Slow news day?

I think they are really missing the ability to throw meat into the shark tank once a week with a streetcar article.

 

They should be prepared for a fizzle-pop instead of a bang. The Enquirer is now powerless with regard to this issue.

Now it looks like it will appear on Sunday. Three reporters are on the story. It will not appear online.

Now it looks like it will appear on Sunday. Three reporters are on the story. It will not appear online.

Interesting approach...I wonder what the reasoning behind it is?

 

3 reporters?  Wow, they are going all out.  I hope they are fair with the coverage and look at it objectively.  Hard to believe that will be the case though

The Sunday Enquirer's Preview of the streetcar story: http://news.cincinnati.com/article/99999999/CINCI/100204016/Sunday-s-Enquirer-First-in-Print

 

Big choices, big impact for streetcar route

 

City officials have a big choice to make on the city's streetcar: which route should it take to Uptown. The Enquirer tells you what's at stake.

Two Enquirer articles, which appear only in Sunday's print edition, are fine. Very factual discussion of the merits of Vine v. Clifton. Nice to read a story about neighborhoods competing for streetcar service.

Two Enquirer articles, which appear only in Sunday's print edition, are fine. Very factual discussion of the merits of Vine v. Clifton. Nice to read a story about neighborhoods competing for streetcar service.

Excellent news.  Hopefully they eventually put it online

Right on cue, Horstman in paragraph 3 tells of a circa 1910 derailment on Clifton. 

Right on cue, Horstman in paragraph 3 tells of a circa 1910 derailment on Clifton. 

 

I didn't really find Horstman's article that informative personally.  It seemed to have a hint of sarcasm and condescendence to it (Just my personal opinion)

 

The other one, I thought, was pretty well done.  Exactly the information people(and myself) want to know side by side in a compare/contrast article. 

 

Anyways, this may be a dumb question since you guys obviously know a lot more than I - if so I apologize - but if one of the main concerns with these routes is the grade of the hill, is there such a thing as a streetcar/track with cogwheel capabilities or is that totally incompatible with this project due to the technology, location or cost? 

 

    The Vine Street route has a slope of about 7%, which manufacturers claim is within the capabilities of modern streetcars. Indeed, Cincinnati's historic streetcars covered the very same routes.

 

  Cogwheel introduces a lot of complications. It is more appropriate for slopes over 20%, and slow speed at that.

The route comparison article is online now. Horstman's article maintained the same old amusement park / down in flames disaster stuff.

http://news.cincinnati.com/article/20100823/NEWS0108/8220346/1055/NEWS/Streetcar-route-much-coveted

The West Clifton route is good in that it would better serve the parts of UC’s campus that are the most used.  The side effect, of course, would be overcrowding.  The Clifton/Calhoun/McMillan/West Clifton intersections are already bottlenecks, and the businesses there are always bustling with students before/between/after classes and at the bars at night.  Running a streetcar through there would actually make it overcrowded. Plus, the turn at the top of W. Clifton seems impossible.  I’ve seen busses get stuck trying to make it, and within 30 seconds there’s total havoc with cars and pedestrians piling up everywhere… The MLK interchange would have to be built before running a streetcar on Calhoun/McMillan would work.  There’s already too much traffic on those streets because it’s the only access point to I-71 from uptown, even though they are neighborhood streets and MLK is an 8 lane, high speed thoroughfare.

 

The articles don't really touch on that aspect, but as someone who constantly walks and drives through that area, and frequents half a dozen of the stores, it's the first thing that comes to my mind.

I still think that phase 1 should be a direct line up Vine St.  It would make for a very easy ride straight up the hill.  The critique I've gotten in the past is that it misses a lot of development opportunities on lower Vine, but that can happen in a later phase down Main and Walnut.  Here's the map:

 

Greetings all...I am a new poster and a Mt. Auburn resident very interested in the streetcar and Uptown development.  I am concerned about the decision for the routing of the Uptown line of the streetcar both because of some of the congestion issues cited here, as well as because I believe Uptown as a whole is better served by locating this initial mainline at the meridian rather than the Western Edge of Uptown.  I have seen comments to the effect that West Clifton is better for McMillan Place and Old St. George among others, but these two examples are actually closer to the Vine/McMillan intersection!

 

In addition, I must admit my bias as a Mt. Auburn resident to the fact that redevelopment has been going on for years on Calhoun and McMillan.  Moreover, with the resources of UC, and an already established business district, that area will always have more possibilities.  Even Avondale and the Short Vine corridor are now reaping the benefits of the Uptown initiatives.  However, being almost totally residential, Mount Auburn needs business revitalization and investment.  With a large stock of historic homes in need of visibility, repair, and restoration, I believe the streetcar is an opportunity for Mt. Auburn that the neighborhood cannot afford to lose.

 

I have written a letter to Mr. Dohoney and Mr. Moore to this effect.  Does anyone know if there will be a public forum?

 

Thanks.

I think that in terms of economic development opportunity, W Clifton (Serve only west campus, and a very solid commercial neighborhood district but less potential for expansion) would be better for short-term benefit whereas running it up Vine works better for the long-term  transit vision (Potential of expansion to Clifton/ Calhoun/ McMillain couplet, Short Vine/Jefferson,Zoo and possible Walnut Hills routing).  Of course this does not factor into grade and wear and tear on vehicles.  The difference in timing on both routes is about three minutes, which is not a big deal.  What is a factor though is the "development potential" and of course, the logistics in actually making it work.  Routing the streetcar up W. Clifton would make sense if it wasn't a bigger logistical challenge than running it up Vine.  And Vine would make sense if there was greater development potential along the current route. 

 

Decisions, decisions...

I suggested this to the City a couple of weeks ago -- an alternate to the Vine Street route:

 

Rather than sending the streetcar all the way up Vine to the McMillan intersection and having no good place to land once you get there ... instead ... just past Inwood Park near the top of the hill, turn right off Vine onto East Hollister and travel up an average 4% grade to Auburn Avenue, then turn north on Auburn with a stop on Auburn between Hollister and McMillan.

 

Cross McMillan and Taft and continue north on Euclid one block to Corry. Turn left on Corry and stop at Vine and Corry.

 

Continue west on Corry toward UC and turn left on Jefferson with a university stop at Corry and Jefferson.

 

Continue south on Jefferson back across Calhoun and McMillan to Vine to return to CBD.

 

This plan gets the streetcar to within walking distance of Christ Hospital and right to the center of the Short Vine business district.

 

Accesses substantial office space on Auburn and many homes in both Mt. Auburn and in Corryville.

 

Requires Hollister to become two-way again -- not a problem, I suspect.

 

If this could happen, Vine Street holds the most promise.

 

Jake made a map earlier -- can you post it, Jake?

That's an awful lot of turns, more of which this project definitely does NOT need.  Also, while a one-way loop at the end of the line can work, it precludes any further extension beyond that point. 

^ Why? In order to travel north toward Clifton/Ludlow or the hospitals, the streetcar would simply continue north on Vine from Corry Street and return down Vine to Corry for the trip downtown.

 

I do agree on the excessive turns. For streetcar planning outside of the CBD, life would be easier if we weren't a city of hills -- a city of valleys, actually.

Welcome, tim713. Glad to have you on UO!

I think everyone has a lot of good points regarding both routes.  I personally prefer to see the Clifton route simply because I see it being a route I would actually use.  There's nothing at the top of the Vine route and that intersection is very unfriendly to pedestrians.  I just don't think we would see the ridership numbers we would hope to see via that route.  Though the short vine area could potentially be revitalized with the streetcar running there, I think we would see more immediate benefits by having it go up W. Clifton where it could eventually loop around and continue on towards Ludlow.  There's just way more people living along that route already and many of them are college students who would likely use it heavily for getting around campus and going downtown on the weekend.

The nice thing about either route is that an "Uptown Circulator" running in a loop in an East/West direction would tie together both areas nicely, but this wouldn't be done for many more years.

I think we need more immediate results in terms of ridership numbers and economic benefit if we want to be able to expand in the near future and I think the W. Clifton route will yield better immediate results.

Regardless, either route will eventually help uptown immensely.  Its just a matter of picking the one with the best short term benefits to make the system look as good as possible right from the start.

The West Clifton route is good in that it would better serve the parts of UCs campus that are the most used. The side effect, of course, would be overcrowding. The Clifton/Calhoun/McMillan/West Clifton intersections are already bottlenecks, and the businesses there are always bustling with students before/between/after classes and at the bars at night. Running a streetcar through there would actually make it overcrowded. Plus, the turn at the top of W. Clifton seems impossible. Ive seen busses get stuck trying to make it, and within 30 seconds theres total havoc with cars and pedestrians piling up everywhere The MLK interchange would have to be built before running a streetcar on Calhoun/McMillan would work. Theres already too much traffic on those streets because its the only access point to I-71 from uptown, even though they are neighborhood streets and MLK is an 8 lane, high speed thoroughfare.

 

The articles don't really touch on that aspect, but as someone who constantly walks and drives through that area, and frequents half a dozen of the stores, it's the first thing that comes to my mind.

 

I have to disagree with you on the overcrowding concerns.  I think just the opposite would happen with a streetcar going through that area.  You would see more people using public transportation and walking rather than driving.  The streetcar should help to alleviate all that congestion you're referring to.  The fact that its already a heavily used pedestrian area is actually really good for the streetcar.  I don't think it would be wise for it to turn an immediate right on McMillan once its up the hill, instead it would be better for it to go straight and then turn left on Calhoun and loop back around on clifton towards McMillan again and then back down the hill from there.  That's the route the original streetcar system followed I believe and it obviously worked well considering all the dense development that built up around those streets.

Plus, you'd have the added benefit of easy expansion to Good Samaritan and the Ludlow district.  And, you'd be able to incorporate it into an Uptown circulator that follows McMillan towards Mt. Auburn and loops back to Calhoun past Old St. George and the Uptown Commons area etc...

^I agree completely with what you said.  The West Clifton area is really where a large (possibly majority) amount of students live.  I think if the line ran there, more UC kids would take it  to downtown and OTR, and because of all the stores and restaurants at the top, I think residents of downtown and OTR would be more inclined to use the streetcar to get to Uptown.  If the route went up Vine, what exactly would the end destination be? Mad Frog or CVS? I also agree that linkage to Ludlow is very important, and would really make that area boom.

The West Clifton route is good in that it would better serve the parts of UCs campus that are the most used. The side effect, of course, would be overcrowding. The Clifton/Calhoun/McMillan/West Clifton intersections are already bottlenecks, and the businesses there are always bustling with students before/between/after classes and at the bars at night. Running a streetcar through there would actually make it overcrowded. Plus, the turn at the top of W. Clifton seems impossible. Ive seen busses get stuck trying to make it, and within 30 seconds theres total havoc with cars and pedestrians piling up everywhere The MLK interchange would have to be built before running a streetcar on Calhoun/McMillan would work. Theres already too much traffic on those streets because its the only access point to I-71 from uptown, even though they are neighborhood streets and MLK is an 8 lane, high speed thoroughfare.

 

The articles don't really touch on that aspect, but as someone who constantly walks and drives through that area, and frequents half a dozen of the stores, it's the first thing that comes to my mind.

 

I have to disagree with you on the overcrowding concerns. I think just the opposite would happen with a streetcar going through that area. You would see more people using public transportation and walking rather than driving. The streetcar should help to alleviate all that congestion you're referring to. The fact that its already a heavily used pedestrian area is actually really good for the streetcar. I don't think it would be wise for it to turn an immediate right on McMillan once its up the hill, instead it would be better for it to go straight and then turn left on Calhoun and loop back around on clifton towards McMillan again and then back down the hill from there. That's the route the original streetcar system followed I believe and it obviously worked well considering all the dense development that built up around those streets.

Plus, you'd have the added benefit of easy expansion to Good Samaritan and the Ludlow district. And, you'd be able to incorporate it into an Uptown circulator that follows McMillan towards Mt. Auburn and loops back to Calhoun past Old St. George and the Uptown Commons area etc...

 

The majority of cars going through that area are en-route to or from I-71.  Anytime between 3 and 7, the entire length of McMillan from Clifton to 71 is over capacity.  The streetcar isn’t going to alleviate any of that, because the people driving through there are going to the suburbs, not downtown.  Unless another route from uptown to 71 is built, nothing is going to alleviate any of the congestion that exists there.  an MLK interchange has been in the works for awhile, but there’s no way it could be ready by the time the streetcar is being built.  There would be an overlap of extreme congestion that could potentially hurt the streetcar.  Imagine sitting on it stuck in traffic for 15 minutes, which happens from time to time on McMillan. 

What about the amount of parking on West Clifton along with the street width?  With relatively few driveways and the dense concentration of housing, what will the effect be on parking, especially since few of those houses have drievways or off-street parking?  Isn't Vine Street wider overall?

Here is the link for Sunday's article:

 

http://news.cincinnati.com/article/20100823/NEWS0108/8220346/1055/NEWS/Streetcar-route-much-coveted

 

Incidentally I biked down the Vine hill one day last week and remember seeing a woman with two professional Cannon cameras.  Turns out is was the Enquirer's photographer taking shots for this story.  I know for a fact those cameras and lenses totaled more than $10,000 and as a woman walking around alone in that area she was a prime target for harassment in the minds of suburbanites.  But obviously she survived. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I think Clifton and Vine would both be good choices in different ways.  What concerns me is the zoo stop.  I wonder how many people would actually take the streetcar there.  I took the UC north shuttle many times and it makes a stop at the zoo and I've never seen anyone get off there.  Eventually the drivers just started skipping that stop. 

 

I think it would make much more sense for the streetcar to turn left at Nixon continue onto Jefferson, and then onto Ludlow.  There are many more people living in the Ludlow area, than the area around the zoo and walking up Jefferson to catch the streetcar on Vine and Nixon is out of the way, whereas walking to the zoo from Vine and Nixon is an easy walk. 

 

I'm assuming curves and hills would be an obstacle in going down Jefferson, but I'd like to see this possibility in discussion, because the Ludlow/Gaslight neighborhood would be a large group of riders. 

I think Vine makes the most sense, unless immediate ridership is given a lot of weight. I envision a future connecting route which runs along McMillan and Calhoun from Vine, down Clifton, over Ludlow to Hamilton in Northside.

Tons of new streetcar info- http://www.cincinnati-oh.gov/noncms/projects/tiger2/tiger2index.cfm

I think Clifton and Vine would both be good choices in different ways. What concerns me is the zoo stop. I wonder how many people would actually take the streetcar there. I took the UC north shuttle many times and it makes a stop at the zoo and I've never seen anyone get off there. Eventually the drivers just started skipping that stop.

 

I think it would make much more sense for the streetcar to turn left at Nixon continue onto Jefferson, and then onto Ludlow. There are many more people living in the Ludlow area, than the area around the zoo and walking up Jefferson to catch the streetcar on Vine and Nixon is out of the way, whereas walking to the zoo from Vine and Nixon is an easy walk.

 

I'm assuming curves and hills would be an obstacle in going down Jefferson, but I'd like to see this possibility in discussion, because the Ludlow/Gaslight neighborhood would be a large group of riders.

 

I have to agree with you on your concerns with a zoo stop.  My wife works for the zoo and has given up trying to use Metro for her ride home from work because its such a infrequent stop for buses heading downtown.  Remember, the zoo is mostly for families with children.  My wife works in the education dept. and I can tell you that the majority of the zoo's income for that dept. comes from programs for children.

My point is that I don't think we'll be seeing much demand for a streetcar line to the zoo via vine or any route for that matter.  The zoo is for suburbanites mostly and that is why they've invested so heavily in large parking lots there.  No one with kids lives downtown right now and likely won't in the future either.  Sure, an occasional out of town tourist staying at a downtown hotel might use the streetcar to get to the zoo, but that's not enough traffic to make a streetcar route to the zoo feasible.  That's just one more reason I see the Vine route as less useful.

The streetcar will be most useful to the people living in and around downtown, OTR, and uptown.  We should build the route uptown that will get the most use from those residents and I think the Clifton route is the way to go. As mentioned above, UC students would likely become heavy users of this system if its built along Clifton.

 

What I like about a Vine routing is the ability to serve Short Vine and eventually Ludlow via the aforementioned Nixon/Jefferson routing.  That's still close enough to the zoo, but the real key is that it's close to East Campus and University Hospital.  Any routing via Clifton that doesn't take a huge detour back to vine upon reaching McMillan fails to serve that East Campus area, which is arguably just as important as serving West Campus.  It's not just about getting students and teachers to downtown and back, but also getting workers from OTR up to UC and the hospitals.  To leave the hospitals out of the equation by locating the route too far to the west would be a big missed opportunity in that respect. 

The majority of cars going through that area are en-route to or from I-71. Anytime between 3 and 7, the entire length of McMillan from Clifton to 71 is over capacity. The streetcar isn’t going to alleviate any of that, because the people driving through there are going to the suburbs, not downtown. Unless another route from uptown to 71 is built, nothing is going to alleviate any of the congestion that exists there. an MLK interchange has been in the works for awhile, but there’s no way it could be ready by the time the streetcar is being built. There would be an overlap of extreme congestion that could potentially hurt the streetcar. Imagine sitting on it stuck in traffic for 15 minutes, which happens from time to time on McMillan.  

 

I really don't think the McMillan/Calhoun congestion would be much of an issue, especially if it doesn't turn right on McMillan and instead goes straight through to Calhoun and onto clifton again towards Ludlow.  At that point there could be some sort of turn around to head back downtown or simply loop back around mcmillan and then turn back down the hill to downtown. 

I just don't think we should worry about automobile traffic in designing the system.  Automobile traffic should come second.  If the area becomes too congested because of the streetcars getting in the way, then drivers will learn to take alternate routes that are less crowded, such as MLK to Jefferson or something.  I personally think that the Vine/McMillan intersection is much more congested and busy then the Clifton intersection anyway.  And it has less pedestrian traffic simply because theres nothing there worth walking to and its fairly hostile towards foot traffic given the high amount of fast moving traffic.

I understand your concerns that if the area is moving slow with traffic that it might adversely affect ridership, and you may be right, but I still think its more important to worry about building the system for foot traffic first and foremost, and concerns about automobile traffic should come second.

Anyone else have any input on this?

I agree that too much emphasis is put on keeping streetcars from impacting automobile traffic, which leads to the streetcar project being compromised.  My opinion is that everything should be done to give streetcars priority over all other traffic, with no exceptions, even if this means blocking the lane from use by cars, or at least making it less than pleasant by using rough paving.  If streetcars cause traffic backups behind them when they're stopped at stations, then so be it, you should be riding the streetcar instead. 

 

However, to put the streetcar in a situation where it gets stuck in traffic jams that are already present is also a bad thing.  OTR has the advantage that there's a lot of through streets, and there's not really any stop and go traffic, just lots of lights to navigate, which are relatively easy to get around.  Calhoun and McMillan however get jammed up all on their own, as do the intersections at all four corners of UC's main campus.  This is much more difficult to deal with.  With just one stop, I could see a Clifton-Calhoun-W. Clifton-McMillan loop taking nearly 5-8 minutes to navigate in heavy traffic, even though it's just one block around.  Vine/McMillan would be tough because of the high volume of east-west and turning traffic onto eastbound McMillan, on top of the steep grade there.  Vine/Jefferson/MLK is a complete mess, and it would be difficult to navigate the geometry even without the high volume there.  All these make signal preemption more difficult, and would likely lead to the streetcar waiting around unnecessarily.  That's the real concern more so than creating a traffic backup behind it. 

^ what Johio said. Pretty much the same reasons I'm inclined to favor the Vine Street alignment.

Tons of new streetcar info- http://www.cincinnati-oh.gov/noncms/projects/tiger2/tiger2index.cfm

 

So is it just me or are the graphics on most of those PDF's corrupted?  I can't get some of the documents to open at all. 

Here is the "Hollister" loop John Schneider described:

 

No one with kids lives downtown right now and likely won't in the future either.

 

As a point of reference my wife and I live in OTR/downtown and just had a baby.  We intend on raising our kids here and would take the streetcar to the zoo.  We also have neighbors and friends in OTR/downtown with kids (not to mention all the people I see walking around with strollers) that I think would also find a zoo-streetcar link valuable. I know you were just generalizing, but I think saying "no one with kids lives downtown right now" isn't even remotely accurate.

Tons of new streetcar info- http://www.cincinnati-oh.gov/noncms/projects/tiger2/tiger2index.cfm

 

So is it just me or are the graphics on most of those PDF's corrupted? I can't get some of the documents to open at all.

 

I have the exact same problem.  I thought it was my Adobe Reader application, but apparently if others are having an issue maybe it isn't.

While the streetcar isn't entirely about use by tourists, I think the zoo connection allows the city to sell the streetcar as an easy to use way to stay downtown in the hotels and then travel to a couple key sites in the region (it also gets it much closer to University, Childrens, and the VA hospitals).

 

By and by, I really like the Hollister loop. In an ideal world, I'd argue for a bridge for McMillan over Vine intersection and then send the streetcar beneath the bridge.

While the streetcar isn't entirely about use by tourists, I think the zoo connection allows the city to sell the streetcar as an easy to use way to stay downtown in the hotels and then travel to a couple key sites in the region (it also gets it much closer to University, Childrens, and the VA hospitals).

 

By and by, I really like the Hollister loop. In an ideal world, I'd argue for a bridge for McMillan over Vine intersection and then send the streetcar beneath the bridge.

 

Why would that be ideal?  Separating the modes seems like a bad idea IMO, especially when thinking about creating a vital urban environment. 

Tons of new streetcar info- http://www.cincinnati-oh.gov/noncms/projects/tiger2/tiger2index.cfm

 

So is it just me or are the graphics on most of those PDF's corrupted? I can't get some of the documents to open at all.

 

I have the exact same problem. I thought it was my Adobe Reader application, but apparently if others are having an issue maybe it isn't.

 

I informed the City about the problem.

A bridge would allow for Vine to be graded for the Streetcar and you'd eliminate an unpleasant intersection and provide smoother access from campus to the interstate (this only makes sense if they can't get the MLK intersection w/ 71 built).

I've been thinking about Vine Street a lot.  I am on this hill almost everyday of my life, and it is ugly.  It is a terrible entrance from Clifton to the basin.

 

The streetcar should be used as a catalyst to upgrade the hill from at least Mulberry to Hollister.  The on-street parking should be removed in this narrow stretch.  As it is, many people on the west side of the street park with their wheels up on the sidewalk because the lanes are too narrow. Buses often have to cross the center line to get past parked cars. 

 

There are less than a dozen buildings total on the west side of the street, several of them are vacant and only one of them is really a decent structure, 2349 Vine which houses an employment agency called Ikron.  And of course much of the east side is parkland and surplus school property.

 

If you de-congest the area from Mulberry to Hollister, and then turn the upward track up Hollister then it starts to make sense, because you only have the downhill line running through the other tight spot at Vine/McMillan at the Green Frog.

 

I'm begining to see how this could work although there are some trouble spots with the Auburn loop, such as the hill/left turn combo at Cory and Euclid.  It is a very steep short hill there.

Just because a route selection for the next phase may be the cheapest doesn't mean that future connections won't be made that much more expensive. I feel that the Vine Street connection will make it more challenging to expand up Clifton Avenue (not West Clifton) to Clifton proper.

 

I feel a better a approach to this streetcar planning is not solely to revitalize neighborhoods it traverses, but also where its destinations are. Do I feel that the uphill section of Vine will ever by a walkable district? No I don't. I think we should be planning to increase opportunity for density where density already exists.

 

These are just gut feelings, of course.

I think the best way to Clifton proper isn't Clifton Ave.  No real development opportunities there. To serve Ludlow you go up Vine and come in the back way on Jefferson. 

I would like that much more than the Euclid/Corry ideas that have been floating around. In Clifton, that would help with access to the future Clifton Branch Library location.

^ I think it would be nice to get at least close to (within walking distance of) an established, non-low-income Uptown neighborhood to anchor the project. That would mean the closer to the northwest side of west campus the better. While I say this would be nice, it simply doesn't seem reasonable. Neither of these solutions really do that.

 

The best alternative, then, is to go for density, as you suggest. But at what logistical, operational, and monetary cost?

 

These would be goals for maximizing ridership and early perception of the streetcar's success. I believe it was Qualls who demanded the first phase reach Uptown, and I think this "stable northern anchor" idea is what she had in mind.

 

Perception of the streetcar's success should be a minimum criterion for whatever route is chosen. I'm no expert, so I can't really say what needs to be done to make this happen. If W. Clifton's density is necessary for this success, it should be the chosen route, no question. However, if the experts are confident in the (perceived) success of a Vine Street route, it is the better choice.

 

I think your worries about the difficulty of expansion are unfounded, as the Vine St. route leaves a number of options available.

 

In my fantasy world, I would love to see the streetcar cut across campus...perhaps partially underground.

When do you think we'll have a final decision on the routing or a groundbreaking?

TIGER II Application- http://www.dot.state.oh.us/news/TIGERIIGrantApplications/CicinnatiStreetcar.pdf

I really hope ODOT screwed up the file name and that we didn't send an application for the Cicinnati Streetcar to the Federal Government.

No one with kids lives downtown right now and likely won't in the future either.

 

As a point of reference my wife and I live in OTR/downtown and just had a baby.  We intend on raising our kids here and would take the streetcar to the zoo.  We also have neighbors and friends in OTR/downtown with kids (not to mention all the people I see walking around with strollers) that I think would also find a zoo-streetcar link valuable. I know you were just generalizing, but I think saying "no one with kids lives downtown right now" isn't even remotely accurate.

 

Of course I was generalizing, and I know there are SOME people with kids downtown, I live right next to a young couple with a baby in OTR, but my point is that THOUSANDS of people from the suburbs bring their children to the zoo on weekly basis compared to maybe a dozen or so from downtown?  That kind of traffic for the zoo just won't be coming from downtown any time soon.  I'm not saying it won't happen in the future, just that right now its not likely. 

 

If you look at that map posted above and look at the density of housing along the Clifton Rt. vs. the Vine route and you think about what that red loop circles, its clear that the Vine Rt. would likely see very little use.  I mean, who's going to hop on a streetcar downtown or in OTR and ride up to CVS? or Clifton Krogers?  Not only that, but there's not even much in the way of housing along Vine except for some rehab programs (I think there's a large block of buildings dedicated to drug and alcohol rehab actually) and some low income housing.  Plus, there's a little used park on the right hand side.  Short Vine has potential, yes, but its going to take years for that to come around. 

Compare that to Clifton ave, which was built around a streetcar line and McMillan/calhoun were both served by one too.  The neighborhood is already perfectly aligned for that kind of transportation.  There's tons of student housing in use and there's actually stuff worth riding to on that route.  Regardless, look how close the Clifton Rt. is to the site of the new Uptown Commons, Urban Outfitters, etc.   

And you're definitely not leaving out employment Centers, Good Sam and UC are well aligned for the clifton route, not to mention how lively Ludlow is and always has been. 

I guess I'm just biased because I never find a reason to go over to Short Vine or UC Med Center, whereas I'm ALWAYS going over to Ludlow for movies, dinner, etc, plus I work at Good Sam:)