We had the opportunity to use the HBLR over the weekend from the Tonnelle Avenue station in N. Bergen to the Hoboken Terminal so we could take PATH over to the Port Authority terminal in NYC. It was a pleasant ride and it took nearly as long to use as NJ Transit's #166 from Palisades Park, NJ to the terminal in NYC. I suspect that if/when it is extended north, it will become a very popular route.

^

 

Think river and city views maybe had something to do with it? The city's best park?

^Also the isolation.  It's a relatively small neighborhood, so it feels exclusive and you don't have to fend off the encroachment of blight.

Dave, there are two big differences between Mt. Adams and Over-the-Rhine.  First, Over-the-Rhine is many, many times larger. Mt. Adams only has 1,500 residents, so Over-the-Rhine at its peak had 25X more residents than Mt. Adams.  Second, Mt. Adams has largely been torn down and rebuilt, building by building, with historically inaccurate designs where a garage occupies the entire ground floor. 

 

 

 

Dave, there are two big differences between Mt. Adams and Over-the-Rhine. First, Over-the-Rhine is many, many times larger. Mt. Adams only has 1,500 residents, so Over-the-Rhine at its peak had 25X more residents than Mt. Adams. Second, Mt. Adams has largely been torn down and rebuilt, building by building, with historically inaccurate designs where a garage occupies the entire ground floor.

 

 

The bottom picture is usually a HUGE no-no for architects.  I have no problem adding a garage to the ground floor, if that's what the client wants (face it, 90% of the time they are going to want one), but the rule is usually not to imitate an older style, and especially not a style that's different than the rest of the house.  Yikes....

 

The top set of row houses I actually think are quite nice.  Even if there was a streetcar line in front of it, anyone who can afford a house like that is going to have a car and want a place to park it, especially if they don't have to drive it every day.  Style always a product of technology, which is why I hate to see imitation buildings.  I love to see infill like that top picture. 

Dave, there are two big differences between Mt. Adams and Over-the-Rhine.  First, Over-the-Rhine is many, many times larger. Mt. Adams only has 1,500 residents, so Over-the-Rhine at its peak had 25X more residents than Mt. Adams.  Second, Mt. Adams has largely been torn down and rebuilt, building by building, with historically inaccurate designs where a garage occupies the entire ground floor. 

 

I wouldn't say it's been largely torn down. The top of Mt Adams (as opposed to the hillside where your pictures come from) is mostly intact, though there does seem to be a trend toward tearing down some of the worst structures to erect super-expensive town homes.

 

Here might be one rejoinder to the notion that a streetcar is a necessity for OTR full Renaissance, Mt. Adams. A neighborhood that one could argue is even less car friendly that OTR was massively transformed in a livable urban area with very limited mass transit. I will note that I am aware that the disinvestment was never as dramatic though it was fully working class into the 60s.

 

Mt Adams gentrified itself b/c of it's hilltop location and single-family dwellings which made it easier to get in and do it yourself.  While OTR has infinitely better architecture, it's mostly in the form of multi-unit buildings which don't necessarily lend themselves to easy rehab by one person. We've gone over this ad nauseum on this board, but IMO, OTR can't fully realize it's past potential if we have to build 2 parking spots for each new condo that comes on board. This is where the streetcar comes in.

It is worth noting that we heading toward the 3rd generation of Mt. Adams transformation. There are articles about its renaissance from the mid-60s. It was grouped with places like Society Hill in Philly. I agree that there are a lot of good reasons why Mt. Adams was transformed that have little to do with transit, but it remains a highly dense urban environment with very narrow streets and they were able to make it happen in the most car-friendly era in American history. I'm not saying that Mt. Adams is anything like a trump card, but it is an example opponents might point to as an example of why the streetcar is superfluous to a renaissance in OTR.

 

Society Hill in Philly would be another example - it isn't on any of Philly's rail-based transit lines. The Market-Frankford subway is in walking distance but that's about it.

Quite possibly the best, most accurate article covering the streetcar project to date...

 

A Streetcar Named Perspire

http://cincymagazine.com/ME2/dirmod.asp?sid=2CE771F28E0D4281817E2E034A9C57C6&nm=Archive&type=Publishing&mod=Publications%3A%3AArticle&mid=61465020993F438B9FCD60C66CC58CDC&tier=4&id=57AF04D5D5BF47EB9A7C6CEAF0BE8FE2

 

Cincinnati ahead of the curve. It’s not a phrase we hear much. Our city has rightfully earned its conservative reputation, having mostly missed out on this decade’s skyrocketing real estate prices and the 1990s’ high-tech startup boom, but also dodging the worst of the busts that inevitably followed.

 

Careful spending in long-term investments has fostered growth, whether it’s Procter & Gamble continuously reinvigorating its billion-dollar brands, Children’s Hospital building on its sterling national reputation through expansion, or the public-private partnership that revitalized Fountain Square and lured new businesses around it.

 

Along Cincinnati’s slow and steady course, opportunities arise that test our comfort levels for change. Bringing streetcars back to our roads is one. Opponents of the proposed $180 million streetcar system that would link downtown, Over-the-Rhine and the uptown neighborhoods see the initiative as misguided. Fix the roads. Build a jail. And, if you insist, upgrade the bus system to pacify mass transit users. Investing in basic services gives the taxpayer more bang for the buck, they say.

^ WOW ... Who is this guy? Do any of you know him?

:clap:

A good article, but it is vague on how much is requested from the federal government in terms of stimulus monies and earmarks. That noted, funds from the stimulus wagon have, for the most part, not been distributed in southwest Ohio yet. I believe it depends on how much we receive from the barrel of cash, which then an appropriation will be requested by a senator. Shame we don't have Sen. Byrd (D-WV) :)

Here is an important bit to take from the article...

 

...the project has the enthusiastic support of Peter S. Strange, Messer Construction’s chairman and CEO and Cincinnati USA Regional Chamber board chairman. (Messer has pledged an undisclosed amount of money to the project for which it will receive public acknowledgement but no other direct return.)

Is Messer going to be in the running for construction?  I thought they generally just did architectural work, but I could see how pledging an undisclosed amount of money would help them get the job...

Is Messer going to be in the running for construction?  I thought they generally just did architectural work, but I could see how pledging an undisclosed amount of money would help them get the job...

 

That's called bribery....

 

But in the article it said:

 

(Messer has pledged an undisclosed amount of money to the project for which it will receive public acknowledgment but no other direct return.)

 

 

 

Or they might know something we don't about a potential construction project along the line.

Such a good article until Duane's portion. Once again, there are so many success stories that could be put out there but instead we have project failures that are the spokespeople here which gives the impression that development can only succeed with a streetcar. How many other mid sized projects has Duane ever done? He, as a developer made a choice on area, time, building, product type and simply did not have the ability to pull it together, streetcar or no. McMicken, tell me I am wrong. Did he make the investment and choices he did based on the knowledge of a proposed streetcar? Also, KD Lamp was just walked away from again and back up for sale, why would they abandon dev. plans if that is on the streetcar route?

Well, wasn't it part of the qualifications to come up with a portion of the funding?  They may have just decided to kick it in themselves, because they can afford to do so and still make a profit -- rather than sitting around with no work to do.  I don't know, just an idea.

 

When it was pointed out that some tax dollars sought for streetcar come from funds that can’t be used for roads and bridges, Gloyd says, “It all comes from the same pot, and that’s the taxpayer’s.”

 

 

Sounds like COAST has a firm grasp of taxes...

^

 

Messer is not involved with either of the teams that want to build the streetcar.

Gloyd is actually a robot. 

^

 

Messer is not involved with either of the teams that want to build the streetcar.

 

Yeah, Messer doesn't really do transportation infrastructure construction. They do, however, build buildings. A need for density is a need for construction. That said, kudos to Messer.

The Baptist Ministers Conference was one of the groups called out in Laure Quinlivan's documentary, Visions of Vine, for owning and maintaining blighted unkempt property in OTR.

Is that available somewhere?  I only caught half of it when it aired on WCET.

The Baptist Ministers Conference was one of the groups called out in Laure Quinlivan's documentary, Visions of Vine, for owning and maintaining blighted unkempt property in OTR.

 

I think that's getting to the heart of why people like Foster and Smitherman oppose the streetcar: They have a vested financial and political self-interest in maintaining the status quo in Cincinnati. As long as they have poverty-stricken neighborhoods to exploit for their own gain, they have power. If the streetcar gets built and the pace of redevelopment in OTR accelerates, the status quo gets broken and these people lose their power and financial base. They want Cincinnati to remain broken and dysfunctional because that's what's best for them.

I think that's getting to the heart of why people like Foster and Smitherman oppose the streetcar: They have a vested financial and political self-interest in maintaining the status quo in Cincinnati. As long as they have poverty-stricken neighborhoods to exploit for their own gain, they have power. If the streetcar gets built and the pace of redevelopment in OTR accelerates, the status quo gets broken and these people lose their power and financial base. They want Cincinnati to remain broken and dysfunctional because that's what's best for them.

 

That made my day.  Now the streetcar will get credit for ending poverty in Cincinnati along with redeveloping OTR!

Try reading for comprehension next time. Nobody said anything about the streetcar eliminating poverty. It will only eliminate the power base of a few OTR slumlords and political gadflies.

 

As long as they have poverty-stricken neighborhoods to exploit for their own gain, they have power. If the streetcar gets built and the pace of redevelopment in OTR accelerates, the status quo gets broken and these people lose their power and financial base. They want Cincinnati to remain broken and dysfunctional because that's what's best for them.

 

Well, I thought I read that very well, thank you.  You said they have power from poverty stricken neighborhoods.  Then you said if the streetcar gets built and redevelopment accelerates, they lose their power.  What part did I miss?

 

 

Where in my quote did I say the streetcar would eliminate poverty in Cincinnati?

 

When it was pointed out that some tax dollars sought for streetcar come from funds that can’t be used for roads and bridges, Gloyd says, “It all comes from the same pot, and that’s the taxpayer’s.”

 

 

Sounds like COAST has a firm grasp of taxes...

 

And laws.

 

As long as they have poverty-stricken neighborhoods to exploit for their own gain, they have power. If the streetcar gets built and the pace of redevelopment in OTR accelerates, the status quo gets broken and these people lose their power and financial base.  They want Cincinnati to remain broken and dysfunctional because that's what's best for them.

 

Well, I thought I read that very well, thank you.  You said they have power from poverty stricken neighborhoods.  Then you said if the streetcar gets built and redevelopment accelerates, they lose their power.  What part did I miss?

 

So he's saying that it will start to reduce the poverty rate in OTR.  I don't think he's saying that any one project will totally eliminate it...

http://www.railwayage.com//content/view/889/121/

 

Tucson, Ariz., orders streetcars from Oregon Iron Works

Friday, May 29, 2009

 

Tucson, Ariz. Wednesday became the second U.S. city awardinga contract to United Streetcar LLC, a subsidiary of Clackamas, Ore.-based Oregon Iron Works, Inc.

 

Tucson’s $26 million order, for seven streetcars, follows an earlier order by Portland, Ore., for six streetcars, which itself followed United Streetcar’s production of a prototype car now being tested in Portland.

 

Cars built by United Streetcar are similar in design to those of Plzen, Czech Republic-based Skoda Transportation a.s., under a technology transfer agreement signed by the two companies in 2006.

We're playing second fiddle to Tucson now?

Streetcar *ahem* passenger rail petition guy is out from of arbys downtown (6th and Vine).  I tried to convince people not to sign it.  He is preying on the people near the bus stop.  I was trying to make the "Obama is pro passenger rail" argument to these people because most of them are pretty die hard obama fans...

 

if anyone has time on lunch hour, look for the guy with knee high white socks and a mullet.

Has there been discussion of a counter-petition drive? Perhaps one that requires a public vote prior to the expenditure of city funds for the expansion of any mode of transportation that produces carbon emissions within the city.

 

The justification is that Cincinnati/Hamilton County is an EPA air quality non-attainment area.

...the guy with knee high white socks and a mullet.

 

He should be arrested for contributing to visual blight in downtown.

^ :D :D YES!

 

I think that it is time that streetcar (and light rail) supporters become more vocal.

Or perhaps another clever counter petition could be developed, such as one that required a public vote before city funds could be spent on transportation infrastructure that excluded its safe and reasonable use anyone based on financial or physical ability.

 

Thus if a road project that didn't include a bike path, transit facilities or failed to meet ADA specs would have to be subject to a public vote.

 

Maybe something along those lines? Just musing out loud....

I'm thinking about starting a petition to amend the city's charter such that the City of Cincinnati must cut a check for one million dollars to each legal resident of the city each year on December 25th. I could probably get enough signatures on the petition to make it on the ballot, and it might even pass in the election. The city would then be legally obligated to pay each resident $1M per year, right? Who could possibly be opposed to that? That's the beauty of mob rule via referendum. Just look at how well it works in California.

The only counter argument we need is pointing out to people that it's a terrible idea to have the entire city vote on minor issues.  We elect officials to make those decisions.  If you don't like the decisions, change the officials, not the system.

 

It's probably going to get onto the ballot, but I doubt it will pass.  Enough people in the city voted to elect a council that supports the streetcar, what makes any of you think they'll vote for a charter amendment that would make it impossible??

 

I have no problem letting major issues go to referendum, it's just counter productive and increases the size of an already overbearing government when every minor issue needs a public vote.

The only counter argument we need is pointing out to people that it's a terrible idea to have the entire city vote on minor issues. We elect officials to make those decisions. If you don't like the decisions, change the officials, not the system.

 

It's probably going to get onto the ballot, but I doubt it will pass. Enough people in the city voted to elect a council that supports the streetcar, what makes any of you think they'll vote for a charter amendment that would make it impossible??

 

I have no problem letting major issues go to referendum, it's just counter productive and increases the size of an already overbearing government when every minor issue needs a public vote.

 

I agree. Perhaps that message could be put into a handout flier with bullet points that are quickly read, and the flier distributed at the same locations where the petition signature collectors are at, or were at?

 

But I wouldn't assume that, just because people voted for a mostly pro-streetcar city council, it means those same people will vote against the referendum. People can be swayed by all sorts of things, including messages, circumstances, times, etc.

The only counter argument we need is pointing out to people that it's a terrible idea to have the entire city vote on minor issues. We elect officials to make those decisions. If you don't like the decisions, change the officials, not the system.

 

I think it's also important to point out that the ballot language will make it tough for any type of passenger rail in Cincinnati, including possible light rail or Amtrak.

I do not have a mullet!!

Careful: Streetcar Petitions Can Be Deceptive

http://www.citybeat.com/cincinnati/article-17917-careful-streetcar-petitions-can-be-deceptive.html

 

It’s certainly true that good people can come to different conclusions and disagree on an issue. Sometimes, however, good people are led astray by those with ulterior motives.

 

For more than a year, an unusual coalition of arch-conservatives, civil rights groups, Libertarians, Green Party members and others have joined together to mount several petition drives that have made the ballot and let voters decide on issues that otherwise would have been made by elected officials.

The Economist: California: The Ungovernable State

 

A cautionary tale about the pitfalls of direct democracy, which sounds good in theory but is anything but democratic in practice. Cincinnati, take heed.

“We believe the NAACP was mistaken to think opposing the streetcar was only possible by petitioning against all forms of passenger rail transit,” the Beacon wrote. “This could have been either an oversight by the NAACP, or an anti-transit political maneuver. Either way, we acknowledge the petition drive has the right intent, but the wrong language and we hereby call on all interested parties to act now.”

 

Aha! So, the Beacon and the Boyband are out! Hopefully more and more people will catch on to what this petition is really about--and it's dangers. Does anyone know what the implications of changing the wording are? In other words, if Smitherman tries to make the petition more palatable to people who support light rail, would that nullify all the signatures they've collected?

Enough people in the city voted to elect a council that supports the streetcar, what makes any of you think they'll vote for a charter amendment that would make it impossible??

 

Unfortunately Ram, I don't think that council was voted in based on its pro-streetcar position. Most folks in the city don't CURRENTLY understand how the streetcar will benefit them. They see it as more government subsity being thrown at the inner city. This is why I think it is really important that Cincinnatians for Progress not only are really vocal in saying why the streetcar is beneficial, but also reaching out to all the community councils and neighborhood groups. We've got to tell them this is not being funded by a tax levied on you, this is going to increase tax revenue for the city--which can be used on your neighborhood projects, this will decrease crime by putting more people back into these areas, and hell, one day you might actually get a streetcar line into your neighborhood!! If this message is not communicated to people outside of Downtown, OTR, Clifton, the referendum stands a good chance of passing, IMO.

 

Where in my quote did I say the streetcar would eliminate poverty in Cincinnati?

 

Little known fact: 45% of the ridership of the Downtown/OTR streetcar loop is projected to be persons earning less that $20,000 per year. It's in the city's study.

 

It will certainly save a lot of money for low-income families in the area served, many of whom spend a quarter to a third of their disposable incomes on local transportation.

 

    Just wondering,

 

    There are 80,000 jobs downtown. How many of them pay less than $20,000 per year?

probably a significant amount, given the amount of people needed to work the restaurants for the lunch crowd, etc. 

The group that went to Portland this weekend heard a lot about the opportuny dividend -- that's what I'm calling it -- promoted by streetcars.

 

Here's the consensus: bringing many more people to an area, even if some of them don't spend a lot, just by those persons taking care of their life's needs in their own neighborhoods and often within walking distance results in a lot more aggregate spending. And some of that spending gets capitalized in increased property investments. Jobs rise as the buildings are built and as companies and residents occupy them and buy other goods and services.

 

Don't think for a second that what's happening in Portland isn't real. Sure, it's over-built and under-employed right now, but Portland will power-out of this recession a lot sooner than Cincinnati will.

 

The quality of the new buildings, starting at the airport and evident throughout the city, the mass of people walking the sidewalks, on the streetcars, and at events, was amazing.

 

They are building a great city there.