Hamilton County does not need more jail cells? How can you justify that statement when Queensgate, which contained several hundred cells, was abruptly closed? Where did those convicts go to? If we can't even afford ankle bracelets without Mallory threatening a veto, what other measures do we have except to release convicts back onto the street?

 

That's what happened in the Lytle Park rape. The convict had been arrested multiple times prior but was released each and every time because there was a lack of jail space and ankle bracelets.

Hamilton county does need jail cells and/or a better system of deciding who needs to be incarcerated and who can be punished/rehabilitated in other manners. 

Hamilton County needs jails and Cincinnati needs a streetcar. The two have nothing to do with one another.

Given that the streetcar plan goes through the area with a high crime rate and most of the social services, the 2 have much in common.

I would definitely classify 2001 as a very serious riot

 

Yea,  knocking over hotdog and newspaper stands  is a "very serious riot"  :wink: Sure there were a few fires and store windows broken but it was mostly just hoodlums running around.  The media totally blew the whole thing out of proportion and OTR suffered for a couple of years.  If you guys are afraid to cross central pkwy, I will hold your hand and walk you across. It's not  that scary.. geez.  :roll:

 

You know what scares me??  DOWNTOWN west chester, sharonville

It most definitely was a riot, and it wasn't just in Over the Rhine.  I read that there were several hundred attempts to start fires in OTR, but because it rained basically the whole time, many of them didn't take off.  I really don't know if OTR is in as good of a position as it was in the late 90's.  Back then Main St. was THE place to go for nightlife, and the "Digital Rhine" was supposed to be taking OTR in a whole new direction.  Then the riots hit, and the tech bubble burst, and now Main is dead, and we have a few blocks of Vine that have been re-developed.

 

What is really pathetic about this thread is that probably the last 50 pages have just been intra forum banter.  When's the last time we heard real news about the streetcar?  The City Manager was supposed to report in Janurary or February on the state of his fundraising campaign...well it's May now, and we still have heard nothing.  Then our hopes turned towards the Obama infrastructure money, but we're seeing other cities get their money for streetcars, and not us.  I don't know why it's so god damn hard for this city to actually accomplish anything in a timely fashion.

I know it can be frustrating, but we have to admit that things that looked affordable and accessible a year ago may not be for the foreseeable future. Money and accessible debt simply has disappeared. Big splash building time may be passing (QCS and the Banks) is likely the exception. This isn't about Cincy per se. I do agree that scarcity (which I think is a much better word than conservative or reactionary) is a good description for the local mindset. I think John is mostly right that as the previous commitments to investment show positive effects, the willingness to make another big investment will return.

 

Honestly, the Who Dey Revolution folks seem particularly evocative of this vibe - every leak about the horridness of the Bengals only drives home the mistake we all made.

I would definitely classify 2001 as a very serious riot

 

Yea,  knocking over hotdog and newspaper stands  is a "very serious riot"  :wink: Sure there were a few fires and store windows broken but it was mostly just hoodlums running around.  The media totally blew the whole thing out of proportion and OTR suffered for a couple of years.  If you guys are afraid to cross central pkwy, I will hold your hand and walk you across. It's not  that scary.. geez.  :roll:

 

You know what scares me??  DOWNTOWN west chester, sharonville

 

April 2001 riots and the boycott set this city back ten years, easy.  Not sure where your value system lies, but A LOT of people have been murdered in Cincinnati since the riots, and at a significantly higher rate.  Sadly, human life seems more disposable to those with less ties to the ghetto than those in the midst of the crisis who are seen as the problem.

 

When has it been proven that locking away as many brown people as possible deters crime, fixes your city's financial situation, and brings cohesiveness between communities of varying ethnicity and class?  The prison industrial complex and the unjust laws that justify it cause crime by preying on other ills of society (public education, housing, generational poverty) in order to gain capital while fracturing the already taxed homestead and community.  If you are convicted of a crime, you are a criminal.  This does not mean you earned a ticket to hell, or you deserve to be declared a lost cause, but that's all I ever hear thrown around in Cincinnati.  In many Third World nations and developing countries, the laws are three times as tough, and there's not even a pseudo-democratic process in place like the one we have here.  This still has not curbed violence and corruption, because if it did, they might not be "developing countries" anymore.

 

Rehabilitate.  Legislate.  Re-define crime.  Do not build more jails.  Build streetcars and affordable commercial districts in impoverished areas.

At this point it appears that the City manage manager not brief councilbefore the summer recess (as he was supposed to do in December) about the status of fundraising the implementation strategy for the project.

What is really pathetic about this thread is that probably the last 50 pages have just been intra forum banter. When's the last time we heard real news about the streetcar? The City Manager was supposed to report in Janurary or February on the state of his fundraising campaign...well it's May now, and we still have heard nothing. Then our hopes turned towards the Obama infrastructure money, but we're seeing other cities get their money for streetcars, and not us. I don't know why it's so god damn hard for this city to actually accomplish anything in a timely fashion.

I have a feeling that once the whole added issue of stimulus money is figured out, the project will be moving forward very quickly.  Maybe someone who is more familiar with the disbursement of stimulus money can elaborate on that process.

It's still making its rounds in Ohio, but you'll hear more about Ohio's disbursement of stimulus money to transportation enhancement projects soon.

Why would New York City, which already has a fantastic grade-separated subway system, consider adding Streetcars to one of its boroughs?  Maybe because they see it creates additional transit-oriented development.  But what does NYC know about mass transit, right?

 

http://thetransportpolitic.com/2009/05/07/streetcars-for-brooklyn-a-new-life/

Why would New York City, which already has a fantastic grade-separated subway system, consider adding Streetcars to one of its boroughs?  Maybe because they see it creates additional transit-oriented development.  But what does NYC know about mass transit, right?

 

http://thetransportpolitic.com/2009/05/07/streetcars-for-brooklyn-a-new-life/

 

Thats more of a pipe dream just like that website.

 

People have been talking about those same Brooklyn proposals since 1997. 

 

The MTA is in financial ruins, and cannot keep the current systems running properly.  I can't see MTA building street cars anytime soon.

Given that most of Manhattan's subway lines run north-south, I think modern low-floor streetcars in dedicated lanes would make a lot of sense on many crosstown routes and other corridors where busses are inadequate but a full subway line isn't warranted. Unfortunately I can't provide links right now, but I know the city has studied the idea of running streetcars on 42nd Street as well as on the East Side. (Presumably any East Side streetcar would be designed to compliment the perpetually-under-construction 2nd Avenue Subway.)

 

There are many parts of the outer boroughs that don't have direct subway access, and where streetcars could be effectively used as feeders into subway and commuter rail lines in other neighborhoods. Red Hook, Brooklyn is a perfect example of such an area. The new IKEA and Fairway stores are drawing a lot of new development to that neighborhood, but the closest subway station at Smith/9th is a considerable walk away.

 

A rail enthusiast named Bob Diamond tried building a streetcar line in Red Hook back in the 90's using historic PCC streetcars, but that was entirely a privately-funded operation that is currently stalled. I understand through the grapevine that Mr. Diamond had a lot of personality issues that ultimately doomed that project.

 

The MTA is currently in bad shape financially, but capital funding and operational funding come from different pots, and nothing says the City of New York or some other entity couldn't build these streetcar lines.

Given that most of Manhattan's subway lines run north-south, I think modern low-floor streetcars in dedicated lanes would make a lot of sense on many crosstown routes and other corridors where busses are inadequate but a full subway line isn't warranted. Unfortunately I can't provide links right now, but I know the city has studied the idea of running streetcars on 42nd Street as well as on the East Side. (Presumably any East Side streetcar would be designed to compliment the perpetually-under-construction 2nd Avenue Subway.)

 

There are many parts of the outer boroughs that don't have direct subway access, and where streetcars could be effectively used as feeders into subway and commuter rail lines in other neighborhoods. Red Hook, Brooklyn is a perfect example of such an area. The new IKEA and Fairway stores are drawing a lot of new development to that neighborhood, but the closest subway station at Smith/9th is a considerable walk away.

 

A rail enthusiast named Bob Diamond tried building a streetcar line in Red Hook back in the 90's using historic PCC streetcars, but that was entirely a privately-funded operation that is currently stalled. I understand through the grapevine that Mr. Diamond had a lot of personality issues that ultimately doomed that project.

 

The MTA is currently in bad shape financially, but capital funding and operational funding come from different pots, and nothing says the City of New York or some other entity couldn't build these streetcar lines.

 

IIRC, NYC cannot build anything, it has to be the MTA.  The transit governing body for the region.

The issue isn't that black-and-white. The city operates the Staten Island Ferry and East River bridges. The Port Authority operates the airports, Hudson River crossings, and the PATH subway. The Roosevelt Island Tram is operated by its own little agency, and there are a multitude of private bus lines and water taxi operations in the region.

 

Anyway, we're getting off-topic...

The issue isn't that black-and-white. The city operates the Staten Island Ferry and East River bridges. The Port Authority operates the airports, Hudson River crossings, and the PATH subway. The Roosevelt Island Tram is operated by its own little agency, and there are a multitude of private bus lines and water taxi operations in the region.

 

Anyway, we're getting off-topic...

The MTA operates the staten island ferry. 

 

The port Authority owns and operates the HUDSON River crossing, the bridges that go between NY and NJ states (and airports) since it is a bi state authority.

 

The MTA control operates and maintains the other bridges, known as the B&T.

 

All of the private bus lines have been absorbed by the the MTA's NYC Transit Bus division, which is why "two fare zones" were eliminated. That happened in 2003.

 

If its in metro NYC (NYC, Long Island or the counties of the Hudson Valley)  the MTA will have be the authority to run any street, bus (NYC Transit, LI Bus, Etc.), subway (NYC Transit, SIR) or commuter rail (MTA or LIRR) that runs. 

 

Back to Cinci...

That article makes a lot of sense.  If the property was developed first, the streetcar would make a lot of sense.  Right now, all it will be is a shuttle for the homeless and the halfway house residents to ride around town.

 

I'm assuming that you and your neighbors moved to West Chester BEFORE I-75 was built? It was built to accommodate development that was already there?

 

Development follows infrastructure, not the other way around. The infrastructure had to be there first.

 

Redevelopment in OTR couldn't be fully realized without the streetcar being there first.

Back to Cinci...

 

Umm, not so fast. The NYC Department of Transportation (a city agency) owns and operates the Staten Island Ferry, the Brooklyn Bridge, the Manhattan Bridge, the Williamsburg Bridge, the Queensboro Bridge, and all of the Harlem River bridges except for the Henry Hudson Bridge.

 

The MTA (a state agency) owns and operates the Henry Hudson Bridge, the Verrazano Narrows Bridge, the Brooklyn-Battery Tunnel, the Queens-Midtown Tunnel, the Triboro Bridge, the Throgs Neck Bridge, the Bronx-Whitestone Bridge, and a couple of toll bridges serving the Rockaways.

 

And although the Port Authority is a bi-state agency, the PATH subway under 6th Avenue also serves the same stations as the MTA's B/D/F/V subway lines, and the JFK AirTrain operates entirely within the NYC city limits to provide connections between MTA rail stations and JFK Airport.

 

I live in NYC and my professional work involves these agencies on a daily basis, and the MTA is one of several agencies that own and operate the transportation infrastructure of the region. Sometimes they work in partnership with other providers (such as joint MTA Metro North - NJ Transit commuter rail service west of the Hudson), but they aren't the only game in town and there is no legal reason why NYCDOT couldn't build and operate a streetcar system on city streets if they chose to do so. In reality, such a streetcar system would likely involve some sort of partnership between the city and the MTA.

Back to Cinci...

 

Umm, not so fast. The NYC Department of Transportation (a city agency) owns and operates the Staten Island Ferry, the Brooklyn Bridge, the Manhattan Bridge, the Williamsburg Bridge, the Queensboro Bridge, and all of the Harlem River bridges except for the Henry Hudson Bridge.

 

The MTA (a state agency) owns and operates the Henry Hudson Bridge, the Verrazano Narrows Bridge, the Brooklyn-Battery Tunnel, the Queens-Midtown Tunnel, the Triboro Bridge, the Throgs Neck Bridge, the Bronx-Whitestone Bridge, and a couple of toll bridges serving the Rockaways.

 

And although the Port Authority is a bi-state agency, the PATH subway under 6th Avenue also serves the same stations as the MTA's B/D/F/V subway lines, and the JFK AirTrain operates entirely within the NYC city limits to provide connections between MTA rail stations and JFK Airport.

 

I live in NYC and my professional work involves these agencies on a daily basis, and the MTA is one of several agencies that own and operate the transportation infrastructure of the region. Sometimes they work in partnership with other providers (such as joint MTA Metro North - NJ Transit commuter rail service west of the Hudson), but they aren't the only game in town and there is no legal reason why NYCDOT couldn't build and operate a streetcar system on city streets if they chose to do so. In reality, such a streetcar system would likely involve some sort of partnership between the city and the MTA.

 

I live in NYC as well and my job too deals with these agencies.

 

I've always been under the impression the SIR is an MTA controlled busines.

 

The PA PATH trains use some of the same access points as the F/V on Six avenue.  That's because their tunnel was built inbetween the local and express tunnel under sixth avenue.  I know the purpose of Airtrains and the joint venture between NJT and Metro for upstate service.  That airtrain project was initially a three airport project so the PA was the lead.  LGA portion was dumped.

 

However, building a street car line would need MTA's blessing.  Just like any rail/bus in Cleveland needs to be funneled via RTA.

The most likely scenario for a NYC streetcar would be for the city to build it and retain ownership of the infrastructure, and then partner with the MTA to operate it. (In fact, I believe the City of New York still has legal title to a substantial portion of the subway infrastructure, even though it's all operated by the MTA.)

 

This is pretty much how Portland built and operates their streetcar: The city builds the physical infrastructure, and then has Tri-Met operate it. I suspect the Cincinnati streetcar will ultimately enter into a similar agreement with SORTA.

Here it is -- the missing link between Chris Smitherman, COAST, The Blue Ash Airport, Glencoe, and The Streetcar:

 

http://thephonyconey.blogspot.com/2009/05/its-blue-ash-airport-mcfly.html

Here it is -- the missing link between Chris Smitherman, COAST, The Blue Ash Airport, Glencoe, and The Streetcar:

 

http://thephonyconey.blogspot.com/2009/05/its-blue-ash-airport-mcfly.html

 

This. Is. Awesome. The truth revealed. When I argued against Gloyd's comments on Cunningham's WLW show I found it very strange that  someone could be that stupid and really think that this was a "coal powered trolly." Turns out they're not stupid, just greedy and waiting for their kickback.

 

Streetcars here we come, suck it Smitherman!

Gloyd doesn't have political instincts and so doesn't even realize he's being played by Finney or whoever's really at COAST's reigns.

I knew Smitherman had to be opposing the streetcar for reasons other than pure ideology. The "Dean", of course, is a willing tool. This whole saga is starting to read like a Coen Brothers screenplay.

How is the word being spread?

Re: NYC argument above - note that all those NYCDOT assets are free (Brk, Manh, W'burg, Qboro, Hrlm Rvr bridges; SI Ferry).  I'm not sure that NYCDOT has the authority to collect fares/tolls.  I seem to recall in all the past discussions of East River bridge tolls/congestion pricing, the assets would have to be transferred (in some way) to MTA.

 

(I'm LIG's and MTS's inverse - used to live in Manhattan and work with those agencies.  Now live in Cincy.)

I knew Smitherman had to be opposing the streetcar for reasons other than pure ideology. The "Dean", of course, is a willing tool. This whole saga is starting to read like a Coen Brothers screenplay.

 

Oh the Dean's a tool, alright.  Couldn't resist.

 

Does he still post on here?  I haven't seen him in awhile.  I imagine he's too busy defending himself on his own site, which magically saw a huge uptick in traffic ever since he's been so outspoken about his position on the streetcar issue.  Coincidence?

Have you seen his latest manufactured controversy? Apparently the image that shows a Portland streetcar Photoshopped in front of Music Hall is dishonest because it doesn't show the catenary wire overhead... So The Dean™ responds by showing a "realistic" image: a streetcar in Seattle passing under a bird's nest of overhead wires where two electric trolley bus lines intersect the streetcar route. Nevermind the fact that Cincinnati has no electric trolley bus lines and has no plans to build any.

 

Ironically, Cincinnati's original streetcars had two overhead wires because some locals were paranoid about the running rails being used as the negative ground return. They were apparently convinced that it would contaminate the soil and groundwater. I guess there's nothing new about The Dean's™ brand of stupid when it comes to streetcars in Cincinnati.

If you want to see what streetcar wires look like, go here:

 

http://www.pro-transit.com/PICS/

 

Starting with the first slide and appearing several times through the slide show, you'll see many images of the wires against all colors of skies and foliage cover.

 

One of my favorite things to do when I take skeptics to Portland is to ask them a couple hours into the tour, "Has anyone noticed the overhead wires yet?" Hardly anyone ever says they have.

 

We're going again on May 29th if anyone's interested.

Of course, there's the obvious solution to the overhead wire "problem": Build a real subway with third rail power. I wonder if The Dean™ and his COAST friends would get on board with that idea. :D

Slow news day? Write an article with no new information and a slightly negative tone for the locals to get uppity about. And let the inasnity on the Cincinnati.com boards begin.

 

I love how this is downtown's pet project that ignores the needs of other neighborhoods sometimes and the Streetcar through the killing fields of OTR at others depending on the argument trying to be made. It can't very well be both

 

 

City plan: A streetcar named desire?

By Barry M. Horstman • [email protected] • May 13, 2009

http://news.cincinnati.com/article/20090513/NEWS01/305130075/City+plan++A+streetcar+named+desire?

 

The plan to build a downtown Cincinnati trolley system remains, for now, a streetcar named desire.

 

It's desire that recession-wracked local companies will help fund the project, desire that Washington provides a very big check and desire that a proposed ballot measure doesn’t derail the whole thing.

 

Nearly two years after a consultant’s report gave a green light to the streetcar proposal, city leaders hope to move forward this spring by selecting a firm to build, operate and maintain a roughly 6-mile loop linking the downtown riverfront to the Uptown neighborhoods near the University of Cincinnati.said.

That article has been updated so you can vote on whether or not you support the streetcar.  Vote!

 

http://news.cincinnati.com/article/20090513/NEWS01/305130075/1055/NEWS/Will+streetcar+stay+on+track?

>Nevermind the fact that Cincinnati has no electric trolley bus lines and has no plans to build any.

 

The issue has been addressed here (second article)

http://thephonyconey.blogspot.com/

The Phoney Coney has new articles up that thoroughly debunk The Dean's™ latest bogeyman arguments.

 

Anybody have any idea who The Provost is? He's got some spunk, and his new blog is off to a strong start.

The Provost is a man that only exists in legends and fairy tales.

Sort of like an online version of the Shadow Hare, huh?

I have met The Provost. He defies description.

He's like The Dean, but the opposite.

Well, if I ever meet him, I'll gladly buy him a drink.

^

 

He appears to be quite young. I doubt that he's old enough to drink.

^

 

He appears to be quite young. I doubt that he's old enough to drink.

 

But he has the wisdom of a much older man

This may be a month old, but it's still very applicable......

 

http://www.aaanewsroom.net/Main/Default.asp?CategoryID=4&ArticleID=672

 

 

Contact: Christie Hyde

Email: [email protected]

Phone: 407-444-8003

 

Despite lower fuel prices, AAA reports costs to own, operate vehicle remain constant

Orlando, Fla. - 4/8/2009

 

Motorists spend 54 cents per mile on average according to AAA’s 2009 edition of “Your Driving Costs,” only 0.1 cent drop from 2008 

 

AAA’s 2009 edition of “Your Driving Costs” shows the average cost of owning and operating a new car in the U.S. has remained relatively unchanged despite lower fuel costs. The average cost for a new sedan driven 15,000 miles per year is 54 cents per mile, only 0.1 cent less than reported in 2008.

 

“While motorists are experiencing relief at the pump, those savings have been countered by revised Environmental Protection Agency fuel economy estimates and increases in vehicle ownership costs such as insurance premiums, depreciation, finance charges and other fees and taxes,” said AAA Automotive Vice President Marshall L. Doney.

 

New sedan costs average $8,095 yearly

 

AAA estimates the cost to own and operate a typical new sedan driven 15,000 miles yearly is $8,095, only $26 less than last year’s estimated cost of $8,121. Small sedan costs were unchanged at 42.1 cents per mile, or $6,312 annually. Medium sedan costs dropped 1.1 cents per mile to 54.0, or $8,105 per year, thanks to maintenance cost savings and lower depreciation. However the costs for large sedans rose 0.7 cents per mile to 65.8, or $9,870 yearly, due largely to increased depreciation.

 

SUV costs drop, minivan’s jump

 

SUV owners, whose vehicles get lower fuel economy, benefitted most from the drop in fuel prices. Their estimated operating costs dipped 1.3 cents per mile to 68.4 cents, or $10,259 per year, despite a relatively large increase in depreciation and insurance premiums. Meanwhile, minivan costs jumped 1.2 cents per mile to 58.8 cents, or $8,815 yearly. The growth is due to cost increases in every area except fuel and included the largest rise in depreciation of any vehicle class.

 

New EPA baselines provide better “real world” results

 

AAA’s 2009 edition of “Your Driving Costs” uses the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency’s revised fuel-economy estimates that are intended to better reflect “real world” results.

 

“AAA was a strong advocate for updating the EPA’s guidelines for calculating fuel economy so new car buyers could have a realistic estimate of a vehicle’s miles per gallon before their purchase,” Doney said. “The ability to use EPA estimates more closely based on ‘real world’ conditions in our calculations has made ‘Your Driving Costs’ an even more valuable tool for consumers.”

 

Understanding the calculations

 

AAA’s calculations are based on both operating and ownership costs that include:

 

Operating Costs: Fuel, Maintenance and Tires

 

Ownership Costs: Insurance, License, Registration, Taxes, Depreciation and Financing

 

The costs are based on typical use of a vehicle for personal transportation over five years and 75,000 miles of ownership. Fuel costs were based on $2.30 per gallon, as reported by the AAA Fuel Gauge Report (AAAFuelGaugeReport.com) in late 2008.

 

AAA’s analysis covers vehicles equipped with standard and optional equipment. The driving costs in each category are based on the average expenses for five top-selling models selected by AAA. The models included in the study are:

 

Small Sedans: Chevrolet Cobalt, Ford Focus, Honda Civic, Nissan Sentra and Toyota Corolla

 

Medium Sedans: Chevrolet Impala, Ford Fusion, Honda Accord, Nissan Altima and Toyota Camry

 

Large Sedans: Buick Lucerne, Chrysler 300, Ford Taurus, Nissan Maxima and Toyota Avalon

 

SUVs: Chevrolet Trailblazer, Ford Explorer, Jeep Grand Cherokee, Nissan Pathfinder and Toyota 4Runner

 

Minivans: Chevrolet Uplander, Dodge Grand Caravan, Kia Sedona, Honda Odyssey and Toyota Sienna

 

“Your Driving Costs” availability

 

A hard copy of the “Your Driving Costs” brochure is available upon request, and subject to availability, from local AAA clubs. The brochure also can be downloaded free of charge from the AAA Exchange at AAA.com/publicaffairs.

 

As North America’s largest motoring and leisure travel organization, AAA provides more than 51 million members with travel, insurance, financial and automotive-related services. Since its founding in 1902, the not-for-profit, fully tax-paying AAA has been a leader and advocate for the safety and security of all travelers. AAA clubs can be visited on the Internet at AAA.com.

 

###

Cincinnatians for Progress has launched their new website. Go check it out and show them some love.

Cincinnatians for Progress has launched their new website. Go check it out and show them some love.

 

I went on and signed up to volunteer with a bunch of stuff... I'm at the point in my life where I'm really looking to get involved with these types of things!

I wish I lived in Cincy so that I could get more involved with this effort. Living here in NYC at the moment, I feel a bit helpless.

 

Have any recent scientific polls been taken to gauge A) the likelihood of the charter amendment passing, and/or B) the chances of the streetcar project passing a referendum?

 

If this charter amendment passes, is there any way it could be struck down by the courts, or repealed by a subsequent charter amendment?

 

EDIT: Modified for peace purposes

I like how the CFP has dubbed the charter ammendment the "Anti-Progress" Ammendment.  That's good.

That's exactly what it is, and it ties the city's hands in far more ways than just the streetcar.