It doesn't mean we don't try.  Somebody at Kroger's has to have an open mind or at least be willing to listen.

Is there any way TOD zoning regulations could be placed along the streetcar route, forcing University Plaza to be redeveloped in an urban way?  Or have the plans already been approved?

And some others:

 

Harvard

MIT

Columbia

NYU

UC Berkeley

 

 

Incidentally, all have lower student populations -- often much lower -- than the UC main campus.  Off the top of my head I think Harvard has 12,000 combined undergrads and graduate students, or about 1/3 of what's on UC's main campus.  It has had subway service since 1912 and from what I recall no large parking garages.

The streetcar makes living in OTR inifinitely more livable for example if it takes about 15 - 20 min max to make it from OTR to the Uptown Plaza area then for grocery shopping and other activities this is actually fairly convenient.  I take the subway to the grocery store all of the time - I could see it opening alot more possibilities here for Kroger there essentially build a stop right at their doorstep or within 50 meters and I think the city could put some pressure for them to create a true urban store.

The issue in the uptown area is that the Mitchell Ave. Kroger killed all the Clifton business at the Corryville Kroger (and the Clifton IGA).  Neither the OTR Kroger or the Corryville Kroger has a real seafood department or any of the stuff that goes along with a big-time grocery store, but it doesn't appear that they have any plans to close one or the other, although the Corryville store is no longer 24-hours.   

Though with Kroger's hatred of the OTR store and the impending (or is it already done?) closing of the Walnut Hills store, maybe they're going to do better with the new Uptown Kroger to compensate somewhat.  Of course a real full Kroger in OTR would be best, but being on the streetcar line a full-service store in Uptown would be the next best thing.   

Though with Kroger's hatred of the OTR store and the impending (or is it already done?) closing of the Walnut Hills store, maybe they're going to do better with the new Uptown Kroger to compensate somewhat. Of course a real full Kroger in OTR would be best, but being on the streetcar line a full-service store in Uptown would be the next best thing.

I'm not sure that Kroger hates its OTR store. In fact, my understanding is that its ex-CEO, Joe Pichler, is really proud of it. And it's really a pretty good store given its age and size -- and important for the neighborhood (try to find ... I dunno ... Crisco, at Findlay Market). Pichler's been a "behind the scenes" streetcar opponent, and I've always wondered whether the streetcar's inseparable identification with Findlay Market has served to enhance his opposition.

 

"The plan as it exists today is for the streetcar to continue north on Vine past McMillan and turn right onto Taft into a protected counterflow lane on Taft."

 

  Oh dear. That spot is the most pedestrian-unfriendly spot in the whole U.C. area. Adding a contraflow streetcar lane, ironically, will make it even more pedestrian-unfriendly.

 

  Who wants to cross two highways, plus a streetcar track, to get between the U.C. stop and U.C.? And it's still a LONG and not too friendly walk to the heart of the U.C. campus.

 

    Plus, counterflow is just asking for trouble.

 

    I continue to be disappointed.

 

 

Kroger is in business to make money, and lots of it.  According to numbers I found on the internet, it appears that the average Kroger supermarket earns $4 million in profits per year.  It's easy to imagine a downtown store making no money, or struggling to pay high property tax and debt service on a parking garage or other special infrastructure.  Add to that that it would have to compete with Findlay Market an a variety of corner grocery stores and you quickly see how without an influx of 10,000 more residents it doesn't make sense. 

 

 

 

 

Now that it is going up Vine, I have long thought the CRC's Hollister Tennis & Basketball Court Playground at Vine Street and East Hollister would make a great redevelopment site.  Yes, you are losing park space.  But much of it is wasted as it is. The basketball function could easily move across the street to Inwood Park.  And there are nearby tennis courts at Taft & Reading Road.  You could build more there if you wanted.

 

The building would have a great setting on Inwood Park to the south and could have fantastic views of the city below. And maybe the CRC would make some money on the sell of the land. And I think building a parking structure right about where the tennis courts are could make some sense.

 

I did a quick site plan.

 

^ Another reason to send the streetcar to onto Hollister to Auburn to Corry.

What's the capacity of the cars and operating speed?  Also, how many cars are going to be bought?

It seems like the streetcar could possibly take over the Blockbuster and Blockbuster parking side of University Plaza and leave the Kroger side to itself, if Kroger doesn't want to play ball.

Has that Blockbuster closed? I drove by Wednesday but didn't even look. Kroger still might have a say about what goes on with the rest of the center.

I think the entire Blockbuster chain is pretty much circling the drain at this point.

What's the capacity of the cars and operating speed? Also, how many cars are going to be bought?

 

That depends on the cars we buy. 

^got it.  I've heard that we'll have the most modern streetcar in the midwest - so that must mean that we have the latest and greatest trains.  For me - since I've mostly done heavy rail I'm mostly making the comparison between the trams of Nantes, France.  Nantes uses the Incentro designed trams - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Incentro

^Yes, grocery stores are a notoriously low-margin business.

^got it. I've heard that we'll have the most modern streetcar in the midwest - so that must mean that we have the latest and greatest trains. For me - since I've mostly done heavy rail I'm mostly making the comparison between the trams of Nantes, France. Nantes uses the Incentro designed trams - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Incentro

 

I really like the look of those.

Potential Manufacturers include:

 

*United Streetcar/Oregon Iron Works,

*Siemens,

*Inekon,

*Kinkisharyo

*Bombardier

No more Skoda? 

Does Siemens make a modern streetcar? Or would we see one of its types of light rail vehicles used? Because the ones in Houston look awesome: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/ea/Light_Rail_Houston.jpg

>grocery stores are a notoriously low-margin business.

 

Anything that is high volume is low profit margin or else someone gets involved and starts stealing market share.  Streetcar systems were very high volume and low margin businesses when they were monopolies, and depending on their franchise agreement sometimes had their profits capped at 3-6% and the rest automatically went to the city, even after a percentage had been taken from the 3-6%.  That percentage on, say, $100 million in revenues sounds to the average person like the company is charging too high a fare and has money to run more streetcars to more places and politicians exploited that sentiment in order to position themselves has heroes of the people.   

Need to correct something I wrote earlier. Streetcar will continue north on Vine past Taft onto Jefferson and turn right on Corry and lay over on Corry along the north edge of what is now the University Plaza shopping center. Then reverse its way out of Corry to Jefferson to Vine.

 

One thing they're debating is whether both directions of east/west travel should be on Central Parkway or 12th Street downtown. There are merits to each. School bus and parent drop-offs around the new School for the Creative and Performing Arts are a complicating factor. Also, eventual LRT or streetcar service to CUT figures into this.

Is 12th the possible westbound route or the eastbound?  I would really like it on 12th to help support the business district on upper Main Street, especially if it is the westward route, meaning that it hits the corner of 12th and Main.  Also think about it going right to the door of the Art Academy.

No more Skoda?

 

I think Skoda and the aforementioned Inekon are related companies.

No more Skoda?

 

I think Skoda and the aforementioned Inekon are related companies.

 

The Portland style streetcars, if selected, will likely be made by United Streetcar/Oregon Iron Works- http://unitedstreetcar.com/products/united-streetcar-100

Any idea when we'll know who's selected?

Is 12th the possible westbound route or the eastbound? I would really like it on 12th to help support the business district on upper Main Street, especially if it is the westward route, meaning that it hits the corner of 12th and Main. Also think about it going right to the door of the Art Academy.

Kinda think that it is either both directions on 12th or both directions on Central Parkway. I come down slightly in favor of wanting to land both directions right in the Gateway District., i.e. 12th. Seems more pedestrian friendly to me. And safer.

No more Skoda?

 

I think Skoda and the aforementioned Inekon are related companies.

Skoda and Inekon are actually competitors today. Skoda was first with the design, and then Inekon adapted it. The Oregon Iron Works prototype that was made for Portland used the Skoda propulsion system, and they've had a lot of problems with it and still can't get it certified for U.S. use.

 

Skoda is an old-line Czech Republic manufacturer of lots of things. Its car division is now owned by VW.

>grocery stores are a notoriously low-margin business.

 

Anything that is high volume is low profit margin or else someone gets involved and starts stealing market share. Streetcar systems were very high volume and low margin businesses when they were monopolies, and depending on their franchise agreement sometimes had their profits capped at 3-6% and the rest automatically went to the city, even after a percentage had been taken from the 3-6%. That percentage on, say, $100 million in revenues sounds to the average person like the company is charging too high a fare and has money to run more streetcars to more places and politicians exploited that sentiment in order to position themselves has heroes of the people.

 

True enough.  The razor-thin profit margins in the grocery business help explain why they are so keen on cost control in areas like shoplifting.  Why else would they be so adamant about putting those stickers on your case of soda or beer on the bottom of the cart?

Wow... great to hear that 12th St. is being considered! It would seem to bring much more potential than Central.

>cost control in areas like shoplifting.

 

Like anything else employees are probably their biggest source of shoplifting (especially swiping cash and lotto tickets), not the public.  I'd also guess that part of what's motivating the replacement of the Corryville store is energy efficiency as much as the boost that will come from a new store.  From their perspective they're mostly competing with other Kroger stores so it's a bit of a zero-sum situation. 

 

My hunch is that both tracks on 12th will be better than both on Central Parkway. 

 

 

Not that it's any reason to stop construction of a streetcar, but it kind of sucks that they'll have to tear up the mural that they're painting on 12th and the cobblestones on Elm.

 

I'm kind of rooting for both directions of the streetcar to travel along the boulevard of Central Pkwy.

I'm kind of rooting for both directions of the streetcar to travel along the boulevard of Central Pkwy.

 

Agree.  Seems better to tie into potential future subway tunnel use and the possibility of turning at least that section of the road into a grand boulevard.  Also CP doesn't seem to have that much traffic for how big it is, and it seems that Liberty Street / 7th-8th-9th / Ft. Washington Way are the natural corridors for crossing the CBD/OTR between the two highways.

I'm kind of rooting for both directions of the streetcar to travel along the boulevard of Central Pkwy.

 

Agree. Seems better to tie into potential future subway tunnel use and the possibility of turning at least that section of the road into a grand boulevard. Also CP doesn't seem to have that much traffic for how big it is, and it seems that Liberty Street / 7th-8th-9th / Ft. Washington Way are the natural corridors for crossing the CBD/OTR between the two highways.

 

It will be interesting to see if Central Parkway becomes more integral as OTR revitalizes. Seems like Central Parkway tends to suffer from not having decent connections to I-75 and I-71. Everyone gets off I-75 on 7th and 5th and that traffic filters through the city from the southwest. I tend to agree that 12th street probably makes good business sense. I'd kind of like to see it on Central Parkway, though, for the whole "grand boulevard" idea, as well.

I like CP. Share the tracks with a future extension CUT <-> Casino. Give CP a road diet in the process -- make streetcar(/bus)-exclusive lanes.

 

CP is like a blank slate for complete street design. With the relatively minimal traffic it has, combined with the huge amount of space available, it's ripe to be turned into a multi-modal thoroughfare. Subway, streetcar connection from CUT to CBD and OTR, bike route feeder into the (flat) Mill Creek Valley, BRT. It may not be so useful for drivers, but it's an obvious choice for basically all other modes. With the history of boats and subway tunnels, it's been an obvious multi-modal choice since before OTR got its name.

Well the cool thing here is that with the streetcar perhaps CP can realize its potential and we can get a really nice and long district happening.

I'm still holding out hope that one day the subway tunnels will be utilized for light rail/heavy rail service. That way a stop right above the Race St. station on Central Parkway would make streetcar connectivity really convenient, not to mention you could then take the streetcar to connect to the RTC.

Need to correct something I wrote earlier. Streetcar will continue north on Vine past Taft onto Jefferson and turn right on Corry and lay over on Corry along the north edge of what is now the University Plaza shopping center. Then reverse its way out of Corry to Jefferson to Vine.

 

One thing they're debating is whether both directions of east/west travel should be on Central Parkway or 12th Street downtown. There are merits to each. School bus and parent drop-offs around the new School for the Creative and Performing Arts are a complicating factor. Also, eventual LRT or streetcar service to CUT figures into this.

 

I prefer west on 12th and a return on Central.  The SCPA pick ups/drop offs has been a clusterfu*# (and kind of always will be) but it is something that can be alleviated with proper logistical planning. Since 3CDC is eliminating the parking around Washington Park, it sounds like there's a convenient layover lane for busses lining up Southbound on Race. 

The issue with the parkway, I think, is that they would have to undertake a major streetscaping project to get the most of this.  Otherwise the streetcar stuff will look "tacked on".

 

Moreover, the subway is centered under the parkway, meaning for tracks to access it easily they would have to briefly run four abreast in the parkway's median or some other clumsy-looking arrangement.  Tracks could enter the subway more neatly in the parkway's median if they turn 90 degrees from Walnut and Main.  Alternatively tracks could enter the subway on the parkway's outside lanes and curve into the center.  Or to increase speed the Main/Walnut tracks could each go underground a block from the parkway and the junction could be in a new subway section. 

 

Ronnie, with streetcars entering so close to surface stops, they'd either ignore the Race Street station or rebuild it as a low-platform station.  No matter what there would be a little bit of work to get the tracks down there, but it would be a relatively small project, just like building the ramps to an underground parking garage. 

   

 

  Isn't there an old city ordinance that prohibits streetcars on Central Parkway? I guess it doesn't matter - the city won't enforce the law if there is one. It is ironic, though, that we are talking about a streetcar practically on top of the subway. I still prefer the Main/Walnut alignment without the zig-zags, though.

 

  As crazy as it sounds at first, I woulnd't mind making Central Parkway into a parking lot, with angled or perpendicular parking like Court Street or Short Vine. There is no perfect formula for the proper proportions of parking and moving lanes, but since Central Parkway seems to have ample moving lanes, why not try it?

 

   

It was a condition of the canal's lease to the city by the state. It hasn't been valid since around 1955, when the state conducted a few land swaps with Cincinnati, St. Bernard, and other municipalities along the canal.  There were a few instances where 75 deviated from the canal route and typically what happened was the canal was given to the city outright in exchange for small parcels of city-owned land where I-75 was built. 

 

  Wow! I didn't realize that. I had assumed that it was due to Central Parkway's "Parkway" status.

 

  The school of thought that was held by traffic engineers at the time of Central Parkway's construction was to separate different kinds of traffic, and specifically keep trucks off the parkway, which also connected to the top deck of the Western Hills Viaduct. Even today there are signs prohibiting trucks from the parkway. The top deck of the Western Hills Viaduct was reserved for cars, while the bottom deck was open to cars, trucks, and streetcars. I don't know if there was ever any city ordinance prohibiting streetcars from Central Parkway.

 

 

Need to correct something I wrote earlier. Streetcar will continue north on Vine past Taft onto Jefferson and turn right on Corry and lay over on Corry along the north edge of what is now the University Plaza shopping center. Then reverse its way out of Corry to Jefferson to Vine.

 

One thing they're debating is whether both directions of east/west travel should be on Central Parkway or 12th Street downtown. There are merits to each. School bus and parent drop-offs around the new School for the Creative and Performing Arts are a complicating factor. Also, eventual LRT or streetcar service to CUT figures into this.

 

I certainly hope they use 12th street.  I would make no sense at all to skip over the 12&Vine area with all the development going on there and further up on vine and main street also.  Central parkway for both directions would be a big mistake IMO.  We will never use the subway tunnels for anything.  There's a huge water main down there that would cost WAY too much money to relocate.  We're talking about Cincinnati here, big dreams (like using our subway tunnels) just don't happen here.  We're getting a streetcar, lets make it as useful as possible by having it go through an important neighborhood, not run along a busy 4 lane street that's not at all pedestrian friendly and has virtually no storefront potential.

We will never use the subway tunnels for anything. There's a huge water main down there that would cost WAY too much money to relocate.

 

I believe they are in the process of, or have already removed that water main.  Stop being such a naysayer.  Such attitudes are exactly why Cincinnati is in the bind it's in. 

Not that it's any reason to stop construction of a streetcar, but it kind of sucks that they'll have to tear up the mural that they're painting on 12th and the cobblestones on Elm.

 

I'm kind of rooting for both directions of the streetcar to travel along the boulevard of Central Pkwy.

 

If they are painting a mural on the street won't it be gone in a matter of months with traffic and weather anyway?  I highly doubt a street mural could last through a single cincinnati winter with all the salt and salt truck scraping our roads see.  Not a reason to base a decision on the streetcar.

We will never use the subway tunnels for anything. There's a huge water main down there that would cost WAY too much money to relocate.

 

I believe they are in the process of, or have already removed that water main. Stop being such a naysayer. Such attitudes are exactly why Cincinnati is in the bind it's in.

 

Do you have any sources to share on that?  I'd be quite surprised to hear that they are moving the water main with out a good reason?  But, I'll happily stand corrected if you can show some proof.  And trust me, I'm not being a naysayer at all, quite the opposite in fact.  The reason I'm saying those tunnels will never be used is because we were barely able to get the streetcars approved, lets not mess up the design of our system by saying that someday we'll start using 80 year old subway tunnels.  Its just highly unlikely that any project like that would ever fly in Cincinnati. 

I'm a huge supporter of the streetcar and its impact on downtown and especially OTR.  That's why I want to see it run further up into Over the Rhine along 12th street.  The area is already prime for streetcar traffic and the increase in pedestrian use it will see as a result.  It would be absolutely foolish, IMO, to run it along CP where there are no storefronts and very little residential use.  I know it seems like CP doesn't get a lot of traffic, but thats not entirely true.  The traffic that does run through there is dangerous, people drive very fast through there.  I live a block from there and I can tell you from personal experience that its not friendly to pedestrians at all. 

Additionally, by having it go down 12th street you're getting it right into the heart of where everything is happening now and will add to that immensely.  Main street is changing quickly (Neon's, the new diner, new shops, etc, etc), Vine street is of course changing rapidly too..So, why move the streetcar further south away from all that?  That makes no sense.  It might seem like its only a block, but in order for this system to be used heavily we have to make it as visable and convienient as possible. 

Maybe I'm wrong, but CP just seems like a bad idea to me.

The city is not moving the water main out of the Central Parkway subway tunnels. This comes up a lot, and the confusion probably results from the city's installing a redundant water main alongside Fort Washington Way during the latter part of the 1990's. At some point, the switch can be made, but it's not in the cards right now.

 

I'm also doubtful that we'll ever see the Central Parkway tunnels used for trains. Subways are today only being constructed in principal cities of the world, and even that's become a formidable task -- see: NYC's Second Avenue Subway or LA's "Subway to the Sea." Not likely for Cincinnati because you'd still have to build new tunnels all the way through the CBD south from Central Parkway at $200 million a mile. Or more. Plus I dunno where you install the subway entrances and elevators along downtown's thirteen-foot-wide sidewalks. Not happening any time soon.

I'm also doubtful that we'll ever see the Central Parkway tunnels used for trains. Subways are today only being constructed in principal cities of the world, and even that's become a formidable task -- see: NYC's Second Avenue Subway or LA's "Subway to the Sea." Not likely for Cincinnati because you'd still have to build new tunnels all the way through the CBD south from Central Parkway at $200 million a mile. Or more. Plus I dunno where you install the subway entrances and elevators along downtown's thirteen-foot-wide sidewalks. Not happening any time soon.

 

This is getting away from the streetcar topic (and I think this has even come up before), but couldn't you just use the existing tunnels as a partial subway without expanding them?  Lightrail down the 75 corridor would convert to subway for a short while to get trains quickly into downtown.  When an existing tunnel ends, the train moves to the surface and runs in the street.  I agree that adding more tunnels would be cost prohibitive, but if we could use the value of the existing tunnels to obtain a federal match on a lightrail project, it seems like something that should be considered.