November 10, 200915 yr The costs of constructing a cut-and-cover tunnel are certainty much higher than what the city was building during this era: the Waldvogel Viaduct (1940) and other roadway improvements throughout the city. You are talking about digging massive trenches, encasing them in reinforced concrete, then burying them and laying down new utilities and tarmac on top (or parkspace), versus constructing a bridge and associated roadway improvements, constructing sidewalks and drainage systems... The inflationary costs -- the markedly higher prices for steel (reinforcing steel, for one) and concrete in the post-World War II inflation, driven by very high demands, led to the subway becoming cost prohibitive. Sure, it could have still been completed, but the new administration wasn't interested in that.
November 10, 200915 yr Once again, there is no particular reason why the costs for tunnels would have marginally increased over the costs for roads. The big difference is that improvements in automobile technology made roads more viable relative to rail than it had been before the war. Since individual car ownership was now in the reach of the rural population, and most states were still rural, and certainly most state governments over-represented rural interests, state funds for road building increased dramatically in the 20s. Now the money generated by cities could be harnessed by the rural areas for their development. Political will.
November 10, 200915 yr I think you mean post-WWI, not WWII. The subway construction was abandoned in 1925, which was 16 years before Pearl Harbor. The 1920's were a boom time for construction, not unlike the recent 2003-2008 building boom. As is typical for boom times, materials and labor costs skyrocket because contractors are in high demand, and they can pretty much name their own price. Ironically, if the city had waited about another decade to build the subway, there's a chance it actually would have been built during the Great Depression under the WPA program. (Chicago's first subway line was a WPA project, and New York City was aggressively building the IND subway system during the 30's.) Likewise, now is the perfect time to build the streetcar. Contractors are hungry, and construction costs are as low now as they'll ever be. If the city waits until the economy turns around, cost escalation will kick back into high gear, and we'll be looking at Subway 2.0.
November 10, 200915 yr The subway was built immediately following WWI, not WWII. The bond issue was passed just months before the US entered the war and work did not begin until January 1920 due to various lawsuits. The project was distracted and funds drained by more lawsuits during construction. The long Central Parkway tunnel was finished, sans track, in 1923, three years before the Republican machine was booted. If not for that change in the political seas, money would have been secured for completion of the line to Madison Rd. When work ceased in 1925, ROW had been secured to Madison Rd. in Oakley and all bridge and underpasses, and tunnels had been built from downtown to Norwood Waterworks Park (between Zumbiel Packaging and US Playing Card). What hadn't been budgeted for was rail, electrical systems, and rolling stock. Three surface and three subway stations had been built, but not any of the Norwood stations. Another big issue were Central Parkway property owners who worked in concert to prevent the line from being completed to Fountain Square. They wanted the line to terminate next to their properties and introduced the idea that Central Parkway would be the new center of downtown. But when it came time to estimate the cost of finishing the line, the extension to Fountain Square was always included in order to make that figure as imposing as possible.
November 10, 200915 yr Thanks for the correction, I was going through a bunch of articles (unrelated to Cincinnati) relating to the post-war booms and most of what I've found so far was relating to World War II.
November 10, 200915 yr Check out World Trade Since 1431, specifically Chapter 5: http://www.amazon.com/reader/0801851262?_encoding=UTF8&ref_=sib%5Fdp%5Fptu
November 10, 200915 yr Check out World Trade Since 1431, specifically Chapter 5: http://www.amazon.com/reader/0801851262?_encoding=UTF8&ref_=sib%5Fdp%5Fptu "The problem of Overland Transportation?" LOL This is like framing the history of medicine as "The problem with Early Antibiotics." Trains and canals were incredibly efficient compared to horse caravans, and still have a place in today's world.
November 10, 200915 yr ^You'll get a lot more out of that book if you read more than simply the title to one chapter.
November 10, 200915 yr We could get a lot more out of that book if it wasn't linked to Amazon's brief preview. Try Google Books: Chapter Five. No time to read it, but can you give a brief overview?
November 10, 200915 yr Author Streetcar Open House Tonight- 5-7pm at City Hall http://cincystreetcar.wordpress.com/2009/11/10/cincinnati-streetcar-open-house-tonight-5-7pm-at-city-hall/
November 10, 200915 yr ^ I keep wanting to attend some of these events, but they're always scheduled on nights when I have class. If anything interesting happens, I trust it will be posted here almost immediately. :-D
November 10, 200915 yr Author The 11th open house is next week: Wednesday, November 18 6:30-8:30 pm Price Hill Recreation Center 959 Hawthorne Ave 45205
November 10, 200915 yr ^You'll get a lot more out of that book if you read more than simply the title to one chapter. Trust me, I get it. Grade-capable rubber tires and route flexibility get us up out of the waterways so we can explode onto the petri dish of the uplands. Economy is just human activity, and human activity unimpeded is economic growth. Yet while we gained, there was clearly something that we lost when we exploded onto the landscape.
November 10, 200915 yr I'll be there tonight! "It's just fate, as usual, keeping its bargain and screwing us in the fine print..." - John Crichton
November 10, 200915 yr Trust me, I get it. Grade-capable rubber tires and route flexibility get us up out of the waterways so we can explode onto the petri dish of the uplands. Economy is just human activity, and human activity unimpeded is economic growth. Yet while we gained, there was clearly something that we lost when we exploded onto the landscape. There was no value judgment about something being better than something else, merely a reference toward my point that investing in roads after the First World War and beyond was a political choice (albeit one made possible by certain technological improvements) not the result of a perfectly impartial cost/benefit analysis that caused rail and specifically underground rail costs to jump in price relative to road construction costs.
November 10, 200915 yr Open House was really aimed at those with little to no knowledge of the city's proposal. I left after 5 minutes as the information is on the city website. "It's just fate, as usual, keeping its bargain and screwing us in the fine print..." - John Crichton
November 10, 200915 yr Trust me, I get it. Grade-capable rubber tires and route flexibility get us up out of the waterways so we can explode onto the petri dish of the uplands. Economy is just human activity, and human activity unimpeded is economic growth. Yet while we gained, there was clearly something that we lost when we exploded onto the landscape. There was no value judgment about something being better than something else, merely a reference toward my point that investing in roads after the First World War and beyond was a political choice (albeit one made possible by certain technological improvements) not the result of a perfectly impartial cost/benefit analysis that caused rail and specifically underground rail costs to jump in price relative to road construction costs. First of all, your posts are routinely intelligent and well-informed, and I was not judging you or this book's application to the topic of capital costs in the 1920's. I was just pointing out semantics. Specifically, from what I read of the chapter, the main point is that "overland" trade routes during the rail age sacrificed flexibility for speed, but you would only refer to this as a "problem" if your paradigm was that having both flexibility and speed are farther along some kind of continuum of human activity. Certainly in hindsight we know that there is such a thing as biting off more than you can chew.
November 11, 200915 yr I received a season-ticket-holder survey from the Bengals today. When asked about the tailgating experience I mentioned there were plenty of people providing tailgate parties (and therefore vehicles), and that I wanted public transportation options to the game -- namely the proposed streetcar. I hope Mike Brown hears me.
November 11, 200915 yr Author If you missed the first 10, there is always the 11th: Final Streetcar Open House Wednesday, November 18 6:30-8:30 pm Price Hill Recreation Center 959 Hawthorne Ave 45205 The 32 bus drops you off almost right at the rec center. It really is amazing how close Price Hill is to downtown. Extending the Union Terminal line to St. Lawrence Corner should be strongly considered, tying into a restored incline going to Queen's Tower. That might be the jump start Incline Square needs.
November 11, 200915 yr ^Agreed. But what Price Hill really needs is a direct connection to Clifton. Connecting Price Hill & the Fairmount valley to Clifton could really help turn those areas around.
November 11, 200915 yr ^Agree! Are their any examples of modern streetcar inclines? I'm having no luck finding any. Could Skoda's even climb Glenway, Warsaw, or Elberon?
November 11, 200915 yr The Skoda cars can do up to a 9% grade. The grades of those streets could be guesstimated on Google Earth by dividing the difference in elevation by the distance. Make sure your units are the same for all numbers. Example: Distance between Point A and Point B: 1/2 mile = 2640 feet Elevation at Point A: 607 feet Elevation at Point B: 524 feet (607-524) / 2640 = 0.031, or a 3.1% grade
November 11, 200915 yr Cincinnati's inclines took up to two minutes to make the climb. I don't know if any additional time was needed to load and unload. The Mt. Adams incline lasted long enough to carry PCC cars. The longer the streetcar, the bigger the incline vehicle would have to be. It's hard to imagine an incline big enough to carry a 90' rail vehicle. The capacity of the entire line would probably be limited by the incline. On the other hand, the incline would carry the toughest part of the load, and motor size on the streetcar could probably be reduced. Modern streetcars can go to about 8%. Cincinnati's Vine Street, Elberon, and Warsaw were modified specifically to carry streetcars. Auburn Avenue, Straight Street, Grand Ave, etc., are too steep.
November 12, 200915 yr Can anyone tell me what is the next step toward getting streetcar development started? Any word on stimulus moneys?
November 12, 200915 yr Can anyone tell me what is the next step toward getting streetcar development started? Any word on stimulus moneys? ^ Presumably in January, when federal stimulus awards are announced.
November 12, 200915 yr Author ^Most likely it will run on the right side of Elm. There may be the loss of about two parking spots at places where there is a stop, but otherwise parking will be unaffected.
November 16, 200915 yr City Talk Radio did a good piece on rail transit and the Cincinnati Streetcar last night. It really is a must hear if you're trying to educate someone on the streetcar project. The guests (John and ???) did a good job educating and refuting the skeptics. The only issue was that the program closed on a caller enumerating all the bad things about the old Cincinnati streetcars (bicycle tires stuck in rails, unsightly overhead wires, cars jumping tracks, etc...). No time was given to refute the long winded caller. "Someone is sitting in the shade today because someone planted a tree a long time ago." - Warren Buffett
November 16, 200915 yr Author 1. Bicycle Tires- They don't seem to have a problem 2. Unsightly over head wires- Cincinnati's Old Streetcars had two wires for no good reason. Modern streetcars have only a single overhead wire that is often lost in the city scape another wire picture 3. Actually the caller was talking about trolley poles coming off of the old streetcars. This isn't a concern because modern streetcars have adjustable pantographs that run under the wire, they can't fall off. [is is also why calling them "trolleys" is inaccurate] the pantograph is the black extension from the top, also more bicycling around streetcars and not very visible wires
November 16, 200915 yr Author City Talk Radio did a good piece on rail transit and the Cincinnati Streetcar last night. It really is a must hear if you're trying to educate someone on the streetcar project. The guests (John and ???) did a good job educating and refuting the skeptics. The only issue was that the program closed on a caller enumerating all the bad things about the old Cincinnati streetcars (bicycle tires stuck in rails, unsightly overhead wires, cars jumping tracks, etc...). No time was given to refute the long winded caller. I beleive the other guest was Brad Thomas of Cincystreetcar.com
November 16, 200915 yr Actually, bike tires can fall into the track but not "get stuck," and only if the rider is not paying attention. I saw a bicyclist crash in Munich because of that once. But seriously, anyone using this as an excuse to not build the streetcar is grasping. OH NOEZZ! the poor bicycle riders!!!
November 16, 200915 yr Road cyclists -- with very thin tire profiles, can easily slip into the track and be dismounted. If you are in your clips, it can be a recipe for some minor injuries at the least. There are areas in Cincinnati on the asphalt pavement that I have encountered issues with, in regards to linear gaps in deteriorating pavements where the joints separate due to water intrusion. It's not a common issue, but it is one that is quite real.
November 16, 200915 yr I know next to nothing about Streetcars and am certainly in favor of Cincy's plan. That said, I did see a documentary the other night about Monorails and they sure were harping on the fact that there are some legitimate safety concerns with Streetcars. The documentary (i want to say it was on the Travel Channel) gave some pretty surprising statistics IMO... but, of course, it was advocating for the use of Monorails so TIFWIW
November 16, 200915 yr I know next to nothing about Streetcars and am certainly in favor of Cincy's plan. That said, I did see a documentary the other night about Monorails and they sure were harping on the fact that there are some legitimate safety concerns with Streetcars. The documentary (i want to say it was on the Travel Channel) gave some pretty surprising statistics IMO... but, of course, it was advocating for the use of Monorails so TIFWIW And how many monorails do you see being built or planned these days as opposed to cities who want modern streetcars? I've been waiting on Jungle Jims to open their damn monorail since 1999!
November 16, 200915 yr ^anything system raised off the ground is very very expensive. And raising off the ground may serve one purpose (avoiding traffic) but hurt others such as the ease of use, accessibility and the whole support of the pedestrian sidewalk streetlife etc
November 16, 200915 yr The only thing that makes a monorail safer than a streetcar is the fact that it's grade-separated. In that regard, it's no different than an el or a subway. Monorails have been tried and discarded, as they were a futuristic effort to re-invent the wheel... They don't offer any advantages over conventional grade-separated steel wheels on steel rails, but they pose a number of technical hurdles such as how to handle switching between guideways (much more complicated costly than conventional rail switching), and the fact that since there's no uniform standard for monorail construction, each system is proprietary to a specific manufacturer. Thus, if a city hires Acme Corporation to build a monorail, that means the monorail uses proprietary Acme technology, and can only be maintained by Acme. And if Acme goes bankrupt ten years later, the city is then left to scramble to find replacement parts and qualified technicians. With conventional rail technology, just about any manufacturer's railcars can usually operate on anybody's tracks.
November 16, 200915 yr ^-----"just about any manufacturer's railcars can usually operate on anybody's tracks." This could be a disadvantage, depending on who you are. In the old days, streetcars as well as steam railroads were intentionally made with different gauges in order to PREVENT the competition from using the rails. No one can connect to Disney's monorail. Disney has complete control over it's own system. Just sayin'. :-D
November 16, 200915 yr "I've sold monorails to Brockway, Ogdenville, and North Haverbrook. And, by gum, it put them on the map. Well, sir, there's nothing on earth like a genuine, bona fide, electrified, six-car monorail." -Lyle Langley "It's just fate, as usual, keeping its bargain and screwing us in the fine print..." - John Crichton
November 17, 200915 yr Road cyclists -- with very thin tire profiles, can easily slip into the track and be dismounted. If you are in your clips, it can be a recipe for some minor injuries at the least. There are areas in Cincinnati on the asphalt pavement that I have encountered issues with, in regards to linear gaps in deteriorating pavements where the joints separate due to water intrusion. It's not a common issue, but it is one that is quite real. Potholes and grates serve up the same dangers.
November 17, 200915 yr I saw that documentary on the monorails too, it was well done and fairly informative, but tended to harp a lot on grade level transit pretty unfairly, and it is just not a concept that would fit in most cities frankly. Kudos on the Lyle Langley Simpsons' reference....What's the word?.........MONORAIL!!!!
November 17, 200915 yr Author The 11th and final Streetcar Open House will be held tomorrow: Wednesday, November 18 6:30-8:30 pm Price Hill Recreation Center 959 Hawthorne Ave 45205
November 17, 200915 yr The 11th and final Streetcar Open House will be held tomorrow: Wednesday, November 18 6:30-8:30 pm Price Hill Recreation Center 959 Hawthorne Ave 45205 Still wondering why it's being held in Price Hill, when the neighborhood won't even have a connection to even the next three phases of the streetcar. I'd also like to see a bit more effort put into the streetcar banners. I'm not really knocking your efforts (I think it's great that you take time at all to do them.) Maybe it's the designer in me, but typeface choice, placement, and spacing really go a long way. I guess the giant S throws me off a bit too. But do believe that I thank you for putting in the time.
November 17, 200915 yr Author The 11th and final Streetcar Open House will be held tomorrow: Wednesday, November 18 6:30-8:30 pm Price Hill Recreation Center 959 Hawthorne Ave 45205 Still wondering why it's being held in Price Hill, when the neighborhood won't even have a connection to even the next three phases of the streetcar. I'd also like to see a bit more effort put into the streetcar banners. I'm not really knocking your efforts (I think it's great that you take time at all to do them.) Maybe it's the designer in me, but typeface choice, placement, and spacing really go a long way. I guess the giant S throws me off a bit too. But do believe that I thank you for putting in the time. Feel free to spruce it up, I can send you the file if you like.
November 17, 200915 yr Author The 11th and final Streetcar Open House will be held tomorrow: Wednesday, November 18 6:30-8:30 pm Price Hill Recreation Center 959 Hawthorne Ave 45205 Still wondering why it's being held in Price Hill, when the neighborhood won't even have a connection to even the next three phases of the streetcar. They are holding the Open Houses throughout the city. The entire city will be the beneficiaries of the increased revenues from property and income taxes paid by the new residents along the route, and the entire city benefits from the increased funding to CPS, $2 million additionally per year, that the streetcar will bring.
November 17, 200915 yr ^I can in a couple days. I somehow purchased the wrong version of Adobe CS4. So I need my Illustrator installed first. Sure, I could do that.
November 17, 200915 yr The 11th and final Streetcar Open House will be held tomorrow: Wednesday, November 18 6:30-8:30 pm Price Hill Recreation Center 959 Hawthorne Ave 45205 Still wondering why it's being held in Price Hill, when the neighborhood won't even have a connection to even the next three phases of the streetcar. They've been held all over the city... For anyone planning on attending, you can get the same Open House info here: http://www.cincinnati-oh.gov/noncms/projects/streetcar/ "It's just fate, as usual, keeping its bargain and screwing us in the fine print..." - John Crichton
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