^ No chance it will be free. I'm guessing a two-hour pass for the streetcar will equal the cost of a one-way Metro fare within the city limits = $1.75, probably $2.00 by the time the service opens in April, 2013.

How much was Portland's when it began? How much is it now?

 

When I was out there it was free within city limits. I think this was the best part of it. You could just hop on anytime, anywhere and not have to worry about getting ticket, etc. I understand why Cincinnati's can't be free but IMO it will hurt the ridership. I'd love to take the streetcar up to Findlay Market during lunch but if I have to pay $2 or more to do it I'm not so sure I will.

Your $2.00 fare would also be good for the return trip. Portland's fares are only free in the downtown, basically between Portland State to the first half of the Pearl District. They have eliminated free fares on downtown buses figuring that now with intersecting N/S and E/W light rail lines, those pretty much cover the downtown circulation function.

 

 

So lets just assume that I'd take the streetcar 3 times a week from my work to wherever, that's approximately $25/month. That is still pretty penny. Again, I understand the reasons for it but I still think it will affect ridership. Hopefully not too much though.

 

It's been a while since I've been in Portland but I remember jumping on the streetcar in the middle of downtown (forget what that little square is called) and taking it to the Rose Gardens to watch a basketball game, all for free. Granted that is just outside of downtown but it was great just being able to jump on and off whenever.

You may want to buy a combo Metro/Cincinnati Streetcar Pass if one is available, as I suspect it will be.

 

The train you took from Pioneer Courthouse Square to the Rose Garden was Portland's MAX Light Rail, not the streetcar. And it's still free in and near downtown. The Rose Garden is across the Willamette River from downtown, and it has very little parking, so a lot of people arrive by transit. In January of this year, I got the name and phone number of a scalper from the hotel doorman. When I called his cell phone to ask out how to meet up with him at the Rose Garden, he said, "Just call me when your train is on the Steel Bridge, and I'll be looking for you. I'm the guy wearing the black and white checkered hat." So I did, and when the train got to the Rose Garden stop a couple of minutes later, there he was, offering to sell me a $100 seat for half-price. When the game was over, a couple of westbound trains were lined up to handle the surge, and I was back at my hotel in ten minutes. An elegant solution. Oh, and the Blazers beat the Bucks by thirty points.

^The light rail in Portland essentially functions as a streetcar when it gets to downtown.  What you were on was the MAX (light rail), which has a stop at the Rose Gardens, a few stops prior to when it switches to grade separated tracks.  The MAX trains are much larger than Portland's streetcar, but if you don't see them side by side, it's easy to confuse the two.  Portland's streetcar is always on-street, and is basically just a loop, whereas the MAX is a "streetcar" for only part of its route.  Both run through the fareless square, and their lines actually intersect so it's possible to transfer from the lightrail to the streetcar in order to reach another portion of downtown.

 

//EDIT:  Was already typing this when John answered.

Here's what Steve Chabot wrote on his blog today:

 

"Ill occasionally get comments or questions about Afghanistan, legalizing marijuana, the Over-the-Rhine streetcar plan, and just about anything else that might be on peoples minds."

 

Note the subtle bias.

 

Wow, statements like this make me absolutely furious.  I can't stand this sort of pessimistic, ignorant attitude coming from people like Chabot.  This was definitely an intentional attempt to bring the project down to the level of unpopularity as Afghanistan and "moral" issues like legalizing pot.  Not only that but he is intentionally trying to make the masses believe thats its just a train through over the rhine. 

This is SO typical of West Side Cincinnati's attitude towards anything not "Gun slinging, bible carrying, republican politics."  Trust me, I grew up on the west side and these are exactly the type of people that absolutely LOVE chabot.  Chabot is a bad man for Cincinnati and we should be doing everything possible to keep him out of any office that will influence Cincinnati.

Oh my god, I just went to Chabot's website to see the context in which he wrote that quote and I can hardly stand to read his crap!  His post was about how he's sure that the majority of Americans are angry with washington, obama, and congress in general and he actually admits that he's been getting his information from talking to people at festivals around town.  Most of the festivals he's talking about I'm sure are on the westside, since that's about all there is to do on the westside in the summer is go to catholic festivals, where everyone is 100% ultra conservative and lame.  I really hope he doesn't make it back into office.  Chabot politics is exactly what's been wrong with this city for so many years.

And how about that comb-over! He should definitely win an award for having the craziest comb-over hair of all time.

Most of the festivals he's talking about I'm sure are on the westside, since that's about all there is to do on the westside in the summer is go to catholic festivals, where everyone is 100% ultra conservative and lame.

 

Let's tone this down a bit. The westside bashing is unecessary and these "ultra conservative and lame" people currently have a Democratic rep that they elected who supports the streetcar.

I think you can count on Chabot getting back in.  Steve Driehaus snuck in in part because he's from a large family that is well-liked (lots of local name recognition, by virtue of having 72 first cousins) and because more Democrats showed up to the polls last time for Obama.  When he voted for the health care thing, it was over, but he already knew it was two-and-out, so by voting for it he positioned himself to be well-positioned in the party when out of office.   

 

Believe it or not the Luken clan is also well-liked, at least by old ladies, simply because various Lukens were married into popular (although not necessarily wealthy) west side families.  One of them married "a Schoenling" (yes, that's how people put it), which is apparently enough for a distant relative to win votes.   

 

 

 

Most of the festivals he's talking about I'm sure are on the westside, since that's about all there is to do on the westside in the summer is go to catholic festivals, where everyone is 100% ultra conservative and lame. 

 

 

Let's tone this down a bit. The westside bashing is unecessary and these "ultra conservative and lame" people currently have a Democratic rep that they elected who supports the streetcar.

 

Well, I apologize if I offended anyone, its just that I grew up there and I still have flashbacks...kind of like PTSD.  I didn't mean it to sound so hateful though.  I bash the westside constantly among my friends who also grew up there, so I guess I'm just used to doing it too often.  Again, I hope I didn't offend anyone, it wasn't meant to come off like that.

 

I hate I 71. I hate all of the road construction by my house. I can't wait until the Kennedy Connector is done. I hate driving...I miss being able to walk and commute by rail. I am going to Portland in the fall and I am excited at being able to check out their streetcar system.

 

 

^ I believe Steve Chabot is opposed to rail in Cincinnati regardless of how it is financed. He has, however, voted for other rail projects, including the $1 billion Tren Urbano Light Rail in San Juan, P.R.

 

Cincinnatians have seen him on the Washington Metro.

 

I'm pretty sure this is right, and Chabot has been opposed to every rail proposal in the City.  As far as him 'bringing home the bacon' on a specific project, I'm almost certain he voted against federal funds to help build the Central Riverfront Park that is currently under construction, whereas Schmidt did vote for it, so there's at least one example of him not doing it.

 

I think you can count on Chabot getting back in.  Steve Driehaus snuck in in part because he's from a large family that is well-liked (lots of local name recognition, by virtue of having 72 first cousins) and because more Democrats showed up to the polls last time for Obama.  When he voted for the health care thing, it was over, but he already knew it was two-and-out, so by voting for it he positioned himself to be well-positioned in the party when out of office.

 

I wouldn't be so sure.  The win difference between Driehaus' run in 2008 and Cranley's unsuccessful run in 2006 (both Democratic years) was largely made up of voters outside of the City, from what I've been told.  I'm not too sure if health care 'did him in either'.  If you're assuming a voter who votes according to the issues, I find it hard to imagine that there are many voters who liked the idea of health care refom enough to support Driehaus in 2008, but changed there mind over the course of a year.  Maybe they are out there, but I doubt it.  Also, I'm curious who the voter is who votes for Driehaus over the incumbent Chabot in 2008, and two years later decides to go back to Chabot in a rematch, and if they exist in statistically significant numbers.  And given that Chabot took the seat [which was held by a Democrat since 1983] in 1994, which was a Republican year, I don't think the argument that Driehaus won soley because it was a Presidential year holds as much water as people imply.  I'd say that the situation is much more fluid.

I think many of Chabot's voters may have stayed home in '08 and some might be more likely to come in for this election.

from the enquirer:

http://news.cincinnati.com/article/20100731/NEWS0108/8010302/City-suburbs-feud-over-rail

 

^That City leaders took this tactic right before the deadline is ridiculous.  From the cities perspective it makes sense and they're playing hardball but that this wasn't more strongly discussed earlier with the Eastern Corridor proponents is in poor taste.  Many of the civic proponents of the Eastern Corridor project are the same ones behind the streetcar.

There must be more to this story than we know.

Since when is the Eastern Corridor even in play anymore?  Its website hasn't been updated in years and I thought some strong NIMBY opposition put the kibosh on the whole thing.  It's strange that they're focusing on the rail component here (well, not strange for the Enquirer), because that's a very small aspect to the plan intended merely to soften the blow of and divert attention from a much larger highway project.

I love (sarcasm) the opening sentence of this typical crappy Enquirer article: "Hamilton County isn't big enough for two rail projects."

 

That sounds like something stupid the local tv news reporter would say at the beginning of a crappy video montage.

They need the rail project in the plan to justify the construction of a new freeway-ready, eight-lane bridge over the Little Miami River -- supposedly four lanes for cars and trucks, two dedicated for buses, and two for trains. Yeah, right, lots of demand for that level of transit in Clermont County. And, of course, the highway will get built with 90% financing, the rail will never pencil-out, and someday, someone will say, "Hey, why don't we use all this extra bridge capacity for an Interstate Highway?"

 

This could have been handled more gracefully, and I don't like the way the Enquirer has spun it, but I think City Council finally figured our how bad this project really is -- for the city and for the entire region. Hope it's dead now.

 

Would be a decent streetcar line.

The county may have been in shock regarding the city's eastern corridor position, but as many people have said the eastern corridor project is just a front for pushing a freeway through the corridor. The capacity for trains to be added is just like the capacity for trains to be added to the Woodrow Wilson Bridge, something real, but will never be realized.

 

I applaud the city's efforts to fight a freeway in its jurisdiction. This isn't commuter rail versus streetcar, this is streetcar versus roadway. We don't need massive new roads, we need to optimize the roads we have and invest in alternatives to roads.

The demand would be there from Clermont County, but this has been a chicken and egg issue since the alignment of the original interstates. River topography coupled with politically powerful rich communities standing between downtown and Clermont County has prevented a consistent development pattern there.

 

We are probably at a point in Cincinnati's development where it's a moot point, but from an objective perspective, there is no rational reason that proximal land with a low transportation cost remains undeveloped in the eastern suburbs while remote land in Warren county continues to develop at a high transportation cost.

The demand would be there from Clermont County, but this has been a chicken and egg issue since the alignment of the original interstates. River topography coupled with politically powerful rich communities standing between downtown and Clermont County has prevented a consistent development pattern there.

 

We are probably at a point in Cincinnati's development where it's a moot point, but from an objective perspective, there is no rational reason that proximal land with a low transportation cost remains undeveloped in the eastern suburbs while remote land in Warren county continues to develop at a high transportation cost.

I've thought about this since it was posted; it is a very prescient comment. My sense is that some of Cincinnati's East Side communities, including the ones west of and adjacent to the Little Miami River, have seen freeway systems play out here and in many other cities. And, just looking back on it empirically over many years now, they may feel that the long-term benefits of future urban freeways no longer exceed the costs. I suspect that some of the close-in West Side communities now wish I-74 would have never happened.

 

So, for some on the East Side and elsewhere, the availabilty of cheap land distant from the city is a future foregone but no longer missed.

The result worth noting is that the growth happened in a line roughly stretching from the Warren/Butler Cty. border through the heart of the city and then south along the 75 corridor along the Boone/Kenton border.

 

  The City of Cincinnati is advertising for a manager for the streetcar project.

 

http://www.cincinnati-oh.gov/cityhr/pages/-36335-/

 

  The City of Cincinnati is advertising for a manager for the streetcar project.

 

http://www.cincinnati-oh.gov/cityhr/pages/-36335-/

 

That's quite a nice paying job, and also some nice COAST ammo.  I bet there's a great pension too.

Speaking of COAST ammo, the $6,000/yr salaries paid to the Rapid Transit Commissioners for 14 years were used as ammo to kill the subway project.  It's really easy to whip the public into a frenzy over sums of money that can be easily grasped, especially for jobs that can be perceived as easy. 

It's gotta be a well-paying job because they have to deal with all that mouth from the anti-streetcar crowd.

It's a well-paying job because it's a meaningful infrastructure project. If COAST can make a big deal out of it, I can make a big deal out of a 1,000 other high-paying infrastructure jobs. Maybe we can get something for nothing in America, but it usually has the quality and substance of something like COAST.

 

  The City of Cincinnati is advertising for a manager for the streetcar project.

 

http://www.cincinnati-oh.gov/cityhr/pages/-36335-/

 

That's quite a nice paying job, and also some nice COAST ammo.  I bet there's a great pension too.

Given that the job is described as "managing all aspects of the development and implementation of a Cincinnati streetcar transit system" I'd say it's a pretty safe bet that this job will cease to exist after 'implementation'.  I suspect that this salary and whatever benefits are included represent a part of the previously listed total projected cost of the project.

 

Has COAST had any legislative successes on their signature issues since the defeat of the County Jail tax in 2006?  I don't remember what they were pushing in 2007 but their principal issues in 2008 and 2009 weren't adding language to the Charter to prevent red-light cameras or the sale of the Water Works, they were proportional representation and Yes on 9, both of which failed by considerable margins.  Their record on issues they are actually pushing is pretty dismal.

Given that the job is described as "managing all aspects of the development and implementation of a Cincinnati streetcar transit system" I'd say it's a pretty safe bet that this job will cease to exist after 'implementation'. I suspect that this salary and whatever benefits are included represent a part of the previously listed total projected cost of the project.

 

There's always the possibility that Phase 2 will be in the planning stages by the time Phase 1 opens, so it might turn into a semi-permanent position.

Since there is always the possibility that the streetcar can be expanded to include more areas of the city, I think position will become a permanent one.

 

I really wish the city had a dedicated planning department that handled this stuff. They really do need to develop a comprehensive strategy the identifies what kind of streetcar system the city wants ideally (ie 50- to 75-year build out) and from there identify priority phases.

Baby steps.  Get the thing built, convince the naysayers (or at least shut them the hell up), then plan the build-out. 

Baby steps. Get the thing built, convince the naysayers (or at least shut them the hell up), then plan the build-out.

Good Lord I've never seen so many people on Cincinnati.com whine about something they have no idea about.  Constant negativity on that site

Cincinnati Streetcar Will Help Boost Metro Ridership

http://cincystreetcar.wordpress.com/2010/08/04/cincinnati-streetcar-will-help-boost-metro-ridership/

Baby steps. Get the thing built, convince the naysayers (or at least shut them the hell up), then plan the build-out.

 

These are the kinds of naysayers who will never find anything positive in anything. The sun is out? Too hot and dry. The rain has arrived? Too dark and dreary. You can't force people to enjoy life.

My sister who still lives in the area can't be happy unless she's miserable. 

 

I think this is a new article from today's enquirer site: http://news.cincinnati.com/article/20100804/NEWS0108/8050358/1055/NEWS/Streetcar-No-going-back-now

 

"Advice from streetcar manufacturers and input from those who live or work along the winding uphill streets will figure significantly into the decision, city officials say."

 

We need to all provide input now if we want to see this thing done right.  My vote is still for the Clifton Ave. route.  I just don't think the Vine street route will do well.  No one walks around up at the top of vine and its really on the outskirts of campus.  The clifton ave route would end right smack in the middle of a fairly heavily pedestrian dominated area that lots of people use regularly and could actually be a great point for future expansions to branch from.  I think we need to encourage the city to pursue that route.  I fear the Vine street route would do poorly and make the whole project look bad.  I for one doubt I would ever ride the uptown connection if it went up Vine.  There's just nothing up there.  I would REGULARLY use it if it went up Clifton as I already traverse that area regularly, especially with my bike. 

What do others think?

If the technical issues can be worked out, my preference would be Vine Street because it offers the most direct access for future expansion to the medical center, zoo, and beyond. A different streetcar route serving Taft and McMillan from the Walnut Hills area would be a worthwhile later phase.

Whichever one is less steep I hope. UC kids will walk to Vine, just like I did every day.

Isn't Vine 2 lanes going up the hill? How much traffic will be stuck behind it if it creeps up the hill?

If Vine Street is chosen, then I think the street needs a major reworking.  It can be widened at Vine Street School and at Inwood park, and sidewalks and streetscaping would need to be completely reworked the whole length. But the biggest problem with Vine is the steep and congested intersections at the top of the hill.  Seems like here maybe some widening and restructuring of the roadway would be needed? 

 

And at the completion of this phase, where will it reverse and change lanes?

The demand would be there from Clermont County, but this has been a chicken and egg issue since the alignment of the original interstates. River topography coupled with politically powerful rich communities standing between downtown and Clermont County has prevented a consistent development pattern there.

 

We are probably at a point in Cincinnati's development where it's a moot point, but from an objective perspective, there is no rational reason that proximal land with a low transportation cost remains undeveloped in the eastern suburbs while remote land in Warren county continues to develop at a high transportation cost.

And, let's face it, on the other side of Clermont county there is nothing while Warren/Butler counties are sandwiched between Dayton and Cincinnati and therefore benefit from two loci of sprawl.

 

I'd imagine that whatever popular support/energy COAST had has been directed toward the insufferable Tea Party movement.

This is like a dream of mine: a Tea Party that forces the government into prioritizing smart growth choices like rail/streetcars (even if it backed into it by supposedly sapping COAST of its mythical power).

 

Let the record show that the Tea Party movement is responsible for the Cincinnati Streetcar.

I don't understand what you guys mean by "West Clifton."  Is that a street?  Are you talking about coming up McMicken and Ravine to conect with Clifton?

There is a stretch of Clifton the runs from McMillan/Calhoun down through University/Clifton Heights and hits Vine St. just above the Findlay intersection. If you are on McMillan turn right at the corner w/ Chicago Gyro and the health food store.

^ ah, okay.  So it goes right by Murphy's Pub?

Yep.

I think the "Free Rail Zone" section of the Portland streetcar car is an essential part of the plan and should be seriously considered by Cincinnati for some portion(s) of the streetcar.

 

Portland's "fareless square" is demarcated by the red dashes:

 

Like I've said before "getting" the streetcar is the easy part.  Making it work is the tough part.

After reading this topic the past few weeks and reading about "free zones," I was a bit skeptical. However, the past three days I was visiting Pittsburgh and my opinion changed. While their Subway/Light Rail dubbed the "T," isn't too similar to Cincinnati's streetcar plan, the downtown portion of it is free. I used it to get around the whole time and traveled outside of the "free zone," but having the downtown area free to ride was a great way to encourage ridership. It also made it really easy for the numerous tourists I saw to get around, especially those who weren't familiar with tranist.

It doesn't have to be free, but it does have to be extremely simple to use, say, swipe a credit card and get a ticket for all day for you and your family so that you can get on and off many times and explore along the way.

I think kids should be free, but not adults.  Suburban and vacationing parents just plain won't take their whole family on the streetcar if it costs $24 for a round trip. 

The demand would be there from Clermont County, but this has been a chicken and egg issue since the alignment of the original interstates. River topography coupled with politically powerful rich communities standing between downtown and Clermont County has prevented a consistent development pattern there.

 

We are probably at a point in Cincinnati's development where it's a moot point, but from an objective perspective, there is no rational reason that proximal land with a low transportation cost remains undeveloped in the eastern suburbs while remote land in Warren county continues to develop at a high transportation cost.

And, let's face it, on the other side of Clermont county there is nothing while Warren/Butler counties are sandwiched between Dayton and Cincinnati and therefore benefit from two loci of sprawl.

I believe that's true for 75, but not for 71. It's simply a distorted perception of access since no freeway goes through Indian Hill. (ie, the route from Goshen to Cincinnati is as fast as South Lebanon, but there is more development in South Lebanon.)

I'm also a proponent of the free fares after using them in Portland.  Perhaps at least to start out with so some skeptics might ride it and realize the benefits.  I think even a small fare will prevent lots of people from using it.  Though I do understand some reasoning behind not having free fares.

 

I also think it'd be nice to have some type of benefit from living/working in the city.  If you live/work in the city you get a subsidized monthly pass.  Something of that nature.

Being free doesn't it pad the numbers to show the Feds that the system is growing and deserves more federal dollars?

If the Cincinnati Streetcar had a "freezone", what would you suggest the limits be to maximize a balance of ridership and revenue generation?