Here is a TV update on Pittsburgh's current subway extension.  This is a relatively short extension under the river to the North Shore neighborhood and the city's new sports stadiums.  Until the extension of this extension happens, this will be an event and entertainment oriented two stations, and that's not the best use of capital funds, as Cleveland's experience shows. 

 

Logic dictates that a city should prioritize connection of its downtown with its midtown, if it has a midtown.  Cincinnati is planning to do that.  Pittsburgh is not doing that. I don't have any stats but Pittsburgh's Oakland area seems even more densely active than Cincinnati's uptown area, but it can only be reached by rail with a subway tunnel and deep stations.   

 

http://kdka.com/local/north.shore.connector.2.1097188.html

Jake for President! What he wrote should be recalled often.

 

Whoever said there's no reason to get a firsthand, up-close and personal look at modern streetcars before investing $185 million is crazy. I'm sure whoever wrote that would spend several hours at several dealerships before buying at $30,000 car.

 

Portland is the nation's laboratory for transportation innovation. It's the nation's fourth busiest light rail system, has the only modern streetcar that acts as a system with other transit and in which the property effect is no longer disputed. I remember walking the streetcar rails in the Pearl District in 2001 before there were any streetcars running on them -- no streetcars, no people, no new buildings, not even very many cars. I just returned from there. The streetcars were packed for the past few days. People were walking everywere. Streets in the Pearl were from time-to-time, blocked for street parties. For those who know what I'm talking about, yesterday I took the light rail to Washington Park to the Redwood Trail through Forest Park -- where they've built a new overlook in the grove -- and down through Northwest 23rd, had lunch, and then walked the tracks back to the hotel downtown with stuff to see and do all along the way. I dunno, maybe six or seven miles.

 

With the aerial tram and a spiffy new light rail line opening on Fifth and Sixth Avenue this fall, Portland pretty much has it all. You guys really ought to go out there. Even if you were there three or four years ago, it's worth another look. As always, even with today's normally high fares, a couple of people got out there last week for under $300.

I'm hoping to take a trip back out to Portland late this fall, to do some research for my thesis project and do some hiking in the nearby mountains (and visit my sister and newly-born nephew in nearby Olympia as well). I've ridden Portland's streetcar and light rail before, but only for relatively short distances because I was limited on time. I'm looking forward to doing the city justice, as well as checking out Seattle's new streetcar and light rail lines.

Can you guys just build it already so that we can play catch up? I'd like to a streetcar here in a decade!

 

Can you guys just build it already so that we can play catch up? I'd like to a streetcar here in a decade!

 

Findlay Market Parade, Opening Day, 2012. Believe it.

You know I'll be there, and I'll be sure to visit more new (to me) Cincy hoods while in the area. Hopefully by then I'll have made it to most. It'll be hard for city leaders and residents to ignore the success that we're missing out on just over an hour away at that point.

John, hope you will be posting some photos soon!

^ Agreed. Moar streetcar p0rn, please!

 

Speaking of an aerial tram. Imagine one day a LRT system coupled with the streetcar and an aerial tram from Broadway Commons to Mt. Adams. Think it would work?

^

 

I doubt that would serve much of a useful purpose because there are no strong anchors at either end. After it landed at BC, you'd still need to get downtown.

 

I'm not sure of the application in Cincinnati, but I'm kind of intrigued by a connection between Findlay Market and Calhoun Street somewhere. It would be faster than the streetcar trip and would cement the position of Findlay Market for as far as the eye can see.

^ Mt Adams is almost the perfect situation for an aerial tram. The downside to trams is that they're quite slow, so they only make sense for short hillside transit. Trams can also be very cheap by mass transit standards - however, this is one instance where we'd need to avoid the example of Portland. They managed to waste tens of millions of extra dollars on their tram for no particular reason.

 

However, I can't really imagine a scenario where a tram easily connects to the streetcar. Few people are seriously discussing a streetcar alignment anywhere near the base of Mt. Adams, and trams are not practical to extend into the CBD for speed and infrastructure reasons.

^Also, would there even be the need to build such a tram?  Most of the people living in Mt. Adams are happy to own and use personal vehicles, and there's really not much there besides bars to draw in people from outside the neighborhood.  Other than for completeness's sake (which assumes a fully functioning rail system that doesn't currently exist), I can't imagine needing a connection to Mt. Adams, though it would certainly look cool.

no aerial tram...FUNICULAR.

 

If only, as John said, there were something "big" to anchor both ends. 

Charlotte actually is a great city to compare to Cincinnati. The social mindsets of people are pretty similar. Charlotte is a little smaller and it has one central business hub (Uptown). They're working on a streetcar line that would connect their medical district, to Uptown, to the university (sound familiar). They have an existing light rail line that is doing tremendously well even though their population densities are a fraction of Cincinnati's. Charlotte also runs a historic looking streetcar along their light rail line that doesn't really serve much of a functional purpose outside of appeasing those who like that vintage look. Their system is clean, efficient, modern and very popular.

 

We talk about Portland because the similarities between Cincinnati and Portland are striking, and we're working on the same system here that they have there. But if you want go anywhere and look at the transit numbers. In every city that has rail their bus ridership benefits as well. Even in your examples of Cleveland, Buffalo and Pittsburgh this holds true. Hell even Buffalo kicks Cincinnati's ass in transit ridership.

 

I have worked intimately with the planning leadership in Charlotte and I can tell you that they are light years more sophisticated than in Cincinnati (whom I had also interacted with, being a DAAP graduate.)

 

Charlotte's self-image is also much different than Cincinnati's, they feel like they have a mandate to be able to compete with both the NE seaboard cities, since they are a banking hub, and also Atlanta, since they see themselves as the South's "second city." Cincinnati has absolutey no cohesive regional or corporate marching orders. 3CDC is as close as it's ever gotten.

I have a few questions that I hope some of you can answer. How much right of way acquisition will the planned route require? Out of the 185 million the streetcar will cost, how much of it will be paid by outside funding(ie. blue ash airport, state and federal funding, private contributions)? Are any of the major institutions on the route likely to commit funds for the streetcar? For example in Columbus, eventhough a streetcar plan is in its infancy, Ohio State has offered to contribute 12 million to the project. I was wondering if cincinnati could expect similar investments?

I found the answer to my funding question and was very surprised at what I found. Of the 185 million only 36 million of it could be allocated to other projects, and 25 million of that could only be used for infrastructure improvements. So really there is only the 11 million from the Blue Ash Airport sale that could be allocated to different projects. Also, if you take out the 36 million I have mentioned, and the 25 million TIF which can only be spent in downtown and OTR, you are left with 124 million that will only exist if the plan to build the streetar moves forward. So really the question is why are people up in arms about investing a negligible amount of money on a streetcar system that could possibly be extremely lucrative and a catalyst for the revitalization of the inner core of Cincinnati? With congress approving an extra 4 billion dollars for new rail systems, I can't think of a better time for Cincinnati to "seize the day".

 

Can anyone help me out with any answers or ideas on my other questions about private investors, and right of way acquisition?

Let's put it this way:

 

Picture an old apartment complex, and you're the landlord. The buildings are beautiful and solidly constructed, and it's obvious that it was a pretty swanky address when it was new. But the years have taken their toll. Newer properties with better amenities have been built elsewhere, and have been attracting better tenants with more money. Your own complex is showing its age, some of the tenants are getting in trouble with the cops, and there's a few beat-up old cars sitting in the parking lot. Hell, almost every other apartment complex in town even has basic stuff like dishwashers and a fitness room now, but yours still doesn't.

 

A lot of your tenants, however, have pride in the community, and are clamoring for you to make some basic improvements. With some TLC, the place could really shine again. Dishwashers and a fitness center would be a good start. Doing some sensitive renovations and adding a few modern amenities would attract better tenants, make you lots of money, and hopefully even pay for additional improvements and maybe allow you to buy some more properties. Best part is, there's even a good chance that your rich uncle is willing to front you a good portion of the capital, because he has a stake in making the property a better place, and stands to earn a decent return on his investment as well.

 

A few other tenants, though -- the same ones who are constantly bitching and complaining about the rowdy neighbors and leaky faucets -- don't want to see any improvements made, because they're convinced that rents will increase, yuppies will move in, and that the improvements will be a waste because the whole complex is a lost cause. They hate the complex the way it is, but they also hate the idea of making any changes to it. Besides, who needs a newfangled dishwasher anyway? Dishwashers don't work, and everybody would rather do dishes by hand.

 

So, who do you listen to? What sort of landlord do you want to be: The responsible landlord who invests in his properties, maintains a healthy community, and makes a ton of money in the process? Or the slumlord who is happy to see his once-beautiful apartment buildings become a haven for gangs and trailer trash?

 

That's the choice Cincinnati is facing with its transit infrastructure, of which the streetcar is a crucial part. Do you invest a few bucks to make the city a better place so that it will attract new businesses and residents, or do you throw in the towel and let the city continue to decay? Last person who moves to NYC or Portland, please turn off the lights.

You forgot the part about asking the neighbors to help you pay to renovate and clean up your property, while they are already maintaining their property!

Nobody is asking the neighbors to do jack sh!t, despite the fact that making your complex nicer would also increase their own property values.

 

In fact, some of the neighbors are the ones coming into the complex and causing the most trouble.

No, that's exactly what you are asking everyone who pays taxes in the city of Cincinnati,  you're not just depending on your rich uncle, you are demanding that your neighbors help also.  Well, the neighbors think their money will be better invested in other parts of the city.  And please, don't give me that bullshit about the money not being able to be used for other things.  Money is money, and it all comes from the taxpayer, one way or another.

No, that's exactly what you are asking everyone who pays taxes in the city of Cincinnati, you're not just depending on your rich uncle, you are demanding that your neighbors help also. Well, the neighbors think their money will be better invested in other parts of the city. And please, don't give me that bullsh!t about the money not being able to be used for other things. Money is money, and it all comes from the taxpayer, one way or another.

 

Mr. Dan B

 

The funding sources used to build the Cincinnati Streetcar will be primarily city capital funds and federal rail transit funds, both of which cannot be used to fund the fire or police departments, keep open city pools or recreation centers, or contribute to the pension fund.  It is incredibly unlikely that after reading 236 pages of this thread you are somehow unaware of this fact.

 

 

 

 

What if Cincinnati builds the Kennedy Connector, and I never use it?  That's just a boondoggle that will enable Bear Creek Capital to make money by providing access to the Millworks site.  It's a waste of $19.3 million of taxpayer's money, and it doesn't provide any functionality that doesn't already exist by using current streets.

 

My point is that a lot of the criticisms of the Streetcar and other rail project could easily be aimed at road projects.  However we don't question road spending because we understand that not every individual stretch of road has to pass directly in front of your house for it to benefit the city as a whole.

In my whole time growing up in Cincinnati, I don't think my family ever once used the Cross-County Highway. I'm outraged that our taxes paid for that. Outraged, I tell you!! And Harrison Avenue... My family never used that road, either. What a waste of taxpayer money!! It's all about me, me, me!

Dan B,

 

that is the worst use of logic I have read in a while. We are all in this together and something that is good for OTR and Uptown, is good for people in Avondale and Lower Price Hill. But, I have a small problem with the analogy used by Living in Gin. There is only one landlord for everyone. When the decision is made to invest in a particular complex, money comes from every one of the owners assets. That is just how things work.

 

Look at this situation with the eyes of a private company. If it has a division that is not performing, you are basically left with 2 options. Either you sell off the division or you invest money to improve returns. In reality you can't sell off a part of a city, so the only logical idea is to invest. Increasing returns would mean attracting taxpayers to a part of the city that is largely vacant.

As far as money is money and it all comes from the taxpayer I won't argue that, although it is a varying list of types of taxes. However, money can not be used for just anything as has been explained. But the big thing for me is, I would rather Cincinnati benefit from funding by investing in projects that will bring in more revenue, instead of another competing city getting the funds. I am sure Columbus, Indianapolis, Pittsburgh, and Cleveland would all love to have the funds to make investments so their cities can become more appealing.

 

Believe me Living in Gin I understand what you are saying. I know there are those that are stuck in their ways, but for those who can see reason, arguments have to be explained when many of them are just making up their minds on hearsay and readings from the enquirer. From my point of view there will have to be a huge PR push by streetcar and rail supporters to have a chance at beating the anti-rail amendment. Heck when I was in town last week I educated some of my friends who had no clue about the streetcar except that they were against it, but by the time I was finished some had changed there minds! All because the information and reasoning I gave them has never been presented to them, all they have seen are the negative articles and tv reports.

 

I was born and raised on the westside of Cincinnati where a lot of the conservative and cynical thinking towards city expenditures are rampant. I am 24 years old and left Cincinnati in search of a place where people aren't satisfied with keeping things status quo. My first stop has been in Columbus where I live in a neighbohood just north of downtown. The area has a lot of YP and I walk to the grocery, bars, restaurants, and the bus. However, the city lacks character and a form of mass transit. I believe my next stop will be in D.C. where mass transit, rail, and plenty of YP reside. I LOVE Cincinnati and I know I annoy people with how much I talk about it, but until Cincinnati aspires to be something more than a city 20 years behind the times, I will not be returning, and I think many YP feel the same way. I think Cincy is on the verge of breaking out of the past and has many great things under construction and planning. I just hope the progress can keep going so we can take back our status as one of the great cities of the midwest and in the country

 

Mr. Dan B

 

The funding sources used to build the Cincinnati Streetcar will be primarily city capital funds and federal rail transit funds, both of which cannot be used to fund the fire or police departments, keep open city pools or recreation centers, or contribute to the pension fund.  It is incredibly unlikely that after reading 236 pages of this thread you are somehow unaware of this fact.

 

 

Mr. Thomasbw,

 

My point is that people are still paying one way or another and growing more tired by the day by the amount of taxes that are being paid.  Don't insult my intelligence by acting as if this is some magical money!

 

In my whole time growing up in Cincinnati, I don't think my family ever once used the Cross-County Highway. I'm outraged that our taxes paid for that. Outraged, I tell you!! And Harrison Avenue... My family never used that road, either. What a waste of taxpayer money!! It's all about me, me, me!

 

But I bet your family benefited every day by some business transporting goods on these highways and roads.

Taxes are the price you pay for living in a civil society. Deal with it. I don't like paying my rent or electric bill, but I recognize it as the price I must pay for having a roof over my head and being able to turn on my lights. Not even the most left-wing liberal enjoys paying taxes, but most sane people recognize that they must pay something back to society in order to maintain fire and police protection, infrastructure, some form of social safety net, military, etc. If you know of some socio-economic model in which all that stuff can be provided for free, by all means please enlighten us. Until then, it looks like we're all stuck having to fork over a few bucks to the government each year.

 

The top marginal rate is about as low as it's ever been in decades, and we pay significantly less taxes than most other industrialized countries, so spare us the whining about high taxes. It sounds like a spoiled-rotten kid throwing a temper tantrum because it's his turn to take out the garbage. You think you owe nothing to society? Fine, go build yourself a shack in the woods and hunt your own food, and let the rest of us continue investing in a modern city and country. I live in a place that has some of the highest taxes in the country, and yet people are still tripping over themselves to move here and go into business. Hmm... Maybe it's because the city recognizes the need for robust public investment if it wants to prosper?

 

But I bet your family benefited every day by some business transporting goods on these highways and roads.

 

Ah, but there's the rub. We're asked to pay taxes for things we may not directly benefit from, but we still benefit indirectly because those things benefit society as a whole. There's a mountain of independent studies indicating that the streetcar will benefit the entire region, and even those who have no intention of ever riding the streetcar will derive indirect benefits from its construction. Even most mainstream Republicans -- certainly no fans of taxes or excessive government spending -- agree that effective public transit has an important role to play in the city's well-being.

 

If you have any credible research that refutes the benefits that the streetcar will provide, let's see them. But after 237 pages, it's clear you're not interested in facts or logic. This board just serves as a convenient means for you to crap on other peoples' ideas without offering any new ideas of your own.

Can anyone give me some backup on the comments on this article?

 

http://www.wcpo.com/news/local/story/Cincinnati-Mayor-Touts-Economic-Benefits-Of/VNl2DkGLx0yr_KpY2WtNxw.cspx?rss=703

Can anyone give me some backup on the comments on this article ?

"Earth to Mayor Mallory - come on back to reality. Your city is broke, it was listed as one of the most dangerous to live, people are leaving dead bodies all over the place each day,"

These people are in fantasyland & enjoy being blowhards behind a mask of anonymity. Just touting facts is about all you can do.

Actually, making a "talking points" paper, well, ok probably not on paper but coming up with a list of valid and concise talking points would be a good idea.

The Cincy Streetcar blog has been doing that for a long time. Some people still insist on believing the earth is flat, though, no matter how much empirical evidence you present to the contrary.

And some people can't respect a difference of opinion.

As soon as you start offering a reasoned opinion, we'll give it the respect it deserves.

Your only opinion is that streetcars work in other cities, so they will have to work here.  I say that every city is unique, and there are no guarantees that anything different will happen in OTR.  Both are opinions which cannot be backed up by facts.

That's a typical Cincinnati attitude.  It's worked in every other city, but there's a chance it might not work here, so we shouldn't try it...

 

If this project gets done, I sincerely hope it could start to change that attitude of fear and failure that permeates this city.  It's very frustrating and depressing.

I love that logic. I guess the laws of physics must be different in Cincinnati, too.

 

"Indoor plumbing may work in other cities, but there's no guarantee it will work here, so we shouldn't even bother with it."

 

"Electricity may work in other cities, but there's no guarantee it will work here, so we shouldn't even bother with it."

 

"Paved roads may work in other cities, but there's no guarantee they'll work here, so we shouldn't even bother with them."

 

If people like DanB had been around back in the 1700's, Cincinnati would still be a collection of shacks on the bank of the river. And he'd still be bitching and complaining about it.

In your simple mind, since your beloved NYC has subways, they would be successful in Cincinnati!

That's a typical Cincinnati attitude. It's worked in every other city, but there's a chance it might not work here, so we shouldn't try it...

 

Isn't that the truth.

 

It seems like I've ran into a lot of people that were originally against the project and then after engaging in conversation, they come to the conclusion that the general idea is good and reaps benefits, but it just won't happen here as it has in every other single city in the world.

 

How did we get to this point?

In your simple mind, since your beloved NYC has subways, they would be successful in Cincinnati!

 

Umm, the people actually voted to build a subway in Cincinnati, and it would have been successful if finished, but people like you killed it before it was complete. The city has considered that abandonment a civic embarrassment ever since, but COASTers point to that failure and gloat about it.

 

Since you obviously hate the city so much, maybe you should just pack your bags and move someplace where big bad government doesn't exist, and never does anything. I hear Somalia is beautiful this time of year.

Mallory will have a press conference at 2pm to promote streetcars.  Article talks aobut how it will be on the November ballot.  If thats the case, it will be shot down because 700 and the media outlets have absolutely been on the attack against the city the last 10 years

 

http://news.cincinnati.com/article/20090728/NEWS0108/307240040/Mallory+promoting+streetcar+plan

Indeed. There's a strong chance that the streetcar could be voted down.

 

Again, it doesn't help that the proposal is more expensive than it needs to be. People are legitimately sick of the government's overspending. It's a damn shame that one of the few useful ideas is going to bear the brunt of this backlash.

Funny, I'm the one who's here and loving the city, but I'm accused of not loving it by someone who left only because I don't agree with him!!

Look at this situation with the eyes of a private company. If it has a division that is not performing, you are basically left with 2 options. Either you sell off the division or you invest money to improve returns. In reality you can't sell off a part of a city, so the only logical idea is to invest. Increasing returns would mean attracting taxpayers to a part of the city that is largely vacant.

 

And that investment will allow a neighborhood that is currently a black hole for taxpayer dollars -- due to increased police patrols, a concentration of social services, and the subsidies required to encourage redevelopment -- to turn into a huge money-maker for the city -- due to an influx in new businesses and residents, and one of the best urban redevelopment success stories in the US.

Funny, I'm the one who's here and loving the city, but I'm accused of not loving it by someone who left only because I don't agree with him!!

 

Don't flatter yourself. I left when I was 10, and didn't have a choice in the matter. I'm hoping to move back within a year.

Well, I moved here by choice at 18, and have stayed by choice for 38 years.  But of course, you know better about what's good for the area than I.

Well, I moved here by choice at 18, and have stayed by choice for 38 years. But of course, you know better about what's good for the area than I.

 

Judging from your comments, I'd say that's spot on!

you know better about what's good for the area than I.

 

I'm willing to concede that point.

What gives?  You're not quite old enough to be a curmudgeon, Dan. 

Didn't someone challenge the petition b/c people from outside the city signed it?

Nate Livingston has made the argument that the petition language was never properly certified by City Council as required by law. I'm curious to see if his case has any merit.

What gives? You're not quite old enough to be a curmudgeon, Dan.

 

I do have a learner's permit though!