I meant, "is there a project schedule?" not a route schedule. The project schedule will have a notice to proceed with mapping and design, an anticipated bid date and start of construction date, and an anticipated finish date. Some project schedules are more detailed than others, but at a bare minimum it has to have a starting date. A single completion date is not a schedule. To my knowledge, there is no project schedule.

 

    I apreciate listing the links. However, I have already seen those. A feasibility study or a map with lines on it is a start, but if that's the best we have, we still don't have a plan.

 

    Assuming that this project gets built eventually, we are still a long way off. In my humble opinion, fall of 2012 is very agreesive.

^ Do you have much professional experience with planning? It sounds like you're coming more from a construction background. I'm not sure how much farther they can go until they pull together more of the funding. A project like this differs from something like LRT in two big ways. It doesn't have one dedicated capital funding source like a tax referendum and it's not as complicated. They've identified a preferred route, it's more or less in public ROW. It's entirely under city control. It's not that long. I don't think we are gonna see a grand plan signed and sealed, just various engineering documents (which the general public might never see) until it's time to build. 2012 is not outside the realm of possibility.   

There are rumblings about a small streetcar system in Dayton.  If one comes to Dayton before Cincinnati that would hilarious.

If it's small and simple enough, I imagine it could be done pretty quickly and simply.  Just look at the Kenosha streetcar loop. 

^That's what I think they're going for. A circulator from UD around downtown/Oregon and back.

There are rumblings about a small streetcar system in Dayton.  If one comes to Dayton before Cincinnati that would hilarious.

Not to worry. The rumblings are nothing more than that. We have neither the money nor the political leadership to champion anything like a streetcar in Dayton- at least not for quite some time.

 

I'm looking forward to riding the streetcar in Cincy. :-D 

There are rumblings about a small streetcar system in Dayton. If one comes to Dayton before Cincinnati that would hilarious.

Not to worry. The rumblings are nothing more than that. We have neither the money nor the political leadership to champion anything like a streetcar in Dayton.

 

Maybe not, but you do still have trolleybuses.  That's no small feat in and of itself, and one that deserves a lot more praise than it currently receives. 

If Dayton were to get it first, I would suspect it's due to Cincy's topographical challenges. Cincy seems to have issues with all these rail projects, due to the hills. Expense, complicated engineering, etc. One of Cincy's greatest assets, which also happens to be one of its greatest challenges.

Maybe not, but you do still have trolleybuses.  That's no small feat in and of itself, and one that deserves a lot more praise than it currently receives. 

Yea, no argument there. Part of my frustration when I see the trolley buses is knowing that the old streetcar tracks are probably still buried in the pavement where the trolley buses run.

Maybe not, but you do still have trolleybuses.  That's no small feat in and of itself, and one that deserves a lot more praise than it currently receives. 

Yea, no argument there. Part of my frustration when I see the trolley buses is knowing that the old streetcar tracks are probably still buried in the pavement where the trolley buses run.

 

True, but that was the case here in Cincinnati as well.  However, even the trolleybuses were scrapped by 1965, so all we have left are some of the metal poles along the roads.  Nearly all the tracks are still in place under an inch or two of asphalt. 

 

About streetcars and topography ... all three cities that have modern streetcars first built lines in the flat parts of their cities. Only after several years of operation did Portland extend the line down the steep hill to the South Waterfront. Seattle is just now debating, with little success, how to add a branch to Seattle University on First Hill, either by tunnel or by a tortured surface alignment. And in seven years, Tacoma hasn't extended from its current waterfront alignment up into the neighborhoods above downtown.

 

I remember when UC was trying to figure out how to get light rail to the main campus and the Medical Center ten years ago. They retained ZGF Architects out of Portland, which had done a lot of the planning and station design there, and UC invited several of us to come to campus to listen to ZGF's presentation. Paddy Tillett, who today might be regarded as the Dean of Portland's architectural community said, "If you want to build light rail, you need to build it straight and flat."

 

 

>To my knowledge, there is no project schedule.

 

Seriously, this sounds like some John Cranley nonsense. 

 

There is significant funding -- tens of millions -- appropriated to it, a mayor and majority of council in favor of it, and other leadership that has not wavered in its support.  The people leading this effort are are smarter, more honest, and greater in number than those working to defeat it, and presently there is no coordinated and funded effort to defeat it. 

 

If this project does not break ground in the next few years or never happens it won't be because it was a bad idea, it will be because of this national financial crisis caused by an array of idiots who have nothing to do with the Cincinnati Streetcar. 

 

Maybe not, but you do still have trolleybuses.  That's no small feat in and of itself, and one that deserves a lot more praise than it currently receives. 

Yea, no argument there. Part of my frustration when I see the trolley buses is knowing that the old streetcar tracks are probably still buried in the pavement where the trolley buses run.

Last year when they were re-paving West Clifton Ave, whenever they would tear up a section of pavement you could see the cobbletone street with the streetcar rails in it from when it was originally laid...much like what is in front of Music Hall. Pretty neat. I guess this particular route up west clifton didn't need an incline?

The inclines, which were powered by steam, predated electric streetcars by 10-15 years.  The cable car lines were also powered by steam.  These cable car lines were converted to electricity around 1898 (except Sycamore St., which was too steep), after electric streetcar lines had been built that used the inclines.  That's why there came to be, for a few years, streetcars on inclines fairly close to streetcars on streets. I believe that around 1920 the streetcars were off of the inclines except for Mt. Adams, and the inclines were disassembled fairly rapidly thereafter, except the Mt. Adams Incline, which remained until around 1950.   

Jmeck is right. The Price Hill Incline never moved streetcars either. Only people.

 

And with the mt adams incline there was a concerted effort by the group/company that owned the Mt Adams incline and Ida St. Bridge to stop streetcar service from starting on Gilbert. Prior to electric streetcar service on Gilbert Avenue, the Mt. Adams incline was the gateway to the eastern neighborhoods.

23.6% of Cincinnati's Households do not have an automobile.  Among African Americans, that number rises to 36.7%. 

 

There is clearly a need for improved public transportation in this city.

Fun Fact of the Day:

 

When the the first Phase of the Portland Streetcar opened in 2001, there were 15,849 people living on the line. 50.9% of which had no automobile.

 

Along the Cincinnati Streetcar route (UC to Downtown) there are 20,038 people, 49.13% of which have no automobile.

 

 

 

[all data 2000 Census]

Jmeck is right. The Price Hill Incline never moved streetcars either. Only people.

 

And with the mt adams incline there was a concerted effort by the group/company that owned the Mt Adams incline and Ida St. Bridge to stop streetcar service from starting on Gilbert. Prior to electric streetcar service on Gilbert Avenue, the Mt. Adams incline was the gateway to the eastern neighborhoods.

 

The Price Hill, and most of the others, carried horse drawn wagons, carriages, etc. as well.  I just started writing a general history of the city's streetcar history, including the early horsecars, cable cars, and inclines last night, and I read about the skirmish between the Gilbert Avenue and Mt. Adams interests.  As it was, a horsecar line was built up Gilbert in the 1870s as competition to the Mt. Adams Incline, but it was woefully unsuccessful due to the difficulty of the climb for horses.  In 1880, George Kerper, owner of the Mt. Adams Incline tried to buy it, but was unsuccessful.  John Kilgour obtained it a month later as part of the merger that formed the Cincinnati Street Railway Company.  Kilgour wanted to convert it to cable car operation, but Kerper threatened to build a competing cable car line up Vine and east on McMillan.  After a bunch of fighting, Kerper bought the Gilbert Avenue horsecar line from Kilgour, but at the same time Kilgour's Cincinnati Street Railway Company was buying up certificates for Kerper's Mt. Adams & Eden Park Inclined Railway Company, with plans for an eventual merger.  Confusing eh?  It was Kerper who built the Walnut Hills Cable Road up Gilbert in 1885, which became more of a necessity than a draining competitor as Walnut Hills grew.  Even though the horsecars took 30 minutes to climb the hill, it was still carrying 10,000 people per day when the decisions was made to convert to cable car operations.  While Kerper's company was the first in Cincinnati to introduce electric streetcars in 1888, they didn't convert the Walnut Hills Cable Road until 1898.

Fun Fact of the Day:

 

When the the first Phase of the Portland Streetcar opened in 2001, there were 15,849 people living on the line. 50.9% of which had no automobile.

 

Along the Cincinnati Streetcar route (UC to Downtown) there are 20,038 people, 49.13% of which have no automobile.

 

 

 

[all data 2000 Census]

 

Great information!

I wonder what the 2010 data will show for Portland?

the Pearl district (which is roughly co-terminus with PDX Census tracts 50 and 51) had a population of about 4,302 in 2000.  According to the executive director of the Pearl District Business Association, the population is currently estimated at 14,000.

^---"To my knowledge, there is no project schedule."

 

"Seriously, this sounds like some John Cranley nonsense."

 

I'm just being honest. If there is a schedule, I don't know about it.

 

The only thing I know is that according to John Schneider, the streetcar is supposed to be running in fall of 2012. He refers to the City of Cincinnati.

 

The City of Cincinnati publishes completion dates for projects all the time. Back around 1994, the Enquirer reported that the City of Cincinnati's Department of Transportation number one priority project was to replace the Waldvogal Viaduct. It still hasn't been replaced. The city lists funds in the Capital Improvemtments Plan for projects that have never gotten built. I don't mean to blame the fine people who work for the city - there's a situation in place that encourages games like this. So, judging from experience, just becase the city says that the project will be complete in 2012 does not mean that there is an active plan to actually do it. 

 

    The construction drawings for this project will likely include hundreds of sheets. It is no small task to prepare the drawings, and this process could take 2 years, and that doesn't even include any construction. 

 

    I realize that there are people on this board who might have inside information. I also realize that they might not want to share it on this board. Still, it would make me feel better to know that someone is actually working on this project other than fishing for funding. I can deal with the fact that this project has strong support even though we don't have a real plan yet. I don't feel as comfortable with a finish date without having a real start date.

Well then just tell yourself this: Portland built their line in 25 months. Cincinnati hired the project team, not the planning team but the design-build team, in 2009 and has a grant from Duke to move the utilities. Its not outside the realm of possibility for them to line up enough funding by the end of 2010.

 

That might mean 2012 operation, or 2013. or 2014. In all honesty, an asteroid could hit Cincinnati and push it back to 2100; anything could happen. But that does not mean the end of 2012 is an impossible or irresponsible prediction.

 

  Just wondering,

 

  Does the 25 months count planning, design, right-of-way acquisition, construction, and testing? Or just construction? And was this their first line?

 

  I admit that I don't know much about the vehicles, but I assume it takes some time between order and delivery. Cincinnati could order the vehicles early, before construction starts, for delivery in 2012, but I don't know what the duration is.

 

    In my humble opinion, the finish date of 2012 is very aggressive. Certainly it's not impossible, but optimistic, especially if the design work hasn't even started yet.

 

 

Why do you care so much that someone said "2012"?  Trying to pinpoint a completion date right now isn't worth wasting any time over.  As has been stated, there has already been significant preliminary work done in redesigning the utilities, and the job of relocating these utilities is minimal compared to a light rail line, let alone a subway. We are not having a completely new type of vehicle created or any new technology whatsoever.  The biggest delay in having the vehicles manufactured would be if some other city or cities orders a dozen or more at the same time.

 

The way these things get built quickly is if funding for design and construction and operations are in place before anything starts.  They take indefinite periods of time if design, construction, and operation are drawn from separate funding sources or phases.   

 

 

 

 

 

^ I think I see the Cincy streetcar slipping off one of those rocks into the sea.

 

Well, at least we might get a few weeks' use out of it, before reality 'splodes.

With the new 15m grant, how much money do we now have for the streetcar?  How much more is needed and where are we looking to get this money at the current moment?  Also, will they start building this before they get all the money they need to build both phases or will they start with phase 1?   

With the new 15m grant, how much money do we now have for the streetcar?  How much more is needed and where are we looking to get this money at the current moment?  Also, will they start building this before they get all the money they need to build both phases or will they start with phase 1?   

 

If I've seen the figures correctly, I'd estimate that there is $70-$80 million now lined up. This leaves around $25-35 million to secure. Someone who knows the accurate numbers should be able to confirm this though.

Its my understanding that we needed about 50-60 million in grants or private contributions to get the project off the ground.  We now have 15 million in grants so that leaves a good 35-45 million more needed.  Assuming we get the 25 million urban circulators grant that will put us within about 10 million needed to get the project off the ground.

My hope is that when the funding gap is that close we'll start to see private contributors kick in, but who knows?

Part III- "The ROI on this streetcar project can already be counted today"

http://cincystreetcar.wordpress.com/2010/03/25/part-iii-the-roi-on-this-streetcar-project-can-already-be-counted-today/

The Xavier University "Philosophy, Politics and the Public" honors program can be found at http://www.xavier.edu/honors.

 

Students say streetcar would be a selling point for city

By Barry M. Horstman, Cincinnati Enquirer, March 28, 2010

 

If it becomes a reality within the next few years, the proposed Cincinnati streetcar system could alter the city in a number of ways - including whether 17 Xavier University students decide to stay here after graduation.

 

Enrolled in Xavier's "Philosophy, Politics and the Public" honors program, the students have immersed themselves this academic year in issues related to public transit in general and the streetcar in particular.

 

--

 

Please don't look at the 460 comments.

 

"I remember when I was 18-22 years old I knew everything. If the city is serious about creating jobs they will offer tax abatements to companies in other cities and convince private sector jobs to relocate to cincy. Also thx westside for giving us steve driehaus, fat chicks, ugly mustangs & rising poverty rates."

Sherman's right. The comments -- like the one Sherman copied above -- are beyond the pale. The only good thing is, I suspect lots of people, including Enquirer editors, read these comments. The worst of the worst lives somewhere in Tennessee.

 

In the aggregate, they illustrate the irrationality, innumeracy and occasional illiteracy of some, certainly not all, of the opponents. Their writings are helping to make our case. Write on!

Please don't look at the 460 comments.

 

"I remember when I was 18-22 years old I knew everything. If the city is serious about creating jobs they will offer tax abatements to companies in other cities and convince private sector jobs to relocate to cincy. Also thx westside for giving us steve driehaus, fat chicks, ugly mustangs & rising poverty rates."

^That last sentence is pretty hilarious/noxious.  No offense to the westside (don't know too much about it either way), but that can't hurt too much if it's not true.

The Westside is a cultural experience.

 

  Cultural experience? Please tell.

One of the reasons Cincinnati has such a strong culture is that it's pretty insular and resistant to outside ideas. The Westside takes this characteristic to a different level. It's a strongly traditionalist city-within-a-city. Westsiders are more likely to be Cincinnati lifers.

 

  West siders are more likely to be west side lifers.

^ Yeah, I was actually going to say that, but omitted it. I don't know if it's a fear of the outside world or what, but Westsiders don't seem to be all that curious about life outside their four walls. Makes you wonder what it took for their ancestors to leave their homeland.

I'm an east-sider, 100%. But every time I've gone to the west side, it struck me as the most non-descript, blue-collar part of Cincinnati. Most blue-collar sides of cities are fairly insular and traditional.

 

To me, honestly, the old east-side like Terrace Park, Mariemont and Indian Hill are far, farrrrr more incestuous and insular. Truly, it should be the east side that is scolded for being closed-minded, because they perpetuate conservative Cincinnati politics despite their wealth and sophistication. This is the district that gives us people like Lindner, Portman and Schmidt. Just because they have the money to fly to London for Christmas doesn't mean they bring the ideas back with them.

West Side/East Side stereotypes have nothing to do with the streetcar. 

Thanks xumelanie. ;-) I was thinking the same thing.

 

On a more related note, I'm taking a Topical Studio at UC offered by the Industrial Design Program and hosted of the Niehoff Studio by the Livewell Cooperative. We've have two classes so far this quarter and the class is composed mainly of industrial design students, a couple of graphic, fashion, and digital design students, 4 or 5 urban planning students and one each finance, business, and economics students. The professors are industrial design people. I can tell already that some aspects of this class are going to be frustrating. The topic is the Cincinnati Streetcar and fixed-rail transit in general.

 

Today, we were going around the room and everyone had to bring up conversation points for future discussion and work. The planners all brought up things like headways, TOD, fare collection issues, various mode of fixed rail transit, etc. Each time, the professors needed additional explanation as to what each of those things is.

 

We were told that last quarter focused on research of fixed rail transit (though we have yet to get access to that research). I am not completely sure what the goal of this course is. The profs said that we would work to come up with some sort of plan for a fixed rail system for the city, develop a set of recommendations and present them to the proper people (city officials, etc).

West Side/East Side stereotypes have nothing to do with the streetcar. 

 

There hasn't been much news here lately, so I'll let a little off-topic go on.

Thanks xumelanie. ;-) I was thinking the same thing.

 

On a more related note, I'm taking a Topical Studio at UC offered by the Industrial Design Program and hosted of the Niehoff Studio by the Livewell Cooperative. We've have two classes so far this quarter and the class is composed mainly of industrial design students, a couple of graphic, fashion, and digital design students, 4 or 5 urban planning students and one each finance, business, and economics students. The professors are industrial design people. I can tell already that some aspects of this class are going to be frustrating. The topic is the Cincinnati Streetcar and fixed-rail transit in general.

 

Today, we were going around the room and everyone had to bring up conversation points for future discussion and work. The planners all brought up things like headways, TOD, fare collection issues, various mode of fixed rail transit, etc. Each time, the professors needed additional explanation as to what each of those things is.

 

We were told that last quarter focused on research of fixed rail transit (though we have yet to get access to that research). I am not completely sure what the goal of this course is. The profs said that we would work to come up with some sort of plan for a fixed rail system for the city, develop a set of recommendations and present them to the proper people (city officials, etc).

 

I remember my Niehoff studio was exactly as you describe, only the topic was food.

 

Although we were all students once and some of us still are, I don't lend too much credence to what the student community advocates when it comes to issues (like the streetcar) that are larger than campus life or education. Students just don't coherently wield any political or financial power, even when given the opportunity.

West Side/East Side stereotypes have nothing to do with the streetcar.

 

There hasn't been much news here lately, so I'll let a little off-topic go on.

 

A little off-topic isn't bad, but I know how ugly things can get when talking east-side/west-side.  I spent most of my life on the west-side, but I did live "east-side" for a few years.  ;-)

For some reason things don't tend to get ugly in the streetcar thread very often. But we'll keep an eye on it.

One of the reasons Cincinnati has such a strong culture is that it's pretty insular and resistant to outside ideas. The Westside takes this characteristic to a different level. It's a strongly traditionalist city-within-a-city. Westsiders are more likely to be Cincinnati lifers.

 

Growing up and spending 23 years of my life on the west side I would say this is generally true. Westsiders tend to be very comfortable because they are surrounded by people they have known all their lives. If you don't like the way they do things great, but they're going to continue living the way the generations of westsiders have lived before them, regardless of what you think. Family, friends, and loved ones are what come first to them without exception and they will always look out for each other. Many don't know how things are outside of the westside and they don't care to, because they have the ideal world they choose to live in. Pride of the past generations is one reason why I see a strong desire to protect price hill and keep people from fleeing to Indiana.

 

I don't live there anymore, but I may return one day and I know that I will find the same people and institutions that were there when I left.

The west side gave us 4192.  That is all that matters.  Ugly chicks need love too.

Ok, *now* we've pushed this side conversation into a new page. Back on track or I'll move these to another thread.

"West Side/East Side stereotypes have nothing to do with the streetcar."

 

  I disagree. If we are going to use public money to build the streetcar, the streetcar is going to be a politcal issues whether we like it or not.

 

    The West Side is an example of strange politics. The West Side, as a percentage of Hamilton County, has only 20% or so of the population. Yet, because West Siders have a high voting percentage and conservative political views, the West Side can often control the outcome of an election. Steve Driehaus and Steve Chabot are both West-Siders. Bill Seitz, state representative, is a West-Sider.

 

    Some of these politicians are decidedely anti-city, even though many of their constituents live withing the City of Cincinnati municiple limits. Don't look to Bill Seitz for state funding for the Over-the-Rhine loop.

 

    Quite frankly, politicians who are not from the West Side mostly ignore the West Side, and vice versa.

 

    When the Metro Moves plan was proposed, west-siders knew that no one really intended to build light rail to the west side, but instead it was put in the plan just to get votes.

 

    The stadium vote failed in the west side about 3 to 1.

 

    In Green Township in particular, the democrats fail to field a serious candidate for trustee in most elections. The Republicans have been in control there for many, many years. And if you think that Green Township is out in the boonies, please note that Ohio's largest township by population is going to be a race between Colerain, Green, and West Chester in the 2010 Census, with each one having about 60,000.

 

    Am I leaning off-topic? Maybe. But saying that east-west sterotypes having nothing to do with it is clearly a mistake.