The takeover of the car was apparently just about as immediate as the appearance of cell phones.  Within five years they went from barely existing to being everywhere.  As incredible as it might sound, in the late 1910's there were proposals to build underground "subways" for parking cars beneath 4th and 6th streets.  The cruel practice of tearing down small buildings for surface parking hadn't yet begun and the city's first underground parking garage had yet to be built.  What's hilarious though is there were claims by "businessmen" that the real subway couldn't be extended into downtown due to soil conditions, but then they supported these garages beneath the streets.

 

Then there was a very serious proposal not to build Central Parkway above the Rapid Transit Loop subway and instead have all that space be surface parking.  In fact after the subway was completed but before Central Parkway was paved the space between Eggleston and Plum St. was used for just that purpose.  There's a great photo of the parked cars in Alan Singer's 2003 subway book.   

 

That's not good news in comparison to what they originally proposed.

 

http://news.cincinnati.com/article/20100125/NEWS01/1260317/City-scales-back-initial-streetcar-spending

 

"Cincinnati City Council on Monday scaled down a plan to spend $3.5 million for the first phase of a streetcar line, voting instead to spend $775,000."

 

It is important to note that the $775k will be enough to keep us in the round of grants and funding for the project, and we should be glad it was not outright cut down to $0.

 

It's not bad news.  They are investing more than the $775k eventually, the rest is still earmarked for the streetcar.  They're just giving themselves an out in case the feds don't come through.  The $775k is a starter, a show of faith.  And it gets the work started.  The environmental studies can begin with this and the project is underway.

It's important to remember there are four potential pools of money that can fund the project:

 

1. TIGER

2. TRAC

3. Urban Circulators

4. Small Starts/New Starts

That's not good news in comparison to what they originally proposed.

 

http://news.cincinnati.com/article/20100125/NEWS01/1260317/City-scales-back-initial-streetcar-spending

 

"Cincinnati City Council on Monday scaled down a plan to spend $3.5 million for the first phase of a streetcar line, voting instead to spend $775,000."

 

It is important to note that the $775k will be enough to keep us in the round of grants and funding for the project, and we should be glad it was not outright cut down to $0.

 

It's not bad news.  They are investing more than the $775k eventually, the rest is still earmarked for the streetcar.  They're just giving themselves an out in case the feds don't come through.  The $775k is a starter, a show of faith.  And it gets the work started.  The environmental studies can begin with this and the project is underway.

 

You're right osogato...and that was the gist of what I wrote on UrbanCincy.  Of course the Enquirer chose to run a negative story on what took place.  The Enquirer also failed to mention what exactly the vote meant to the project, its timeline, and the overall impact on the project.  We'll hear back about most of the grant money before the environmental studies are complete, so should we get some chunks of money from those pools you can expect for City Council to rubber stamp the rest of that $3.5M.

Urban grocery store discussion has been moved here:

http://www.urbanohio.com/forum2/index.php/topic,10268.0.html

Wait you're telling me that there has been an urban grocery thread THIS WHOLE TIME?

 

BAD PEOPLE! BAD!

For the east side, I think north on Woodburn to Xavier University is the smarter first move from Desales Corner than out on Madison.  The half mile between Fairfield and the O'Bryonville business district would be close to non-revenue track.  Woodburn is densely populated on both sides north to Xavier. 

 

After reaching Xavier, the Wasson Rd. line could be built to light rail standards but the modern streetcars could use it as far as Hyde Park until that line has a light rail connection to downtown and out to Milford.  From Xavier it's 2 miles to Paxton or 3 to Marburg. 

^good idea.

 

Also here is a post highlighting the Connections the Streetcar will have to our cross-town buses: http://cincystreetcar.wordpress.com/2010/01/27/the-cincinnati-streetcar-will-be-great-for-metro-riders/

Looks like President Obama will annnouce the grants for high-speed rail tomorrow in Florida. Tampa to Orlando seems to be the test-bed for America's first true high-speed rail line and may soak up a lot of the money.

 

What will be interesting to see is whether the Florida legislature accepts the grant. I can imagine this becoming very political down there.

^just checked the population density on that route and it was higher than I thought: http://www.census.gov/dmd/www/pdf/512popdn.pdf

 

Also Tampa and Orlando are closer than I though as well.

^just checked the population density on that route and it was higher than I thought: http://www.census.gov/dmd/www/pdf/512popdn.pdf

 

If the Cincinnati-Dayton and Columbus counties were to connect with a couple more red density counties then it would almost be comparable to Chicago-Milwaukee.

^keep in mind that red is only 250 people per square mile.

 

 

^just checked the population density on that route and it was higher than I thought: http://www.census.gov/dmd/www/pdf/512popdn.pdf

 

If the Cincinnati-Dayton and Columbus counties were to connect with a couple more red density counties then it would almost be comparable to Chicago-Milwaukee.

 

You do realize that the entire population of Ohio fits into Chicago-Milwaukee...

Small business owners excited about Cincinnati Streetcar, and are getting word that Cincinnati is a lead candidate for federal money:

 

http://www.wlwt.com/video/22307218/

We've mentioned the similarities between Cincy and Portland before.  Here is a chart showing the comparative size of their 20 largest buildings.

Small business owners excited about Cincinnati Streetcar, and are getting word that Cincinnati is a lead candidate for federal money:

 

http://www.wlwt.com/video/22307218/

 

 

Now's the Time to Build the Cincinnati Streetcar

http://cincystreetcar.wordpress.com/2010/01/29/now%E2%80%99s-the-time-to-build-the-cincinnati-streetcar/

  "Here is a chart showing the comparative size of their 20 largest buildings."

 

  You said LARGEST and then showed a graph of TALLEST.  The largest office building in the world in terms of floor area is the Pentagon, which I think is only 5 or so stories tall.  :-D

 

   

 

   

 

 

Now's the Time to Build the Cincinnati Streetcar

http://cincystreetcar.wordpress.com/2010/01/29/now%E2%80%99s-the-time-to-build-the-cincinnati-streetcar/

Great post. Now is the time!

"Not only am I warming to the idea of a streetcar, I'm kinda gettin' hot.  I'm kinda gettin' hot and bothered by the thought of a streetcar downtown.  With the casino and all of this other stuff.  It's almost like all of these things are coming together for us." 

 

-- Scott Sloan, 700WLW, yesterday in the interview with John Schneider.

 

Can someone please remind me where I am living?

 

^I love that quote.

When people start dreaming big, and acting in-concert to make that dream a reality, many of the naysayers will come on board as well. 

Transit is safer than driving, in both absolute and per mile terms- http://cincystreetcar.wordpress.com/2010/02/02/save-american-lives-build-transit/

Some sort of funding announcement to finally get this thing officially off the ground (or should I say in the ground) would be a nice way to alleviate the sour taste in my mouth following the 3C news.

 

Actually, 3C will be nice, but you can take heart that the streetcar is probably even more important. If people fully capitalize on this opportunity, it can really change all kinds of things about the city, and it can change people's minds and hearts.

Unfortunately, the current plans for the streetcar won't serve the 3C line; Metro bus routes will, unless the 3C line terminates at the Riverfront Transit Center -- which the Superliners cannot physically fit under.

Unfortunately, the current plans for the streetcar won't serve the 3C line; Metro bus routes will, unless the 3C line terminates at the Riverfront Transit Center -- which the Superliners cannot physically fit under.

 

There are plans to extend it to Union Terminal if the 3C terminates there.  You also have the added benefit of connecting City West to Downtown and Uptown, potentially restarting the "Gateway Park[?]" development around the terminal and serving the Museum Center.

Correct, but not what is being requested for all of Phase 1. Would it be accurate to say it would be for Phase 2, and that any potential streetcar plan extending to CUT would be potentially accelerated if we were to receive high-speed rail (or any rail with large numbers)?

As a "transit nexus" does anyone else feel like CUT kind of sucks?  Last time I was in Cincinnati I re-remembered how far it was from anything.  Maybe with regular train service and a paradigm shift the neighborhood would become vibrant, but for now would it not be better to focus on service to downtown? 

 

 

Are the Superliners really the likely option for the 3-C trains though?  It seems a bit like overkill to me.  IF trains could make it to the transit center, then they would be well served by the phase 1 streetcar.  That's a great connection, if it can be done.

I think it's okay for Amtrak service.  It would be terrible for light rail, since that is supposed to serve daily commuters and, as you pointed out, CUT is too far from downtown.  But Amtrak travelers could easily catch a streetcar to their hotel, office, or other destination.  You also have the advantage of keeping the larger trains away from the hustle and bustle of a downtown area.

As a "transit nexus" does anyone else feel like CUT kind of sucks?  Last time I was in Cincinnati I re-remembered how far it was from anything.  Maybe with regular train service and a paradigm shift the neighborhood would become vibrant, but for now would it not be better to focus on service to downtown? 

 

The reason CUT seems so cut off from the rest of the city is because of the highway that went right through the neighborhood in the 1950s.  When the terminal was built in the 30s, I75 wasn't there and a lot of people still lived there, so it wasn't such a bad location at all.  Now that we've cut the neighborhoods in half with I 75, the location kind of sucks, I have to agree with you there.  Connecting it with the streetcar could really help though.

I think you're right that the 3 C service should be first focused on downtown and connecting it with phase 1 of the streetcar.  However, I just don't see that happening.  I think it would be cost prohibitive in these early stages (there's currently no passenger rail lines actually there.)

As a "transit nexus" does anyone else feel like CUT kind of sucks?  Last time I was in Cincinnati I re-remembered how far it was from anything.  Maybe with regular train service and a paradigm shift the neighborhood would become vibrant, but for now would it not be better to focus on service to downtown? 

 

You're right, but it's a lot better than Sharonville.  While it would likely not be a short-term project, reopening the former CH&D on the west side of the Mill Creek Valley would allow passenger trains to bypass all the freight yards completely. They could take a route to the downtown transit center over tracks that are right now, for all intents and purposes, abandoned.  The only downside is that while the necessary tracks all exist to within a few hundred feet of the transit center, they'd need to be significantly rebuilt.  I have no idea what sort of a price tag that would entail.

Correct, but not what is being requested for all of Phase 1. Would it be accurate to say it would be for Phase 2, and that any potential streetcar plan extending to CUT would be potentially accelerated if we were to receive high-speed rail (or any rail with large numbers)?

 

Phase 2 will most likely happen wherever someone steps up to fund the route.  If Nky interests want an extension there, and can pay for it, then an extension across the river might happen next to create an Nky circulator and thus create a larger urban core loop of sorts.  But if Price Hill interests were able to secure money for an extension there that could happen next, or if say Brad Gilbert does indeed want an east/west route running through the basin from CUT to Broadway Commins then that could be next.

 

The reason CUT seems so cut off from the rest of the city is because of the highway that went right through the neighborhood in the 1950s.  When the terminal was built in the 30s, I75 wasn't there and a lot of people still lived there, so it wasn't such a bad location at all.  Now that we've cut the neighborhoods in half with I 75, the location kind of sucks, I have to agree with you there.

 

I-75 doesn't help the situation (although it does actually make a quick drive by taxi or bus from CUT to downtown easier than it would've been in the past), but highway or not, CUT just as far away from downtown as when it was built.  Union Terminal is really the first of the urban renewal projects that started clearing out the West End.  It was already on the border of a slum and a grungy industrial area.  Now it's just a slightly less grungy but still industrial area.  It was not particularly vibrant, and it was always too far away from downtown to really have a meaningful dialogue with the center of the city.  If Cincinnati was 3 or 4 times bigger than it is, then the distance might not matter, but as it is, it can't participate in the urban environment. 

Baltimore - 1.6 miles Penn Station to inner harbor

Washington D.C. - 1.2 miles Union Station to Chinatown

Cincinnati - 1.7 miles Union Terminal to Fountain Square

 

 

I'm guessing there's a second streetcar route from CUT to Lunken Airport via Eggleston.

@BDRUF: How about minutes on public transit? 

 

Unlike Union Terminal, the area around Union Station (DC) isn't a desolate wasteland.  It's quite nice actually; I used to live there, and there are plenty of things to do around there that have nothing to do with catching a train (Postal Museum, shops at Union Station, Cap City Brewing, the Capitol, Capitol Hill neighborhood, etc.), but these things feed of each other (transportation services and the businesses/attractions in the area). 

 

If the streetcar is about creating vibrant places people want to go to, it should be tied it in with inter-city transportation ASAP and in a location that maximizes potential for (re)development.  Does anyone see the area between the railyard and I-75 becoming the next hot destination?  That's a half-serious question -- I think I know the answer but if anyone disagrees, this is a messageboard after all. 

 

 

Both Baltimore and D.C's train stations came before the mass transit was built to serve them. Much of the NoMa area (North of Mass Ave.) is not all that desirable, especially along NY ave. There is a lot that is being redeveloped there right now, but isn't that what we would be looking to do with the West End/ Queensgate by reinvesting in it? Right now my company is doing the planning for NoMa, and I understand the complexities of Washington compared to Cincy. It could take twice as long or longer to see the redevelopment results in Cincy as it will for NoMa, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't try. Union Terminal could be a huge asset for that area, and the biggest draw back or asset could be that it is pretty much a blank slate. Just because it is an undesirable area now doesn't mean it has to stay that way. Unfortunately for Cincy its residents aren't as passionate about urban living as they are on the east coast.

Does anyone see the area between the railyard and I-75 becoming the next hot destination?

 

If CUT becomes a major passenger rail station once again and it's connected to the rest of the basin with a modern streetcar then all of a sudden that corridor between CUT and Downtown via OTR becomes VERY desirable.  CUT already has a redevelopment plan on the books to build on the parking lots that currently exist out front...this could very much be accelerated if and when the aforementioned items become reality.

Does anyone see the area between the railyard and I-75 becoming the next hot destination?

 

If CUT becomes a major passenger rail station once again and it's connected to the rest of the basin with a modern streetcar then all of a sudden that corridor between CUT and Downtown via OTR becomes VERY desirable. CUT already has a redevelopment plan on the books to build on the parking lots that currently exist out front...this could very much be accelerated if and when the aforementioned items become reality.

^I was just typing the exact response as Rando.  CUT matters when it comes to rail of all kinds.  I don't know about I-75 and the "Gateway" mentioned earlier but I do know Cincinnati's future is inextricably linked to OTR's future.

 

If CUT becomes a major passenger rail station once again and it's connected to the rest of the basin with a modern streetcar then all of a sudden that corridor between CUT and Downtown via OTR becomes VERY desirable.  CUT already has a redevelopment plan on the books to build on the parking lots that currently exist out front...this could very much be accelerated if and when the aforementioned items become reality.

 

That's good news.  I'm not quite as against CUT as I was earlier this evening.  Thanks!

 

btw, the Sharonville terminus thing still sucks. 

Of course, having a streetcar connection to Union Terminal would be great.  It's pathetic that it never got that connection when it was built in the first place, despite the close proximity to several routes on Western Avenue. 

As a "transit nexus" does anyone else feel like CUT kind of sucks? Last time I was in Cincinnati I re-remembered how far it was from anything. Maybe with regular train service and a paradigm shift the neighborhood would become vibrant, but for now would it not be better to focus on service to downtown?

I understand what you mean, but I think CUT is the best possible place for 3C to go. It would ensure an extension of the streetcar route, and ensure regular travel upon it. The CBD doesn't need the potential development that a new line and new people-traffic into OTR could bring. Leave the Transit Center for light rail!

 

It does feel like a bit of an island there, but as an entrance to the city it has some advantages. The main one is just being a sexy little piece of architecture. That can go a long way in taking people's minds off the fact that they're not right downtown.

 

Another idea to alleviate the isolation feeling: if they get a free ride to Fountain Square (or they could get off somewhere in between) with the purchase of their 3C ticket, I think no one would be bothered by the situation.

 

  Read Carl Condit's book "The Railroad and the City" for a list of everything that is wrong with CUT as a good location for a terminal. CUT was built to optimize conditions for the railroads, not for the passengers.

 

  Read Carl Condit's book "The Railroad and the City" for a list of everything that is wrong with CUT as a good location for a terminal. CUT was built to optimize conditions for the railroads, not for the passengers.

 

Exactly.  It's a fantastic book that gives a great account of how the railroad terminal pattern of the city developed.  Some of the earlier union station plans were quite ambitious, but one of the best proposals had the station being basically where the transit center is now.  It's interesting how history sometimes comes full circle.

 

^---"I have no idea what sort of a price tag that would entail."

 

    Count on $1 million per mile for new track on existing right-of-way. Any new bridges, signals, etc., will add to that cost. In the case of the former CH&D on the west side of the Mill Creek, the I-74 crossing would have to be rebuilt as well as the part through Northside and a bridge over the West Fork Channel.

 

 

Unlike Union Terminal, the area around Union Station (DC) isn't a desolate wasteland.  It's quite nice actually; I used to live there, and there are plenty of things to do around there that have nothing to do with catching a train (Postal Museum, shops at Union Station, Cap City Brewing, the Capitol, Capitol Hill neighborhood, etc.), but these things feed of each other (transportation services and the businesses/attractions in the area). 

 

Plus, you can get your picture taken next to the G Unit street sign.

 

For those who don't know DC's steet grid, no, they didn't name a street after G-Unit. It's actually is the proper name for G Street in the center of town.

 

    ^----"Walking from Union Terminal to the backside of Music Hall doesn't take long at all."

 

    You underestimate the effect of distance on normal people. Sure, UrbanOhioans love to walk. Most people do not. Just look at how much effort people make to park their cars close to downtown.

   

Well, also, anyone using a long-distance passenger train is likely to be carrying some luggage too.  That's not something easily hauled by foot, even if it has wheels. 

 

  It's an awfully long walk from the front door of Cincinnati Union Terminal just to the street! The CUT passenger station is a wonderful piece of architecture but it was a failure from an urban standpoint. Carl Condit argues that the prior arrangement of 7 smaller passenger terminals scattered around the periphery of the downtown core was a better arrangement for the users.

Does anyone see the area between the railyard and I-75 becoming the next hot destination?

 

If CUT becomes a major passenger rail station once again and it's connected to the rest of the basin with a modern streetcar then all of a sudden that corridor between CUT and Downtown via OTR becomes VERY desirable.  CUT already has a redevelopment plan on the books to build on the parking lots that currently exist out front...this could very much be accelerated if and when the aforementioned items become reality.

^I was just typing the exact response as Rando.  CUT matters when it comes to rail of all kinds.  I don't know about I-75 and the "Gateway" mentioned earlier but I do know Cincinnati's future is inextricably linked to OTR's future.

 

I doubt we'd get any resistance if a developer wanted to annihilate a large swath of land in Queensgate.  No buildings in that area are worth saving, except CUT and the old Hudy plant.  If saving OTR structures and streetcar development forces developers with their "Large Block Experiments" to go west near CUT,...........  So be it! I'd sure welcome that!