presently based on the expectation of future income available to pay back the principal plus the agreed upon interest.  But think about it: does a jail add to the tax revenue?  Nope.  Jails don't bring in taxes, they are what we you use taxes to pay for.  So they couldn't be used for a TIF, because TIF exist based on increased return after present input.

 

An aside- don't let Sheriff Leis or Leslie Ghiz let you believe that the lack of a jail has anything to do with the City of Cincinnati.  The City is just as much a part of Hamilton County as Anderson, Sycamore, or Indian Hill.  The County is a state created entity, and has the authority to jail people based on violations of state law (murder, rape, etc.)  The City pays the county to jail people who violate City ordinances.  The County's lack of money has to do with the mismanagement of County and State affairs over low these many years.

There are a lot of empty buildings they can tear down in OTR and build the jail.

 

 

 

 

I agree that there needs to be a new jail, but I can't see why the county can't build a new jail at the same time the city is building a new streetcar.

 

 

Because Cincinnati has developed a scarcity mentality. It's pervasive, and it has held our city back for a decade.

 

That's interesting John, could you expand on that a little?

I agree with John. It seems like many people in Cincy view any development or infrastructure investment as a zero-sum game in which resources put toward one project or neighborhood must necessarily come at the expense of another project or neighborhood. The mentality seems to be along the lines of:

 

"We can't build Project X until we build Project Y, because we obviously can't build both projects at the same time."

"Funding for Project A means there will be less funding available for Project B."

"Every pothole that gets fixed on the east side is one less pothole that gets fixed on the west side."

"Any development in Northern Kentucky is a loss for downtown Cincinnati."

"My suburban tax dollars shouldn't be used to support boondoggle welfare projects in the inner city."

 

This type of small-minded, parochial thinking is what the streetcar supporters are up against. People need to realize that the forces that determine the success or failure of Greater Cincinnati are global in nature and don't give a damn about state lines or municipal boundaries, and that the region will succeed or fail as a whole.

I work in Northern Kentucky for one of the Cities. A few years ago, all the tower cranes were in Bellevue, Newport and Covington. Now we in Kentucky have stalled projects and no cranes while the Cincy side has four in downtown.

 

Not that I disagree, but to be fair to NKY, a lot of those projects (like the Ascent and SouthShore) are now completed, and the one I can think of that stalled (Newport Pavillion), is currently stalled because of Bear Creek's financial woes, just as Bear Creek's project in Kenwood in stalled. It doesn't have much to do with Cincy being more "progressive" than NKY or vice versa. Not sure if that's where you were heading with that or not...

 

Speaking of NKY, I'd love to hear Newport and/or Covington pipe up a little more about their hopes to be part of the proposed Streetcar network.

 

The first phases have been completed but the second phases have been put on hold.  The problem in NKY is too much saturation in the condo market. I was getting at the theory that when Cincinnati does not have its act together, NKY benefits because developers are likely to go there to develop.  Now Cincy seems like its getting it together and coming back with a vengeance.

 

Covington and Newport both passed resolutions supporting the streetcar.  There has been some talk at Southbank Partners about supporting the streetcar for a Northern Kentucky loop.  For now, they are more focused on bringing Riverfront Commons to fruition.

I think the cost overruns at PBS and the nonperformance of the teams following a huge investment by taxpayers has soured locals on public spending on anything that's not viewed as an essential service. Actually, I don't think it ... I know it based on polling I've seen.

 

The Riverfront Advisors over-promised on The Banks, raising expectations way too high (it was all going to be done in 2006, remember)? Throw-in the so-called Riot of 2001, and the result is that many people have been in a disinvestment mode around here for a decade.

 

With able leadership -- and I think we have that now -- this will change over time. We just need a few more successes to get people thinking about the long run here. The decision to invest a billion dollars to completely rebuilt or renovate all of our public schools was the first step, and CPS enrollment is now rising. Fountain Square was a great and visible move. When it's further along, 3CDC's work in OTR will be another, but it's not really been that noticeable to the region as a whole. I think The Banks coming up above street-level this summer will provide a major boost. And stupid as it sounds, the Reds' having a good year will make more people feel some of the riverfront investment was worth it. When the eastside Banks and the Central Riverfront Park are complete in a couple of years, most Cincinnatians will finally see where all this has been going.

 

And then, when all that's done, some enterprising reporter -- if there are any left -- will show how all of this was paid for from multiple sources. And he or she will probably find that the local benefits far exceed the total local cost.

 

There have been periods like this before. After being named by Life Magazine as "the best-governed city in America" in the Fifties, Cincinnati was adrift by the early-Sixties. Then a group of business leaders plotted out an entirely new downtown including Riverfront Stadium. President Kennedy laid the very first building block, speaking at the groundbreaking of a new Federal Building from the southeast corner of Fifth and Main.

 

A friend of mine has a great saying: "We're running a marathon here, not a sprint." We'll get there. 

The transformation of OTR over the past few years has been nothing short of miraculous. During recent visits back home to Cincy, I've made a point to do some exploring of the neighborhood, and while some parts still have a long ways to go, other parts of OTR are stunning. The neighborhood is becoming like Cincinnati's answer to NYC's Lower East Side, but at a fraction of the rent.

 

This comparison is so right on, that I've made this distinction as well months back! When I was walking around the LES, I was like ... this is just like Over-The-Rhine! The historic buildings, narrow streets, and dense neighborhood make it almost impossible to drive ... so everyone just walks! Now you have a crime-rate in free-fall due to pedestrians on the streets!

Been a while since I have been on, just catching up...

 

-Hamilton County does not need additional space for incarceration.  Building a jail = pleading for racial issues and further disenfranchisement of black neighborhoods, which is extremely taxing on the city financially and socially.

 

-I agree with John.  The stadium deal has soured Cincinnati on a big spending plan that doesn't have 75 or 71 in it, though I would definitely classify 2001 as a very serious riot.

 

-The Metro is underfunded and poorly planned.  Let's all agree that is the major reason our bus system is terrible.

 

-The scale of OTR should be utilized no matter what gentrification or advances in transit occur downtown.  Our downtown neighborhoods are on the scale of a place like LES and Boston's downtown areas.  We have to remind the world and ourselves that we live in one of the more elite urban fabrics in America.