These rare events happen.  When I was living in New York this past summer, part of the roof of a subway station on the 1 train fell in, and that part of the route was closed for a few weeks.  They worked around it by providing a free shuttle bus. 

 

How often is it we have a fire like this? Most large buildings would be sprinklered. Wonder if this building's sprinkler was turned off.

 

How often is it we have a fire like this? Most newer or renovated large buildings that aren't empty and probably unheated would be sprinklered.

 

There, fixed that for ya.  But you're right, it's an infrequent occurrence.

http://cincinnati.bizjournals.com/cincinnati/blog/2010/01/things_looking_good_for_streetcar.html

 

Chris Eilerman, special projects coordinator in the city managers office, has said he expects to recieve a grant in the next few days that would cover a "significant" portion of the streetcar cost.

 

Anyone else have any other info on this???

 

Huge news if true! And its nice to hear something reasonably quantifiable compared to the oft-used "coming soon."

Great news!

Given that it was an old building, it's likely that it may not have even had a sprinkler system. When renovations are complete, though, it's almost certain that it will.

 

Regarding the "what-if" scenario that a large building near the streetcar route catches fire: Shit happens, and transit agencies will adapt accordingly until service can be safely returned to normal. Happens all the time in other cities. In fact, just this morning four subway lines in downtown Brooklyn were shut down because of a fire in an underground transformer vault. But the situation is now under control, and subway service has been restored. Life goes on.

 

Such incidents aren't limited to rail-based transit, either; image the chaos that would ensue if some trucker with an oversize trailer destroys an overpass on I-75, or if a landslide takes out a part of Columbia Parkway, or if a tow of barges breaks loose and damages an abutment on the Brent Spence Bridge during rush hour. Then watch how fast people start begging for rail transit.

^Or if some apartment fire ends up closing down both Eastern Avenue and Columbia Parkway at the same time, which I remember happening last year.

 

Since the fire was north of Findlay St., and the route is yet to be determined, and there's a good chance that the route will connect Elm/Race with uptown via Findlay, in the alternate universe where the streetcar was built and operation before this fire there is a good chance it wouldn't have made a difference.  Also, it rains donuts in this reality.

^Or if some apartment fire ends up closing down both Eastern Avenue and Columbia Parkway at the same time, which I remember happening last year.

 

Since the fire was north of Findlay St., and the route is yet to be determined, and there's a good chance that the route will connect Elm/Race with uptown via Findlay, in the alternate universe where the streetcar was built and operation before this fire there is a good chance it wouldn't have made a difference. Also, it rains donuts in this reality.

 

Also, in that alternate universe where the streetcar is operational the building would have been occupied and the fire likely extinguished quickly.

Regarding rail disruptions, even the Germans aren't immune.  At every subway and light rail stop are signs which direct people where to go to get "replacement buses" in the event of a substantial disruption. 

 

Schienenersatzverkehr (rail-replacement traffic)

 

And when a streetcar disruption occurs buses show up to ferry people around, and they follow streetcar routes as best as possible (some streetcar tracks are not embedded in road pavement).  On their destination signs, these buses show the streetcar route number preceded by the letter 'E' (German for replacement).  I would assume Metro has spare buses to serve such a purpose.  It gets interesting if Metro doesn't operate the streetcar (is that still the case that it might not?).

It gets interesting if Metro doesn't operate the streetcar (is that still the case that it might not?).

 

I was surprised to find out that the streetcars in Portland are not managed by the same people who manage the light rail and buses.  However, despite their different operating entities and some animosity towards each other, they work together to handle disruptions in service with bus contracts.

I rode the subway every day for a year in Boston.  Zero service disruptions.  Once or twice a train was held up for 10 minutes and I remember a train stopping between stations and the lights going out for 10 seconds but that's it. 

 

I think all these worries about service disruptions are being had by those who haven't lived in a city with modern rail transit.  It's pretty obvious if you see them in person that the Portland Streetcars are robust machines and nobody I've spoken to has ever heard of one of them being towed back to the shops. 

Just returned from Denver and Minneapolis. Streetcar and Light Rail provided flawless transportation for me.

I ride daily in Minneapolis, glad you found it as easy to use as I do.

 

Just so everyone knows that the crazies aren't ALL in Cincinnati, Minneapolis is trying to build a line connecting downtown minneapolis to downtown St Paul, and have multiple groups trying to disrupt the plans (one of which is a minority group, a la smitherman). 

 

 

So does anyone know when the funding will be announced? I keep hearing soon, but is there a federal deadline of sorts, or is everyone just sort of waiting around for any day now?

So does anyone know when the funding will be announced? I keep hearing soon, but is there a federal deadline of sorts, or is everyone just sort of waiting around for any day now?

 

TIGER deadline is Feb 17, 2010

Ok, great. Thanks.

Sometimes I wish as part of Stimulus, the Feds would partner with states/counties/cities to create systems for sustainable/livable communities for the communities that want them.  Add to that the idea of greater energy independence through the use of nuclear power and better transit options nationwide (real HSR) and you'd have a popular program that would put people to work, have tangible results and modernize America for decades.

 

Ray LaHood's "livability" comment is great but its only a toe in the water when we should be taking the plunge.

 

Hope springs eternal...for only so long.

TIGER is only one of the four pools of money we are applying for

So, has Cincinnati already sent in their applications for TIGER funds and other sources?  Has anything been heard regarding when the funding will be announced?

Sorry if I wasn't totally clear.  The TIGER application is in, the deadline for announcing the awards is Feb 17.  TRAC application is in.  Urban Circulators application deadline in Feb 8 I beleive.

I ride daily in Minneapolis, glad you found it as easy to use as I do.

 

Just so everyone knows that the crazies aren't ALL in Cincinnati, Minneapolis is trying to build a line connecting downtown minneapolis to downtown St Paul, and have multiple groups trying to disrupt the plans (one of which is a minority group, a la smitherman).

 

 

 

Well, isn't the main issue there with U of M?

Unlikely that Federal streetcar grant to Cincinnati will be announced today on mayor's trip to Washington.

 

http://news.cincinnati.com/article/20100120/NEWS0108/1210373/Mallory++mayors+to+meet+with+Obama

The Cincinnati Streetcar, winner of CityBeat's "Best Use of Public Funds" in 2009, has been nominated for the 2010 "Best Use of Public Funds" category. You can vote here: http://www.citybeat.com/cincinnati/best-of-21-best-of-cincinnati-2010.html

(in the Urban Life Section, the 8th category from the bottom of the form)

 

Unlikely that Federal streetcar grant to Cincinnati will be announced today on mayor's trip to Washington.

 

http://news.cincinnati.com/article/20100120/NEWS0108/1210373/Mallory++mayors+to+meet+with+Obama

 

Darn, I'm getting impatient!  I want to know!

Wouldn't it be awesome if the 3C trains and the Cincinnati Streetcar each got stimulus funds!?!

Wouldn't it be awesome if the 3C trains and the Cincinnati Streetcar each got stimulus funds!?!

That would be something I would support as a fairly libertarian minded person.

 

In fact, that would be amazing!

Here is a map of the development that has happened in Downtown and Uptown near the line since 2005, planned developments, and projects under construction. Did I miss anything?

<table style="width:auto;"><tr><td><a href="http://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/iSOYSMiN81kgIGGXOQ1g4Q?feat=embedwebsite"><img src="http://lh5.ggpht.com/_hdch2vG_qks/S1t57Co5LhI/AAAAAAAAAvU/AfJ3-CpOjGc/s800/Development%20Map.jpg" /></a></td></tr><tr><td style="font-family:arial,sans-serif; font-size:11px; text-align:right">From <a href="http://picasaweb.google.com/BradleyWilliamThomas/Maps?feat=embedwebsite">Maps</a></td></tr></table>

What's being planned up near Vine and Calhoun? Isn't that the site of the skanky-looking strip mall with the Kroger and Walgreen's?

yes, they are going to redo that whole strip (which is why we have the map showing the streetcar running right through the middle of a store)

Nice... That shopping center completely sucks the life out of an otherwise vibrant neighborhood. It will be nice to see that area redone. Hopefully they'll get a nicer Kroger store while they're at it.

we forgot 5th and race; it has been corrected

2600 vine added; 3000 vine moved to the correct side of the street.

^Wow, those Short Vine redevelopments on the 2600 block don't have any qualms about tearing down entire blocks to build something that already exists in the general vicinity.  It's almost like they'd prefer to simply move UC to a cornfield in Liberty Township.  Let's hope that development never happens.

I wonder if the streetcar is a big success if an eastern extension could be added. 

 

Start with an incline up to and through Mt. Adams, maybe.

an eastern extention would probably go up gilbert to peebles corner and then east to desales, obryonville and hyde park square.  Or you could go east from main and central parkway, hit the casino and then take eggleston down to the oasis line (serving the riverfront development and sawyer point) and then head out east along the oasis line to the East End, Columbia Tusculum and Lunken where you could have a park and ride or tie in with the 3C if they have a station there.

Yeah.... from what I understand, a Streetcar Incline up to Mt. Adams would be cost prohibitive. There is a bus line that goes up there, though, so maybe a streetcar could replace the bus route? Not really sure though.

an eastern extention would probably go up gilbert to peebles corner and then east to desales, obryonville and hyde park square. Or you could go east from main and central parkway, hit the casino and then take eggleston down to the oasis line (serving the riverfront development and sawyer point) and then head out east along the oasis line to the East End, Columbia Tusculum and Lunken where you could have a park and ride or tie in with the 3C if they have a station there.

I like the sound of that, especially the latter idea.

 

The incline might be 'cost-prohibitive' right now but it might be a feasible idea in the future if Cincinnati truly transforms.

    "There is a bus line that goes up there, though, so maybe a streetcar could replace the bus route? Not really sure though."

 

  The present bus line replaced a previous streetcar line.

"There is a bus line that goes up there, though, so maybe a streetcar could replace the bus route? Not really sure though."

 

  The present bus line replaced a previous streetcar line.

 

I  bet you ridership dropped after the bus replaced the streetcar and ridership will increase if the streetcar replaces the bus.

Of course, most bus routes today were former streetcar routes.  Some even have the same route number, like 69 to Madisonville. 

 

    It is documented that when a streetcar line was converted to motor coach, the passengers invariably preferred the streetcars. Nevertheless, the decision was made to switch to motor coaches. This happened all over America.

 

  Today's bus system in Cincinnati carries about 10% of the ridership that Cincinnati's historic streetcar system did.

TANK's #11 route through Fort Thomas also carries the old Green Line streetcar route number, and largely follows the same route. It would be interesting to see how many other bus numbers and routes are from earlier streetcar routes.

Well I do have the streetcar route numbers on my map at http://homepage.mac.com/jjakucyk/Transit1/map.html (at least the route numbers as they were in 1925).  You can't always tell what the actual route is closer to downtown since many overlap, but the turn-by-turn description and names are at http://homepage.mac.com/jjakucyk/Transit1/mapinfo.html 

There is a plan out there that has the reconnection.  Since that time Kroger has value-engineered out the reconnection in favor of a contiguous surface lot.  This has not gone over well with Corryville neighborhood leaders and at this point I'm not sure anything is certain.  If a force (i.e. streetcar) comes in it could very well tip the scales in one direction.

 

I think Kroger has a lease on the UP property until 2027, so it will be pretty tough to break.  The best way to get a streetcar to reconnect through Vine will be to 1) show Kroger how much traffic it would generate by pointing to the  success of Phase 1, and 2) working with Kroger to come up with a more urban-friendly grocery store model.  It's been done in NYC, DC and Atlanta (by Kroger in ATL).  There's no reason it can't work here.  They probably get a lot of value out of the UP location because it always seems packed and it still looks like crap.

 

an eastern extention would probably go up gilbert to peebles corner and then east to Desales, obryonville and hyde park square. Or you could go east from main and central parkway, hit the casino and then take eggleston down to the oasis line (serving the riverfront development and sawyer point) and then head out east along the oasis line to the East End, Columbia Tusculum and Lunken where you could have a park and ride or tie in with the 3C if they have a station there.

 

I think that without a doubt, an extention from DeSales Corner past O'Bryonville to Edwards and Madison, thence through HP Square, down Linwood to MtL Square, down Delta to Columbia Square is the preferred eastern route for the Streetcar.  You connect four historic business districts (stretching that definition a bit for Columbia Square, but still) and TWO potential ROW's (Oasis on Eastern and Wasson on Madison & Edwards) that are just begging for light rail in the future.

What you just described is 4 miles of track, or a project costing between $150-250 million, this on top of getting the streetcar to DeSales Corner.  A branch from Hyde Park Square to Oakley Square would be another mile, so another $50 million.

 

Such a project would require an equal investment in other neighborhoods, and so pretty quickly the price of citywide rail tops $1 billion.  There's not an obvious best way to serve Westwood and Price Hill, and getting out to Bond Hill and Pleasant Ridge is beyond the range of a streetcar line's usefulness and inevitably will involve St. Bernard and/or Norwood. 

 

 

getting out to Bond Hill and Pleasant Ridge is beyond the range of a streetcar line's usefulness and inevitably will involve St. Bernard and/or Norwood.

 

To clarify, such a line would be beyond the range of a streetcar line's usefulness at connecting the farthest two destinations along the line (light rail would work better for that) but the streetcar would still be very usefull for circulating people along the line (for example Pleasant Ridge to Norwood to Evanston to Avondale to Walnut Hills to Downtown) any of those smaller trips along the line would still work.

The best way to serve the westside is to ensure that planning underway now or about to get started includes the possibility for extending rail there. At a minimum, this means that the replacement of the Western Hills viaduct -- not that many years from now -- is made wide and strong enough to carry light rail.

 

I don't see streetcars getting to Pleasant Ridge. Few people would want to stand up for that long. Of course, there are some seats, but to me, that seems like a pretty long distance to travel by streetcar. Hyde Park would be a stretch. But probably doable.

 

After the initial build, I can't imagine there could be a better streetcar line than the Oasis Line. It's like a linear Pearl District. The Wasson Line is definitely a great candidate for light rail.

 

My guess is that I-71 light rail is on hold indefinitely until Norwood and Deer Park come around. Too bad - both of these communities are really set up for it.

 

Once the reconstruction of I-75 is underway starting late this year, people will be begging for light rail there. I wouldn't be surprised to see light rail in the I-75 and Eastern Corridors on the ballot in 2012.

 

 

What you just described is 4 miles of track, or a project costing between $150-250 million, this on top of getting the streetcar to DeSales Corner. A branch from Hyde Park Square to Oakley Square would be another mile, so another $50 million.

 

Such a project would require an equal investment in other neighborhoods, and so pretty quickly the price of citywide rail tops $1 billion. There's not an obvious best way to serve Westwood and Price Hill, and getting out to Bond Hill and Pleasant Ridge is beyond the range of a streetcar line's usefulness and inevitably will involve St. Bernard and/or Norwood.

 

Just describing what I considered to be the best possible route to & through the Eastside at the limits of the feasibility area for the Streetcar.

 

I think the best route through the Westside is across W. 8th Street up Warsaw or Elberon to  Glenway/Warsaw/Quebec intersection, down Quebec to Queen City, and Queen City across the WH Viaduct to connect to West End/OTR.  Unfortunately, topography, population size and ROI for both East and West Sides are not equal, so you'd have to balance it out with direct bus service between Price Hill and a future Uptown version of Government Square, and or promised improvements a la 3CDC in OTR.

 

Two things are clear regarding the Streetcar- 1) it needs to have a certain amount of independence (particularly regarding revenue) so that every routing decision doesn't have to be a massive political clusterfuck, and 2) there has to be an area that is understood as being the high density area that the streetcar is going to service.  It can't go to PRidge or Westwood, because that's not what it is supposed to do.  Likewise, new investments in the Streetcar Area have to be streetcar focused, not parking lots with new developments around to give you a reason to go park there like most of what I've seen planned for Short Vine.

 

The last thing that a supermarket wants to do is provide free parking for neighboring businesses. That is why almost all supermarkets are self-contained developments.

 

Beechmont Bigg's.  Anderson Kroger.  Hyde Park Kroger.  Very popular locations.

UrbanCincy.com is reporting today that Cincinnati City Council has officially approved 775K for continuing its plans for the Streetcar Project.  This is good news to see they are still serious about making this happen, even without official word on fed/state grants. 

Lets keep our fingers crossed for grant/stimulus money!

That's not good news in comparison to what they originally proposed.

 

http://news.cincinnati.com/article/20100125/NEWS01/1260317/City-scales-back-initial-streetcar-spending

 

"Cincinnati City Council on Monday scaled down a plan to spend $3.5 million for the first phase of a streetcar line, voting instead to spend $775,000."

 

It is important to note that the $775k will be enough to keep us in the round of grants and funding for the project, and we should be glad it was not outright cut down to $0.