July 21, 200915 yr No matter the cost, the opponents will claim it is too expensive No matter the route, the opponents will claim it doesn't go anywhere No matter the experiences in other cities, the opponents will claim it won't spur development Very true. However, that doesn't mean that the streetcar - as proposed right now - isn't too expensive. I get the unfortunate feeling that for some on this forum, the mantra "no matter the cost, it's not too expensive" applies to their opinions of all publicly funded projects. I just hope that this obstinacy doesn't play into the hands of people like COAST, who are having unfortunate success attacking an otherwise great idea that has gone way overboard on cost.
July 22, 200915 yr So... some say it'll be too crowded, and others say no one will ride it. Who is right? They can't both be right. Do the opponents even care, or are they just throwing out illogical arguments to try to stall the project?
July 22, 200915 yr Yeah, I can hardly wait!! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vyq9MMcLsv4 Just like Seinfeld, DanB's posts are "about nothing."
July 22, 200915 yr Mallory fiddles while Cincinnati burns!!! http://nky.cincinnati.com/article/AB/20090720/NEWS0108/907210309/1001/NEWS/Budget+won+t+stop+Mallory+trip Budget won't stop Mallory trip By Jane Prendergast • [email protected] • July 20, 2009 Cincinnati Mayor Mark Mallory leads a group of people Thursday on a trip to Portland, where he hopes to sell them on the positives of streetcars. Late Monday, the mayor's office released the names of those going on the trip.
July 22, 200915 yr DanB, actually a subway system is not currently being proposed for Cincinnati. A modern light rail streetcar is. Perhaps you should familiarize yourself with the proposal.
July 22, 200915 yr http://nky.cincinnati.com/article/AB/20090720/NEWS0108/907210309/1001/NEWS/Budget+won+t+stop+Mallory+trip A pretty good article that explores all sides of the issue without really putting bias on one end. I'd say this is the most balanced article on the streetcar yet.
July 22, 200915 yr I just saw a "Chris Smitherman sucks balls!" sign at the entrance ramp to 71 N from E Mcmillan. :lol: I didn't have my camera for a pic
July 22, 200915 yr I did see a sign today at Central Parkway and the Western Hills Viaduct: TROLLY(sp) = JOBS
July 22, 200915 yr Did you see whose names were not on that list? Mark Miller Chris Smitherman (who still claims to know what a modern streetcar is, yet calls it a coal-fired choo-choo train) Anyone from COAST
July 22, 200915 yr I think you are sharper than that gordon. you know what I mean. With all due respect, that's bullshit. The Mayor doesn't run the City, the manager does. While one can criticize the Mayor's performance, certainly traveling to have a first hand experience about major new investment can not be a legitimate cause for criticism. One should be applauded for doing that. Also, this "on the City dime" nonsense is absurd. The City lost way more on the Convergys deal that was negotiated when Leslie Ghiz was at the Solicitor's office than from any foreign or out of town travel by the Mayor. I'd post a video clip of from Office Space of the characters sitting in traffic if I cared enough to find it and to learn how to do that sort of thing.
July 22, 200915 yr The gas tax is heavily embedded in everything that moves in this country. Everyone pays it directly or indirectly. Very true. You also pay the gas tax if you mow your lawn, ride an ATV or snowmobile, run your Weedwhacker, use a snowblower, power your generator, etc. All of that money (about $44 million just in state fuel taxes per year and more than $1 billion in federal fuel taxes) goes to pay for highways. Source is the USDOT Bureau of Transportation Statistics. However the OP stated they live in Downtown Cincy, so they probably do not use any of the above items---Maybe the snowmobile ;-) True that the gas tax trickles down everywhere, but that argument can be made for all taxes. IMHO the vast majority of the gas tax is paid at the pump by the end user 3% of gasoline usage is non highway (2007) http://www.bts.gov/publications/national_transportation_statistics/html/table_04_07.html
July 22, 200915 yr While things are as bad as they are, he and his assistant have no business spending money to travel to Portland to ride their streetcar. They should at least pretend they feel badly for all the people who are about to be laid off. I bet they aren't traveling coach.
July 22, 200915 yr DanB, the city's finances are in trouble because of people like you who think more police officers = less crime. The police force is now overstaffed because of the 2001 riot. In fact I wouldn't doubt the FOP pays people to stir up fear in order to pressure the city into hiring more officers.
July 22, 200915 yr While things are as bad as they are, he and his assistant have no business spending money to travel to Portland to ride their streetcar. They should at least pretend they feel badly for all the people who are about to be laid off. I bet they aren't traveling coach. The whole point of the streetcar is to entice more people to live in Cincinnati, either from outside of the region or from the suburbs. Either way, more citizens = more tax money. More tax money = less strain on the budget. If city officials are correct (which all of the studies indicate that they are), then this trip could be viewed as a wise investment; a stepping stone to actually resolving city budget issues.
July 22, 200915 yr Can an administrator change the name of this thread from "Cincinnati Streetcar News" to "Never Ending Arguments About Streetcars Between People Whose Opinions Aren't Going To Change and Rare (Very Rare) Information About The Cincinnati Streetcar" It might clarify the thread's topics to those coming to the site
July 22, 200915 yr While things are as bad as they are, he and his assistant have no business spending money to travel to Portland to ride their streetcar. They should at least pretend they feel badly for all the people who are about to be laid off. I bet they aren't traveling coach. From the article you linked to earlier: He emphasized during last week's announcement of city layoffs that his trips are not being taken at taxpayer expense
July 22, 200915 yr Can an administrator change the name of this thread from "Cincinnati Streetcar News" to "Never Ending Arguments About Streetcars Between People Whose Opinions Aren't Going To Change and Rare (Very Rare) Information About The Cincinnati Streetcar" It might clarify the thread's topics to those coming to the site LOL!
July 22, 200915 yr While things are as bad as they are, he and his assistant have no business spending money to travel to Portland to ride their streetcar. They should at least pretend they feel badly for all the people who are about to be laid off. I bet they aren't traveling coach. Scheduling roughly one month out and assuming he's staying at a 4 star hotel, flight and lodging will run him about $600. I would've assumed that Portland is a fairly inexpensive city to visit. Looks like all of the 4 star hotels are using their location in regards to the streetcar line as a selling point to lure travelers... Interesting.
July 22, 200915 yr While things are as bad as they are, he and his assistant have no business spending money to travel to Portland to ride their streetcar. They should at least pretend they feel badly for all the people who are about to be laid off. I bet they aren't traveling coach. From the article you linked to earlier: He emphasized during last week's announcement of city layoffs that his trips are not being taken at taxpayer expense Read it again Gordon, he was speaking about his other trips around the world, not the Portland trip. This trip is clearly on the books. How convenient of you to miss that. DanB, the city's finances are in trouble because of people like you who think more police officers = less crime. The police force is now overstaffed because of the 2001 riot. In fact I wouldn't doubt the FOP pays people to stir up fear in order to pressure the city into hiring more officers. Yes, people like me. You do think you know everything about me, don't you? You'll be the first to complain when someone knocks you off your bike. Funny how you think everyone is getting paid to bother you! IF I collect from the FOP also, would you consider that double dipping?
July 22, 200915 yr While things are as bad as they are, he and his assistant have no business spending money to travel to Portland to ride their streetcar. They should at least pretend they feel badly for all the people who are about to be laid off. I bet they aren't traveling coach. From the article you linked to earlier: He emphasized during last week's announcement of city layoffs that his trips are not being taken at taxpayer expense Read it again Gordon, he was speaking about his other trips around the world, not the Portland trip. This trip is clearly on the books. How convenient of you to miss that. Oh, it clearly is? I wasn't aware the article clearly stated that considering it ended with the sentence I highlighted and doesn't say who's paying for the trip.
July 22, 200915 yr 3% of gasoline usage is non highway (2007) http://www.bts.gov/publications/national_transportation_statistics/html/table_04_07.html It was 1 percent lower a decade earlier. As driving has decreased in recent years, nonhighway fuel consumption has either not fallen as fast or even trended upward. And nonhighway fuel use doesn't include recreational vehicles according to: http://www.ustreas.gov/offices/tax-policy/library/tofuel.pdf Recreational vehicles contribute another one-third of a percent of total fuel taxes -- that's about $4 million per year in Ohio, or $100 million nationwide. "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
July 22, 200915 yr Hey folks, how about some news!! OK, it's from Atlanta, but..... http://www.railwayage.com/breaking-news/atlanta-seeks-stimulus-funds-for-streetcar-plan.html July 22, 2009 Atlanta seeks stimulus funds for streetcar plan Atlanta’s on-again, off-again plans for a Peachtree Street streetcar line appear to be on again, as the City Council, in an 11-3 vote, approved a motion to apply for federal stimulus funds to build part of the line. Two supportive groups, the Central Atlanta Progress and the Midtown Alliance, have agreed to contribute up to $300,000 to study the proposal to run streetcar lines along Peachtree Street from the city’s downtown to Midtown and from the King Center to Centennial Olympic Park. The two groups, joined by the city and MARTA, plan to apply for up to $300 million in stimulus money to finance the project's capital costs. Supporters plan to file for the funds prior to a Sept. 15 application deadline. _________________________ Cincy made some news at the same source.... http://www.railwayage.com/breaking-news/cincinnati-streetcar-backers-to-view-portland-model.html July 22, 2009 Cincinnati streetcar backers to view Portland model Just as Portland, Ore.’s MAX light rail operations attracted focus groups from interested U.S. cities beginning in the 1990s, so, too, does the Rose City’s streetcar operation draw interest in the best tradition of “show and tell.” Cincinnati Mayor Mark Mallory is the latest to use Portland as a model for local officials not yet convinced of the potential benefits of a Cincinnati streetcar line. Mallory said a tour of Portland’s operations remains on the agenda despite Cincinnati’s looming $28 million budget deficit, which could grow to $40 million next year. The mayor and allies hope to reinforce proponents’ plans for a $128 million starter line, using public and private funding sources. Opponents of the plan seek a ballot initiative mandating voter approval this fall for any streetcar plan or other rail options. Costs of the trip for the mayor and one aide will be paid through a fund established in 2006 as part of a settlement with Duke Energy over its merger with Cinergy. Duke deposited the $750,000 into the Business and Jobs Attraction Account. Others who plan to travel to Portland will have to cover their own expenses. "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
July 22, 200915 yr Another local citizens group is chiming in with their opinion on the streetcar spending and their opposition to COAST: http://caast-usa.blogspot.com/
July 22, 200915 yr Another negative streetcar story (with survey so you should vote!) from WLWT. They too are making it seem like the streetcar is on the ballot instead of everything passenger rail related: Mallory Forges Ahead With Streetcar Plan Mayor Examines Portland System; Polls Shows Most Against Project Eric Flack Reporter http://www.wlwt.com/money/20136532/detail.html# POSTED: 9:15 pm EDT July 21, 2009 UPDATED: 2:17 pm EDT July 22, 2009 CINCINNATI -- Mayor Mark Mallory is set to embark on a trip to Oregon in his ongoing effort to bring a streetcar system to the Queen City. Mallory will be in Portland on Wednesday to get a firsthand look at their streetcar system and the development that took place because of it. “All truly great thoughts are conceived while walking.” -Friedrich Nietzsche
July 22, 200915 yr Who the hell is the MTA? News 5 might have a little more credibility if they at least bothered to get the name of Cincinnati's transit agency right. (I tried to leave a comment on their site, but it wouldn't allow me to create a username.)
July 22, 200915 yr Why don't we hear more of the transit systems in Buffalo, Pittsburgh, or Cleveland? Why is it always Portland?
July 22, 200915 yr Author Why don't we hear more of the transit systems in Buffalo, Pittsburgh, or Cleveland? Why is it always Portland? Cincinnati is the 24th largest metro; Portland is 23rd. Cincinnati is planning a 7.9 mile streetcar; Porltand's is currently 7.8 miles (being expanded) Cincinnati's population density is 4264 sq/mi; Porltand's is 4199 sq/mi Cincinnati is planning on using Skoda rolling stock; Portland uses Skoda rolling stock
July 22, 200915 yr Author Buffalo has a Subway, Cleveland has Heavy Rail and Pittsburgh has light rail
July 22, 200915 yr Cleveland has a line that is either being completely done away with, or severly cut back due to lack of ridership.
July 22, 200915 yr I wasn't asking for comparisons between Cincinnati and Portland. This thread already has plenty of those. If there were trips to other cities besides Portland it would give me more confidence in the streetcar.
July 22, 200915 yr Portland and Seattle are the only American cities that have modern streetcar systems comparable to what Cincinnati is proposing. Buffalo and Pittsburgh have light rail systems that run in subways through downtown, so the comparison isn't really apt. When Cincinnati gets around to building a regional light rail system, though, it would be worth taking trips to other cities besides Portland to see what works and what doesn't work.
July 22, 200915 yr I'll agree with that, but it would still give me more confidence to see the results of a trip to someplace other than Portland. Cincinnati is more similar demographically and economically to Pittsburgh than to Portland.
July 23, 200915 yr None of these comparisons are apples-to-apples. For the millionth time, the only three cities in North America with Skoda streetcars are Portland, Tacoma, and Seattle. Old streetcars aren't the same and aren't as good for the variety of reasons listed on this thread ad nauseam. Old streetcars run in the middle of the street -- not near the curbs, they aren't ADA compliant, they aren't "ADA transparent", they aren't as big, they aren't as quiet, they aren't as smooth, they don't collect fares the same way, they don't have air conditioning, they don't have regenerative braking, and they weren't built through abandoned industrial urban areas within the last 10 years like Portland and Seattle's lines were. Pittsburgh's light rail line was originally a streetcar with its own bridge over the river and tunnel dug through Mt. Washington close to 100 years ago. It survived the streetcar meltdown because of the bridge and tunnel. That line DOES NOT travel through Pittsburgh's "midtown area" -- where Pitt and Carnegie Melon are. It travels due south from downtown Pittsburgh, miles away from that action, through an extremely hilly area which prevents dense residential and office development. It's like if Cincinnati for some reason had a line that crossed into Ludlow and Bromley with an old bridge and tunnel that no bus could use. This stuff's not a secret. There is no grand plot afoot keeping this information under lock & key. All this really exists, and there is extensive and reliable documentation here on the web. But saying it can all be understood simply by reading is to exaggerate the possibilities of written language. It's to presume that reading about the Grand Canyon is the same as visiting it, or reading about a marathon is the same as running one. You have to visit the Portland system because it puts all this nonsense to sleep.
July 23, 200915 yr I just accepted a job at Xavier and was apartment hunting online when I noticed an awesome modern apartment on main street that was in my price range. If the streetcar was built I wouldn't need my car for anything except possibly driving to XU. Groceries, entertainment, etc. would all be covered by the streetcar. This needs to get built. I'm in my late 20's and upwardly mobile. Just the demographic this project is trying to attract.
July 23, 200915 yr I'll agree with that, but it would still give me more confidence to see the results of a trip to someplace other than Portland. Cincinnati is more similar demographically and economically to Pittsburgh than to Portland. I see what you mean Eight and State, Portland just happens to have a very similar plan to what Cincinnati is proposing and a very similar population size. If you do some reading on Tacoma and Seattle, they've also had great success with their modern streetcar lines. Cleveland has a line that is either being completely done away with, or severly cut back due to lack of ridership. Dan, Cleveland is not closing any rapid transit lines due to lack of ridership. Cleveland did have streetcars at one time, but started converting their lines to bus lines following ww2 for multiple reasons, none of which were low ridership. Mainly due to change in ownership. If you want to read more about the Cleveland streetcar, you may find this interesting: http://queencitydiscovery.blogspot.com/2009/06/catacombs-of-cleveland.html The current Cleveland RTA heavy rail is considered one of the best and safest in the nation and is not comparable to what Cincinnati is currently proposing. Now, say, if Cincinnati was planning on utilizing the abandoned subway, Cleveland's RTA would be comparable, however there are no current plans to utilize the subway for rapid transit. In fact, if the current COAST charter amendment passes, it would make it very difficult for the abandoned subway tunnels to ever be utilized in any capacity for rail.
July 23, 200915 yr I never mentioned the Rapid. I'm talking about their downtown line that is being curtailed.
July 23, 200915 yr Downtown bus line or downtown streetcar line? Cleveland currently has no modern streetcar line.
July 23, 200915 yr Regarding Cleveland... http://www.urbanohio.com/forum2/index.php/topic,9.msg8088.html#msg8088 "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
July 23, 200915 yr Cleveland RTA recently announced service cuts would have to happen as a result of the decline in sales tax revenue and ridership. The proposed cuts are to the Community Circular Bus routes which mostly service the inner ring suburbs. The RTA Rapid trains and new BRT Bus route are still operating on a full schedule.
July 23, 200915 yr True...this is LRT and not streetcars, but the story is significant for both. CATS survey: LRT riders not former bus users RailwayAge.com Debunking the oft-made claim that light rail transit systems “steal” riders from existing bus operations, and therefore offers little public benefit, the Charlotte Area Transit System Thursday disclosed survey results finding that 72% of Lynx LRT riders are new to public transportation and hadn't used buses before. Among those riders surveyed who previously had traveled by means other than a single-occupant vehicle, 21% of Lynx passengers previously rode a bus, while another 6% either used a CATS vanpool or another form of carpooling. CATS hired an outside marketing firm to survey nearly 1,000 rail riders in December and January, in an effort to determine the system’s customer market and the reasons people chose to ride LRT. The survey found that the average Lynx rider's householdincome is $65,000, compared with $55,200 for an express bus rider and $31,800 for a regular bus rider. The median county household income is $62,241, according to CATS. http://www.railwayage.com/breaking-news/cats-survey-lrt-riders-not-former-bus-users.html
July 23, 200915 yr Author 83% of Memphis Streetcar riders "don't normally get around town" using public transporation http://www.apta.com/research/info/online/weyrich.cfm
July 23, 200915 yr Jake - Thanks for the info on Pittsburgh. I truly appreciate it. I also really enjoy all of the maps you have placed on this site, including the Portland system overlaid on Cincinnati. I went to Portland in 1999.
July 24, 200915 yr Charlotte actually is a great city to compare to Cincinnati. The social mindsets of people are pretty similar. Charlotte is a little smaller and it has one central business hub (Uptown). They're working on a streetcar line that would connect their medical district, to Uptown, to the university (sound familiar). They have an existing light rail line that is doing tremendously well even though their population densities are a fraction of Cincinnati's. Charlotte also runs a historic looking streetcar along their light rail line that doesn't really serve much of a functional purpose outside of appeasing those who like that vintage look. Their system is clean, efficient, modern and very popular. We talk about Portland because the similarities between Cincinnati and Portland are striking, and we're working on the same system here that they have there. But if you want go anywhere and look at the transit numbers. In every city that has rail their bus ridership benefits as well. Even in your examples of Cleveland, Buffalo and Pittsburgh this holds true. Hell even Buffalo kicks Cincinnati's ass in transit ridership.
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