Good discussion, but probably best reserved for a Cincinnati crime thread. Get back on the rails.

Again, the gas tax discussion is a good one, but we already have threads for that. The discussion was moved to:

 

http://www.urbanohio.com/forum2/index.php/topic,14971.msg403713.html#msg403713

>In my 18 years in Loveland before i moved here, I never once knew someone who was mugged because they were walking down the street to late at night.

 

Is there actually somewhere worth walking to in Loveland? And isn't there a teen curfew?

 

 

 

Next time you're on the bike trail, make a stop in Loveland.  I lived in old Loveland and walked/biked everywhere there.  It's Symmes and Miami Townships that are sprawl, the actual city is a nice place.

 

Anyways, my point was that we should keep support for the streetcar constructive, and not turn it into a car vs mass transit debate.  Most of that argument is opinionated.  If anything we should raise the point that with a streetcar you'd have the choice to drive or take mass transit, that's a benefit we would have over places like Boston or NYC, where people can't actually afford to have a car and don't have a choice about how they get around.

^ Agreed. I live in NYC and take the subway everyday, but sometimes I still wish I hadn't sold my car when I moved here. If I had a cheap place to park it, I probably wouldn't have. If/when I move back to Cincy, I look forward to having a car again as well as being able to ride the streetcar. As I've said before, the whole point of the streetcar is to provide more transportation choices, not limit them.

 

In other news, Nate Livingston is claiming that the anti-rail petition was never properly filed with the city, and is threatening a lawsuit to block it.

 

Mr. Livingston may or may not be in favor of the streetcar, but he certainly has no love for Smitherman.

In other news, Nate Livingston is claiming that the anti-rail petition was never properly filed with the city, and is threatening a lawsuit to block it.

 

If true, that's a card I would have played much later in the game.  Unless of course, it's already too late for them to file it properly.

In other news, Nate Livingston is claiming that the anti-rail petition was never properly filed with the city, and is threatening a lawsuit to block it.

 

If true, that's a card I would have played much later in the game.  Unless of course, it's already too late for them to file it properly.

 

I imagine it would be too late. If they had to refile the proper way, any signatures gather up to this point would be invalid.

Any validity to this?

 

 

Brent Spence vs. Streetcar

http://coast-usa.blogspot.com/2009/06/brent-spence-vs-streetcar.html

 

Streetcar proponents are often furious that highway projects don't generate the same public hostility that mass transit projects do. Highways are used by cars, buses, trucks, motorcycles, taxis, fire engines and campers. Routes and schedules are at the sole discretion of the traveller. Everybody uses and everybody pays, making our paved network the most universally democratic means of transportation ever invented.

 

Everybody pays for mass transit too, but it's used by only a small number of people going to a small number of places on somebody else's schedule. When asked to justify such a lopsided arrangement, "expert studies" are cited trying to convince people who can never use it that they should still pay for it.

 

So how will streetcar enthusiasts react to this recent study which shows that Brent Spence Bridge replacement delivers lower per-trip costs and two and a half times the return on investent as their beloved streetcar boondoggle?

 

(See article for chart comparing cost, daily usage, and "benefit:cost" ratio of both projects.)

This isn't an "either/or" argument. They both are going to happen.

 

I love the picture they use on their blog though!

I'd look, but I don't want to give their website the traffic.

 

Wait, no old fashioned trolley? Where is the plume of dirty smog coming from the coooooaalllll fired choo-choo train?

"the bridge project would produce an $18.9 billion benefit to commuters, shippers and manufacturers"

 

How much of the benefit would be for the shippers and manufactures who just happen to be shipping goods through Cincinnati?  How much of the benefit will actually be for businesses and residents within the city?

 

Is there data that shows how many vehicles on the current BSB are local traffic vs. long-haul commuters and trucks?  Because, if so, I would like to adjust those calculations to show how much of that "benefit" actually benefits the tri-state.

^

I thought the same thing when I read the enquirer article yesterday

Why are they even comparing the Brent Spence replacement to the Streetcar proposal?  The projects aren't clamoring for the same funds and I've never heard streetcar proponents arguing that the bridge replacement should or should not happen.  The two seem entirely unrelated to me.

I think it's somewhat in response to my conversation with Miller about the highway fund bailout, and how roads aren't held to the same standard as rail.  (And obviously in response to this new study as well.)

And I'm sure they're including all the costs resulting from the added highway capacity.... NOT.

That COAST blog basically outed them as fake small govt activists.

 

The highway system is one of the most overtly Socialist programs in America. Not to mention the government's biggest single domestic expense this side of an entitlement program.

 

Here is COAST's supposed mission statement:

 

COAST exists to limit the rate of taxes and spending at the federal, state, and local level to within the rate of inflation and to stop the abuse of power by government officials.

 

I don't know how the hell they expect to limit taxes and spending if one of their leaders is absolutely GUSHING about how he LOVES the government's massive spending on an ill-fated Socialist highway experiment gone wrong.

The Brent Spence project will likely require a substantial amount of state/local funding to make it happen.  Just as the Louisville Bridges and I-69 in Indiana have done it raises the question of priority among local leaders on how best to allowcate a finite amount of funds.  While the funding streams for I-75 and the Streetcar are distinct at the federal level they have by an large common political oppornity costs as do other competing local projects and programs.  Both project will take a political and financial commitment to make them happen which I don't think is quite there at this point. Each should be viewed on its own merits.

We need both a new bridge and a streetcar.  If anything, we should point out to COAST exactly what the difference in the costs of the two projects are.  In terms of a major infrastructure investment, the streetcar is cheap.  I consider myself a supporter of small government, but infrastructure is one of the few things the government needs to provide.  Roads and highways shouldn't be the only infrastructure. 

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/06/14/realestate/14sqft.html?_r=2

Unfortunately, Nate Livingston speculates that streetcars might be unsafe because of the bad Washington Metro accident yesterday:

 

http://blackcincinnati.blogspot.com/

^anyone have the numbers of person miles traveled per fatality of Washington Metro (or transit in general) vs. I-66, the Beltway, etc.?

Four people have been killed in a variety of incidents (two or three of them drivers) on the DC subway since it began operation in 1976.  It now has a weekday ridership of over 700,000.  That's an incredible safety record.     

 

I have no idea what happened today.  It was daytime, the weather was pleasant, and so on.

^

 

On average, there are about twenty fatalities involving electric light rail each year in the United States. About half of them are suicides, and many of the rest occur on one high-speed light rail line in LA, usually after midnight, often with alcohol involved.

 

Your chances of getting killed on or by a light rail train in a given year are approximately equal to your chances of being killed by a bee or while snow-skiing.

 

I've never heard of a fatality involving one of the nation's three modern streetcar systems.

Highway Fatalities 1990-2006:  714,354

Light Rail Fatalities 1990-2006:      189

 

Data: http://www.bts.gov/publications/national_transportation_statistics/#appendix_e

Unfortunately, Nate Livingston speculates that streetcars might be unsafe because of the bad Washington Metro accident yesterday:

 

http://blackcincinnati.blogspot.com/

 

"The Cincinnati Black Blog can never support a transit system where Black people get on but they dont get off ... alive that is."

 

So, no buses, no cars, ... no leaving your bloody house!  Oops, what about those household accidents.  What an idiot.

 

 

Local blogger denounces rail as too dangerous

Authored by Sherman Cahal on June 23, 2009 at UrbanUp

 

The paranoid fear over rail transportation has begun, now that nine individuals were killed and dozens injured in a Washington D.C. Metro accident. The accident, involving two Metro trains that were operating over 50 MPH between two stops, was the second such incident in the 30 years of Metro's history. According to Nathaniel Livingston, a surmised lawyer that operates Cincinnati Black Blog, he infers that the Cincinnati Streetcar proposal could be potentially unsafe because of the Metro incident.

 

The Cincinnati Black Blog can never support a transit system where Black people get on but they dont get off ... alive that is.

 

Nathaniel, I had respect for your generally well regarded and thought-out blog posts until today. How can you be fearful of a streetcar system that has never had a recorded fatality? Or for a rail network that produces only a handful of deaths a year? For the sake of discussion, let's compare automobile deaths versus that of an airline or automobile.

 

Nathaniel, I had respect for your generally well regarded and thought-out blog posts until today. How can you be fearful of a streetcar system that has never had a recorded fatality? Or for a rail network that produces only a handful of deaths a year? For the sake of discussion, let's compare automobile deaths versus that of an airline or automobile.

 

According to the Bureau of Transportation Statistics, there were 22,707 rural automobile fatalities and 17,467 urban automobile fatalities for 2007. For passenger railroads, there were a mere 4 passenger fatalities for 2007. Let's now jump over to mass transit and compare the fatality rates. Lumping in all transit rail that includes light rail, heavy rail and commuter rail, there were only 125 fatalities, 33 of which occured at grade crossings. Fatalities that occured at grade crossings all but involved trains hitting automobiles and trucks stuck or stopped at grade crossings.

 

Let us now look at the raw data differently and compare it on an equal scale. The following transit data has been taken from the American Public Transportation Association and the National Transit Database of the Federal Transit Administration for 2003, and were averaged. For 2003, fatality rates per 100 million passenger miles for automobiles is .89, commuter rail is .03, rapid transit (rail) is .47, light rail is .23 and bus is .07.

 

We also cannot ignore the fact that there were 714,354 automobile fatalities between 1990 and 2006, versus 189 light rail fatalities.

 

Urban public transit modes are thereby much safer than automobiles. In addition, Nathaniel, there have been no recorded deaths on a modern-day streetcar.

 

Can we cut the hysteria and focus on the facts, rather than what you read and poorly surmised from various news articles? What you "think" you read doesn't translate into facts.

 

Relevant links can be found in the article, click on the link above.

Here is the Washington Metro route map superimposed over Cincinnati:

 

Now the whole system superimposed over the metro area:

^Well wouldn't that be nice to have?  It almost perfectly fits what we need.

No Joke!  I'm jealous!

Sadly, the federal gov't is located in Greater Cincinnati to hand out the largesse of the Great Society. But that really would be an excellent system for Cincinnati.

Here is the Washington Metro route map superimposed over Cincinnati:

 

 

I'm having fun superimposing the DC neighborhoods (and their feel) on their respective Cincinnati locations.  Downtown Alexandria, Va. just doesn't seem to fit with I-275 & Madison Pike!  But for the most part Cincy doesn't seem as spread out as I would have thought.

 

And I always felt I was heading more South then West on the Orange Line in Va.

Another horrible Enquirer article

 

----------------------------------------------

 

Streetcar faces uphill battle

By Barry M. Horstman • [email protected] • June 23, 2009

 

Worsening budget woes at Cincinnati City Hall and Metro will make the already difficult task of selling the public on a $185 million streetcar plan even more challenging, supporters admit.

 

Although they agree with streetcar backers on little else, opponents concur on that point.

 

"It's ridiculous that we're even talking about a project like this at a time like this," said local NAACP president Christopher Smitherman, who is leading the opposition to the streetcar plan. "It just shows how financially illiterate City Council is."

Sometimes I think our entire state is too scared to compete with the world.

With the Metro about to be hit hard by the drop in tax support, I do think the operating money portion of this plan needs to be at the forefront. The capital expense can be stretched out into never never land, but the daily cash can't and it has to come from somewhere. I wish I could say that trying a new Metromoves with the initial streetcar, fixing Metro, improvements for 3C and Chicago intercity, plus a funding source for light rail to the NE, E, and W would be better than hanging this on the city's general fund at the moment.

Sometimes I think our entire state is too scared to compete with the world.

 

I think our state desperately wants it to be 1964 and will keep acting like it's 1964 until a) everyone leaves or b) it is 1964 again.

It seems like it's never the right time to do anything progressive around here. I mean, by the time construction even begins on this damn streetcar the recession will likely be on the way out.  The operational money could be paid for by the development that goes in around it, although a lot of that development will be spurred by tax deferrals as well as the streetcar.  There will still be a net positive for the City in the end.

 

Progress is bad, apparently.

It's always easier to find reasons to not do something.  It takes courage...especially political courage... to forge ahead with a good project and make it work.  The streetcar, light rail and the 3-C project are all good projects with benefits that will develop and grow as these systems go operational.

 

But if the naysayers drive political leaders to back away and run, shame on them.  If we who support these projects allow such a retreat, then shame on us.  Eyes on the prize everyone!

 

If the City loses this thing (and I don't believe they will) they should just develop a bus system a la Curitiba, Brazil.  The only difference between that system and a street car is rubber tires and diesel versus rail and electricity (which is still an argument for the streetcar in my opinion).

On Lincoln Ware's radio show this morning, the chairman of the anti-progress ballot drive, Tom Luken, called-in to talk about the streetcar. God, I hope they put this clown up early and often to debate this ... but I digress.

 

Anyway, Luken speculated that the Cincinnati Streetcar "will not transport people." In addition, letters to the editor of The Enquirer have suggested that there would be a much bigger payoff investing the money in Metro instead.

 

So I searched for the data and want to make a few comparisons. I don't want to pick on Metro. I'm a daily rider, and I promote the system whenever I can. But the comparisons are really too compelling to ignore.

 

There are three modern streetcar systems operating in the United States today. One of them runs in a Dayton-sized city -- Tacoma, another in what could be called a "world city" -- Seattle, and another in a Cincinnati-sized city -- Portland.

 

I looked up the respective riderships on these systems and accounted for the number of track-miles embedded in each operation. I found that they are moving, on average, 1,100 passengers per track-mile per day. The oldest modern streetcar system, Portland's, is moving 1,500 passengers per track-mile per day, while the newest system, Seattle, only moves a little over 500 people per track-mile per day. Tacoma is in the middle of the pack with a little over 1,200 passengers per track-mile per day.

 

OK, so we have a pretty good data-set comprised of systems of varying lengths and ages in cities of different sizes that together average 1,100 modern streetcar passengers per track-mile per day.

 

So what's the comparable number for Cincinnati's Metro bus system?

 

Metro has 69 bus routes listed on its web site. For the purpose of illustration, I'm going to assume that these routes average ten miles each from end-to-end. Or, if you count both directions of travel ("track-miles" in streetcar lingo), assume each Metro route covers 20 "street-miles" -- both directions of travel, end-to-end.

 

The ten-mile assumption is probably conservative because Metro has routes into three adjoining counties, but ten miles is a good round number that no one would argue with.

 

So Metro's 69 routes cover 690 miles end-to-end or 1,380 street-miles total in both directions.

 

Metro's ridership is now moving through about 80,000 passengers per day. So it's carrying 80,000 passengers per day over the 1,380 street-miles of bidirectional travel in its system, or about 58 passengers per street-mile of its daily operations.

 

So ... modern streetcars in the three cities where they operate move 1,100 people per track-mile per day, while our Metro system moves ... what? ... about 1/19th of that amount of travel per street-mile each day.

 

Here's another way to look at it. If the 1,100 per track-mile average holds for Cincinnati, we'd expect ridership on the initial six-mile starter route to Uptown and back to reach at least 6,600 passengers per day within a few years.

 

So the Cincinnati Streetcar will be carrying 8% of Metro's daily ridership on a single route that represents less than one-half of 1% of the total miles in Metro's system. So much for the idea no one will use it.

 

Next time someone makes a claim that the Cincinnati Streetcar is some kind of toy and that the money would be better spent on buses, feel free to point out that a typical bus route in Cincinnati is patronized by a tiny fraction of the number of people who will use the streetcar.

 

 

 

 

I agree with the need for this, but I'm also convinced that this recession is likely only in its second act or so and we probably will be in this environment for four or five more years, which fiscal situations will only be getting progressively worse over the next couple budget environments. To me, this means the revenue to support the system needs to be better than good.

Needing 6,150 signatures of local registered voters by a deadline in early August, petition circulators already are closing in on that mark -- and may have passed it, some believe, after gaining hundreds of signatures at last weekend's Civil Rights Game events at Great American Ball Park and throughout Downtown.

 

Is there any way that we can get a copy of this petition as soon as it is turned in?  If they were collecting signatures at the Civil Rights Game, there is a strong possibility that many of those signatures were from people who don't even live in the region.  I'm assuming that all 6,500 signatures need to be Cincinnati residents, so if they come in just barely over the mark, it might be worth checking residency/legitimacy of signatures.

when I was aksed  to sign the petition, I was first asked if I live in the City.  I don't know if they always ask this or not. 

They asked me that too. It's possible that people misunderstood that they were asking if they were registered within the city and not in the region.

^ Yes, a lot of people have Cincinnati addresses, yet live in a township -- even people in Clermont County. A friend of mine's parents are like that.

I'll never understand why Eastgate's address is Cincinnati, OH.

Yea thats weird.  Typically, they give township residents the city that is closest to them.  So if you live in Delhi or Green or Anderson, you'll probably get a Cincinnati mailing address.  Not sure why Eastgate would get a Cincinnati one as well.  Maybe Milford or Batavia is too small to handle the mail excess. 

 

So ... modern streetcars in the three cities where they operate move 1,100 people per track-mile per day, while our Metro system moves ... what? ... about 1/19th of that amount of travel per street-mile each day.

 

Here's another way to look at it. If the 1,100 per track-mile average holds for Cincinnati, we'd expect ridership on the initial six-mile starter route to Uptown and back to reach at least 6,600 passengers per day within a few years.

 

So the Cincinnati Streetcar will be carrying 8% of Metro's daily ridership on a single route that represents less than one-half of 1% of the total miles in Metro's system. So much for the idea no one will use it.

 

Next time someone makes a claim that the Cincinnati Streetcar is some kind of toy and that the money would be better spent on buses, feel free to point out that a typical bus route in Cincinnati is patronized by a tiny fraction of the number of people who will use the streetcar.

 

 

Good data as always, John.

COAST will be at the Hyde Park blast with the anti-transit petition. If anyone were interested in catching COAST mislead people with their petition - this would probably be a good time. Bring your video cameras ;)

 

Please join Trolley Petition signature blast this Saturday

   

COAST needs you to join us for the 2009 Signature Blast this Saturday, June 27. 

 

Yes, Saturday from 7:30 AM to midnight, Hyde Park Square is hosting the Hyde Park Blast with foot races, bicycle races, the Taste of Hyde Park and an evening Beer fest with the Rusty Griswolds.  Also, throughout the City are other events this weekend, including West Fest, Paddle Fest and even Panegyri Greek Festival.

 

So, COAST will anchor its own party from the parking lot at 2623 Erie Avenue.  We figured, why not? 

 

At 7:30 AM we will gather to organize the strategy for Saturday's events.  Then, at 11:00 AM, we will have beer, snacks, and Subway sandwiches for all COASTers.  The official soundtrack for the Trolley Petition Signature Blast will be provided by none other than the great Stephen Dapper.

 

At 7:30 PM, the COAST party starts again, with beer and snacks in the 2623 Erie parking lot, and petitioning at the Hyde Park Blast beer party.

 

During the day, as we have sufficient volunteers, we will send teams to West Fest, Paddle Fest and Panegyri. 

 

Can you spare, one, two or three hours to stop the wasteful $185 million Trolley plan from our delusional City Council?  Read about the debate here. Even if you can't help, at least stop by for a beer and to meet fellow COASTers.

 

We might even have a surprise guest or two.

 

All COASTers are invited to stop by for beer, wine, snacks and fellowship throughout the day Saturday.  And if you can circulate a petition for a while for a great cause, it would be appreciated. 

 

Call COAST Chairman Jason Gloyd (240-4996) if you plan on coming to this important event.