^thank you.

My two cents is that no developer would invest his money in OTR based solely on the supposition that the streetcar may happen.  Will it enhance his investment?  Yes, but the decision to invest of everything to date has nothing to do with the streetcar either happening or not happening.  Are the some speculators out there buying up properties along the route?  Sure, but these are likely not long term developers/owners, but speculators looking for a possible quick return.

 

I agree too that some areas further north have much more potential upside with the streetcar that does the bulk of OTR, but all the development to date has nothing to do with the streetcar.

As a homebuyer in the area, I would rather buy as close as I can to the CBD for accessibility reasons, not safety concerns. I would more likely buy deeper into OTR if the accessibility was made easier by streetcar line. Just my 2 cents.

I chose to rent a smaller place on 4th rather than a larger place at Liberty and Walnut  (similar prices) due to a lack of transportation options.  I didn't buy a condo on Mulberry (and it was a steal) due to a lack of transportation options.

That PDF crashed my computer! What does I/O error mean? Is anyone else having that problem?

Will it enhance his investment? Yes, but the decision to invest of everything to date has nothing to do with the streetcar either happening or not happening.

And if the argument were framed that way I would be its biggest supporter. Development is not dependent on the Streetcar but rather enhancement of development and protection in that investment. The rhetoric just isn't holding up to the reality and it makes the arguments for the streetcar relatively easy to pick apart.

I didn't buy a condo on Mulberry (and it was a steal) due to a lack of transportation options.

And I and many others including Chris Rose did buy on Mulberry (Chris and I have bought more than most) and transportation was not an issue. I will go a step further and say I remember a time when people weren't buying and hardly renting on 4th street or any street downtown and transportation wasn't the issue...what changed? And where did all of those people in the McAlpin find parking? By tearing down a building?

If the streetcar is built and as you say development wouldn't happen or the tear down of buildings would have to occur, are you saying people will give up their cars to move into the Brewery Dist because they can ride the Streetcar downtown and into Clifton? That to me seems like a bigger limit to transportation options than anything, but in reality they would never sell without parking anyway as it limits resale potential vs their competition at the time who does provide parking. And to the tune of what, 2290 units? And the commercial (I assume they are talking across the board comm, certainly not just retail) will not need parking either because everyone will park and ride?

I see your arguments as simply begging more questions. When a person who is unfamiliar with the area isn't convinced, and people who are extremely familiar and heavily vested aren't convinced, then I think you need a better, clearer argument that is based on simple, easy to understand facts that can point to todays realities, not just tomorrows studies. It can be done but I just don't see the willingness and it may already be too late.

A Hamilton County Commissioner has concerns about streetcar petition language

By Jay Hanselman

5/20/2009 1:25:48 PM

 

Opponents of a plan to build a streetcar system in Cincinnati formally launch a petition drive Thursday to stop the proposal. The WeDemandAVote.com coalition will be holding a press conference to announce the effort. The proposed charter amendment would prevent the city from spending any money on passenger rail transportation within the city without first taking the issue to voters. Hamilton County Commissioner Todd Portune says the language could cause problems for other transportation initiatives besides streetcars. He says the city would have to take any issue involving rail to voters before spending a penny of city money. Portune says if the measure makes the ballot and is approved it could prevent the city from participating in the Cleveland, Columbus, Dayton and Cincinnati high speed passenger rail service. He says the opponents should re-draft the petition language to deal specifically with streetcars. Opponents say the plan has widespread public opposition, the proposed route avoids vast sections of the city’s urban core and will serve a small population even though all city residents will pay for it.

 

http://www.wvxu.org/news/wvxunews_article.asp?ID=6438

In other words, the opponents should just draft a petition requiring any spending in the urban core to be voted on by those in the burbs.  This city is so f*cked.

In other words, the opponents should just draft a petition requiring any spending in the urban core to be voted on by those in the burbs. This city is so f*cked.

 

No, those in the "burbs" don't get to vote on Cincinnati Charter amendments.  Unless of course you consider Price Hill a "burb". 

Most any investment you're seeing in northwest OTR is already streetcar spurred.

Really?  Enlighten me. Who exactly?

 

  North of Liberty and west of Vine just doesn't get redeveloped, in my opinion, without streetcar service.  It's just not doable

It is statements like this that are infuriating to me.  You throw the Brewery Dist. under the proverbial bus to everyone in efforts to push your own cause.  The CityLink campaign did the same thing to the West End.  What do you tell developers when your project doesn't happen?  I have a bit more faith in all of OTR than you do, with or without a streetcar and am not willing to say that the viability is solely dependent on a streetcar.

 

This is not how you sell this thing.  When you have someone like me and many others here in OTR that want in the worst way to be for it but have to defend the areas inevitable viability from constant statements like this, you are making a mistake.

just that alot of it may not have happened in the first place if the Streetcar wasn't proposed.

Come on people, are you just here to fool yourselves or do you really expect others to believe this?  This just is not the case at all.  What development that is in place now was streetcar proposal driven?  The streetcar would not have even been entertained if it weren't for the development and if you would put it to the people that way, that the streetcar is a protection of your investment both in the CBD and OTR then perhaps you would get somewhere but that train may have already sailed.  To say that OTR's development is thanks to your proposal is just laughable and finds no basis in reality.  The frustrations here never stop..........

 

This city is going nowhere if they can't figure out how to revitalize OTR, I can't stress that enough.  In other words, Cincinnati may or may not be going places but either way, it's going to happen slowly.  Who's going to invest?  How will the transportation work?  Who's going to be pissed off in the process?  What lingering social and economic effects will this have on Cincinnati's poor and mentally ill?  Unfortunately, downtown is a haven for many of these people, and other areas might not be so willing to accept these people as part of society.

 

 

As a homebuyer in the area, I would rather buy as close as I can to the CBD for accessibility reasons, not safety concerns. I would more likely buy deeper into OTR if the accessibility was made easier by streetcar line. Just my 2 cents.

 

I agree.  I love the fact that I can get to work in 10 minutes without having to get into my car.  I love that I can walk to the butcher shop, bakery, restaurants without having to start my car and search for a parking spot.  A streetcar would make it easier to get around downtown while living further into OTR.

 

If the streetcar is built and as you say development wouldn't happen or the tear down of buildings would have to occur, are you saying people will give up their cars to move into the Brewery Dist because they can ride the Streetcar downtown and into Clifton? That to me seems like a bigger limit to transportation options than anything, but in reality they would never sell without parking anyway as it limits resale potential vs their competition at the time who does provide parking. And to the tune of what, 2290 units?

 

I don't think people will give up cars altogether, and I don't think that's the point of developing a streetcar system.  I see the streetcar as providing another transportation option.  However, some families may decide they only need one car instead of two. 

 

Right now, my husband and I only own one car.  We are lucky enough to both work in the CBD, so we walk to work.  If we lived further away from the CBD, it would be harder to own one car.  Now, if we lived further into OTR, and had the streetcar option, it would make it easier to continue with one car. 

I'd like to add my two cents into this conversation as well. As a member, and resident of the Brewery District, and a "part time" developer, myself and my business partner purchased our buildings on the corner of Findlay and Logan Street over two-and-a-half years ago. We've received no city assistance, and have done our best to renovate one of our buildings (which we are currently finishing up). We purchased these buildings not because of any street car proposal, but because of an enormous asset you guys seem to be over looking--FINDLAY MARKET. I wholeheartedly support the streetcar, but it is not the reason most of us have taken huge risks in our lives to be a part of this neighborhood--not me, Mike, Steve, Wirtz, any of us who have been down here for some time now. Thanks Michael for bringing up this point--the streetcar will be a tremendous help to our neighborhood, but PLEASE don't devalue the our reasons for investing in an already amazing neighborhood! You are playing into all the naysayers arguments that this is a streetcar to "nowhere". THIS ISN'T NOWHERE! The reason 3CDC succeeded and is succeeding is not only an amazing pot of public and private funds, but the sheer critical mass that these funds allowed them to achieve. I think it made sense for them to start where they did to cash into proximity to the CBD, but they could definitely have been successful up near the market. Developement like ours in the Brewery District are currently islands, and that is the problem, not that we don't have effective transit options.

Mr. Redmond,

 

I incorporated your suggestions this messaging:

 

The Cincinnati Streetcar is an effective use of City funds because it will support the investments the City has made and will continue to make in the urban core, connect our major attractions and the two largest employment centers that contain over half of the jobs in the entire City, stimulate new economic activity along the route, and enhance and accelerate existing development that is occurring in the center city.

 

Thoughts?

I completely agree with that message.  If you recognize the huge investments already made, leverage that and incorporate the streetcar as part of an already existing development plan then I believe to many people this will resonate.  To say if we build it, development will come is much less effective then saying development is here, we NEED to build it.  We have the Banks to point to, the Stadiums, Fountain Sq., the Quarter, and Findlay...leverage that success as they are undeniable unlike a "study" is.

 

You have an endless supply of success stories, there is no need to paint a gloom and doom scenerio.

David Pepper has joined Todd Portune's opposition to the anti-rail charter ammendment:

 

Commissioners Pepper, Portune oppose streetcar petition

Posted by jessicabrown at 5/21/2009 12:05 PM EDT on Cincinnati.com 

 

Hamilton County Commissioners David Pepper and Todd Portune this week attacked a proposed charter amendment aimed at blocking Cincinnati's plan to build a streetcar system in the city.

 

A coalition of organizations called We Demand A Vote is petitioning to get the charter amendment on the November ballot. The amendment would require voters' approval before public money is spent on the streetcar system or other passenger rail transportation.

 

The commissioners' take issue with the latter part of that amendment. It would slow needed regional rail projects, they said.

 

Read the proposed charter amendment here

Read an Enquirer account of the streetcar issue here

 

Pepper and Portune agreed that if the voters want to vote on streetcars, they have that right. But they think the petitions are "poorly drafted" and would "bottle up all kinds of countywide development and transportation enhancements," according to a news release.

 

Projects such as the Eastern Corridor Transportation project and the Ohio high-speed rail link from Cincinnati to Cleveland would "grind to a halt," according to the release.

 

"Its supporters say its just about streetcars but the language covers much more than that and will put the voters of Cincinnati in the middle of virtually every countywide development that has a transit element of any kind," Portune said in a news release.

Pepper noted that if the amendment is passed, the rail link would likely end at Sharonville instead of coming all the way to Cincinnati.

 

"The 3C and D connector will become the Cleveland to Sharonville connector if this thing passes," he said.

I guess since everyone is throwing two cents into the convo I will as well. I believe that a lot of people have invested into OTR because they see how important and significant it is to our city and the nation, but I also believe that the proposed streetcar is what is getting a lot of people to make smaller investments (buying condos). I'm not saying that my logic fits every situation, but i think that OTR is coming alive for many reasons and no one can tell how much of it can be contributed to the streetcar proposal.

 

My main point that I want to make is that things will continue to get better with or without the streetcar, but with the streetcar it will happen exponentially faster and much more successfully.

i think that OTR is coming alive for many reasons and no one can tell how much of it can be contributed to the streetcar proposal.

I just spoke to the sales team at the Quarter and they know exactly how many times the streetcar has been mentioned both by buyers and potential buyers.  It isn't what you think.

 

things will continue to get better with or without the streetcar, but with the streetcar it will happen exponentially faster and much more successfully.

no doubt whatsoever.

 

 

Streetcar Opponents Say They're Halfway To Ballot

Group Gathering Signatures For Ballot

 

http://www.wlwt.com/news/19526405/detail.html#

 

 

CINCINNATI -- Opponents of Cincinnati's proposed streetcar held a rally Thursday afternoon to announce results of a petition drive to put the plan on the November ballot.

 

The WeDemandAVote.com Coalition has been gathering signatures to place the issue on the ballot in a direct challenge to Mayor Mark Mallory and City Council plans to move forward with the project.

 

Chris Smitherman, president of the NAACP in Cincinnati, which has staunchly opposed the streetcar proposal, said 3,302 valid signatures had been gathered to place the issue on the ballot. The group needs 6,150 signatures by the Sept. 4 deadline in order for voters to make the final decision on streetcars.

 

Also Thursday, a Columbus-based conservative think tank filed a federal lawsuit accusing the city of harassing citizens who gathered signatures to place the measure on the ballot.

 

The Buckeye Institute claims that Cincinnati regularly threatens petitioners for causes that the city opposes, and the group and its allies seek a temporary restraining order that would prohibit the city and its employees from interfering with signature-gathering.

 

The streetcars would cost the city nearly $200 million, but city leaders hope to cover some of the cost through a combination of private investment and federal stimulus money.

 

Mallory met earlier this year with the Obama administration to convey the streetcar project as a priority for the city, in hopes of securing stimulus funds.

 

 

 

City Manager Milton Dohoney Discusses Street Cars 

 

 

So far, the city has not heard back on whether funding would be approved, but city leaders are hopeful that the project is in line with the Obama administration's goals.

 

"The federal government has indicated that they want an emphasis on infrastructure, on green and on transportation," said City Manager Milton Dohoney. "The streetcar fits all three of those categories."

 

News 5's John London questioned Dohoney about the streetcar proposal Wednesday and how the city can move forward with the project when it's facing a $40 million budget shortfall.

 

Dohoney said that any money for the streetcars would come from the city's capital budget.

 

"If it were a matter of making a choice that would jeopardize core city services, we wouldn't even be talking about this," said Dohoney.

 

If built, the proposed route for the streetcars would follow a loop that begins at the Freedom Center, travels north on Main Street and turns west onto 12th Street, and then travels north on Elm Street.

 

The route would follow McMicken Avenue to Race Street, before turning south onto Central Parkway and traveling down Walnut Street back to the riverfront.

Copyright 2009 by WLWT.com. All rights

Does anyone know if this ballot amendment will affect adding freight rail lines as well as public rail?  I am thinking Queensgate Terminal, or if a freight operator (like CSX) would want to add tracks in existing ROW.  Would this affect those projects?

No. The language explicitly for passenger rail improvements.

 

Be it resolved by the people of the City of Cincinnati that a new Article XVI of the Charter is hereby added as follows:

 

The City, and its various Boards and Commissions, may not spend any monies for right-of-way acquisition or construction of improvements for passenger rail transportation (e.g., a trolley or streetcar) within the city limits without first submitting the question of approval of such expenditure to a vote of the electorate of the City and receiving a majority affirmative vote for the same.

 

Insane. Presumably the city would need to hold a referendum if they even wanted to replace a light bulb at the Amtrak station. Does this mean the city would also need to hold a referendum before performing routine maintenance work on the Central Parkway subway tunnels? It's passenger rail-related, but those tunnels also hold up the street.

 

I hope the city is exploring ways to have this thing struck down in court before it even makes it onto the ballot, as it completely ties the city's hands in terms of making needed infrastructure improvements. Otherwise, maybe I'll work on getting enough signatures on a petition to amend the city charter so that the city is required by law to cut a billion-dollar check to every registered voter each year on December 25th. If enough people vote for it, it becomes law, right? That's the beauty of mob rule.

I'm sure you know what's best.

I'm sure I know better than a bunch of teabag-waving morons.

I've read your blog, I would put you in the same category.

No. The language explicitly for passenger rail improvements.

 

Be it resolved by the people of the City of Cincinnati that a new Article XVI of the Charter is hereby added as follows:

 

The City, and its various Boards and Commissions, may not spend any monies for right-of-way acquisition or construction of improvements for passenger rail transportation (e.g., a trolley or streetcar) within the city limits without first submitting the question of approval of such expenditure to a vote of the electorate of the City and receiving a majority affirmative vote for the same.

 

 

Gotcha.  So if Amtrak uses freight lines then they would not have to be put on the ballot if they wanted to improve or expand that as well?

The petition would block "passenger rail transportation (e.g., a trolley or streetcar)"

 

COAST claims that this only rules out streetcars, but allows for future light rail to be built.  But "e.g." just means "for example."  So, despite what they are claiming, there are other forms of "passenger rail transportation" to which this petition would apply.  Is it misleading (and/or illegal) for COAST to claim that this petition would NOT block future light rail when it actually would?

^ Right and that is my line of reasoning.  They are claiming only "trolley or streetcar" but in reality, Passenger rail includes a wide breadth of rail options.  Amtrak, Light Rail, High Speed Rail, Subway, 3-C and Eastern Corridor are all threatened by this ballot initiative. 

 

Also what is this about the Buckeye Institute suing the City?  With all the obfuscation COAST, NAACP and WeDemandAVote.com have been using to mislead people into signing this, shouldn't someone be suing them?

We need to get people to understand when they are saying "the $185 million dollar streetcar from downtown to OTR" that $185 million will also take you through uptown all the way to the zoo. So many people think that it is just the downtown circulator for $185 million.

We need to get people to understand when they are saying "the $185 million dollar streetcar from downtown to OTR" that $185 million will also take you through uptown all the way to the zoo. So many people think that it is just the downtown circulator for $185 million.

 

CityBeat is the only news organization I have seen that can figure it out.

I sincerely hope the City has plans to take the NAACP and COAST to court over this issue.  They are COMPLETELY misleading people into signing something much bigger than they are telling them. 

My sister-in-law was approached by one of these petition gatherers in Clifton the other day and she was simply asked "Would you like to sign the Trolley Petition?"  Luckily for her she knew from me that this was actually the petition that would alter the city's charter amendment and she kindly said no.  However, its easy to see how many people they could easily falsely lead into signing this even if in fact they are in support of the streetcar.  Or, they could simply get someone who's opposed to the streetcar to sign it when they could actually be against the charter amendment!

Even Channel 5 news is guilty in misleading people into believing its simply a campaign against the streetcar.  They never once mentioned what the Charter Amendment would actually be doing in the article they posted today.

Something has to be done to insure that people are at least fairly informed before signing this petition. 

I'm not a lawyer so I don't know how the city would need to go about building a case against this, but there has to be a way that this sort of unfair, misleading language could be used to shoot down the NAACP/COAST Charter Amendment.

Insane. Presumably the city would need to hold a referendum if they even wanted to replace a light bulb at the Amtrak station. Does this mean the city would also need to hold a referendum before performing routine maintenance work on the Central Parkway subway tunnels? It's passenger rail-related, but those tunnels also hold up the street.

 

I hope the city is exploring ways to have this thing struck down in court before it even makes it onto the ballot, as it completely ties the city's hands in terms of making needed infrastructure improvements. Otherwise, maybe I'll work on getting enough signatures on a petition to amend the city charter so that the city is required by law to cut a billion-dollar check to every registered voter each year on December 25th. If enough people vote for it, it becomes law, right? That's the beauty of mob rule.

 

I whole heartedly agree with you.

COAST has already filed a complaint that Waterworks funding is being used for maintenance and repairs of the subway tubes which could potentially be used for rail transit according to the City's subway study.

 

What happened to the study that council voted to fund last spring which would have looked at the streetcar alignments in Uptown?

 

It would be encouraging to see the City manager to update council on the status of the project instead of defending it to the media without a plan on how the project will be funded and implemented.

As a homebuyer in the area, I would rather buy as close as I can to the CBD for accessibility reasons, not safety concerns. I would more likely buy deeper into OTR if the accessibility was made easier by streetcar line. Just my 2 cents.

 

For what its worth I thought I would share my thoughts on this subject.  I agree with the above quote that as a homebuyer in the Gateway quarter area I also bought there because of centrality to not only the CBD, but also because of the prospect of a streetcar.  My wife and I were ecstatic when we heard the area was getting a streetcar because we knew what that meant for the future of the neighborhood and the city as a whole (walkable, sustainable, vibrant urban living).  If the streetcar goes in we already have several buildings in mind that we would be instantly interested in buying and rehabbing one for our home.  We wouldn't hesitate one minute about buying a building anywhere in the neighborhood if we knew a rail line was only blocks away.

I've also had countless numbers of friends from out of town, both former Cincinnati residents and not, who say they would move to Cincinnati in a heartbeat if the streetcar were built.  Over the Rhine as a whole is just begging for permanent, visable, public transportation like the streetcar, because that's what built the neighborhood in the first place!

 

Gotta love how one group of ignorant, bitter suburbanites can hold an entire city back in the dark ages. Maybe the city's first transit project should be to round up all these people and put them on a one-way trip to some fantasy world where there aren't any taxes and the government never spends any money. Somalia comes to mind.

If you bought your current home with the expectation of the streetcar, that was probably not very prudent.  If you are serious about buying more properties to rehab, then put your money where your mouth is and do it NOW!  You will probably be able to get them much cheaper than after a streetcar is in operation.

Right now, there are not enough residents in OTR, and certainly not enough patrons for businesses to spend $100 million on a loop through OTR.

 

Queens Boulevard, NYC at the time the Flushing subway was opened:

 

The same location later:

 

Thank you, enough said!  I fully believe OTR would become one the most desirable neighborhoods in the country after a short time with rail transit installed.

^ I note that the Provost of Cincinnati posted a new article using the same images and some additional ones. Great minds think alike.

If you bought your current home with the expectation of the streetcar, that was probably not very prudent.  If you are serious about buying more properties to rehab, then put your money where your mouth is and do it NOW!  You will probably be able to get them much cheaper than after a streetcar is in operation.

 

Well, unfortunately I currently can't afford to do that at the moment  I'm finishing up residency in 2 years so at that time I'll be able to put my money where my mouth is.  However, we felt that buying a home in OTR rather than out in another neighborhood was a way to show our support for a neighborhood we've felt strongly about for a long time.  The streetcar just made it that much more exciting.  Yet, without the streetcar, buying a building in some random part of OTR would be an unwise choice at this time because I believe the current redevelopment will depend very heavily on rail transit for its sustained success.  I'll be the first to admit that buying in OTR right now is risky, the neighborhood could go either way.  With a streetcar in place, its almost a gauranteed safe investment, and likely profitable one.

I'm willing to take a small risk at buying a condo in the neighborhood now, but I'm not willing to make a super large investement in the neighborhood unless I know its going to succeed (like it would with the streetcar).

OTR is over the hump, it will improve with or without the streetcar, but the streetcar is the #1 fastest way to revive it. Many buildings have been vacant for 20+ years and are deteriorating fast. We can't just wait for the streetcar to happen or not happen, get to work now! If you can't buy a building buy from shops you want to succeed in OTR. Every bit helps.

OTR is over the hump, it will improve with or without the streetcar, but the streetcar is the #1 fastest way to revive it. Many buildings have been vacant for 20+ years and are detiorating fast. We can't just wait for the streetcar to happen or not happen, get to work now! If you can't buy a building buy from shops in OTR. Every bit helps.

 

Point well taken, and I agree.  I've dramatically changed my lifestyle since moving back to Cincinnati with the purpose of trying to promote urban living.  I buy locally whenever possible (Findlay market for as many groceries as I can fit in my backpack on my bike, Coffee from Coffee Emporium, household supplies from Park and Vine, Breads and Pastries from Shadeau.)  I also ride my bike to work everyday from OTR to Clifton.  I want to do everything I can to make the neighborhood succeed and I agree that chances are the neighborhood will stabilize even without the streetcar given the current changing trends in the desire for more walkable, sustainable neighborhoods.  However, I don't believe it will be as successful to the same extent it would if the streetcars are built. 

Point well taken, and I agree.  I've dramatically changed my lifestyle since moving back to Cincinnati with the purpose of trying to promote urban living.  I buy locally whenever possible (Findlay market for as many groceries as I can fit in my backpack on my bike, Coffee from Coffee Emporium, household supplies from Park and Vine, Breads and Pastries from Shadeau.)  I also ride my bike to work everyday from OTR to Clifton.  I want to do everything I can to make the neighborhood succeed and I agree that chances are the neighborhood will stabilize even without the streetcar given the current changing trends in the desire for more walkable, sustainable neighborhoods.  However, I don't believe it will be as successful to the same extent it would if the streetcars are built. 

 

Holy crap, are you my twin brother? I have the exact same lifestyle except for the working in clifton part.  :-o  Keep up the good work!

Is there anything being done to notify the proper authorities of C.O.A.S.T. and the NAACP's misleading attempts to try and put this on the ballot? Shouldn't the attorney general's office be notified about this. Today Smitherman went on the radio talking about how "Hamilton County" must vote against this. I thought this was an amendment to the city charter and had nothing to do with the county.

 

Going over the language of this petition and initiative is it even likely that if it gets the right amount of signatures that it will actually go on the ballot and is anyone doing anything to combat this garbage?

 

I'm fed up and tired of the Jason Gloyd's, Chris Smitherman's and C.O.A.S.T. spokespeople going out there and misleading people into signing their petition. Something needs to be done.

They will get enough signatures.  Rather than discredit them, get your word out (other than here on UO) for support of the streetcar.

I've done that, on my website and on the radio, I just worry if it's enough. I could understand and be happy to listen to someone else's viewpoint for being against it, if their reasoning was legitimate. I could totally understand where Mr. Gloyd and C.O.A.S.T. were coming from if their points were valid and true, unfortunately they feel they have to lie.

This petition drive is disgusting. Absolutely, unequivocally disgusting. People know not what they're signing.  There's killing the streetcar, and then there's this petition. Roads can only be widened so far. There will always be traffic. There won't always be constantly wider roads. This amendment, if passed, will be devastating. I wish I still lived in the area. I'd fight this petition tooth and nail. I may be a traffic engineer, but even young traffic engineers aren't stupid. We know the future needs more than roads. The future will have more than roads. Everything possible needs to be done to let Cincinnatians be made aware that they are being misled, and in the process, screwed. The streetcar will be good for the city. Transit will be good for the city. Buses are buses, and unfortunately the bias with buses is very real. Argue all you want that buses and streetcars can attract the same riders and do the same workload, but, until you show me empirical data that proves this I won't believe it. Trust me, I've looked, and I sure haven't found it.

 

Speak out. Fight this issue. Rise up and ensure this petition fails. It needs to fail. It will fail, with your help.

Does anyone know the typical places where the C.O.A.S.T. petitioners hang out? It may be fun/interesting to just go stand next to them, that way we can properly warn any prospective signer.

My advice would be to bring a video camera and document any cases where the COAST goons are clearly lying or misrepresenting the intent of the petition, or targeting people who are clearly unable to think for themselves. Then put it on YouTube, and send the link to the attorney general, every elected official, and every blog and media outlet. It's one thing to read anonymous accusations on a web forum, but another to actually document fraud when it happens. At some point the Board of Elections should have a hearing regarding whether to put the measure on the ballot; be sure to show up and present any factual evidence you have.

I haven't seen a single petitioner... where are they? Can we get an official thread or sticky with this info?

They appear around 2am on the weekends at Mt. Lookout Square and Oakley Square to try and get the bar crowds to sign it. 

That cost-benefit econ dev impact study that was linked to a few posts upthread has info on anticpated riders, O&M costs, and capital costs. 

 

So one can do a real quick and dirty calculation to see what the fares might be depending on the amount of up front subsidy.  The assumption that a certain % of the initial capital investment would come as a subsidy of some form, some mix of grants or TIFs.  The balance would have to be paid back out of the fairbox.  Plus there is the O&M costs.

 

Assuming a 50% capital subsidy and 20 years to pay back the streetcars share, + 0% operating & maintenance subsidy here is a range of fairs based on the high/mid/low costs in the study.

 

1/2 Capital  $1,800,000.00 $2,000,000.00 $2,200,000.00

  O&M         $1,900,000.00 $2,200,000.00 $2,400,000.00

  Total   $3,700,000.00  $4,200,000.00    $4,600,000.00

 

Riders                      Fares (round up?)

/day /year

3100 1,131,500 $3.27 $3.71 $4.07 

4850 1,770,250 $2.09 $2.37 $2.60

6000 2,190,000 $1.69 $1.92 $2.10

 

Assuming a 2/3s capital susbisdy and 1/3 to be payed back out of the farebox over 20 years, O&M & riders remaining constant, leads to this fair range:

 

1/3 Capital  $1,200,000.00 $1,300,000.00 $1,400,000.00

  O&M           $1,900,000.00  $2,200,000.00  $2,400,000.00

  Total   $3,100,000.00  $3,500,000.00  $3,800,000.00

 

Riders Faires (round up)

/day /year  

3100 1,131,500 $2.74 $3.09 $3.36

4850 1,770,250 $1.75 $1.98 $2.15

6000 2,190,000 $1.42 $1.60 $1.74

 

The study does assume various %s in increase in ridership per year for various periods.  For the first six years the range is 6%, 8%, and 10% per year.  Seems a bit high? Maybe not if the neighborhood repopulates and beomes denser and more people use the streetcar for trips.  Fares would have to keep pace with O&M costs increasing with inflation, too.

 

Note that the fares can actually decrease with increases in ridership, yet perhaps bring in more money, enough to cover O&M increases, but also drawing in more riders if they are reduced over time.  This is the German experience as they have high ridership but mostly paid for out of the farebox (public subisidy is in the 20%-25% range).

 

But are the ridership numbers good?  The low range is higher than the highest bus run in Dayton, which has 2884 rider per day for weekdays.  But its not excessively higher and this is a more built up city, too.  So I think their "low" rideship number is in the ballpark.

 

So, yes, I'm convinced this can pay for itself if ridership targets can be met and there is some sort of substantial upfront susbidy of construction costs to keep payback from driving up fares.

 

On edit, the construction costs from the study where $71M, $78M, & $86.8M

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

For a bit more on the German experience read:

 

Making Transportation Relevant, Insites From Germany, from Brookings.  Fascinating stuff.  The Germans are able to afford to give deep discounts to frequent riders, yet still keep the public susidy low.  Which is what these numbers from that Cincy study impy, too.