Here is another news poll that needs some streetcar lovin!

 

http://www.local12.com/content/special_coverage/story/Cincinnati-Mayor-Discusses-Streetcars/3srbzdsH8kqpHZH1cWmauQ.cspx

 

Talk to your friends and neighbors who live in the city limits. This is the defining moment that will shape Cincinnati's future.

    "People often say that government should be run like a business.  If you truly believe that then you need to view the taxpayers and citizens as investors and customers within your community."

 

      Ideally, yes. "Should" is the key word. In reality, city governments do all kinds of things to drive away customers. Governments often do the OPPOSITE of what they should. I'm not trying to lecture on governments. I'm just saying that the City of Cincinnati as well as other jurisdictions are driving businesses out of the core, but at the same time the Mayor is calling for development in Over-the-Rhine. It's not consistant. 

 

    Just look at how the Cincinnati Police give out parking tickets. That's a sure way to drive customers away from downtown. You don't see a suburban mall owner giving out tickets.

 

    "I don't think Cincinnati's government, and most cities' governments, would allow a private operator to lay rail lines in the street and control signals."

 

    City governments don't have a choice. The Ohio Revised Code allows private operators to lay rail lines in the street, given that certain conditions are met. All of the laws pertaining to streetcars are still on the books. Streetcar operators must give free fares to firefighters in uniform, for example. Whether a private developer can turn a profit is a different issue.

 

    Streetcar lines are treated similarly to utilities in Ohio. If Duke wants to lay a gas main in a street, there is nothing that City of Cincinnati City Council can do to stop them other than require proper restoration.

I think a very strong argument could be made that if America had to build its primary utilities out today they would have been gov't owned and built instead of privately (and many utilities were gov't owned and built from the beginning). Even cable essentially piggy-backed on the established teleco claim to be able to lay their lines throughout the region and that is a much lighter investment than mass transit.

Here is another news poll that needs some streetcar lovin!

 

http://www.local12.com/content/special_coverage/story/Cincinnati-Mayor-Discusses-Streetcars/3srbzdsH8kqpHZH1cWmauQ.cspx

 

Talk to your friends and neighbors who live in the city limits. This is the defining moment that will shape Cincinnati's future.

 

The poll is 60 percent "No" at 5:30 p.m. -- vote now!

Here is another news poll that needs some streetcar lovin!

 

http://www.local12.com/content/special_coverage/story/Cincinnati-Mayor-Discusses-Streetcars/3srbzdsH8kqpHZH1cWmauQ.cspx

 

Talk to your friends and neighbors who live in the city limits. This is the defining moment that will shape Cincinnati's future.

 

The poll is 60 percent "No" at 5:30 p.m. -- vote now!

 

Quite suspicious how the poll could shift so dramatically in one hour...

^ It was probably on the 5 o'clock news, which attracted a lot of voters who don't read the web page?  Who knows how they presented it?

 

  Utilities in this country are heavily influenced by government even if they are called private utilities.

 

 

I've heard various representatives from COAST on WLW nearly every day. Point being, CP is making little progress and it's beginning to show and wear.

 

I listen to Cunningham quite regularly and Eddie and Tracy nearly every day on my way home from work. COAST has had representatives on there in the past, but not "nearly every day."

^ Indeed. I would argue that it's inappropriate to consider them truly private. It's a hybrid, at best.

 

As this relates to the streetcar, I'm not sure ;) However, do you have a link to the segments of the Ohio Revised Code that you referenced? So you're saying that a private company can force the government to allow them to lay streetcar tracks on any state or city road, so long as they meet certain conditions?

 

Of course, it'll never happen as long as the government keeps funding "free" highway competition, but that's an interesting tidbit to know.

wcpo.com doesn't have any streetcar related material on the main page or any of the top stories anymore.  Instead earlier stories like  "Archery Competition Boosts Business In Butler Co." remains.  Last I checked the poll was over 76% for and 24% against. 

 

 

The Urbanophile's post that LiG mentioned 1 or 2 pages ago is worth another look, as the comments are still coming and still very, very good. 

 

http://theurbanophile.blogspot.com/2009/08/cincinnati-great-streetcar-debate.html

 

 

from this morning's Soapbox:

 

http://www.soapboxmedia.com/features/0804soapdishnowisthetime.aspx

^Excellent article!  Well Done!

I posted some photos of Mayor Mallory's recent tour of the Portland Streetcar. They are mixed-in with some earlier ones. Feel free to use any of them with or without credit.

 

Follow this link: http://www.pro-transit.com/PICS/

I sure hope the charter amendment fail.  California style initiatives are not needed in Cincinnati.  The city charter should focus on the structure of government, not public policy, which should be politically determined.

 

Agreed. The COASTers make lots of pious-sounding noises about "giving people a vote", but there's a reason this country was founded as a representative republic instead of a direct democracy. The founding fathers wisely realized that direct democracy quickly leads to mob rule. That's why we have things like the Electoral College, and why US senators were appointed by the states until 1913. Maybe the COAST teabaggers should've been paying attention in high school civics class instead of jerking off to Ayn Rand novels.

 

The provision for enacting charter amendments via referendum goes back to the days when Cincinnati had a corrupt, entrenched "boss" style of city government that had become completely unresponsive to the general public (the same regime that killed the subway in the 1920's, despite the public having voted to build it). The Charter Commission and the city manager form of government came as a response to the old Boss Cox days, and I think it's worthwhile to have some provision in the charter for citizen-led referendum measures in order to keep politicians honest.

 

However, I think such measures should only come about in extreme circumstances where the normal election process has been compromised, and the bar needs to be set much higher for such referendum measures to be placed on the ballot and enacted. The anti-rail initiative clearly does not meet that standard, and is nothing more than a naked power grab by reactionary elements who would otherwise have no chance of being elected to office via the normal political process.

By the way, I'm all in favor of self-amendable, home rule city charters.  However, amendments should be limited to proper constitutional matters.  Generally amendments should be proposed by the City Council and subject to super-majority voting to approve.  I'm not averse to citizen led amendments, as long as the petition threshold is high, super-majority voting required, and the content is appropriate for a charter type document.

 

The rail amendment fails the test.

 

"So tell CFP to shove their so-called "progress" up their crack-pipe and smoke it."

 

I think with the recent poll numbers and this nonsense being sputtered on their blog, COAST is getting quite desperate.

The provision for enacting charter amendments via referendum goes back to the days when Cincinnati had a corrupt, entrenched "boss" style of city government that had become completely unresponsive to the general public (the same regime that killed the subway in the 1920's, despite the public having voted to build it). The Charter Commission and the city manager form of government came as a response to the old Boss Cox days, and I think it's worthwhile to have some provision in the charter for citizen-led referendum measures in order to keep politicians honest.

 

I can't quite figure out what you are saying here, but I'm pretty sure that it was the Charter Committee, the reformers, i.e. Seasongood et. al., that killed the subway by not voting to authorize more funds (e.g. a new bond issue, etc.) after they had taken power c. 1920's, not the Republican machine.

 

Also, anyone know of any more abbreviations of Latin phrases I can include in future posts?

 

I think with the recent poll numbers and this nonsense being sputtered on their blog, COAST is getting quite desperate.

 

I wouldn't count your chickens before they are hatched.  There is a lot of confusion and simple refusal to understand the issue out there.  It's going to take a lot more than winning Enquirer or Channel 9 polls to prevent this charter amendment.

 

The subway's $6 million bond issue passed in 1916, just months before the US entered WWI, which obviously delayed construction.  The war ended in 1918 but various lawsuits delayed construction until 1920. By then concrete and steel prices had doubled, meaning it was impossible to finish the project with the $6 million. Construction carried on until 1925, when the money ran out, and right around when the charter party took over.  If the Republicans had stayed in office, the thing most likely would have been finished.   

 

Imagine if Tarbell had been mayor, and the money was about to run out on building a Broadway Commons stadium through no fault of his own. Imagine he was in a fierce battle with someone new, and they won, and to stand as a symbol of his supposed ineptitude they let the unfinished stadium stand there for decades.  That's basically what happened to the subway. 

This smells of the anti-gay charter crap that the city had hanging over its head for ten years. Let's hope we don't head back down that road.

It's the same guy, Chris Finney, who has been behind both. 

If the anti-rail charter amendment passes, it will only be a matter of time before it's repealed just like Finney's anti-gay amendment was... Probably sooner rather than later. $6/gallon gas combined with unbearable Brent Spence-related traffic congestion will cause voters to come to their senses, but Cincinnati will have lost crucial momentum at that point.

The government will probably subsidize the oil industry in order to keep gas cheap ($3-4/gallon) because, as you know, we all love our cars!

Gotta keep our Saudi overlords happy.

So that they keep the Cleveland Clinic Foundation happy!!

 

Streetcars serve SUV sandwich in San Francisco...

 

http://www.urbanohio.com/forum2/index.php/topic,19857.0.html

^

 

Could be wrong, but that looks like Cincinnati Street Railway Car 1057 (the yellow one) at the right of the picture.

 

Just wondering, will Tom Luken blame Cincinnati's current streetcar plan for causing this accident?

I'm sure COAST will be along shortly to explain why this incident proves that streetcars are the work of the devil.

 

I like how neither of the streetcars at either end of that sandwich barely have a scratch, while the SUV is squashed like a pancake. That proves to me is that in a fight between a streetcar and an SUV, the streetcar always wins. The SUV driver should be happy he/she didn't pick a fight with a commuter train.

^

 

Could be wrong, but that looks like Cincinnati Street Railway Car 1057 (the yellow one) at the right of the picture.

 

Just wondering, will Tom Luken blame Cincinnati's current streetcar plan for causing this accident?

 

I hope everyone who was involved is unhurt or recovering.

 

John, that is the 1057 car. 

 

    Ohio Revised Code chapter 4951 Street Railways and Interurban Railroads is the legal basis for streetcars.

 

    I don't expect a streetcar or interurban company to start up today, but if there was a need for one, the rules are still on the books.

 

  Another thing about the subway is that Cincinnati had 7 or 8 interurban railroads that didn't have access to downtown. The Cincinnati and Lake Erie, for example, went all the way to Toledo at speeds up to 90 mph, but frustratingly ended at Northside, forcing passengers to take a bus to complete the trip downtown.

 

    The subway would have connected all of the interurbans to the loop. In fact, it was expected that the subway would have been operated by the interurbans.

 

    Of course, WWI intervened, and by the time the dust had settled, all of the interurbans were out of business. Automobile use was rising fast, and there just wasn't interest in completing it.

 

   

Streetcars serve SUV sandwich in San Francisco...

http://www.urbanohio.com/forum2/index.php/topic,19857.0.html

Another reason we need streetcars in Cincinnati. We can't rest on our "most dangerous" laurels forever. We must constantly strive to find new dangers to terrorize the masses.

I hear the military is looking at flesh eating robots.....

Another reason we need streetcars in Cincinnati. We can't rest on our "most dangerous" laurels forever. We must constantly strive to find new dangers to terrorize the masses.

I hear the military is looking at flesh eating robots.....

 

May I give them your address?

The government will probably subsidize the oil industry in order to keep gas cheap ($3-4/gallon) because, as you know, we all love our cars!

 

This is probably the most accurate statement I've ever heard come out of DanB's mouth.

People will end up paying the real price of gasoline and the roads either way -- either the ones who actually use a lot of gas though higher gas taxes, or everyone with higher income taxes.

Problem is the *direct* cost is the one that makes the emotional impression, and that's why some governments subsidize oil directly in order to keep their people from rioting. Here, people think the free parking at shopping centers is free, when really they're paying for it with the products they buy there. 

Will CFP ever do anything public?  They are getting out shouted by these COAST/Smitherman idiots and I never hear much of a response.  Yeah great - they have a website and blog, but honestly if you aren't already involved you wouldn't know about it or really care about it.  It's time to do something.

I'm sure something will be said after all the city/police layoff stuff settles.

Got this via email today:

 

Vote No on the Rail Charter Amendment YouTube Video Contest

 

Cincinnati is finally moving forward. Now a group of the same old naysayers has proposed a charter amendment to prevent our city from developing any and all forms passenger rail.

At a time when other cities are doing everything possible to move their community forward and create jobs, Cincinnati will be left behind (again) if this amendment passes.

We want to do everything we can to tell voters about this charter amendment that jeopardizes our future and we need your help.

 

We challenge you, your friends, your family, and your colleagues to post a video on YouTube describing why Cincinnati should vote NO on the charter amendment and send us the link at [email protected]

 

We will share our favorite videos with Cincinnati's online community, local news media and the best will be shown at special Screening Event and may even be used in a TV commercial!

 

Your video can be serious or humorous. Creative or bland. Entertaining or sad. Record on your webcam, cell phone, FlipVideo camera; just do it!

 

We only ask that it's clean (you would be proud to show to your Mom) and delivers our message Vote No!

 

Questions? Email us at: [email protected]

 

For more info about why we need to Vote No on the Charter Amendment, visit our website: cincinnatiansforprogress.com.

 

 

By submitting your link to us as part of this contest, you are agreeing that CFP may, without any written consent, compensation or additional permission from you,  re-publish it on the internet or provide it to the media for possible broadcast or transmission over the internet or cable television systems, either  in its original form or as edited by CFP. If you do not agree to these terms, you should not submit your video to us.

 

Thank you,

 

Joe Sprengard, Bobby Maly and Rob Richardson

Co-Chairs, Cincinnatians for Progress

Nice, but a little late, unfortunately.

Nice, but a little late, unfortunately.

 

Uh, how is that late?

Why, was the vote already held?

No, I meant that part of my criticism of CFP, is that they are behind the ball in terms of activism and dialogue. Hosting "donation" events is fine and all, but the masses are not really interested in that. Who do you see at Fountain Square, Findlay Market and around DT and OTR? Not CFP, but COAST. Every weekend, and nearly every other day. Distributing flyers, gathering signatures, voicing their opinions (loudly) so that they can be heard and accepted. If it is one thing I give COAST credit for, is for their enthusiasm that isn't doing any favors to the streetcar proponents.

 

The Youtube video bit is nice, but it really isn't pushing much of the agenda. By going directly to the Internet, you are trying to push this out to the 18-30 crowd, those who are younger and are more likely to vote for the streetcar -- but it is a population that generally doesn't vote and is rather apathetic towards many political stances. Cincinnati is made up of a lot of older folks, and they will not be scouting around YouTube for videos from streetcar proponents. They vote more, they have more political clout.

 

I wish CFP well, but I hold my reservations.

COAST is an established and well-funded lobbying group...Cincinnatians for Progress just got their start a few months ago.  They have needed to build a contact base, volunteers, raise some initial funds and get some political/business leader support.  I wish we were in a better position right now, but give CFP some time.

^Define well-funded.  That's misleading.

Thought I don't agree with all of their positions, and certainly don't support the rail charter amendment, you've got to hand it to COAST.  They've been very effective, and their strategy, execution, and hustle are paying off.  I'm particularly impressed with their "big tent" alliance that includes the NAACP and, according to them though it seems hard to credit, the Green Party.

 

I was over at their blog, which I actually find amusing, which had this interesting blurb:

 

"Some of COAST's LGBT members had been telling us how prevalent fiscal conservatism is among their community, so we made a concerted effort to saturate the Pride Parade and Northside 4th of July Parade. We certainly weren't disappointed. These two events out-produced many church festivals. We had no luck recruiting LGBT leaders to "come out" in support of our cause, but community members were some of the most knowledgeable and budget-savvy voters we encountered. Thanks, let's find more ways to work together."

 

They are even going after the LGBT community, which I must say is a good move.  I have noted with enormous despair that members the Indianapolis gay community often opposes progressive urban policy and is very conservative in many local issues.

 

I have to give the political right credit.  While much of their rhetoric is just political spew, they've got sort of sardonic humor streak that, when done right, is extremely effective.  At the national level this is best illustrated by people like Mark Steyn and PJ O'Rourke.  The only equivalent I know on the left, apart from Colbert and Stewart, if you want to count them, is Christopher Hitchens.

 

Consider, could a pro-streetcar person have written anything like this:

 

"Special thanks goes out to Councilmember Roxanne Qualls. Her insistence that uptown be included on the route introduced tremendous uncertainty into the proposal. City planners scrambled to figure out how, and indeed if they could get up the hill, and struggled with a near-doubling of the cost. All of that gave us the time we needed to conduct a rather relaxed signature drive. If not for that, the streetcar might be underway by now.

 

"The biggest boon to petition production, however, was Mayor Mallory. His mishandling of the budget, frequent junkets, and utter obliviousness to the plight of the beleaguered taxpayer engendered a rage among the electorate that had people yanking petitions out of our hands to sign them."

 

The pro-streetcar writings I have seen are quite dour. How about a little light hearted mockery like this?

 

Well, here is another point to make. COAST is appealing to every aspect of the population -- the young (Findlay Market, Fountain Square, etc.), the young-professionals, the middle-class who earn a living and the elderly who are on a fixed income. They all have a stake, whether they live in Cincinnati or in a suburb, on the streetcar. CFP, on the other hand, has been generalizing its appeal to the young and young-professionals, and a select few others, but for that, it is few and far between.

 

Yes, CFP is a newer establishment, but it needs to be out there and heard, not lurking in the shadows. I've panned out some great ideas to CFP via private correspondence, but have not heard back. On the other hand, I've been to a few COAST meetups to see what they are saying, and they have all but welcomed me within their loving tentacles (hehe) even though I disagree with 90% of their viewpoints. Someone brought up a comment to me a few weeks ago, that perhaps we should be looking past CFP for real leadership on this, someone to take in the reins and be bold. Perhaps that time is now.

[qoute]Who do you see at Fountain Square, Findlay Market and around DT and OTR? Not CFP, but COAST. Every weekend, and nearly every other day. Distributing flyers, gathering signatures, voicing their opinions (loudly) so that they can be heard and accepted. If it is one thing I give COAST credit for, is for their enthusiasm that isn't doing any favors to the streetcar proponents.

 

In other places it would be the streetcar proponents who would be doing this.

 

^Been there done that.  We started hitting those areas over a year ago on things like the Downtown Tour of Living, Findlay Market (where we set up shop in a retail space all day long on multiple occasions), the numerous public outreach events at the Art Academy and City Hall.  We've also been out at Gateway Quarter events, up on UC's campus and more.

 

The pro-passenger rail campaign needs to bring their message out to the community councils.  We need to get to know and familiarize our campaign with the voters in Price Hill, Westwood, Mt. Lookout, Mt. Washington, Avondale and beyond.  I don't have any worry in the world that the people visiting Findlay Market, Fountain Square and so on will be the solid votes we can count on.  Sure COAST may grab a few signatures here or there, but the response is not anywhere close to being in their favor...it's just lip-service that they're there.