March 3, 201114 yr With a free fare system, the need to agressively enforce on-board conduct rules is imperative. No panhandling, especially! Loitering would have to be well-defined. (More than one whole loop?) If that's manageable, I think no-fare is the way to go, at least for the downtown loop. Unfortunately, I don't think it's politically feasible.
March 3, 201114 yr Why not have daily/monthly/per ride fare cards that work on buses and the street car, you swipe them when you walk on, or a little plastic arm doesn't rotate out of your way. I don't know why having a small turnstile at each door would be such a problem, it wouldn't making loading/unloading passengers any slower than the bus (in fact, with a card it'd be quicker). There could occasionally be a non-uniformed conducted on board who grabs anyone who hops the turnstile, as there are in most of NYC's subway stations.
March 4, 201114 yr People already don't want to finance this project; you have to charge a fee. Printed tickets should become a standard format in all regional transportation. Stickers feels gimmicky, and will be labeled as much worse by the anti-streetcar crowd. If the rail system grows like we all hope it does, stickers will become impractical anyway.
March 4, 201114 yr I'm sure people are working diligently to solve this problem. First things first. Main construction on the project needs to start.
March 4, 201114 yr What would be (have been?) the last possible date for the city haters to turn in their signatures for the May ballot? When is groundbreaking expected now?
March 4, 201114 yr How about subcutaneous implants like what the TSA offered so people could breeze through airport security?!?! ;-) "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
March 4, 201114 yr Author What would be (have been?) the last possible date for the city haters to turn in their signatures for the May ballot? Today
March 4, 201114 yr What would be (have been?) the last possible date for the city haters to turn in their signatures for the May ballot? When is groundbreaking expected now? My understanding is the petition gatherers have 60 days before the election to get in their petition signatures which would be March 4th I think. As for the groundbreaking, if history is any indication it will be some time in 2013. "Someone is sitting in the shade today because someone planted a tree a long time ago." - Warren Buffett
March 4, 201114 yr Either they are having trouble picking up signatures or they actually want a subway scenario, where tons of money is sunk prior to cancellation. Whichever is the case, it reeks of incompetent strategizing on their part.
March 4, 201114 yr My experience is limited to Portland only, but when I went I bought a 7 day TriMET pass. I rode the LR, streetcar and the bus and of all the times I rode everything, the only time I was EVER asked to show my ticket, was on the bus. No one ever asked on the train or on the streetcar. The ticket machines were there, but no one ever asked. Obviously, if I lived there Im sure I would be subjected more often to checks, but in 6 days there riding everyday, the only time I EVER saw an official on board, was when they were handing out flyers about upcoming known service disruptions. Really, it seems to me like it would be difficult to police. If random searches were performed and a perception formed that there was the ever present threat of getting checked, its reasonable to assume the fare jumpers would be fewer and far between. Charlotte recently did a study of it's light rail and found that fare jumpers accounted for a miniscule amount of the fares being lost. Whether or not Cincy's route is free or not, it is time well spent to see how these things operate in other cities. I personally think that for smaller (relatively) cities like Cincy that a circulator service like this owes its existence to being low cost or free. It will greatly encourage the movement of people and the generated economic activity can help bridge the gap. Especially when 3rd party operating cost sources are secured. Just my thoughts.
March 4, 201114 yr The penalties for fare jumpers must be high enough (and the checks frequent/infrequent enough) to cover the cost of 1) checks and 2) lost fares. I suppose also in the calculus is, if the fine is too high, people won't pay it. But they probably won't cheat on fares anymore, either!
March 4, 201114 yr The real trick is setting a proper fine for not having a valid ticket. It has to be large enough to be a deterrent and also to recoup the estimated cost of people who aren't caught. It also can't be so large that it ruins someone or is excessively unfair to those who make a mistake with their ticket or is caught 5 minutes after their ticket expired. If I recall, the fine in many European cities is something around $60-100, at least it was about 10 years ago.
March 4, 201114 yr Fines for Sydney's CityRail (In Aussie dollars): http://www.cityrail.info/travelling_with/conditions_of_travel/fines
March 4, 201114 yr The subway/light rail in Los Angeles doesn't use turnstiles, and instead just makes riders buy a ticket and carry it on them. Police officers will board the trains every once in a while and check to make sure you have a valid ticket. If you don't have one, the fine is something ridiculous, I believe over $300. As a result, the vast majority of people still buy tickets even though the majority of the time you could ride for free and not get caught.
March 4, 201114 yr ^ I've seen a Portland fare evader -- apparently a repeat offender -- taken off a MAX train in handcuffs. I've probably boarded Portland Streetcars hundreds of times over the years, and I think I've been checked for a ticket a handful of times.
March 4, 201114 yr Author ^ I've seen a Portland fare evader -- apparently a repeat offender -- taken off a MAX train in handcuffs. I've probably boarded Portland Streetcars hundreds of times over the years, and I think I've been checked for a ticket a handful of times. I was checked for tickets 25% of the time on the MAX. Didn't get checked on the streetcar but rode most of it in the fareless square.
March 4, 201114 yr ^ I've seen a Portland fare evader -- apparently a repeat offender -- taken off a MAX train in handcuffs. I've probably boarded Portland Streetcars hundreds of times over the years, and I think I've been checked for a ticket a handful of times. I was checked for tickets 25% of the time on the MAX. Didn't get checked on the streetcar but rode most of it in the fareless square. In five years I was checked on MAX only a handful of times. The secret on the streetcar is they don't police it because they can't afford to (that may change once the Eastside extension is open). The thing is, though, that most people actually DO buy a ticket--on MAX, at least (I think the fine is $250)--and most of the fare jumpers are only going a few stops.
March 4, 201114 yr I like to compare this system to driving on the highway. Cops sit in medians an pull over speeders every once in a while. Does is stop everyone from speeding...no. Does it make people think twice about their speed and prevents many from doing so...yes. If it is noticed that the collective driving community has disregarded the traffic laws, they step up patrol.
March 4, 201114 yr A little less traumatic than KJP's subcutaneous implants, could you give people a light dose of radiation & put geiger counter devices in the doors that would set off an alarm when no radiation was detected? Maybe have retractable bear trap devices in the floor to stop 'em in their tracks?
March 4, 201114 yr I have a feeling that the Cincinnati Streetcar will either be a fantastic success or a dismal failure, depending on how details are worked out. I do not like the proposed alignment with all the bends, mainly because it is 10 blocks longer than the alternate that I proposed, but we have discussed that already. In my mind, fares are analagous to highway tolls or parking meters. Whether or not to charge fares should depend on the technical and economic merits of the system and not on a political whim. Toll highways are rare in the United States, and fees for parking are hardly ever seen in the suburbs. The typical suburban big-box establishment has a few acres of "free" parking; they are providing a portion of the transporation infrastructure at no cost to the user, and recovering the cost through sales. If the streetcar brings about all of the development that it is supposed to bring, property owners along the route should have no issue with paying slightly higher property tax to support the operation of the streetcar, and the City should have no problem collecting increased tax revenue. In this way, the city is analagous to the big box store that provides a portion of the transportation infrastructure in reture for sales. The fact that we are talking about fares does little to boost my confidence in the streetcar. Either it will bring the development, or it won't. If it does, there should be no problem funding the operation cost. If it does not, then it will require a "subsidy" to operate, and there will be constant political pressure to reduce the operation subsidy, which will leave no funds available for improvement.
March 5, 201114 yr I have a feeling that the Cincinnati Streetcar will either be a fantastic success or a dismal failure, depending on how details are worked out. I do not like the proposed alignment with all the bends, mainly because it is 10 blocks longer than the alternate that I proposed, but we have discussed that already. In my mind, fares are analagous to highway tolls or parking meters. Whether or not to charge fares should depend on the technical and economic merits of the system and not on a political whim. Toll highways are rare in the United States, and fees for parking are hardly ever seen in the suburbs. The typical suburban big-box establishment has a few acres of "free" parking; they are providing a portion of the transporation infrastructure at no cost to the user, and recovering the cost through sales. If the streetcar brings about all of the development that it is supposed to bring, property owners along the route should have no issue with paying slightly higher property tax to support the operation of the streetcar, and the City should have no problem collecting increased tax revenue. In this way, the city is analagous to the big box store that provides a portion of the transportation infrastructure in reture for sales. The fact that we are talking about fares does little to boost my confidence in the streetcar. Either it will bring the development, or it won't. If it does, there should be no problem funding the operation cost. If it does not, then it will require a "subsidy" to operate, and there will be constant political pressure to reduce the operation subsidy, which will leave no funds available for improvement. I don't think UO'ers would be so paranoid about this project coming to fruition if we didn't feel that the streetcar is OTR's only chance.
March 5, 201114 yr The subway/light rail in Los Angeles doesn't use turnstiles, and instead just makes riders buy a ticket and carry it on them. Police officers will board the trains every once in a while and check to make sure you have a valid ticket. If you don't have one, the fine is something ridiculous, I believe over $300. As a result, the vast majority of people still buy tickets even though the majority of the time you could ride for free and not get caught. There installing them , Boston has them on the Downtown light rail stops , NJT plans on installing them , so does Baltimore....
March 5, 201114 yr I like to compare this system to driving on the highway. Cops sit in medians an pull over speeders every once in a while. Does is stop everyone from speeding...no. Does it make people think twice about their speed and prevents many from doing so...yes. If it is noticed that the collective driving community has disregarded the traffic laws, they step up patrol. I very much like this comparison!
March 6, 201114 yr The subway/light rail in Los Angeles doesn't use turnstiles, and instead just makes riders buy a ticket and carry it on them. Police officers will board the trains every once in a while and check to make sure you have a valid ticket. If you don't have one, the fine is something ridiculous, I believe over $300. As a result, the vast majority of people still buy tickets even though the majority of the time you could ride for free and not get caught. There installing them , Boston has them on the Downtown light rail stops , NJT plans on installing them , so does Baltimore.... Yeah I know they're installing them on some of the Red Line subway, but I think most of the other light rail lines aren't installing them. Could be wrong though. I think the ones they are installing are the kind where you have to put your ticket through at the beginning and end of your ride ala the DC Metro.
March 8, 201114 yr Sorry to not be up to date, but is there a new estimate as to when construction will begin? The sooner the better.
March 8, 201114 yr Did anyone else see something on the evening news about Cecil Thomas threatening to change his vote re: accepting money if some of his projects weren't discussed? I'm only hearing this second hand.
March 8, 201114 yr ^ I heard that too- about 6PM this evening. Pretty pathetic if it's true. Hoping it's not.
March 8, 201114 yr Sorry to not be up to date, but is there a new estimate as to when construction will begin? The sooner the better. Waiting for approval of the environmental scan- Hope is by the end of the month.
March 8, 201114 yr "Councilmember Thomas Could Change Vote on Streetcar Project": http://www.wvxu.org/news/wvxunews_article.asp?ID=8597 email: [email protected]
March 8, 201114 yr Sorry to not be up to date, but is there a new estimate as to when construction will begin? The sooner the better. Waiting for approval of the environmental scan- Hope is by the end of the month. At this point, I won't believe any schedule of construction until I actually see the project being constructed.
March 8, 201114 yr "Councilmember Thomas Could Change Vote on Streetcar Project": http://www.wvxu.org/news/wvxunews_article.asp?ID=8597 email: [email protected] What's his deal? So if he changes his votes and doesn't accept those grants, pools will still be closed, that nurse will still go unfunded. Is this the same guy who put together that powerpoint of his "bus trolley" system as an alternative to the streetcar?
March 8, 201114 yr "Councilmember Thomas Could Change Vote on Streetcar Project": http://www.wvxu.org/news/wvxunews_article.asp?ID=8597 email: [email protected] What's his deal? So if he changes his votes and doesn't accept those grants, pools will still be closed, that nurse will still go unfunded. Is this the same guy who put together that powerpoint of his "bus trolley" system as an alternative to the streetcar? No, I think that was Charlie Winburn. Thomas has been a supporter throughout his time on council. Hopefully, it is just political posturing and nothing more will come of it. Hopefully, he is just using this as a way to voice his displeasure over potential cuts, but will not end up voting against the streetcar. He is an intelligent man. I'm sure he realizes those grants cannot be used for pools, nurses, etc.
March 8, 201114 yr "Councilmember Thomas Could Change Vote on Streetcar Project": http://www.wvxu.org/news/wvxunews_article.asp?ID=8597 email: [email protected] What's his deal? So if he changes his votes and doesn't accept those grants, pools will still be closed, that nurse will still go unfunded. Is this the same guy who put together that powerpoint of his "bus trolley" system as an alternative to the streetcar? No, I think that was Charlie Winburn. Thomas has been a supporter throughout his time on council. Hopefully, it is just political posturing and nothing more will come of it. Hopefully, he is just using this as a way to voice his displeasure over potential cuts, but will not end up voting against the streetcar. He is an intelligent man. I'm sure he realizes those grants cannot be used for pools, nurses, etc. Gotcha, thanks! Come to think of it - that was Winburn, thanks for the correction.
March 9, 201114 yr Chances are Kasich is going to yank the $51 million from the project http://news.cincinnati.com/article/20110308/NEWS0108/103090347/State-may-yank-streetcar-money?odyssey=tab|topnews|text|FRONTPAGE Not nearly as optimistic for this project at the moment between the construction delays, thomas threatening to change his vote, probable removal of state funds, and an anti rail petition along with anti city bias in cincinnati.com and 700wlw
March 9, 201114 yr Has the highest rated TRAC project ever been "vetoed" by a Governor? "It's just fate, as usual, keeping its bargain and screwing us in the fine print..." - John Crichton
March 9, 201114 yr Still Hope http://www.bizjournals.com/cincinnati/blog/2011/02/transportation-officials-readying.html Even it lines up against streetcar funding, Cincinnati's streetcar project could retain state funding. Murphysaid the panel voted 8-0 in favor of the Cincinnati project in December, with one member absent. ODOT Director Jerry Wray counts as one of nine votes on the panel. Read more: Transportation officials readying stance on streetcars | Business Courier
March 9, 201114 yr ^ With a former asphalt lobbyist as Director of ODOT, I don't see a favorable stance happening anytime soon. “All truly great thoughts are conceived while walking.” -Friedrich Nietzsche
March 9, 201114 yr Strickland was corrupt and ineffective at even formulating a stance on education, but he did see the light when it came to economic catalysts, the casinos and the corridor rail project. Kasich is corrupt, will be extremely disruptive to Ohio's schools, AND is such a crony of big oil and banks that he won't even consider dragging his state into the 20th century with rail transit. Is Ohio doomed forever?
March 9, 201114 yr Not nearly as optimistic for this project at the moment between the construction delays, thomas threatening to change his vote, probable removal of state funds, and an anti rail petition along with anti city bias in cincinnati.com and 700wlw +1 "Someone is sitting in the shade today because someone planted a tree a long time ago." - Warren Buffett
March 9, 201114 yr ^Ditto. Calling Kasich's office is about as good as signing online petitions to keep the streetcar from being defunded.
March 9, 201114 yr Keep the faith. It's not over by a long shot. I agree with John....we need to keep pushing forward.
March 9, 201114 yr Anyone knows what do local businesses think of the Streetcar and transportation? Eg. Proctor and Gamble? Talk about killing momentum. WOW
March 9, 201114 yr The comments on the Enquirer’s article seem to be strangely balanced (http://news.cincinnati.com/article/20110308/NEWS0108/103090347/State-may-yank-streetcar-money)
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