Is COAST comprised entirely of angry-looking middle-aged white men? Yikes.

 

I know the Beacon Boys retracted their support of the charter amendment, but I'm not sure if they officially speak for the local Green Party or not.

Broadly speaking, I think the Southernization of the GOP is a big contributor to its current anti-transit mindset (which is beyond stupid even though I'm a died-in-the-wool right winger). The South never really had to pay for the infrastructure - they didn't build much pre-Civil War, they built minimal pre-New Deal, and then federal gov't poured a lot of money into the south to finally give them a modern system. Also, the GOP's suburban mindset pushes it further along, even though Obama kicked their butts in the 'burbs and they have been losing them for a decade+.

 

 

Jeffre seems to still support the petition.  Haap no longer does.

^

 

I've never been able to square the current Republican opposition to rail with Republicans' historical leadership on infrastructure issues. Recall:

 

* Lincoln and the transcontinental railroads

* Teddy Roosevelt and the Panama Canal

* Herbert Hoover and western dams

* Eisenhower and the Interstate Highway System

* Reagan and the modernization of our nation's airports

 

Somehow, most of the current crop of Republicans never got the memo.

 

The party has morphed a lot from what it used to be. It is based now on anger and fear instead of conservativism. You put any issue in front of a modern Republican that has to do with restricting consumption (density, transit, carbon caps) and you'll surely mistake him for a greedy "Democrat"...or a 9 year old child.

 

The transit issue in Cincy has always been about preserving the region's white, pastoral communities form the black, urban city. Coast is just a front for that, always has been.

LK, if you want passenger rail in Cincinnati, or even if you don't but believe that these go/no-go transportation project decisions belong to the representatives you elect, then you want to ask voters to vote AGAINST this measure.

 

I thought I my statement was clear, but I guess it wasn't.  What I was saying was:

1) Given the anti-streetcar language is on the ballot, and given the suggestion to get Biden involved,

2) no federal politician will do anything about this.  This sinks or swims based on local people.  What one can take from Obama/Biden is the successful example that direct voter contact makes.  People need to be convinced this is important.  People need to be told that this project doesn't effect the operating deficit.  People need to realize how this charter amendment hobbles the city in so many ways.  So get off Facebook and the blogs, and organize citizens who care to talk to their fellow citizens.  Because ultimately this is about making people's lives better, and if they don't think this will improve their lives, and you/we didn't do anything to try and convince them, didn't actively engage them as people, as individuals, as human beings with legitimate concerns, then I guess we never really thought it was as important as we said.

I think he was just referring to the following sentence:

 

A bunch of parties and happy hours aren't going to get this thing passed, voter contact will.

 

since it reads like we want the amendment to "pass", when we really want it to fail.  I'm pretty sure he agrees with your sentiment in general.

Okay.

I'm normally quiet, but I just want someone to answer this question. Why is COAST even allowed to call this the "Anti-Streetcar Petition"? To me that is willfully misleading the public and constitutes fraud. But I'm no lawyer.

^Unfortunately COAST can call it anything they like.  It's our local media that lets the label stick.  That's why we have to keep writing them to get them to set the record straight.

I think he was just referring to the following sentence:

 

A bunch of parties and happy hours aren't going to get this thing passed, voter contact will.

 

since it reads like we want the amendment to "pass", when we really want it to fail. I'm pretty sure he agrees with your sentiment in general.

 

Pree-cisely!

Going back to the photos above - seriously....there is clear evidence of misleading the public.  It clearly says "streetcar petition".  I wish there was something we could do about this. 

 

The opposition has been far more far-reaching and loud than the pro-streetcar/transit crowd.  Honestly, preaching to the choir on this board or in CFP rallies does nothing to get the word out.

Is COAST comprised entirely of angry-looking middle-aged white men? Yikes.

paunchy angry-looking middle-aged white men

 

I know the Beacon Boys retracted their support of the charter amendment, but I'm not sure if they officially speak for the local Green Party or not.

^The best thing anyone on this blog could get from Obama/Biden is the example from their presidential campaign. Volunteer with Cinccinnatians for Progress and target voters, go to their doors, and talk to them about how important this issue is for Cincinnati. A bunch of parties and happy hours aren't going to get this thing passed, voter contact will.

LK is right

It has been fairly well documented that people tend to not pay attention to opposing poingts of view in the media. The message needs to be taken to the public.

$15.  Men's and Women's Cuts.  Printed on 3 ring spun cotton.

 

Available 7/11/09 Findlay Market 

Available 7/13/09 at Mustard Seed and Park + Vine

Available other locations TBD

 

I should pick one up next time I'm there. People here will be like"Huh? When did Cincinnati get a streetcar!?"

^Will they be available anywhere online for us geographically displaced Cincinnatians? Or should i have a buddy pick on up?

T-Shirts were going fast and furious today at Findlay. Saw people wearing them and carrying them.

Glad to see that COAST is keeping it classy.  From their blog:

 

The other side apparently got themselves some spiffy new tee-shirts.

Can’t help but notice a rather odd resemblance though…

 

  Oh dear.

In terms of logic and credibility, it's pretty consistent with all their other anti-streetcar arguments to date.

I fully support the streecar, but I must admit that I have some concern about passing through OTR, even though much development is going on. Can someone put my mind at ease? Thanks!

I fully support the streecar, but I must admit that I have some concern about passing through OTR, even though much development is going on. Can someone put my mind at ease? Thanks!

 

If anecdotal evidence means anything to you then you'll be reassured by those that are down there most often that they will say the neighborhood does not pose any significant threat.  I've walked all throughout the neighborhood at both night and day, and I have never had an issue.  I know jmecklenborg bikes through the neighborhood at all hours of the day and also will speak to this.  The same goes for many others on here and those that live, work, shop and visit the neighborhood regularly.

^ To add to that, walking and biking through OTR is one thing, riding on a streetcar is another.  Most crimes committed in OTR are committed there because it is easy for criminals to take advantage of the fact that there are few people around.  More people and more development will push this crime out of the neighborhood completely.

 

Criminals aren't going to stand around and wait for the streetcar to come by so they can shoot at it.  They're going to move a few blocks away to somewhere that hasn't been developed yet.  As development spreads out from the streetcar lines, criminals will disperse their activities.

 

The streetcar isn't going to reduce crime, but it is going to destabilize it.  Criminals don't want to get caught, and committing a crime along a well traveled corridor increases that chance tenfold.

Thanks for all of your answers...I still wonder about the drunk or drug addict getting on the streetcar; but I suppose this could be a possibility on bus lines at any stop!

I'd worry more about the drunk or drug addict behind the wheel in the car next to you on the expressway.

Any idea what the hell this is:

http://coast-usa.blogspot.com/2009/07/senator-kearney-65-of-city-voters-are.html

 

I don't see anything here in this post showing the poll results or anyone quoted on leaking them... also, what's with the twitter thing?

I got to ride Charlotte's system this weekend.  We took a round trip to the end of the line and back and I was able to snap a few crappy cell phone pics.  I didn't see one single addict or person that felt threatening.  The amount of construction in and around the line is absolutely insane and off the charts.  They also had a bonus trolley for all you guys that have been talking about it.  I was extremely impressed and hope the people of Cincy actually realize that this could be bigger than anything that the city has embarked on in the past 50-60 years.

 

Thanks for all of your answers...I still wonder about the drunk or drug addict getting on the streetcar; but I suppose this could be a possibility on bus lines at any stop!

 

That is a problem with any mass transit, really.  I'm living in NYC and routinely find myself on the subway at 4 am with unsavory fellows all the time.  It's never been a real issue, ie I've never felt threatened at all.  Although, now that I think about it I guess I am probably the drunk that would be scaring you away, but that's beside the point.

Any idea what the hell this is:

http://coast-usa.blogspot.com/2009/07/senator-kearney-65-of-city-voters-are.html

 

I don't see anything here in this post showing the poll results or anyone quoted on leaking them... also, what's with the twitter thing?

Not sure if this is accurate or not, but to me 65% against the streetcar a few months ago does not sound that bad to me.  I think as people are getting more educated about what is actually proposed, then the numbers will improve.  Also, I would think at least 15% would vote against the ammendment just because of it's over-broad implications for all passenger rail.

Those are some pretty good pictures for a cell phone cam!

 

  That Challote vehicle is labeled "trolley" but it really has a pantograph. They should have called it the "Charlote Pantograph."  :-D

Any idea what the hell this is:

http://coast-usa.blogspot.com/2009/07/senator-kearney-65-of-city-voters-are.html

 

I don't see anything here in this post showing the poll results or anyone quoted on leaking them... also, what's with the twitter thing?

 

I'd take it with a huge grain of salt until it's been confirmed by some other source. Given that COAST is run by pathological liars, I wouldn't believe anything written on their blog even if it said the sky is blue.

 

If it's true, then it just highlights the need to defeat this stupid charter amendment. Civic leaders need to show real leadership once in a while, rather than just reacting to the latest poll numbers. If every infrastructure project was subject to a citywide vote, would anything ever get built? What percentage of city voters would be in favor of re-paving some random side street in Lower Price Hill? Most would probably think their own street deserves higher priority... Until the construction actually starts, that is, and then they'll complain about the dirt and noise. That's the problem with turning the city's infrastructure decisions into a popularity contest.

 

Let's say Cincinnati finally gets serious about building a real regional rail system, be it light rail or subway. In reality, it would probably take at least 20 years for the entire system to be built and operational. For example, the construction of the Washington Metro was first approved by voters in 1966 after many years of planning and controversy, and the entire 103-mile system wasn't completed until 2001.

 

How many politicians came and went during that time, and how far did the project's overall popularity ebb and flow with changes in the overall political climate and the economy during that time? How popular was Metro while streets and highways around the city were being ripped apart during its construction? Does that mean all construction should cease and the project should be abandoned the minute it starts polling below 50%? That's no way for a city to build its infrastructure.

 

Unfortunately, that sort of reactionary, short-term thinking seems all too common nowadays. Politicians make decisions based on short-term polling numbers rather than what's best over the long-term, and companies make major decisions based on how it will impact their share prices this quarter, rather than how it will impact the company's long-term viability. That sort of thinking at the national level over the past couple decades is what has gotten us so far up sh!t creek to begin with. The last thing we need is more of the same in Cincinnati.

From chatting with a pretty wide diversity of folks, the general sense has been negative - far more about the specific plan for the streetcar than for rail in general. Most folks don't understand the circulator aspect of the plan instead of the point to point transit light rail and the like provide.

COAST was kind enough to link to one of my articles on their daily joke newsletter, I mean their blog:

http://coast-usa.blogspot.com/2009/07/luken-enquirer-shine-spotlight-on.html

 

Click "Cincinnati's Other Abandoned Subway" and see what comes up.

COAST was kind enough to link to one of my articles on their daily joke newsletter, I mean their blog:

http://coast-usa.blogspot.com/2009/07/luken-enquirer-shine-spotlight-on.html

 

Click "Cincinnati's Other Abandoned Subway" and see what comes up.

 

Yeah, unfortunately your great photojournalism work will be used by anti-rail interest groups and those that hate the city in general for many years to come.

Yeah, they changed the link to a cahced image of the site, instead of as it appears now. COAST doesn't like it much when someone points out the truth about them.

to help settle otr fears i take classes at the art institute and also live nearby, just dont do anything dumb and ur straight

From chatting with a pretty wide diversity of folks, the general sense has been negative - far more about the specific plan for the streetcar than for rail in general. Most folks don't understand the circulator aspect of the plan instead of the point to point transit light rail and the like provide.

I've had similar discussions with relatives, friends and neighbors.  Most people have never ridden this kind of system, so initially they are extremely skeptical.  Generally they have been to cities that have subways or separated grade rail, and think speed is everything. They have lived their whole life driving everywhere and cannot really imagine ever using this. Making the case for a circulator is difficult, though the fact that the first phase was changed to include Clifton does help diffuse this type of thinking. 

Does anyone know what the development is like along the subway lines in Pittsburgh and the light rail lines up in Buffalo? I was in Pittsburgh over the weekend. I still can't understand how that city moves with the very small highways it has. Maybe they have 1000's of buses moving around the city.

Ridershp #'s:

 

Cincinnati 2.1 million metro population

Cincinnati bus: 65,000 Metro; 15,000 TANK

Cincinnati rail: 0

 

Pittsburgh metro population 2.4 million

Pittsburgh bus: 210,000

Pittsburgh rail: 25,000 (one 20 mile suburban-oriented light rail line with short downtown subway)

 

Buffalo metro population: 1.2 million

Buffalo bus: 70,000

Buffalo light rail: 22,000 (one 6 mile line, 5 miles in urban subway)

 

Portland metro population: 2.1 million

Portland bus: 200,000

Portland light rail: 109,000 (44 miles light rail, no subway, one 3-mile tunnel through hills)

Portland streetcar: 10,000 (4 miles)

 

 

So, Cincinnati, Pittsburgh, and Portland have roughly the same population.  Pittsburgh has double and Portland has triple the transit ridership.  Buffalo has roughly the same transit ridership with half the population, largely helped by its single rail line, which with 21,000 daily riders attracts triple our busiest bus lines.

 

What's incredible is that Portland's 4-mile streetcar attracts significantly more ridership than any Cincinnati bus line.  The #43 and #17 buses are much longer (10+ mile) routes and travel through more densely populated areas, yet attract roughly 7,000 daily riders. Portland's humble streetcar attracts significantly more riders per-mile, yet Tom Luken calls it a toy.   

 

 

 

Great stats, Meck. Please share them far and wide. If you don't mind, I will share them on All Aboard Ohio's e-mail lists.

 

EDIT: Thought you all might be interested in this....

 

http://www.railwayage.com//content/view/1012/121/

 

July 14, 2009

Nonprofit group unveils streetcar routes for LA 

 

Conceptual route alternatives for a streetcar operation in downtown Los Angeles have been released by Los Angeles Streetcar, Inc. (LASI), a nonprofit group charged with giving the City of Angels a streetcar by 2014. The routes all serve three distinct areas.

 

"Part of the logic behind defining this Core ServiceArea was to transport people to/from areas they want to get to today, like the LA Live/Staples/Convention area and Bunker Hill/Civic Center, but also route them through the locations they might not have known about or seen previously, like a Broadway corridor or Pico Blvd," said Executive Director Dennis Allen.

 

"This is all part of the two-pronged approach that streetcar systems need to take, as a local circulator and transportation solution, and as one of the best economic development tools to surface in recent times," Allen said.

 

The plan utilizes north and south tracks running on separate streets for some portions of the route(s), and “mini routes” such as a South Park loop.

 

LASI will hold a community open house at the Bradbury Building on July 29 for public input.

Portland's rail ridership will jump later this year when the green line opens.  The tracks have been in place for months. 

 

The real key to proving the Portland streetcar's value as serious transportation is that high per-mile ridership, which is much higher than any Cincinnati bus line, despite Portland being less dense, even with all the recent development.  Remember, downtown Portland does NOT have a convention center, sports arena, casino, major shopping mall (does have a Nordstrom & Sak's 5th Ave.), or as many major business headquarters.     

Those are some pretty good pictures for a cell phone cam!

 

Hehe, believe it or not it's only a 3.2mp on a Blackberry Storm!

Cincinnati needs light rail first. Once that is in place the streetcar ridership will explode. I could settle for either or both. ;)

Quim at Blogging Isn't Cool has has an excellent post about COAST and Smitherman's motives in floating all these pointless ballot initiatives. He correctly notes that COAST is ostensibly opposed to government spending and that the NAACP is ostensibly in favor of African-Americans having a better quality of life, but that the anti-rail charter amendment will needlessly cost the city government millions of dollars and decrease transit options for African-Americans. So what gives?

 

The money quote:

It would appear that the major goal of these people is to be obstructionist. Their tactics are not much different than the revolutionary who maintains a steady stream of mischief & vandalism that occupies the local constabulary while the rebel forces gather just outside the town. A 5th column, if you will. [...]

 

Over and over these groups are not acting consistently, logically nor in their publicly known constituents best interest.

Looking at the more public members of these organizations one could easily conclude that these people are merely unelectable, bitter and disgruntled wannabes. They seem to have an attitude similar to the street gangs that would prefer to keep their neighborhood in a state of squalor rather than let it be improved by someone who might diminish their authority. Is their goal to turn Cincinnati into a Port-au-Prince? A Mogadishu? Is their goal to destabilize the city so they can somehow take over? Wasn't this Charles Manson's plan?

 

The boldface text above (my emphasis) hits the nail on the head. As long as Cincinnati continues limping along as a failing, dysfunctional city, COAST and Smitherman have a power base that they can exploit. If Cincinnati grows and flourishes, then these groups lose their reason to exist. They want the city to fail because they can then point at that failure and say "Ha! We told you so!". They're like the abusive spouse who repeatedly tells you that you're nothing without them, while doing everything they can to keep you trapped in the relationship. The sooner the city breaks free and kicks these manipulative abusers to the curb, the sooner it can really flourish.

Could streetcars be manufactured right here in the Midwest?

http://www.urbancincy.com/2009/07/could-streetcars-be-manufactured-right.html

 

On July 1 the United States celebrated the completion of the first American-made streetcar. Secretary of Transportation Ray LaHood was in Portland to celebrate the moment.

 

The Infrastructurist points out that Oregon Iron Works felt like they could be profitable producing the modern streetcars, and feel that they are already producing a superior product than what is being produced overseas. CincyStreetcar says that this event illustrates two important issues.

 

“The first is that public transportation is not a partisan issue; both sides of the aisle benefit from increased public transportation. The second is the progress other cities around the country are making with increasing their transportation options and the positive returns on their investments.”

 

When examining this news one could also speculate on what this could mean for Cincinnati as it develops one of the first streetcar systems in the Midwest region of the United States.

 

Last month when the City announced the selection of the development team that will help finance, plan, design, construct, operate and maintain Cincinnati’s modern streetcar system they also announced that Cincinnati Streetcar Development Team partner, Stacy and Witbeck Inc., will be opening a new office in downtown Cincinnati and will also be relocating their executives to Cincinnati specifically for this project.

 

Could the same also happen in regards to the production of streetcar vehicles in a state and region that was built on manufacturing and could easily produce streetcars with the existing infrastructure and talent in place here?

 

Columbus and Cleveland have recently examined streetcar systems for their cities. Milwaukee recently received tens of millions of federal dollars to build a three-mile modern streetcar system in their city that is being seen as a started line to a much larger, city-wide system (similar to Cincinnati’s effort). St. Louis and Minneapolis currently boast light rail that has vehicles similar to streetcars and could potentially be produced on the same line. Indianapolis is working on a light rail system there that would also fit into this category.

 

With all of these existing and future systems in the Midwest, it would seem reasonable to have a manufacturer for those vehicles right here. Could Cincinnati or Ohio attract such a firm, or grow one of their own so that it starts producing streetcar and light rail vehicles in one of the many plants we have that used to produce automobiles?

 

First American-made streetcar in Portland, Oregon - image from United Streetcar, LLC

If you want to locate a streetcar manufacturing facitliy the empty GM Moraine Assembly should be high on the list.

 

 

Cincinnati 2.1 million metro population

Cincinnati bus: 65,000 Metro; 15,000 TANK

Cincinnati rail: 0

 

Pittsburgh metro population 2.4 million

Pittsburgh bus: 210,000

Pittsburgh rail: 25,000 (one 20 mile suburban-oriented light rail line with short downtown subway)

 

Buffalo metro population: 1.2 million

Buffalo bus: 70,000

Buffalo light rail: 22,000 (one 6 mile line, 5 miles in urban subway)

 

Portland metro population: 2.1 million

Portland bus: 200,000

Portland light rail: 109,000 (44 miles light rail, no subway, one 3-mile tunnel through hills)

Portland streetcar: 10,000 (4 miles)

 

 

So, Cincinnati, Pittsburgh, and Portland have roughly the same population.  Pittsburgh has double and Portland has triple the transit ridership.  Buffalo has roughly the same transit ridership with half the population, largely helped by its single rail line, which with 21,000 daily riders attracts triple our busiest bus lines.

 

What's incredible is that Portland's 4-mile streetcar attracts significantly more ridership than any Cincinnati bus line.  The #43 and #17 buses are much longer (10+ mile) routes and travel through more densely populated areas, yet attract roughly 7,000 daily riders. Portland's humble streetcar attracts significantly more riders per-mile, yet Tom Luken calls it a toy. 

 

Whats really incredible is the use of the Buffalo LR line, since that city is sometimes characterized as a small Detroit.

 

But there has to be some issues around Cincys relatively low use of bus transit compared to Pittsburgh and Portand.

 

 

 

The issue is that Cincinnati has no rail system for the buses to connect to. Build a rail system, and bus ridership will increase.

 

Just like when Portland opens their new Green Line, ridership throughout their entire system will see an increase, not just the Green Line.

 

Here's some more data about those 4 cities. I think this data pertains to the city municipal boundary, not the metro area.

 

Portland Estimated per capita income in 2007: $28,305

Cincinnati Estimated per capita income in 2007: $23,960

Pittsburgh Estimated per capita income in 2007: $23,309

Buffalo Estimated per capita income in 2007: $19,474

source: www.city-data.com