April 7, 201114 yr Letter to the editor: http://cincinnati.com/blogs/letters/2011/04/07/streetcar-bashing/ Up until now, I've usually commented once or twice on each anti-streetcar item in The Enquirer. But I'm wondering if it wouldn't be smarter to completely ignore them from now on? Here's why: their anti-streetcar pieces are usually at or near the top of their most-commented list. If streetcar proponents didn't chime in and trigger debate, there'd end up being MUCH fewer comments from opponents -- some Amen-like remarks and that would be it. Besides, the ability to give a thumbs up or down to each remark is merely a device to assure that commenters will visit the site even more frequently. I'm mindful it's in The Enquirer's financial interest to boost hit counts, and I could be wrong but there seems to be more advertizing on their site lately. So, I no longer want to play their game and essentially contribute to their financial wherewithal. Cancelling print edition subscriptions to The Enquirer has been talked about here on UO but it's my contention that boycotting their website may hurt just as much if not more.
April 7, 201114 yr Letter to the editor: http://cincinnati.com/blogs/letters/2011/04/07/streetcar-bashing/ I don't agree (at all) with the Columbus/Cleveland quote but otherwise well done response. "You don't just walk into a bar and mix it up by calling a girl fat" - buildingcincinnati speaking about new forumers
April 7, 201114 yr ^Yes-- my apologies to folks in Columbus and Cleveland, both of which are terrific cities that I think are great. I was trying to come up with a way to analogize for Enquirer readers who base everything on comparisons (generally where they say Cincy is more crime-ridden, high-tax, etc.). If I had to do again I would not use that bit, but I couldn't think of another comparison that would resonate for most. Sorry.
April 7, 201114 yr (Also I did it in about 4 minutes online, which did not give me the chance to go back after submitting it and rethink that point. :( )
April 7, 201114 yr Up until now, I've usually commented once or twice on each anti-streetcar item in The Enquirer. But I'm wondering if it wouldn't be smarter to completely ignore them from now on? Here's why: their anti-streetcar pieces are usually at or near the top of their most-commented list. If streetcar proponents didn't chime in and trigger debate, there'd end up being MUCH fewer comments from opponents -- some Amen-like remarks and that would be it. Besides, the ability to give a thumbs up or down to each remark is merely a device to assure that commenters will visit the site even more frequently. I'm mindful it's in The Enquirer's financial interest to boost hit counts, and I could be wrong but there seems to be more advertizing on their site lately. So, I no longer want to play their game and essentially contribute to their financial wherewithal. Cancelling print edition subscriptions to The Enquirer has been talked about here on UO but it's my contention that boycotting their website may hurt just as much if not more. That's a reasonable solution. I hope proponents have the discipline to follow through. "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
April 7, 201114 yr Up until now, I've usually commented once or twice on each anti-streetcar item in The Enquirer. But I'm wondering if it wouldn't be smarter to completely ignore them from now on? Here's why: their anti-streetcar pieces are usually at or near the top of their most-commented list. If streetcar proponents didn't chime in and trigger debate, there'd end up being MUCH fewer comments from opponents -- some Amen-like remarks and that would be it. Besides, the ability to give a thumbs up or down to each remark is merely a device to assure that commenters will visit the site even more frequently. I'm mindful it's in The Enquirer's financial interest to boost hit counts, and I could be wrong but there seems to be more advertizing on their site lately. So, I no longer want to play their game and essentially contribute to their financial wherewithal. Cancelling print edition subscriptions to The Enquirer has been talked about here on UO but it's my contention that boycotting their website may hurt just as much if not more. That's a reasonable solution. I hope proponents have the discipline to follow through. I've rarely commented on there. It's just impossible to argue with someone who says "Streetcars are communism, plain and simple, and I don't want Cincinnati to be like Russia"
April 7, 201114 yr Up until now, I've usually commented once or twice on each anti-streetcar item in The Enquirer. But I'm wondering if it wouldn't be smarter to completely ignore them from now on? Here's why: their anti-streetcar pieces are usually at or near the top of their most-commented list. If streetcar proponents didn't chime in and trigger debate, there'd end up being MUCH fewer comments from opponents -- some Amen-like remarks and that would be it. Besides, the ability to give a thumbs up or down to each remark is merely a device to assure that commenters will visit the site even more frequently. I'm mindful it's in The Enquirer's financial interest to boost hit counts, and I could be wrong but there seems to be more advertizing on their site lately. So, I no longer want to play their game and essentially contribute to their financial wherewithal. Cancelling print edition subscriptions to The Enquirer has been talked about here on UO but it's my contention that boycotting their website may hurt just as much if not more. That's a reasonable solution. I hope proponents have the discipline to follow through. I've rarely commented on there. It's just impossible to argue with someone who says "Streetcars are communism, plain and simple, and I don't want Cincinnati to be like Russia" Does that mean, if you live on the streetcar line, you will be able to see Russia from your house?
April 7, 201114 yr Up until now, I've usually commented once or twice on each anti-streetcar item in The Enquirer. But I'm wondering if it wouldn't be smarter to completely ignore them from now on? Here's why: their anti-streetcar pieces are usually at or near the top of their most-commented list. If streetcar proponents didn't chime in and trigger debate, there'd end up being MUCH fewer comments from opponents -- some Amen-like remarks and that would be it. Besides, the ability to give a thumbs up or down to each remark is merely a device to assure that commenters will visit the site even more frequently. I'm mindful it's in The Enquirer's financial interest to boost hit counts, and I could be wrong but there seems to be more advertizing on their site lately. So, I no longer want to play their game and essentially contribute to their financial wherewithal. Cancelling print edition subscriptions to The Enquirer has been talked about here on UO but it's my contention that boycotting their website may hurt just as much if not more. That's a reasonable solution. I hope proponents have the discipline to follow through. I've rarely commented on there. It's just impossible to argue with someone who says "Streetcars are communism, plain and simple, and I don't want Cincinnati to be like Russia" Does that mean, if you live on the streetcar line, you will be able to see Russia from your house? Are you telling me that the government is shutting down because Cincinnati is building a communist streetcar!?!
April 7, 201114 yr "The Enquirer is a private business. Compete with them by offering a better product." How about compete with them by constructing a privately owned streetcar? (I know, I know, all forms of transportation are subsidized and no private company can afford to build a private streetcar. Or so they say...) :wink: I really can't stand this silly argument. I hear it all the time, and it reminds us that people don't put thought into anything they say. I want all our streets privatized! Why don't I pay a toll when I pull out of my drive way every day? That is the only way that roads would be profitable. Think of the MASSIVE repair costs on roads. Pot holes etc. Is there ANY mass transit system that annually has all of its rail lines repaired from giant holes that can damage the vehicles that drive upon them? No! Amtrak covers 80% of its operating costs at the fairbox. How much money do our roads cover? 0%. Yes, half of the component to drive cars is privatized (cars) but even cars get massive government subsidies (bailouts, tax incentives, gas subsidies, etc.) It's pure poppycock! Yup., there. I said it! haha
April 7, 201114 yr Allright, I feel like I need to respond to two comments about the public/private ownership. In Ohio, railroads are thought of as private, and they have to pay property taxes. Highways are thought of as public, and they are funded by the government. But the proposed streetcar is neither a railroad nor a highway. In Ohio, Streetcar lines are utilities, and have essentially the same standing under the law as the water company. Streetcar lines DO NOT pay property taxes; they occupy the street under the consent of the local government that maintains the street. Sometimes utilities are private corporations, and sometimes utilities are operated by municipalities. In Cincinnati, at least 5 different communications companies, the gas company, the electric company, and a private water company operate utilities in the street. In Cincinnati, the Cincinnati Water Works and Metropolitan Sewer District operate water and sewer utilities. If the City of Cincinnati were to build and operate the streetcar, the City still has to follow state laws. The City would not have to pay property taxes to itself. But even if the streetcar were operated by a private company, the streetcar line would still not have to pay property taxes on the track in the street. They may have to pay taxes on maintenance facilities or other property. They may also be required to pave the street between the tracks. But streetcar lines in Ohio DO NOT pay property taxes. "Why don't I pay a toll when I pull out of my driveway every day? That would be the only way that roads would be profitable." Depending on where you live, you probably DO pay a toll. It's just that it's not a toll based on the number of times you use it. It's based on a yearly rate, and called property tax. Unless you have to live on a state highway, where the road is paid courtesy of gasoline taxes and other sources. (There are also license plate fees and others.) There is no technical reason why the government could not operate a railroad at it's expense for the benefit of the citizens. In fact, many city bus systems are subsidized this way. (Why are highways "funded" and transit systems "subsidized?") But there is a political reason, and that is that the electorate has decided that railroads will recieve a minimum of government funding. If gasoline taxes were dedicated to transit instead of highways, my guess is that we would have more transit and fewer highways. Europe does this. If highways were tolled and the proceeds dedicated to transit, my guess is that we would have more transit and fewer highways. The New York Port Authority does this. So the bottom line is that while we discuss the technical merits of one form over another and bash one form over another for being "unfair," the real issue is that one form has a more reliable source of funding than the other, and that's what makes all the difference.
April 7, 201114 yr Can this really be true? Barry Hortsman just wrote an article on the streetcar thats actually positive!?! http://cincinnati.com/blogs/politics/2011/04/07/new-study-old-streetcar-conclusions/
April 8, 201114 yr ^Well, it's not so much positive as it is merely stating the findings of the study. At no point does the author make any positive comments that aren't essentially quotes from the study itself. It's not the typical negative article we're all used too, but I wouldn't call it positive either.
April 8, 201114 yr and it's not that positive--note the point at the end implying it was a conspiracy to release this study before the TRAC vote.
April 8, 201114 yr I don't want mass transit to be at the mercy of private investors any more than I'd want to shop in a government-run grocery store. Yes, but this makes me wonder: how much could be made via advertising on the streetcars? How about naming rights to each car/route/etc? I support whatever gets it running.
April 8, 201114 yr Check out Portland streetcar sponsors. Car Sponsors: BridgePort Brewing Company, 1313 NW Marshall, Portland, OR 97209, 503-241-3612, www.bridgeportbrew.com Hoyt Realty Group, 1130 NW 10th Avenue, Portland, OR 97209, www.liveinthepearl.com Legacy Health System, 1919 NW Lovejoy, Portland, OR 97209, www.legacyhealth.org Oregon Health & Science University, 3181 SW Sam Jackson Road, Portland, OR 97239, www.ohsu.edu Pearl District Merchants, 1022 NW Marshall St, Suite 500, Portland, OR 97209, www.explorethepearl.com The Portland Clinic, 800 SW 13th Avenue, Portland, OR 97205, www.theportlandclinic.com Portland General Electric, 121 SW Salmon, Portland, OR 97204, www.portlandgeneral.com Portland State University, Portland, OR 97207, www.pdx.edu Powell's Books, 7 NW 9th, Portland, OR 97209, www.powells.com United Finance, 515 E Burnside, Portland, OR 97208, 503-232-5153, www.unitedfinance.com Stop Sponsors: The Ardea Apartments, 3720 SW Bond Ave, Portland, OR 97239, 503-445-0990, www.theardea.com BridgePort Brewing Company, 1313 NW Marshall, Portland, OR 97209, 503-241-3612, www.bridgeportbrew.com Cyan Portland, 1720 SW 4th Ave, Portland, OR 97201, 503-802-1041, www.cyanpdx.com Debbie Thomas Real Estate, 402 NW 13th Avenue, Portland, OR 97209, www.debbiethomas.com Hanna Andersson, 1010 NW Flanders, Portland, OR 97209, www.hannaandersson.com HDR Engineering, 1001 SW 5th Avenue, #1800, Portland, OR 97204, www.hdrinc.com Hoyt Realty Group, 1130 NW 10th Avenue, Portland, OR 97209, www.hoytrealtygroup.com Indigo @ Twelve West, 430 SW 13th Ave, Portland, OR 97209, 503-546-1286, www.indigo12west.com Inn at Northrup Station, 2025 NW Northrup, Portland, OR 97209, www.northrupstation.com Julie Lawrence Yoga Center, 1020 SW Taylor, Suite 780, Portland, OR 97205, 503-227-5524, www.jlyc.com Legacy Good Samaritan Hospital, 1919 NW Lovejoy, Portland, OR 97209, www.legacyhealth.org Linfield College, 2255 NW Northrup, Portland, OR 97210, www.linfield.edu/portland The Matisse Apartments, 0677 SW Lowell St, Portland, OR 97239, 1-888-710-6061, www.thematisse.com Nob Hill Business Association, Northwest District, www.nobhillbiz.com Oregon Health & Science University, 3181 SW Sam Jackson Park Road, Portland, OR 97239, www.ohsu.edu Portland Condos, LLC, 503-228-3149, www.portlandcondos.com Portland State Bookstore, 1715 SW 5th, Portland, OR 97201, www.portlandstatebookstore.com Residence Inn by Marriott, 2115 SW River Parkway, Portland, OR 97201 Riva on the Park, 0650 SW Gaines St, Portland, OR 97239, 503-274-2300, www.rivaonthepark.com RiverPlace Merchants Association, RiverPlace Sitka Apartments, NW 12th/Northrup, www.thesitka.com Umpqua Bank, NW 12th and Lovejoy, Portland, OR 97209, www.umpquabank.com Shelter Glass Panel Etching Sponsors: Ankrom Moisan Associated Architects Eliot Tower Gerding Edlen Development Hoyt Realty Group Oregon Health & Science University John Russell Development Williams & Dame Development, Inc. / North Macadam Investors, LLC. Ride & Dine Sponsors: Andina Restaurant, 1314 NW Glisan, 503-228-9535 www.andinarestaurant.com Aura Restaurant & Lounge, 1022 W Burnside, 503-597-2872 www.auraportland.com Bewon Korean Restaurant, 1203 NW 23rd, 503-463-9222 Bridgeport Brewpub, 1313 NW Marshall, 503-241-3612 Cloud Seven Café, 901 NW 10th, 503-336-1335 www.cloudsevencafe.com Deschutes Brewery & Public House, 210 NW 11th, 503-296-4906 Fenouil, 900 NW 11th, 503-525-2225 Fish Grotto Seafood Restaurant & Wine Bar, 1035 SW Stark, 503-226-4171 Jake’s Famous Crawfish- Since 1892, 401 SW 12th, 503-226-1419 Jake’s Grill, 611 SW 10th, 503-220-1850 Laurelwood NW Public House, 2327 NW Kearny, 503-228-5553 Lovejoy Bakers, 939 NW 10th, 503-208-3113 www.lovejoybakers.com Lovejoy Station Café, 1015 NW 22nd, 503-413-7099 Marrakesh Moroccan Restaurant, 1201 NW 21st, 503-248-9442 www.marrakeshportland.com Martinotti’s Café and Deli, 404 SW 10th, 503-224-9028 Masu Sushi, 406 SW 13th, 503-221-6278 McCormick & Schmick’s Harborside at the Marina, 0309 SW Montgomery, 503-220-1865 New Old Lompoc, 1616 NW 23rd, 503-225-1855 The Old Spaghetti Factory, 0715 SW Bancroft, 503-222-5375 www.osf.com On Deck Sports Bar & Grill, 910 NW 14th, 503-227-7020 Pearl Bakery, 102 NW 9th, 503-827-0910 Pearl Specialty Market & Spirits, 900 NW Lovejoy #140, 503-477-8604 Pizzicato - NW 23rd, 505 NW 23rd, 503-242-0023 www.pizzicatopizza.com Pizzicato - PSU, 1708 SW 6th, 503-227-5800 www.pizzicatopizza.com Technique, 600 SW 10th, 503-294-9770 Virginia Café, 820 SW 10th, 503-227-0033 Brochure Sponsors: Hoyt Realty Group, 1130 NW 10th Ave, Portland, OR 97209, www.liveinthepearl.com Inn at Northrup Station, 2025 NW Northrup, Portland, OR 97209 Legacy Good Samaritan Hospital, 1919 NW Lovejoy, Portland, OR 97209 RiverPlace Hotel / Three Degrees Restaurant, 1510 SW Harbor Way, Portland, OR 97201 http://www.portlandstreetcar.org/node/35
April 8, 201114 yr and it's not that positive--note the point at the end implying it was a conspiracy to release this study before the TRAC vote. Well, yes its not positive in the sense of what a normal positive sounding article would entail, but compared to the typical neo-nazi sounding propaganda he usually writes its a refreshing change.
April 8, 201114 yr and it's not that positive--note the point at the end implying it was a conspiracy to release this study before the TRAC vote. Well, yes its not positive in the sense of what a normal positive sounding article would entail, but compared to the typical neo-nazi sounding propaganda he usually writes its a refreshing change. True. But I never once saw it on the front page. I still can't find the blog unless I search "Streetcar" in the search section. If this had been negative results the study found, it would be front page for probably a day
April 8, 201114 yr and it's not that positive--note the point at the end implying it was a conspiracy to release this study before the TRAC vote. ... typical neo-nazi sounding propaganda ... Refreshing to hear the liberals chat about the conservatives so well.
April 8, 201114 yr "Why don't I pay a toll when I pull out of my driveway every day? That would be the only way that roads would be profitable." Depending on where you live, you probably DO pay a toll. It's just that it's not a toll based on the number of times you use it. It's based on a yearly rate, and called property tax. Unless you have to live on a state highway, where the road is paid courtesy of gasoline taxes and other sources. You're missing the point. Property tax is not a user fee on drivers of automobiles. Everyone who owns property in the county pays property tax whether or not they drive a car. So, let's take the property tax that's spent on road maintenance and spend part of it on streetcar operations instead -- wouldn't that be fair?
April 8, 201114 yr "Why don't I pay a toll when I pull out of my driveway every day? That would be the only way that roads would be profitable." Depending on where you live, you probably DO pay a toll. It's just that it's not a toll based on the number of times you use it. It's based on a yearly rate, and called property tax. Unless you have to live on a state highway, where the road is paid courtesy of gasoline taxes and other sources. You're missing the point. Property tax is not a user fee on drivers of automobiles. Everyone who owns property in the county pays property tax whether or not they drive a car. So, let's take the property tax that's spent on road maintenance and spend part of it on streetcar operations instead -- wouldn't that be fair? ^ Swish! Travis nails a three-pointer!
April 8, 201114 yr ^Well, it's not so much positive as it is merely stating the findings of the study. At no point does the author make any positive comments that aren't essentially quotes from the study itself. It's not the typical negative article we're all used too, but I wouldn't call it positive either. I just tried to access the article and it said "Forbidden." ???
April 8, 201114 yr ^Well, it's not so much positive as it is merely stating the findings of the study. At no point does the author make any positive comments that aren't essentially quotes from the study itself. It's not the typical negative article we're all used too, but I wouldn't call it positive either. I just tried to access the article and it said "Forbidden." Never mind. I found it...but it certainly is buried.
April 8, 201114 yr "Why don't I pay a toll when I pull out of my driveway every day? That would be the only way that roads would be profitable." Depending on where you live, you probably DO pay a toll. It's just that it's not a toll based on the number of times you use it. It's based on a yearly rate, and called property tax. Unless you have to live on a state highway, where the road is paid courtesy of gasoline taxes and other sources. You're missing the point. Property tax is not a user fee on drivers of automobiles. Everyone who owns property in the county pays property tax whether or not they drive a car. So, let's take the property tax that's spent on road maintenance and spend part of it on streetcar operations instead -- wouldn't that be fair? Even though someone does not own a car that means they do not benefit from well maintained, passable streets and highways
April 8, 201114 yr "Why don't I pay a toll when I pull out of my driveway every day? That would be the only way that roads would be profitable." Depending on where you live, you probably DO pay a toll. It's just that it's not a toll based on the number of times you use it. It's based on a yearly rate, and called property tax. Unless you have to live on a state highway, where the road is paid courtesy of gasoline taxes and other sources. You're missing the point. Property tax is not a user fee on drivers of automobiles. Everyone who owns property in the county pays property tax whether or not they drive a car. So, let's take the property tax that's spent on road maintenance and spend part of it on streetcar operations instead -- wouldn't that be fair? Even though someone does not own a car that means they do not benefit from well maintained, passable streets and highways But they clearly do not benefit in the same amount as someone who drives/owns a car.
April 8, 201114 yr ^That is correct, but the benefit might not be as minuscule as folks conventionally think when you factor in the ability to move goods to their final destination via the roads, rubber tire transit and other modes that share street r/w, EMS and fire service, the ability to carry utilities and storm-water drainage in the street r/w, the presence of communications infrastructure in street R/W, etc.
April 8, 201114 yr ^ but everyone gets that regardless of vehicle ownership. The difference is the car. What is the value of that benefit? Is there a way to quantify it? Is there are way to level the playing field?
April 8, 201114 yr ^That is correct, but the benefit might not be as minuscule as folks conventionally think when you factor in the ability to move goods to their final destination via the roads, rubber tire transit and other modes that share street r/w, EMS and fire service, the ability to carry utilities and storm-water drainage in the street r/w, the presence of communications infrastructure in street R/W, etc. All of which must be much more extensive because of the lower density promoted by the roads. A benefit cannot exist unto itself.
April 8, 201114 yr ^ but everyone gets that regardless of vehicle ownership. The difference is the car. What is the value of that benefit? Is there a way to quantify it? Is there are way to level the playing field? I suppose the fixed costs for maintaining streets and roads as public right of way for all and as conduits for utilities and communications could be separated from the costs to maintain and expand for vehicular traffic could easily be assessed on all property owners
April 8, 201114 yr ^ It's not easy when you consider sprawl induced by the funding structure. Less roads would require less utilities, less travel distance for freight, less parking, etc. Costs which appear to be only for vehicular traffic on the surface actually jack up the cost of other things you mention. Now how do you separate them?
April 8, 201114 yr Don't people get benefits from rail, too? Better air quality, less expensive goods, etc. from the rail infrastructure?
April 8, 201114 yr In reference to property taxes for roads/streets. The amount is small and typically not enough to fund capacity improvements, and is usually used for maintenance. For example, the City of Cincy typically has to cull together a myriad of funds to perform capacity improvements, such as Issue 2 (SCIP/LTIP) Bonds, and MRF funds (License Plate fees)
April 8, 201114 yr You're missing the point. Property tax is not a user fee on drivers of automobiles. Everyone who owns property in the county pays property tax whether or not they drive a car. So, let's take the property tax that's spent on road maintenance and spend part of it on streetcar operations instead -- wouldn't that be fair? No, I'm not missing the point. I am agreeing with you, mostly. Property tax is a method to raise revenue for collective use. The local government can spend that revenue on anything it wants to, including streetcars, subject to state law and the terms of the tax. Most local governments dedicate a certain amount of funding to improvement of the pavement, with a priority on automobile use, but they are not limited to that. Besides as a passage for automobiles, there are many other uses for streets: 1. Pedestrian and bicycle passage 2. Storage of automobiles (parking.) 3. Location to place underground and overhead utilities. 4. Playground for children. 5. Place to have a parade, political demonstration or street party. 6. Staging area for fighting fires. 7. Place for street vendors. 8. Passage for streetcars. And so on. Unfortunately, most local governments design streets first for automobiles and second for all the other uses, but it doesn't have to be that way. Like I mentioned previously, in Ohio Streetcars have essentially the same legal standing as other utilities such as water, sewer, electric, etc. The proposed Cincinnati Streetcar varies from the historic streetcar lines in that it would be operated by a municipality instead of a private company. There is no legal reason why a private company couldn't build a streetcar line in a public street today. (Under Ohio law, Streetcars are different from Railroads in this way.) So to get back to your question - would it be fair to divert property tax revenue from autmobile infrastructure to streetcar infrastructure? I'm not to say whether it's "fair" or not, but it would be legal as long as it complies with state law and the terms of the tax passed by the voters. Whether it is good policy depends on your point of view. So far, the City of Cincinnati has NOT decided to use general property tax revenue to fund the streetcar, and no new property levies have been placed on the ballot. Instead, they propose to use NEW sources of revenue, such as TRAC funds or whatever. This has been convenient for politicians, since they did not have to risk any of their current funding and make someone else angry. (I'm all for cutting government waste, but don't cut MY budget!) When the TRAC funding or whatever falls through, City Council can just blame it on the governor or someone else. Note that the Metro Moves plan would have initiated a new tax for a county-wide system that included a streetcar very similar to the recent proposal. We all know that it failed. If instead, a new, smaller, tax was proposed that only raised enough money for the streetcar, we would have what you are talking about. John keeps telling us that Metro Moves did well in the urban core, so I wonder what might have happened if Metro Moves had been scaled down to the streetcar only.
April 8, 201114 yr ^ In fact, not a single group who opposes it, would have changed their mind if it was done the way Eighth and State explained it. They oppose it on idealogical grounds- that streetcars do not lead to growth and development and that no one wants to live near one.
April 8, 201114 yr So, maybe COAST will always oppose any kind of rail. But COAST isn't the reason why the Cincinnati Streetcar hasn't been built yet. The reason why the Cincinnati Streetcar hasn't been built is because the proponents have not come up with a viable business model to fund it.
April 8, 201114 yr Many in COAST won't be satisfied until they can stand on the smouldering wreckage of what was once Cincinnati and proclaim the return of 'god's city' with a plan to perfectly reproduce Cincinnati 1962. Even then the memory of the intervening years would still bother them. The truly radical and destructive nature of COAST/Tea Party forces is something that we should remember, mention to others and use to our advantage whenever we can in building urban political coalitions.
April 8, 201114 yr If a viable business model is required to build transportation projects today, none will be built. The interstate system certainly wouldn't have been. Investment in transportation is investment in an area. If we aren't willing to make such a case for streetcars, I don't know how we can make such a case for anything else in Cincinnati.
April 8, 201114 yr ^ I think you missed the point. The Interstates HAVE a viable business model - they collect sales tax on gasoline to fund highways. The stadiums have a business model - They raised money for construction by selling bonds backed by a sales tax. Queen City Metro has a business model - they collect about 17% of their budget from fares, about 4% from advertising, and the rest from an earnings tax on workers in the City of Cincinnati. A business model can include public revenue from some kind of tax. What I am saying is that so far, the streetcar proponents have NOT come up with a funding mechanism that works - whether it includes a public funding source or not.
April 9, 201114 yr ^ Casino to Pay for Streetcars http://news.cincinnati.com/article/20100930/NEWS0108/309300053/Casino-pay-streetcars
April 9, 201114 yr ^ Better than nothing, but only addresses operating costs. The article is hilarious, saying that Leslie Ghiz went to the bathroon during the meeting and missed the vote because the others voted in her absence.
April 9, 201114 yr I just searched the internet for a photo of Leslie Ghiz and found this: It came from a political site bashing the streetcar. I've never seen this site before. Is this the way political campaigns are run on the internet these days?
April 9, 201114 yr I can't see the graphic on my phone if you posted one; I'll have to come back here on my laptop. I think she's gorgeous--atleast she was when I lived in Cincinnati. She was the only reason I watched public access or C-Span or whatever they showed boring council meetings on. I would switch to Conservatism for her <3 .
April 9, 201114 yr So, maybe COAST will always oppose any kind of rail. But COAST isn't the reason why the Cincinnati Streetcar hasn't been built yet. The reason why the Cincinnati Streetcar hasn't been built is because the proponents have not come up with a viable business model to fund it. Seems to me the reason it hasn't been built yet is because we were waiting on an environmental assessment to be completed. Now that that's done, the governor and Shannon Jones decided to add an amendment to the budget bill attempting to keep state funding from the streetcar and until that's resolved the plan is temporarily halted pending a TRAC vote. Then after that how much of it gets built.
April 9, 201114 yr thank you unusualfire! the people managing the streetcar need to get proactive and start doing this sort of work. where's that list of businesses who support the streetcar anyway? Check out Portland streetcar sponsors. Car Sponsors: BridgePort Brewing Company, 1313 NW Marshall, Portland, OR 97209, 503-241-3612, www.bridgeportbrew.com Hoyt Realty Group, 1130 NW 10th Avenue, Portland, OR 97209, www.liveinthepearl.com Legacy Health System, 1919 NW Lovejoy, Portland, OR 97209, www.legacyhealth.org Oregon Health & Science University, 3181 SW Sam Jackson Road, Portland, OR 97239, www.ohsu.edu Pearl District Merchants, 1022 NW Marshall St, Suite 500, Portland, OR 97209, www.explorethepearl.com The Portland Clinic, 800 SW 13th Avenue, Portland, OR 97205, www.theportlandclinic.com Portland General Electric, 121 SW Salmon, Portland, OR 97204, www.portlandgeneral.com Portland State University, Portland, OR 97207, www.pdx.edu Powell's Books, 7 NW 9th, Portland, OR 97209, www.powells.com United Finance, 515 E Burnside, Portland, OR 97208, 503-232-5153, www.unitedfinance.com Stop Sponsors: The Ardea Apartments, 3720 SW Bond Ave, Portland, OR 97239, 503-445-0990, www.theardea.com BridgePort Brewing Company, 1313 NW Marshall, Portland, OR 97209, 503-241-3612, www.bridgeportbrew.com Cyan Portland, 1720 SW 4th Ave, Portland, OR 97201, 503-802-1041, www.cyanpdx.com Debbie Thomas Real Estate, 402 NW 13th Avenue, Portland, OR 97209, www.debbiethomas.com Hanna Andersson, 1010 NW Flanders, Portland, OR 97209, www.hannaandersson.com HDR Engineering, 1001 SW 5th Avenue, #1800, Portland, OR 97204, www.hdrinc.com Hoyt Realty Group, 1130 NW 10th Avenue, Portland, OR 97209, www.hoytrealtygroup.com Indigo @ Twelve West, 430 SW 13th Ave, Portland, OR 97209, 503-546-1286, www.indigo12west.com Inn at Northrup Station, 2025 NW Northrup, Portland, OR 97209, www.northrupstation.com Julie Lawrence Yoga Center, 1020 SW Taylor, Suite 780, Portland, OR 97205, 503-227-5524, www.jlyc.com Legacy Good Samaritan Hospital, 1919 NW Lovejoy, Portland, OR 97209, www.legacyhealth.org Linfield College, 2255 NW Northrup, Portland, OR 97210, www.linfield.edu/portland The Matisse Apartments, 0677 SW Lowell St, Portland, OR 97239, 1-888-710-6061, www.thematisse.com Nob Hill Business Association, Northwest District, www.nobhillbiz.com Oregon Health & Science University, 3181 SW Sam Jackson Park Road, Portland, OR 97239, www.ohsu.edu Portland Condos, LLC, 503-228-3149, www.portlandcondos.com Portland State Bookstore, 1715 SW 5th, Portland, OR 97201, www.portlandstatebookstore.com Residence Inn by Marriott, 2115 SW River Parkway, Portland, OR 97201 Riva on the Park, 0650 SW Gaines St, Portland, OR 97239, 503-274-2300, www.rivaonthepark.com RiverPlace Merchants Association, RiverPlace Sitka Apartments, NW 12th/Northrup, www.thesitka.com Umpqua Bank, NW 12th and Lovejoy, Portland, OR 97209, www.umpquabank.com Shelter Glass Panel Etching Sponsors: Ankrom Moisan Associated Architects Eliot Tower Gerding Edlen Development Hoyt Realty Group Oregon Health & Science University John Russell Development Williams & Dame Development, Inc. / North Macadam Investors, LLC. Ride & Dine Sponsors: Andina Restaurant, 1314 NW Glisan, 503-228-9535 www.andinarestaurant.com Aura Restaurant & Lounge, 1022 W Burnside, 503-597-2872 www.auraportland.com Bewon Korean Restaurant, 1203 NW 23rd, 503-463-9222 Bridgeport Brewpub, 1313 NW Marshall, 503-241-3612 Cloud Seven Café, 901 NW 10th, 503-336-1335 www.cloudsevencafe.com Deschutes Brewery & Public House, 210 NW 11th, 503-296-4906 Fenouil, 900 NW 11th, 503-525-2225 Fish Grotto Seafood Restaurant & Wine Bar, 1035 SW Stark, 503-226-4171 Jake’s Famous Crawfish- Since 1892, 401 SW 12th, 503-226-1419 Jake’s Grill, 611 SW 10th, 503-220-1850 Laurelwood NW Public House, 2327 NW Kearny, 503-228-5553 Lovejoy Bakers, 939 NW 10th, 503-208-3113 www.lovejoybakers.com Lovejoy Station Café, 1015 NW 22nd, 503-413-7099 Marrakesh Moroccan Restaurant, 1201 NW 21st, 503-248-9442 www.marrakeshportland.com Martinotti’s Café and Deli, 404 SW 10th, 503-224-9028 Masu Sushi, 406 SW 13th, 503-221-6278 McCormick & Schmick’s Harborside at the Marina, 0309 SW Montgomery, 503-220-1865 New Old Lompoc, 1616 NW 23rd, 503-225-1855 The Old Spaghetti Factory, 0715 SW Bancroft, 503-222-5375 www.osf.com On Deck Sports Bar & Grill, 910 NW 14th, 503-227-7020 Pearl Bakery, 102 NW 9th, 503-827-0910 Pearl Specialty Market & Spirits, 900 NW Lovejoy #140, 503-477-8604 Pizzicato - NW 23rd, 505 NW 23rd, 503-242-0023 www.pizzicatopizza.com Pizzicato - PSU, 1708 SW 6th, 503-227-5800 www.pizzicatopizza.com Technique, 600 SW 10th, 503-294-9770 Virginia Café, 820 SW 10th, 503-227-0033 Brochure Sponsors: Hoyt Realty Group, 1130 NW 10th Ave, Portland, OR 97209, www.liveinthepearl.com Inn at Northrup Station, 2025 NW Northrup, Portland, OR 97209 Legacy Good Samaritan Hospital, 1919 NW Lovejoy, Portland, OR 97209 RiverPlace Hotel / Three Degrees Restaurant, 1510 SW Harbor Way, Portland, OR 97201 http://www.portlandstreetcar.org/node/35
April 9, 201114 yr ^ I think you missed the point. The Interstates HAVE a viable business model - they collect sales tax on gasoline to fund highways. The stadiums have a business model - They raised money for construction by selling bonds backed by a sales tax. Queen City Metro has a business model - they collect about 17% of their budget from fares, about 4% from advertising, and the rest from an earnings tax on workers in the City of Cincinnati. A business model can include public revenue from some kind of tax. What I am saying is that so far, the streetcar proponents have NOT come up with a funding mechanism that works - whether it includes a public funding source or not. The highway trust fund is no longer self-replenishing. http://www.logisticsmgmt.com/article/proposed_fiscal_year_2012_budget_represents_increases_for_transportation_fu/
April 9, 201114 yr ^ Better than nothing, but only addresses operating costs. The article is hilarious, saying that Leslie Ghiz went to the bathroon during the meeting and missed the vote because the others voted in her absence. The plan was to seek funding from public and private grants, and to distribute municipal bonds. It was a very successful plan, actually. And it's a plan which has been used to build many things in the past. If what you're saying is there needs to be a system structured to ensure funds for rail projects similar to highway projects, that could be true. Maybe you can suggest some ways that might happen. It seems to me it would be easier to take down some of the highway fund's structural advantage than add a rail funding component. One might be able to convince the fanatical obstructionists to support laws which bind highway spending to gas tax revenue. Or create some sort of mandate about projected ROI for future road projects (though the details of that might be difficult, as projections are inherently subjective...the TRAC board, or something like it, would probably play a significant part in such decisions. And the way things are now, it seems the TRAC board may be easily corrupted). Then, of course, there is no guarantee more rail will be built. But at least DOT's fiscal house will be in order. And with the playing field leveled slightly, there's a better chance for quality transit projects to be built (including rail).
April 9, 201114 yr ^ I think you missed the point. The Interstates HAVE a viable business model - they collect sales tax on gasoline to fund highways. The stadiums have a business model - They raised money for construction by selling bonds backed by a sales tax. Queen City Metro has a business model - they collect about 17% of their budget from fares, about 4% from advertising, and the rest from an earnings tax on workers in the City of Cincinnati. A business model can include public revenue from some kind of tax. What I am saying is that so far, the streetcar proponents have NOT come up with a funding mechanism that works - whether it includes a public funding source or not. Please find out how much the government collects through gas taxes and spends on highways per year. They are NOT equal. Gas taxes no longer cover interstate expenditures.
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