I'm so tired of constantly having to come up with different places to use as case studies (Portland, Seattle, Charlotte, Tampa...). 

 

If you truly believe in something, it shouldn't be so hard to continue to explain why we are like other cities.

 

It's not hard, but I do get tired of constantly providing a half-dozen or more case studies for every person that asks me about the project.  Over the course of the past couple years I have gone through and explained this to more than 100 people.

 

I believe in Cincinnati more than most and stand up for the city with the facts I am armed with at every turn, but like I said, it does get tiring to have to keep telling people the same thing over and over.  You know how I know, I've taken the time and done some research.  It's all public information and if you want to go the next step and travel to these places to see for yourself then you're completely free to do so.

 

It's understandable that not everyone knows everything about everything, but I don't go up to a chemist and ask them how a complex scientific study works and expect a concise response that I can understand in the midst of an elevator ride...nor do I question that chemist on their facts and knowledge of the topic just because I may not understand it.

Cincy needs something unique. What happen to the people mover that used single cars(small) above ground? Skytram?

 

I think they ended up building it at an airport somewhere. One of the problems with it was that it was a proprietary system.

 

...HAHA where did you find this?

I'm so tired of hearing about Portland's transportation system.  We need to figure out what's best for Cincinnati and the Midwest.

 

I must admit that I somewhat agree with this sentiment. Portland, along with Charlotte, Seattle, and Tampa, are all very different cities from Cincinnati. All 4 are "modern" boom cities which were experiencing a good amount of growth before installing street car lines. They are also located in geographic areas that people tend to be moving to as opposed to from.

 

The fact is, there are no two cities that are an exact apple-to-apple comparison.  Any two US cities will have different variables: geography, density, politics, etc.  And even the types of rail vary greatly from city to city (light rail, heavy rail, commuter rail, or streetcar? subway, street level, or elevated?).  You can't just say, "our variables aren't exactly the same as Portland's, so the comparison doesn't work."  What if we did that with other forms or transit?  "Our density isn't exactly the same as Cleveland's, so their interstate highways wouldn't work here."

 

Rail works in cities smaller than Cincinnati, and in cities larger than Cincinnati.  It works in cities more dense than Cincinnati, and cities less dense than Cincinnati.  It works in cities that are more liberal than Cincinnati, and in cities that are more conservative than Cincinnati.  It works in cities that are flatter than Cincinnati, and in cities that are hillier than Cincinnati.  Now... why wouldn't it work here?

...HAHA where did you find this?

 

The webcomics Toothpaste for Dinner and Married to the Sea frequently feature comics that "poke fun" at Cincinnati.  The artist was originally from here and apparently didn't like it very much.

 

More Cincinnati-related ones: http://bit.ly/KH89u

 

Rail works in cities smaller than Cincinnati, and in cities larger than Cincinnati.  It works in cities more dense than Cincinnati, and cities less dense than Cincinnati.  It works in cities that are more liberal than Cincinnati, and in cities that are more conservative than Cincinnati.  It works in cities that are flatter than Cincinnati, and in cities that are hillier than Cincinnati.  Now... why wouldn't it work here?

 

 

 

For the past decade I’ve lived in an old, somewhat decaying, but still beautiful city, whose residents seem to have a love/hate relationship with it.  Recently, a proposal was made for a streetcar running four miles from downtown, through a historical registry neighborhood, with a large minority population and a high crime rate, up to our public university and hospital center.  Sound familiar? 

 

Well, for the past decade I’ve lived in tiny Ogden, Utah (pop 70,000) in Weber County (pop 200,000) which is currently reviewing the three possible streetcar route options before moving to the construction phase.  This in a very conservative, ani-government spending state that is heavily Republican (Clinton actually finished third here in 1992.)  The only opposition to the streetcar is the Mayor and his developer cronies who would prefer an urban gondola (don’t get me started!) 

 

 

Ogden is smaller than Cincinnati, less dense than Cincinnati, more conservative than Cincinnati, and actually flatter than Cincinnati.  And we think it will work here.

So for the point of using case studies...is it better to use cities with similar systems as a point of reference, or is it better to use cities with different systems or none at all?

 

I just don't see how it helps anyone to use Pittsburgh's rail system as a case study when it is a different form of rail.  Should we be looking at Columbus or Indianapolis who don't have rail systems?  Should we be looking at Cleveland's BRT or their rail?  Minneapolis has light rail, but I would imagine many would say that's not a fair comparison either.

 

With that said, should we just not try to look at other cities and learn from their experiences?  Who should Cincinnati be looking at instead of Portland, Seattle, Tampa, or Charlotte?  Would Washington D.C., Boston, Atlanta, Minneapolis, Denver, Phoenix, Dallas, San Diego or St. Louis be better?

I'm so tired of constantly having to come up with different places to use as case studies (Portland, Seattle, Charlotte, Tampa...). 

 

If you truly believe in something, it shouldn't be so hard to continue to explain why we are like other cities.

 

The reality is we only have so many people that truly want Cincinnati to succeed, everyone else wants us to stay the same or fail because its easier for them to understand why.

This is a great way to move the city into the spotlight and get / keep people in town and thinking for the future. You keep jobs bye keeping talent ... lets move up and become a real city not just a "Midwestern" city. cincy is greater then that and we can do it if we want to.

I'm so tired of constantly having to come up with different places to use as case studies (Portland, Seattle, Charlotte, Tampa...).

 

If you truly believe in something, it shouldn't be so hard to continue to explain why we are like other cities.

 

The reality is we only have so many people that truly want Cincinnati to succeed, everyone else wants us to stay the same or fail because its easier for them to understand why. 

 

Finney fits perfectly into the second part of your statement.  Smitherman is being used by Finney plain and simple.  I don't know how Finney worked the charm on him but he did. 

 

 

Well, for the past decade Ive lived in tiny Ogden, Utah (pop 70,000) in Weber County (pop 200,000) which is currently reviewing the three possible streetcar route options before moving to the construction phase. This in a very conservative, ani-government spending state that is heavily Republican (Clinton actually finished third here in 1992.) The only opposition to the streetcar is the Mayor and his developer cronies who would prefer an urban gondola (dont get me started!)

 

 

A friend of mine attended a conference at the University of Utah in Salt Lake City this summer, and one of the featured speakers was a VP at the unniversity. When asked by someone in the audience, "How is it that Salt Lake City, a politically conservative stronghold in the most Republican state in the nation, manages to build all these new rail lines and continues to plan for more of them?" My friend said the speaker thought for a minute and then answered, simply, "Because we think about the next generation here."

 

 

At least this mayor wants to do something. Oil is bought in dollars around the world and now they want to change it. If it does happen. Watch our price in gas skyrocket worse than what we saw last year. If we don't have other ways of getting people to work. This town is going to be deader than a door nail.

While this article doesn't specifically mention the streetcar, it does trash COAST and the NAACP, and the stereo-typical mindset of the native Cincinnatian:

 

http://victorianantiquitiesanddesign.blogspot.com/2009/10/cincinnati-naysayers-dont-let-that-door.html

The comparison to Portland isn't a helpful one at this point, in my opinion.  A whole lot of people have a negative view of the West Coast in general, and telling them that the streetcar will make us more like Portland is just giving them another reason to be against it.  I haven't been to Portland, and I don't really have any interest in going.  I still think we need a transit system, though, and from a design and engineering standpoint there are some things in Portland that can be (and have been) used as precedent - I just don't like the Portland propaganda that's always being spread around.  That could just be a personal preference, though.

 

Sometimes I worry that there's going to be a move to rename Cincinnati to "New Portland."

 

If you visit Portland you will walk away loving it.

^Agreed.  I thought I was going to hate Portland before I started travelling there for business.  It's actually a very nice city.  Of course, I'm speaking from the point of view of a visitor who has been able to familiarize himself with the area via their incredible transit system.  If that didn't exist, I might not have found as many great places there as I have.

here is an interesting statistic.  Portland is the 23rd largest metro in the country. Cincy is 24th.  But portland is 12th for transit ridership.  We are 32nd.

I'm a little annoyed at the speed in which CFP is moving concerning yard signs.  I know the signs aren't the biggest game-changers, but I signed up for one as soon as the online request form opened up and I have yet to recieve one.  I've only seen 2 or 3 anywhere in the city.  I plan on stopping by the Vine Street office to get it myself in the next few days, but why hasn't it been delivered?  Not enough volunteers?  Fund-raising events are all well and good, but where is that money going exactly?  About the only time I hear from CFP is when they're requesting money.

Agreed. The Election is in 20 days and I haven't seen any signs.

Interestingly the Wiremobile would likely not be affected by Issue 9.

Folks....take a little initiative here re yard signs. I realize that CFP has not been crystal clear re distribution of signs.  But just go to the office at 1344 Vine and grab some. Give them a call.  They aren't hand delivering them to everyone.  I also saw a lot of people taking them home from the fundraiser last night.

I'll be getting out my sharpie and posting a sign in my window.

 

I know CFP is just a volunteer organization so i won't get on them too hard.  They're doing more than i am for this...so, it's tough to complain too much.

 

– Mr. Pearson just had a heart attack!

–(is an ambulance coming?)

– na man, he'll take the street car

 

LOL

I do love the sense of humor in these videos.... :-D a very effective campaign tool... especially since the streetcar opponents :whip: don't seem to have a sense of humor.

Nice job!!! I love Destructo!

I've not had a conversation about the streetcar with anyone outside of UO.  I mean no one!  How a sign that says:

 

VOTE YES ON ISSUE NINE

 

Say no to the streetcar

 

made it to my front yard out here in suburbia is beyond me!  Well played, to whomever is responsible!

 

BTW, I took it down!

 

^ Right because it's a city issue not a county issue.

I've not had a conversation about the streetcar with anyone outside of UO. I mean no one! How a sign that says:

 

VOTE YES ON ISSUE NINE

 

Say no to the streetcar

 

made it to my front yard out here in suburbia is beyond me! Well played, to whomever is responsible!

 

BTW, I took it down!

 

 

Yikes.  That's borderline scary behavior.

Aaron Renn- Vote No on 9

http://cincystreetcar.wordpress.com/2009/10/15/chicago-urban-affairs-writer-vote-no-on-9/

^ Right because it's a city issue not a county issue.

 

Right that I took it down?  Do you not think that only 1 mile from the Cincinnati border, that my neighbors don't work in the city?  do you not think that everyone who might see it in my yard could have an effect on someone who might be a voter?

 

No, I took it down because I don't agree with it.

 

 

Yikes. That's borderline scary behavior.

 

Yes, it could be scary, but I will assume someone from UO did it in good fun.

Interesting debate tonight that I'll blog about over the weekend. I came away satisfied that the students at UC were against Issue 9, but that the debate had divulged into fantasies on both sides. The comparisons that Cincinnati will "never" be able to attract talent and young professionals is a bit far fetched, much like the comparisons that the streetcar is somehow equatable to Hitler and Stalin. I did have some interesting discussions with a board member of SORTA -- where we seemed to agree with pretty much most of the topic and came off as being entirely different behind the scenes. Mark Miller was there -- had a beer with him later and chatted up a storm. And met Chris Finney, my first time, who is a strong, strong anti-government libertarian. I couldn't find much to agree with him with, but he was interesting to talk to.

Just got back to my hotel from the debate/beer gathering mentioned by Sherman... My impressions are similar to his. The floor vote at the end of the debate was Mark Miller vs. everybody else.

 

When I woke up this morning and headed to LaGuardia I certainly didn't expect to be ending the day having beers with Mark Miller and Chris Finney.

Well, I was expecting that it would be Mark Miller versus everyone else. It was stacked because it was a UC class on IIRC urban planning (I came in 20 minutes late -- restroom called).

 

That said, I wonder how much truth there was that 'every rail project has failed'? The following are viewed in the current tense:

 

1. Cinci Southern hasn't failed.

2. Riverfront Transit Center has failed, because it was designed for commuter rail on one end, and double-stacked high-speed rail on the other. Because it can't accept double-stacked high-speed rail on its eastern end, it rules out any east-west connections or movements of the terminal in the future. Now, if we get Metro Moves, and if we can get a stable location for a high-speed terminus, then RTC can be seen as ahead of its time.

3. Subway has failed, but because of inflationary costs.

4. Union Terminal has failed, but because of a decline in ridership and the movement of the terminal to a shack under a viaduct. By the time it was moved back, Queengate had expanded and NS demolished its concourse. Now, we can't even expand the concourse by one track without facing federal regulatory hurdles and NS.

5. The CH&D, CL&N and LM had passenger operations that were failing only a year after being put into operation in Cincinnati. They had to subsidize the costs of passenger operations through freight. The streetcar, for instance, killed off the CL&N passenger operation, and the streetcar killed off the branch westward to the zoo (through Avondale, once part of a separate line).

Folks....take a little initiative here re yard signs. I realize that CFP has not been crystal clear re distribution of signs. But just go to the office at 1344 Vine and grab some. Give them a call. They aren't hand delivering them to everyone. I also saw a lot of people taking them home from the fundraiser last night.

 

Walked down today around noon and they were at lunch.  :-(  The area is looking awesome though!

Well, I was expecting that it would be Mark Miller versus everyone else. It was stacked because it was a UC class on IIRC urban planning (I came in 20 minutes late -- restroom called).

 

Terry Grundy's classes have turned more into College of Business dominated classes as they make for a convenient elective for them outside of their core classes.  The COB students are typically quite conservative...even in Grundy's class.

Interesting debate tonight that I'll blog about over the weekend. I came away satisfied that the students at UC were against Issue 9, but that the debate had divulged into fantasies on both sides. The comparisons that Cincinnati will "never" be able to attract talent and young professionals is a bit far fetched

 

I don't think anyone ever said that without the streetcar the city will "never" be able to attract talent, they were simply making the case that a modern streetcar system as well as improved intermodal public transit options will help bolster that attraction for young talent.

 

much like the comparisons that the streetcar is somehow equatable to Hitler and Stalin.

 

While I certainly disagreed with Mr. Lewis who represented the We Demand a Vote coalition during the debate, he never equated the streetcar to Hitler or Stalin. He was making a comparison that the notion of city council approving the streetcar plan without a public vote was somehow similar to that of an authoritarian dictator.

2. Riverfront Transit Center has failed

3. Subway has failed

4. Union Terminal has failed

 

I guess we need to define failed. The Riverfront Transit Center was build while there was a big whole there saving millions. I would call that vision.

The subway was planned in the early teens stalled because of the the big war and then inflation set in so there wasn't enough money. The planning failed, it doesn't mean the subway was a bad idea.

Wasn't the Union Terminal used for years?

If you use this standard, man the list is endless of failures, People Purple Bridge = FAILURE.

What really got my goat during the debate was Mr. Lewis characterizing the subway, Union Terminal, and RTC as "boondoggles" when he personally led the effort to kill the 2002 proposal that would have utilized all three facilities for transit purposes. It's like this guy was born without a sense of irony.

 

They aren't failures because they were built, Mr. Lewis. They're failures because you made them fail. And they'll remain failures as long as COAST and people like Mr. Lewis have their way.

Thanks Living in Gin thats kind of what I was trying to say.

They failed because of politics not because they were bad ideas.

At least not all Republicans are CAVE men,

 

Committee on Transportation and Infrastructure, Republicans; we are on the verge of a new era for high-speed rail in this country, because the United States is a third world country when it comes to high-speed transportation.

The comparison to Portland isn't a helpful one at this point, in my opinion.  A whole lot of people have a negative view of the West Coast in general, and telling them that the streetcar will make us more like Portland is just giving them another reason to be against it.  I haven't been to Portland, and I don't really have any interest in going.  I still think we need a transit system, though, and from a design and engineering standpoint there are some things in Portland that can be (and have been) used as precedent - I just don't like the Portland propaganda that's always being spread around.  That could just be a personal preference, though.

 

Sometimes I worry that there's going to be a move to rename Cincinnati to "New Portland."

 

I have been to Portland many times for work and stayed downtown.  The comparison is good not only because Portland is a pretty similar city to Cincinnati but Portland has an awesome city center.  By far and away the best downtown I've ever been to.  Obviously it's different than Chicago and New York, but from a mid-size city perspective, Portland is incredible.  And that reason has a whole lot to do with the streetcar.  The Pearl District which is awesome as well, is what it is because of the streetcar.....This is why it is such a good comparison. I'd love it if Cincinnati's city center could only become half as nice as Portland's.

I've seen lots of No on 9 signs in the Clifton Heights area. I was driving down Kellogg headed toward California and about every 50-100ft there were Yes on 9 signs on both sides. Perhaps we should have some sort of canvassing group get together to plant signs in medians and along the sides of roads and in vacant lots around the city.

Curious... I've yet to see any Yes on 9 signs. Anyone have a picture? I haven't been into the neighborhoods much lately and assumed that with their campaign being so anti-streetcar, their slogan would be something like "Say No to Streetcars, Vote Yes on 9".

http://caast-usa.blogspot.com/2009/10/jason-gloyd-is-liar-or-idiot-whichever.html

^ Bingo.  The actual slogan is "Say Yes on Issue 9.  Stop the Streetcar"

 

http://thephonyconey.blogspot.com/2009/10/coasts-yard-signs-more-nonsense.html

 

By the way Cygnus, I picked up my sign earlier this week and you are quite right.  The area is looking great!

^ Bingo. The actual slogan is "Say Yes on Issue 9. Stop the Streetcar"

 

http://thephonyconey.blogspot.com/2009/10/coasts-yard-signs-more-nonsense.html

 

By the way Cygnus, I picked up my sign earlier this week and you are quite right. The area is looking great!

 

And yet the yard sign has a picture of a bus on it.

If you can do it (and I have a station wagon) keep a stack of signs in the car.  Put them up anywhere any time.

 

re the Hitler and Stalin references, that is somewhat ironic coming from referenda proponents.  Historically, and more in Europe than in the states, opposition to the referendum process has arisen because of use by dictators such as Adolf Hitler and Benito Mussolini who used the plebiscite (referenda) to disguise oppressive policies in a veneer of populism. Hitler's use of the plebiscite is argued as reason why, since World War II, there has been no provision in Germany for the holding of referendums at the federal level.

 

British politician Chris Patten summarized many of the arguments used by those who oppose the referendum in an interview in 2003 when discussing the possibility of a referendum in the United Kingdom on the European Union Constitution:

 

“I think referendums are awful. They were the favourite form of plebiscitary democracy of Mussolini and Hitler. They undermine Westminster [parliament]. What they ensure, as we saw in the last election, is if you have a referendum on an issue politicians, during an election campaign, say oh we're not going to talk about that, we don't need to talk about that, that's all for the referendum. So during the last election campaign the Euro was hardly debated. I think referendums are fundamentally anti-democratic in our system and I wouldn't have anything to do with them. On the whole, governments only concede them when governments are weak. (BBC, 2004)

 

Feel free to use this for your website, blog, facebook profile, etc

Don't put the signs in medians or on city right-of-way. They will be removed and discarded. Just a FYI.

On November 4th, be sure to head out and collect said signs and dispose/recycle them.  One of my pet peeves this time of year...

Well, I was expecting that it would be Mark Miller versus everyone else. It was stacked because it was a UC class on IIRC urban planning (I came in 20 minutes late -- restroom called).

 

Terry Grundy's classes have turned more into College of Business dominated classes as they make for a convenient elective for them outside of their core classes.  The COB students are typically quite conservative...even in Grundy's class.

 

I'm in the class, and this year there are no students from the College of Business.  They changed the way they allow electives, apparently, and Grundy's class was left off the list in terms of contributing to any degree program.  There's only about 20 of us in there, 18 are from architecture or planning majors.

 

It's about a 50/50 split between conservatives and liberals.  That said, most people in there seem to oppose 9, even if they aren't pro-streetcar. 

 

As for the debate, I was there and didn't expect the "vote" at the end to go any different, despite the fact that in my opinion the debate was completely lopsided.  Mr. Lewis made a pretty convincing case that bad politics and bad government has made transit fail in the past, and keeping that in check is the reason for issue 9.  He also made some good points in terms of the confusion in the crowd and in general about the streetcar as an investment tool vs a transit network.  The rebuttal wasn't well planned and was pretty weak, to be honest.

 

It didn't change my mind - I still like the streetcar as an investment tool, and as the first steps to a transit network.  In general, I'm opposed to the government by referendum as well, as are a lot of people I've talked to that are both pro- and anti- streetcar.

 

 

"Much like the comparisons that the streetcar is somehow equatable to Hitler and Stalin."

 

Well, Stalin did build the Moscow subway, you know.  :-D