I've never appreciated the architecture (and sidewalks and streets for that matter) in downtown Cincinnati more than after a visit to Mason to attend a tennis tournament.  Maybe I've missed something up there. 

Actually that's not a fair assessment. Mason has an old "downtown" that essentially was the old village before it was surrounded by development. There are some nicer old homes and a neat art deco city building. And they do have sidewalks.

 

You must have just seen SR 741 on your way to the Tennis Center @ Jack Nicklaus

Back on topic please.  Take any detailed discussions about office trends to another thread.  I know the Cincinnati Streetcar, and any form of transportation, has a wide reaching impact.  But for the purposes of this thread lets keep this for discussing the facts about streetcars and the specific plan for Cincinnati.

All:

 

Look for a potential change in the streetcar route. Looks like the northern loop will use Henry St. instead of McMicken because:

 

1) Turn from Elm to McMicken is too sharp, would have to take the building on the corner down. The city is trying to avoid any right of way purchases.

2) Maintenance building locations better around Henry.

 

Nothing is set in stone, however, I am very close with the design of the project presently because of employment. I will let you know as it progresses.

^I like that.  I'm glad that there's a greater concern to keep ROW purchases low and preservation of existing buildings has high standing.

 

Wouldn't it be great if the Moerlein Brewery building at Henry and Elm found reuse as a high-profile operation, as result of the loop passing along its Henry Street docks?  There are very many opportunities to convert existing Henry Street building stock to residential.  Plenty of infill opportunities exist though.

Great video from WLWT:

http://www.wlwt.com/politics/20552638/detail.html

>McMicken is too sharp, would have to take the building on the corner down.

 

The other issue is that the streetcar should and can be a handsome part of the streetscape, and "weird" pieces of trackwork add an odd tension to an area. Portland has avoided that but there are a few examples of trackwork in Seattle that in a very subtle way interrupt the streetscape. 

 

 

 

^

Henry Street should be renamed 20th Street. It would fix the northern limit of the OTR loop in the public's mind. Knowing that the streetcar goes from 2nd & Main to 20th & Elm willl provide a sense of reference that the Downtown/OTR route pretty much covers the entire CBD basin.

Agreed.  It gives someone unfamiliar with the area an idea of where the other end of the loop is located.  How could an out-of-towner know where "Henry & Elm" is?

Great video from WLWT:

http://www.wlwt.com/politics/20552638/detail.html

Great video from WLWT:

http://www.wlwt.com/politics/20552638/detail.html

 

I love the use of the poster at Findlay

Great video from WLWT:

http://www.wlwt.com/politics/20552638/detail.html

Great video from WLWT:

http://www.wlwt.com/politics/20552638/detail.html

 

I love the use of the poster at Findlay

 

I agree, it seems local media is finally catching on and covering the issue the right way.

here are some composite images of the streetcar I produced

^ I love 'em.

I especially like the one looking out the door.  Very effective demonstration of how they connect with the street life.

http://news.cincinnati.com/article/20090825/NEWS01/908260341/1055/NEWS/Debate+swirls+around+word++streetcar+

 

August 25, 2009

 

Debate swirls around word 'streetcar'

By Barry M. Horstman

[email protected]

 

With Cincinnati City Council readying for a crucial debate over a charter amendment on streetcar and passenger rail plans, the battle over how the measure should be worded on the ballot could end up in court.

 

Having accused streetcar opponents of mounting a deceptive campaign, those working to defeat the ballot measure now face the same accusation after trying to shape its phrasing in ways favorable to their position. If they succeed, streetcar opponents vow to ask a judge to settle the issue.

 

"If they mess with the language, we'll be in court in a heartbeat," said Chris Finney, an attorney and co-founder of the Coalition Opposed to Additional Spending and Taxes (COAST), which supports the ballot measure.

Awesome pics.  Maybe just changing Henry to 20th where the streetcar would run so any historical significance could be preserved for Henry Street.

^Speaking of potential street renamings, I still think that the historic German street names should be restored as part of OTR's overall restoration effort.  But that's another topic for another thread...

^Well, I did address something like that for The Banks thread.  I'd agree with that too.  I see nothing wrong with reverting back to appellations, as a way to provide spatial and historical context.  OTR is absolutely a different animal than Downtown, and it should be distiguishable in some way. 

 

Not sure that I understand that "Henry to 20th" selling point by way of historical significance though.  Using that argument, we might as well, connect 63rd to 77th Streets in Elmwood Place with the numbering scheme downtown...

I really disagree with changing Henry to 20th. A person from outside of Cincinnati will not be better oriented, because they would have no idea how many blocks Over-the-Rhine, or the basin stretch (without previous research...which at that point they'd just as well see Henry street on their map). We would also lose a historic street name, which is not only historic in theory, but is the intersection that is always refered to when Christian Moerlein is referenced (in books AND in beautiful historic advertisements). I have always been in favor of restoring the German street names, however.

 

  Wayfinding is extremely important. People will not use the streetcar if they don't know where it goes. This is another reason why straight alignments are best when possible.

 

  A planner at Queen City Metro told me that if he changes a bus route, it will take over two years for people to catch on. People are creatures of habit. UrbanOhio forumers are generally good with maps, but this is not a skill that everyone has. Many bus riders learn the routes from other people, not from maps or schedules.

 

    That said, changing street names involves a host of problems, many having to do with change of address, records, using old maps, etc. It can be done, but should not be taken lightly.

The Portland Streetcar zig-zags through the grid down to the South Waterfront, in two places traveling on short single-track sections. I agree that this makes the wayfinding more difficult, although this particular passage is through the line's transition area between downtown Portland and the South Waterfront, where the line returns to running on parallel streets. Seattle's line is a bit of a mess considering how short it is, and needs to be seen to be believed.

 

I think part of the argument for 2-way travel on 12th St. is for better wayfinding.  I think for the novice, traveling on Central Parkway makes an impression and they might get confused when they don't travel along the same big street on the return trip or vice-verse. 

 

I remember going on a class trip to New York and people not understanding that we were in fact back in Manhattan because on the way to Brooklyn we went across a bridge and on the way back we went through an underwater tunnel. 

I really disagree with changing Henry to 20th.

 

Why not just make Findlay Street the turnaround?

^

Henry Street is a block-long with no operating businesses or residences so far as I can tell, so no one would notice its being renamed. It's a wider-than normal street, so it could have a siding for storing vehicles too. I think the advantage is in passengers' being able to mentally calibrate distances between numbered streets. This will promote walking. If I'm at 14th and Elm wanting to go north and no streetcar is coming, I know it's a six-block walk to the end of the line. So, depending on weather or time of day, I might decide to walk.

 

Portland has a rigorous numerical ordering of its streets over most of the streetcar route as it travels from east to west, from 1st Avenue to 23rd. I use it all the time to figure whether it's better to walk or wait.

 

Findlay is way too busy for streetcar traffic, I think. There's a lot of congestion around the entrance to Findlay Market's parking lot. I doubt it would work.

 

I'm sure the engineer and planner types will sort all this out.

I really disagree with changing Henry to 20th. A person from outside of Cincinnati will not be better oriented, because they would have no idea how many blocks Over-the-Rhine, or the basin stretch (without previous research...which at that point they'd just as well see Henry street on their map). We would also lose a historic street name, which is not only historic in theory, but is the intersection that is always refered to when Christian Moerlein is referenced (in books AND in beautiful historic advertisements). I have always been in favor of restoring the German street names, however.

 

I don't know about that.  If I'm a visitor getting on the streetcar at 9th street, headed for a destination at the end of the line, it would be far less disorienting to know that I'm going to 20th street (11 blocks from where I started) than Henry, which from its name could be anywhere and running parallel or perpendicular to the river.  Since this is just a numerical title, it would be quite easy to turn this street into 20th, but still retain the name Henry.  Covington did this with 10th Street/MLK.  Both names appear on the street signs and both are valid street addresses.

Why not just make Findlay Street the turnaround?

 

I think we need to keep the route as far north as possible to maximize the redevelopment potential of the Mohawk/Renner hillside.  Every block further south we move the line the less development potential we have.

 

And as John noted, Findlay is extremely busy as it is the entrance to the main Findlay market lot. 

In addition to traffic concerns on Findlay, there is a large 138kV buried transmission cable that runs from Charles sub. to Rochelle Sub along Findlay. This also may play a part in the future route up to UC. Luckily the line is under the side walk along Findlay and Vine.

 

Again, the maintenance facility could play in nicely with the Henry St. route. Alot of work to do yet, lots of issues with Freedom Way, Walnut and Main bridges, grade from 3rd to 4th along Walnut and Main, car and track selection, utility relocations. But work is proceeding at a nice pace, regardless of the ballot issue.

Let fountain guide streetcar vote

By Caleb Faux • August 25, 2009

http://news.cincinnati.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20090825/EDIT02/908250357

 

I commend The Enquirer's editorial opposing the proposed charter amendment directed at street cars ("Poison pill amendment is about less, not 'more,' " Aug. 9). One online reader's response got me to thinking. The commenter derisively referenced moving the fountain on Fountain Square 50 feet, as if somehow the city one day suddenly decided to spend millions of dollars to move the fountain a short distance.

 

 

At the time that decision was controversial. Some even suggested placing the matter on the ballot for the voters to decide. That situation provides a great example of how placing decisions on the ballot might not work to our benefit.

 

As a Planning Commission member, I was asked to vote on that issue. At first I was a bit skeptical. I liked the old Fountain Square. But as I came to understand the details of the changes proposed and the reasons for them, I changed my view and voted to support the move. It was not simply moving the fountain; there was much more to it.

 

The fountain had to be removed from the square to allow for reconstruction of the garage beneath. When it came time to put the fountain back, where it went was an open question. The design team proposed a new location, arguing it would make the square more functional. They made a convincing case, though the traditionalists remained dubious; probably some still are.

 

But today the evidence speaks for itself. Anyone who's been downtown on a summer evening over the last two years knows the redesigned Fountain Square is a huge success. The designers were right. The square is much more active and vibrant now than it has been at any time since the 1970s. The new design allows for a performance space in the way the old didn't. It attracts people and has become downtown's public living room.

 

But had we placed that decision on the ballot, my guess is the change would never have happened. Not because voters aren't intelligent, but because in most cases they don't have time to study the details and so they opt to maintain the status quo; it's comfortable. Had that happened, we would all have missed out on a good thing. In that situation an informed Planning Commission and City Council made the right decision and the city is a better place for it.

 

That's the way our system is supposed to work.

 

Caleb Faux of Hyde Park is chairman of the Cincinnati Planning Commission and executive director of the Hamilton County Democratic Party.

 

^Great editorial.  I definitely respect his opinion.

Interesting bit with map...

http://www.infrastructurist.com/2009/05/04/chart-americas-streetcar-renaissance/

I've noticed that there is no mention that Cincinnati is even in the planning phase for a streetcar system.  Hopefully the feds know better or we may never get funding.

In the map? It's in there.

^Yes.  Preliminary planning.  I want to know what constitutes advanced planning.  We already have the route nearly set.  Does that mean an environmental assessment is underway?

Sorry about that.  For some reason the pop up boxes screwed up my sense of geography there for a moment.

^

The environmental assessment for the Cincinnati Streetcar is definitely underway.

Note that the map dates to May, so it is a bit dated.

Note that the map dates to May, so it is a bit dated.

 

Great map, nonetheless. It's a great visual for the "We're not NYC" sh!t. I bet 80% of the region doesn't even know we used to have streetcars. lol

 

Serving 81 home games a year

How many people could effectively be transported from UC and/or OTR to GABP in an hour or 2 before a game?

^ I'd be interested in knowing that too. I don't think I've read what the special event capacity would be.

 

I do know that the "maximum" capacity per car is 170 (which probably means closer to 200 for a crowded sporting event). So I guess it all depends on how many cars can be clustered to arrive at the venue at the beginning/end of games and if extra cars can be added into service on gamedays.

 

Obviously, you're going to at least be able to move several thousand if you're talking about an hour or two window. Based on my limited experience at Reds games, I think the streetcar would be highly effective at reducing congestion for a regular game.

 

I doubt there would be a huge impact for Bengals games or Reds sellout games - although you're still talking about several thousand people who either 1) don't need a car at all, or 2) don't need to park downtown.

 

EDIT - for what it's worth, one of the streetcar studies anticipates that each Bengals/Reds game will generate less that 1,000 round-trip riders. I think this is a patently absurd, overly-conservative estimate. If anything, the problem will be the exact opposite. There will be (hypothetical numbers here) 7,000 people who want to ride it but only enough capacity for 4,000. That's going to be the problem for sports game - not generating demand.

Assuming each car can hold 200 people at crush capacity, then it all comes down to how frequently the streetcar is running.

 

If it runs every five minutes, then it could carry 2400 people per hour.

If it runs every ten minutes, then it could carry 1200 people per hour.

If it runs every fifteen minutes, then it could carry 800 people per hour.

If you have two or three extra cars in reserve one could imagine adding those cars to the line for a special event. When I visited San Diego I went to a Padres game where the light rail system ran an express from Qualcomm Stadium to Petco Park with a stop and the Old Town Transit Center. If Cincinnati had light rail I could see something like this for Reds and Bengals. I would imagine you could add an extra streetcar to the line and run express cars from UC to GABP with maybe one or two stops along the way.

^

One thing we've learned about transportation over the last few decades is that even small mode switches can have huge impacts. People who plan highways know that even shedding 5% of traffic can improve speeds by 20-30%. So I wouldn't discount the benefit of 2,000 or so Reds or Bengals fans using the streetcar.

 

 

Serving Saving 81 home games a year

 

Fixed that one for ya.  :wink:

 

  Today's Enquirer discussed whether or not the streetcar will draw riders away from Metro. According to the Enquirer, 15,000 people a day ride between the U.C. area and downtown, although it wasn't known how many were just passing through those two places on the way to somewhere else.

 

    Tom Luken claims that most of those people will switch to the streetcar, which harms Metro by taking away fares. The streetcar supporters claim that the streetcar will result in a higher ridership for Metro because more people will be using transit.

 

    But here's the kicker:

 

    Also on the same page in the Enquirer, it was announced that a new interchange on I-75 will be opening soon, opening up 600 acres for development. The Liberty interchange cost $40 million.

 

   

So Tom Luken now opposes the "boondoggle" because it will be too successful?

 

[bangs head against wall]

In Luken's "defense", he is playing both sides.  He says that it will either be successful and siphon off Metro's riders, or it will be unsuccessful and completely empty.  Spoken like a true politician

How many people could effectively be transported from UC and/or OTR to GABP in an hour or 2 before a game?

 

Compare that to getting from UC to Bengals Game using the Current Metro System, From the Cincystreetcar Blog:

 

Suppose 150 UC students want to go to the Bengals game on a Sunday afternoon.  Wishing to avoid the high cost of parking near the stadium or the risks of drinking and driving, they decide to take public transportation.  The group arrives at the intersection of McMillan and Vine streets at exactly 12:00pm going to a game with a 1:10pm kick off.  We will assume that any public transportation that comes to pick up the students will be about ¼ full (probably a low estimate as the streetcar would be busy on game days).

 

After Cincinnati invests in a streetcar and it begins operations, the students would wait about ten minutes (maybe less if a streetcar was approaching when they arrive), and would all board the same streetcar, filling it to its capacity of 199 passengers.  Even if the streetcar was too full to take all the students in one trip, in ten minutes another bus or streetcar would be along to pick them up.

 

They would get dropped off at 2nd and Walnut just over two blocks from the Stadium, and  have about 45 minutes until kickoff.  Those of legal age could stop in one of the many new bars or restaurants at The Banks for a Christian Moerlein or Hudy Delight, and then walk over and enjoy the game.

 

Unfortunately, Cincinnati does not have a streetcar at present, so the students would have to take Metro.  The first bus, a 46, would arrive at 12:20 and around 35 students would add to those currently on the bus and fill it to capacity.  The students would get dropped off at 5th and Walnut, and after a 14 minute walk make it to the game at 12:49.

 

The second bus, a 78, would arrive at 12:24, and would fill to capacity.  After being dropped off at 6th and Vine, the students would make it to the game by 12:53.

 

The third bus, another 46, would arrive at 12:45.  The 35 students boarding this bus would miss kickoff and arrive at 1:14.

 

The fourth bus arrives at 12:56, and this load of students don’t make it to the game until 1:23pm.  The reality is they could have walked to the stadium faster.

 

If they didn’t manage to squeeze their way onto another bus, the fifth and final group of 10 students gets picked up at 1:10.  The Bengals will likely be down 7-0 by the time they arrive at 1:39.

 

Unless the Bengals are losing badly and students choose to start leaving in the 2nd or 3rd quarter, the bus ride back is going to be just as bad.

 

After this experience, how many of the students in the 3rd, 4th, or 5th busload are likely to

 

The Cincinnati Streetcar, even viewing it strictly as a means of transit and not considering the myriad economic development benefits, is more reliable, easier to use, and less confusing than the bus system because riders can see the tracks and know where the streetcar will run.

 

Buses are an important part of any transit system, but rail transit’s higher capacities and easily understandable routes make it a better choice for connecting the City’s major attractions and most densely populated neighborhoods, especially for intermittent users riding to a ball game, theatre performance, or one of the new business along the route.  Just as a city wouldn’t make every road a one way street, a ‘one size fits all’ bus-only transit system doesn’t perform as well with a transit system with numerous modes of transportation each filling a different role.

 

Because they are easier to use, streetcars it encourage intermittent users as well as dedicated ones in a way buses just don’t.  Once infrequent transit riders get comfortable riding the streetcar, they will be more likely to consider other transit options and ride the bus, boosting ridership on both systems. Increase Transit Ridership—Build the Streetcar

And don't forget, this is also about economic redevelopment and repopulating Cincinnati, allowing people to live with fewer cars and drive less, relieving highway congestion and Cincinnati's taxpayers of the need to build and subsidize all these parking structures everywhere.

 

 

In my mind, the Streetcar would be operated by Metro or some new organization that would coordinate bus and streetcar routes.

Brad that is an interesting analysis, and I am familiar with those bus routes, but thinking about it, I couldn't remember where exactly they load downtown.  A big problem is that yes, those routes all pass that point near UC, but where do they load downtown after the game?  I know the #78 loads next to Arby's on Vine St., the #17 comes up Main so I think it loads at Government Square.  I think the #46 might load at Arby's as well, but I'm not sure.  People will learn one bus route and *maybe* two, but almost nobody knows where 5 or 6 bus routes go, whereas everyone knows where rail routes go.   

 

Learning that a bus route *does not* go the way you think it does is a hard lesson to learn, like how picking up the #39 in Northside, thinking it heads straight down Clifton, is definitely not the case.  But that happened so long ago to me, I thought the wayward bus was the #18, until I just checked the metro map. 

 

 

 

^ 17=Government Square