February 17, 201015 yr It appears that most of the projects have significant local matching funds and/or tax dollars. I think it would be very helpful for Cincy to figure out that part of the equation. The FEDs want to see a true financial commitment from the local community.
February 17, 201015 yr Author It appears that most of the projects have significant local matching funds and/or tax dollars. I think it would be very helpful for Cincy to figure out that part of the equation. The FEDs want to see a true financial commitment from the local community. we have at least 61 million in local funds.
February 17, 201015 yr Do you think a streetcar will help Cincinnati? Vote here: http://www.wlwt.com/money/22589966/detail.html
February 17, 201015 yr And vote YES at: http://view.email.bizjournals.com/?j=fe4e1677726203787d13&m=feec10747c6d0d&ls=fdf217767c67057a74117372&l=fe95157374600c7b76&s=fdf615717d6102757514737c&jb=ffcf14&ju=fe3916737567047e711477&r=0 "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
February 17, 201015 yr Do you think a streetcar will help Cincinnati? Vote here: http://www.wlwt.com/money/22589966/detail.html The question is worded "Do you think Cincinnati needs a streetcar?" Which is very different from if it would help the city. I think Cincinnati will survive without a streetcar even though I think it will benefit it.
February 17, 201015 yr So, as it currently stands, Detroit got $25 million for a light rail line along Woodward Ave. (which by the way is going to do wonders for that city, I've lived there and I can see that project making a huge impact on the city as a whole, Woodward Ave. is a major artery that starts downtown and goes directly through the center of detroit all the way up to its richest, most prosperous suburbs) So, now that Detroit is getting a modern day rail system, doesn't that make Cincinnati the largest metropolitan area in the country without any form of rail transit? I remember hearing that we were #2 just behind Detroit during the whole Issue 9 campaign? Boy, won't that be a pathetic statistic to throw around!
February 17, 201015 yr So, as it currently stands, Detroit got $25 million for a light rail line along Woodward Ave. (which by the way is going to do wonders for that city, I've lived there and I can see that project making a huge impact on the city as a whole, Woodward Ave. is a major artery that starts downtown and goes directly through the center of detroit all the way up to its richest, most prosperous suburbs) So, now that Detroit is getting a modern day rail system, doesn't that make Cincinnati the largest metropolitan area in the country without any form of rail transit? I remember hearing that we were #2 just behind Detroit during the whole Issue 9 campaign? Boy, won't that be a pathetic statistic to throw around! I believe Detroit's Woodward line will also bring the commuters from the Ann Arbor line to downtown. Maybe the People Mover will actually be used as it was intended.
February 17, 201015 yr San Antonio, which has a streetcar project, is now the largest metro without rail. We're second. This is a temporary setback. We'll get there.
February 17, 201015 yr It appears that most of the projects have significant local matching funds and/or tax dollars. I think it would be very helpful for Cincy to figure out that part of the equation. The FEDs want to see a true financial commitment from the local community. we have at least 61 million in local funds. Sorry, I guess I missed when those funds were announced. Can you list them again.
February 17, 201015 yr I believe Detroit's Woodward line will also bring the commuters from the Ann Arbor line to downtown. Maybe the People Mover will actually be used as it was intended. Well, I personally doubt the people mover will ever be truly useful. It was done completely wrong in many ways, but one of the worst things about it is that first, its elevated off the street and difficult to even figure out where to get on. But, mostly because of its route. Its simply a large loop around the city with many, many blocks in between the lines. So, it really has a lot of design flaws that prevent it from ever functioning as a useable transportation system.
February 17, 201015 yr I love how the people over at COAST are gloating about this. COAST has never been shy about rooting for Cincinnati's failure.
February 17, 201015 yr Message from Mayor Mallory: Good afternoon – As you may have heard, the Cincinnati Streetcar project was not one of the projects that received federal funding today from the TIGER grant. I want to assure you that this does not hurt the Streetcar project. We have applied for funding from several different state and federal sources. Today’s announcement simply means that we did not receive this particular grant. In fact, out of 61 projects to receive funding today, only four streetcar projects were selected. The federal government announced $1.5 billion in grants today. That is from over $56 billion in applications. Our project is simply one of many good projects that will be competing for the other funding that is still available. And, let me be clear, we are confident that our Streetcar project is one of the best projects in the country. One of the pots of money still available is the Urban Circulator grant program, which is intended for streetcar-type projects. The reality is that after today’s announcement, there are four fewer projects competing with us for that funding. There is going to be a lot written and said about today’s announcement and what it means for the future of the Streetcar project. I want you reassure you that despite the chatter, the Streetcar project is still on target and is going to lead to new businesses and job creation in Cincinnati. I want to thank you for your support. Together we are going to continue to move our City forward with a bold vision for the future. Mayor Mark Mallory [emphasis added]
February 17, 201015 yr So, as it currently stands, Detroit got $25 million for a light rail line along Woodward Ave. (which by the way is going to do wonders for that city, I've lived there and I can see that project making a huge impact on the city as a whole, Woodward Ave. is a major artery that starts downtown and goes directly through the center of detroit all the way up to its richest, most prosperous suburbs) So, now that Detroit is getting a modern day rail system, doesn't that make Cincinnati the largest metropolitan area in the country without any form of rail transit? I remember hearing that we were #2 just behind Detroit during the whole Issue 9 campaign? Boy, won't that be a pathetic statistic to throw around! Orlando is still the largest. Their Light Rail defeat by the county commission was a surprising and terrible blow to its supporters, much more so than anything that's ever happened in Cincy.
February 17, 201015 yr ^Oh come on - the recipients of those grants are going to apply for more money for extensions. Talk about trying to find some good news!
February 17, 201015 yr As for this news today, I was personally shocked, and my intuition is that some political shenanigans pulled Cincinnati off of the list in the last month or so. Let's look at the strengths of the initiative: -Connects largest employment centers of a city with no fixed transit -Activates an enormous underutilized historic district -Championed by a black democratic mayor, benefits diverse neighborhoods, under a black democratic presidency -A swing state I know Cincy's plan wasn't bulletproof, but no plan ever is. Does it assassinate the project? Nah. But this was a high profile process, and I think this was political, perhaps the result of some exchange for something else.
February 17, 201015 yr ^Oh come on - the recipients of those grants are going to apply for more money for extensions. Talk about trying to find some good news! Have any extensions started their multi-year environmental assessments or preliminary engineering? If not, they can't receive federal money under NEPA. "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
February 17, 201015 yr Has Cincinnati started multi-year environmental assessments or preliminary engineering?
February 17, 201015 yr Mayor Mallory must be taking this as a big blow since he personally lobbied Obama for this.
February 17, 201015 yr This is from upthread and spirals into a larger discussion on regional transit plans but here it is anyway. IN: Indianapolis Ped and Bike Improvements: $20.5 million Related from the Urbanophile: http://www.urbanophile.com/2010/02/12/midwest-miscellany-27/ Cincinnati (and every other metro in Ohio) put together a plan like this one from Indianapolis. Indianapolis Unveils Transportation Plan http://www.indystar.com/article/20100210/LOCAL18/2100389/Is-mass-transit-in-for-major-makeover http://www.thetransportpolitic.com/2010/02/10/major-transportation-plan-for-indianapolis-could-link-region-with-light-and-commuter-rail/
February 17, 201015 yr Someone asked this earlier, and I'm curious because I can't find it either, and the question has not been answered. But is there an official document (online) that outlines the route(s), the costs and the feasibility, and the status of each phase in terms of preparation of an EIS, preliminary engineering, route selection, financing, etc.? http://www.cincinnati-oh.gov/city/downloads/city_pdf17754.pdf That's from 2007, and it only shows a "studied" route through OTR, and "potential" extensions to UC, Union Terminal and elsewhere. I can only find documents that describe the route through OTR that is the same as the studied route from 2007, but nothing about a selected route to uptown. I've heard discussions regarding a Clifton or Vine route, and comments against and for both of those, but nothing official. -- This is a substantially updated article to what was posted earlier, No fed funds for Cincinnati streetcars By Barry M. Horstman, Cincinnati Enquirer, February 17, 2010 Despite seeing Cincinnati’s streetcar plan left behind at the station Wednesday, city leaders vowed that their failure to secure any of the $1.5 billion in federal funds awarded to dozens of transit projects nationwide would not prevent the idea from moving forward. Having optimistically pointed for months to Wednesday’s release of federal stimulus grants as an opportunity to lock up nearly half of the project’s $128 million first phase, City Hall leaders did their best to mask their disappointment over the substantial setback. ... The fact that the city came up empty, some streetcar supporters inside and outside City Hall conceded, leaves the project facing an uncertain future. “It’s a $60 million setback – let’s just be honest about that,” said Councilman Jeff Berding, a streetcar supporter who cast it as also a major political setback for Mallory.
February 18, 201015 yr Presumably the final decision will be made by the city, with input from Parsons Brinkerhoff and the rest of the project team. Most of the discussion here on UO is merely speculation. Even if somebody here had some inside information, they probably wouldn't be at liberty to discuss it publicly until an official announcement is made.
February 18, 201015 yr Well, I'm hoping that there are some public EIS or preliminary engineering documents available, or at the least, a solidified route selection for phase 1a and phase 1b. I can ask ODOT, for instance, for those documents and more for any construction project they are currently working on. The same (should) be said for this -- which is what I'm basically requesting.
February 18, 201015 yr Boise???? Ridiculous!!!!! Now this is when Stan Chesly should be suing the GOV.
February 18, 201015 yr Well, I'm hoping that there are some public EIS or preliminary engineering documents available, or at the least, a solidified route selection for phase 1a and phase 1b. I can ask ODOT, for instance, for those documents and more for any construction project they are currently working on. The same (should) be said for this -- which is what I'm basically requesting. I'm surprised an EIS isn't readily available. One of the conditions of NEPA is to have all EIS documents available for public inspection and, in this day and age, that means putting them on the internet. If an EIS wasn't finished for the streetcar, then that would explain why it didn't get federalfunding. But I doubt city officials would do that, so I'm wondering what's up. "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
February 18, 201015 yr The feds are obviously holding off on announcing the streetcar funding until I've moved back to town next month, and I can join the celebration at Arnold's.
February 18, 201015 yr ^ Actually, I had Arnold's book for the celebration tonight. Maybe next month.
February 18, 201015 yr ^ Actually, I had Arnold's book for the celebration tonight. Maybe next month. :'(
February 18, 201015 yr Well, I've had a chance to cool down and think about things a little since this mornings announcement and I can say that I am still optimistic for the Cincinnati Streetcar project. Though we didn't get what we were hoping for from the TIGER funds we weren't the only ones who missed out. The funds were a lot more competitive then I originally thought. There's still a chance at 75 million worth of grants out there and any portion of that would at least keep the project alive. So, until we are denied those grants I'm not going to give up on the idea. Does anyone have any idea when the other grants are expected to be announced?
February 18, 201015 yr Someone asked this earlier, and I'm curious because I can't find it either, and the question has not been answered. But is there an official document (online) that outlines the route(s), the costs and the feasibility, and the status of each phase in terms of preparation of an EIS, preliminary engineering, route selection, financing, etc.? http://www.cincinnati-oh.gov/city/downloads/city_pdf17754.pdf That's from 2007, and it only shows a "studied" route through OTR, and "potential" extensions to UC, Union Terminal and elsewhere. I can only find documents that describe the route through OTR that is the same as the studied route from 2007, but nothing about a selected route to uptown. I've heard discussions regarding a Clifton or Vine route, and comments against and for both of those, but nothing official. Whoa. Partially answered my question. From the Cincinnati Enquirer on January 25, 2010 (still going through my backlog of articles): "City administrators say the $775,000 will pay for an environmental impact study, financial planning and some of the initial engineering work." This is for Phase 1. Am I correct to assume that the EIS and preliminary planning has not been completed for Phase 1? The other streetcar and rail proposals that won TIGER funding today were "shovel ready," whereas this isn't.
February 18, 201015 yr I would put my entire planning career on the line (actually, I will, since I'm dumping the profession for medicine) in saying that this was political far more than it was a technicality on the NEPA process or the "competitiveness" of the application pool. I can only assume that Mallory/Dohoney aren't stupid; they wouldn't aggressively pursue funding for this if there were some blatant hole in the application.
February 18, 201015 yr Typical Cincinnati politics. What do you mean? The feds didn't approve. This: "City administrators say the $775,000 will pay for an environmental impact study, financial planning and some of the initial engineering work."
February 18, 201015 yr Cincinnati's metro has roughly 100,000 more than either San Antonio or Orlando. This might change in the 2010 census, but nevertheless Cincinnati is currently #2 behind Detroit for not having rail. Also, I doubt the Woodward line will significantly change Detroit. It won't change that place any more than Buffalo's one line changed Buffalo. Detroit is a total disaster and much of the historic building stock along Woodward is long gone. >We don't even have a route finalized There is not a finalized route because nobody knows what the budget's going to be. The Banks > Findlay Market route is finished. The Uptown route depends on how much funding is available. I personally believe that a Phase 1 just between the riverfront and Findlay Market, as originally planned, can be successful.
February 18, 201015 yr ^"There is not a finalized route because nobody knows what the budget's going to be. The Banks > Findlay Market route is finished. The Uptown route depends on how much funding is available." This is exactly why I'm so miffed with Roxanne Qualls for forcing the Uptown Connector as Phase 1. We could be building the Findlay -> Banks line right now and applying for extensions if it weren't for her "leadership". "Someone is sitting in the shade today because someone planted a tree a long time ago." - Warren Buffett
February 18, 201015 yr Well planning for the uptown route is exactly what you're talking about so far as mapping out a future route. Also, there is no point in drawing out a citywide system if there is no steady funding source in place by which a reasonable timeline can be devised. The big challenge is that an extensive system can't be built without raising taxes, but as hard of a sell a new tax is for countywide rail is, I think a tax for streetcars is even tougher. Light rail tends to be commuter-oriented whereas streetcars are much better neighborhood builders. Countywide light rail would not reduce car ownership as much per track-mile as would streetcars, and city streetcars are very much about getting people to live most of their lives in the city and not buy things in surrounding municipalities.
February 18, 201015 yr I'm hoping Plan Cincinnati could be that "grand vision." But I'm not sure if it wants to be that "big."
February 18, 201015 yr Metro moves was just too big. It wasn't a workable plan. In my humble opinion, the Over-the-Rhine loop was a workable plan. When City Council approved the Over-the-Rhine loop with an extention to U.C., they made the plan unworkable and effectively reduced the chances that the project will be built.
February 18, 201015 yr No no, I'm saying Metro Moves is a big plan to get people excited, but each component is technically a different "project" to be implemented as demand and funds dictate. It's the kind of regional planning the Cincinnati area needs more of. Even if few parts of it actually get done (like Burnham's Chicago plan), it provides a framework for the projects that are built, so they aren't done in isolation or without broader forethought.
February 18, 201015 yr I used to be an fan of large-scale, comprehensive plans, but the more I learn, the more I see that so many of them are failures.
February 18, 201015 yr Well planning for the uptown route is exactly what you're talking about so far as mapping out a future route. Also, there is no point in drawing out a citywide system if there is no steady funding source in place by which a reasonable timeline can be devised. I still believe there needs to be some sort of collaborative vision. The Plat of Philadelphia, NYC's Commissioners Plan of 1811, the Chicago Plan. All grand enterprises. Did they all completely come to fruition as originally drawn up? No, but their ambitious goals enabled each of these cities to grow in a successful and well managed manor. I know I'm being an idealist dreamer because it all comes down to time and money but just once I'd like to see Cincinnati be bold. Cincinnati will never be bold as you wish for it to be. If the people were more progressive, took more risks, it would not be Cincinnati. It's in the region's DNA. Part of what makes it what it is.
February 19, 201015 yr The big challenge is that an extensive system can't be built without raising taxes, but as hard of a sell a new tax is for countywide rail is, I think a tax for streetcars is even tougher. Light rail tends to be commuter-oriented whereas streetcars are much better neighborhood builders. Countywide light rail would not reduce car ownership as much per track-mile as would streetcars, and city streetcars are very much about getting people to live most of their lives in the city and not buy things in surrounding municipalities. It would be nice if we could use federal any federal transpo money for any area project, so we could stop the widening of I-75 and devote the funds to this.
February 19, 201015 yr I think 75 certainly should be widened, in its current state. It's a broken pipe. In a perfect world, the interstates would never have penetrated the beltway at all, we would have a nice transit system, and the area that 75 demolished would be a thriving historic neighborhood. Unfortunately for us, that perfect world is called Western Europe.
February 19, 201015 yr There are plenty of neighborhoods demolished or split by expressways in Western Europe.
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