"It seems to me it would be easier to take down some of the highway fund's structural advantage..."

 

Agreed. For every dollar the U.S. federal, state, and local governments spend on rail, they spend hundreds or thousands on highways. Automobiles are tremendously useful; they are free from routes, schedules, and centralized control. However, automobiles and the associated infrastructure have gotten out of hand in this country. They lead to dreadfully awful environments, especially suburban shopping districts with seas of parking lots. Instead of building rail with new funds in addition to all of this, why not switch some funding from automobile-oriented infrastructure to rail?

 

"Gas taxes no longer cover interstate expenditures."

 

Ok, highways are funded from gas tax revenue and other sources. The point is that they have a source of funding.

 

 

 

I thought the point of the streetcar was to grow the property tax base and increase city revenue, which has been predicted even under conservative scenarios.

 

Ultimately, that funding structure is no less uncertain than taxing gas and hoping people buy enough of it to pay for the roads they drive on.

 

Enshrining the streetcar operating budget in a line item is necessary but not ultimately important, not in the context of a declining city that is trying to reverse its trajectory. The skeptic then responds "betting on a growth idea is the realm of venture capital." But the city is the entity structurally poised to gain.

 

So we go round and round and round on this issue. Cincinnati is in an impossible position from this perspective. Unlike a business, it is beholden to some operating costs that arguably do not pay for themselves, while finding it difficult to add costs that could. The electorate speaks to capitalist-style fiscal management, as long as it's selective to their tastes.

 

The worst you could do is pity the city's position.

An interesting article.  Naturally buried so no one can read it

 

http://news.cincinnati.com/article/20110410/BIZ01/104100304/Streetcar-fate-may-derail-man-s-dreams?odyssey=tab%7Ctopnews%7Ctext%7CBusiness

 

"It seems to me it would be easier to take down some of the highway fund's structural advantage..."

 

Agreed. For every dollar the U.S. federal, state, and local governments spend on rail, they spend hundreds or thousands on highways. Automobiles are tremendously useful; they are free from routes, schedules, and centralized control. However, automobiles and the associated infrastructure have gotten out of hand in this country. They lead to dreadfully awful environments, especially suburban shopping districts with seas of parking lots. Instead of building rail with new funds in addition to all of this, why not switch some funding from automobile-oriented infrastructure to rail?

 

"Gas taxes no longer cover interstate expenditures."

 

Ok, highways are funded from gas tax revenue and other sources. The point is that they have a source of funding.

 

A little history... http://www.fhwa.dot.gov/reports/fifahiwy/fifahi05.htm. Greatly explains how the FHTF operates, quite interesting read. The FHTF (Federal Highway Trust Fund) was established in 1956 as part of the Federal Aid Highway Act, as a mechanism to finance and accelerate highway development. Some of the existing user taxes were increased, new ones were enacted, and most of the revenues from that went to the FHTF, which was solely used to finance federal highways. It allowed for provisions for other user taxes and had provided earmarked revenues to finance larger programs, such as the Interstate Highway System.

 

Interesting enough, the Surface Transportation Assistance Act (STAA) (1982) established a Mass Transit Account in the FHTF, which received part of the fuel tax that is applied to automobiles. I think that is around 2.9 cents per gallon of fuel.

 

Look through to see the breakdown of funding for the FHTF, and how it is allocated.

 

The FHTF has been empty since 2008. It requires annual transfers of funds, allocated by Congress, to fill in the hole. For 2008, that was $8 billion. If it wasn't for TEA-21 and SAFETEA-LU, we'd be really screwed in terms of funding and maintenance.

 

  "I thought the point of the streetcar was to grow the property tax base and increase city revenue."

 

    It is. Even so, the capital cost of $128 million needs to be found somewhere. It would be possible to borrow that money and pay back the principal plus interest with the increased property tax revenues, if a lending market could be found. However, in my humble opinion, expecting all the young people to flock to Elm Street to ride the streetcar to the their jobs downtown is a long shot, and the market is not willing to take the risk.

   

    "Cincinnati is in an impossible position from this perspective."

 

    Cincinnati is in a TERRIBLE position. Indeed, Cincinnati has declining revenues and rising expenses. That's a formula for trouble. Granted, only a small part of the total budget is used for transportation infrastructure. The majority of the budget goes for salaries of workers, including police and firefighters, and a huge part of the budget goes to retirement benefits for former city workers, who are not adding anything at all to the city today, and many of them don't even live in the city anymore.  Have you ever played SimCity and gotten your city into paralyzing debt, where you have no cash to make any improvements? That's where Cincinnati is.  Many other cities, counties, and local governments across America are in this positiion, especially in the Rust Belt.

 

 

Ok, highways are funded from gas tax revenue and other sources. The point is that they have a source of funding.

 

If you consider an annual bailout of the federal highway trust fund to be a good "source of funding", then yes, highways have a "viable business model".

 

If I buy a house I can't afford, will you start paying my half of mortgage for me so I can say I have a "viable business model"? :)

The part of the federal gasoline tax that supports public transportation was enacted after Reagan cut the direct support of local transit companies that had been in place during the 1970s.  Federal support to Queen City Metro, if I remember the figures correctly, dropped by about 50%, to about $8 million. 

 

The portion of the federal gas tax is highly restricted in what it can be used for...according to Queen City Metro, federal money pays for these items:

 

Federal formula funds are used to support preventative maintenance expense, tires, ADA expenses (10% of total allocation).

^Surface Transportation Assistance Act of 1982, IIRC.

Apparently my comments in the Enquirer upset someone enough this morning to call me and go into a profanity-laced tirade with me. Apparently he wasn't interested in a discussion, which is typical of the opposition. A reverse-phone lookup shows this person to be Dan Gruber Jr, 53, of Ridgeview Avenue in Price Hill. Anyone know who he is?

 

This extremist passion is part of the reason why ODOT Director Jerry Wray has asked for two undercover state troopers to be in attendance at tomorrow's TRAC meeting. But I think another part of the reason is he expects the streetcar project to be turned down and that streetcar supporters will be the ones to cause trouble. We won't.

 

Don't ask me how I know about what Wray intends to do. But it seems he is afraid of the people, a majority of whom in Cincinnati support the streetcar. And why is he afraid?

Just recieved this response from Ray DiRossi...

 

"Brandon

 

Thanks for the email and thanks for sharing your thoughts on this issue...

 

I understand many of your arguments and commentary...

 

Its is unfortunate that we find ourselves 62% over extended in our tier I programs, this has caused the TRAC to consider ways - some drastic to get out spending and our commitments in line with shrinking federal revenue and other stagnant revenue streams.

 

As I am sure you know - TRAC recently in the last 2 or so years revised its scoring process for the first time in a long time.  I was not on TRAC when that was undertaken or enacted.  That new scoring process as you correctly pointed out rated the Cincinnati Street car project as #1 project.  In fact of the top 6 or 7 projects - transit or non roadway projects were 5 of the top 6 or maybe 5 of the top 7 project

In our continuing attempts to find a formula that is in the best interest of all types of projects - i am not sure we have that right now... 

 

again - I appreciate your input and thanks for taking the time to write

 

Ray DiRossi"

Apparently my comments in the Enquirer upset someone enough this morning to call me and go into a profanity-laced tirade with me. Apparently he wasn't interested in a discussion, which is typical of the opposition. A reverse-phone lookup shows this person to be Dan Gruber Jr, 53, of Ridgeview Avenue in Price Hill. Anyone know who he is?

 

This extremist passion is part of the reason why ODOT Director Jerry Wray has asked for two undercover state troopers to be in attendance at tomorrow's TRAC meeting. But I think another part of the reason is he expects the streetcar project to be turned down and that streetcar supporters will be the ones to cause trouble. We won't.

 

Don't ask me how I know about what Wray intends to do. But it seems he is afraid of the people, a majority of whom in Cincinnati support the streetcar. And why is he afraid?

 

I'm not surprised.  During the 1st ballot initiative, I had 2 signs out that said "No on 9" (at that time I wasn't for the streetcar but was against stupid ballot initiatives that hinder representative democracy).  I woke up one morning and saw the 2 signs ripped in half, bent, and thrown into some bushes with what appeared to be urine stains all over them.  In its place were multiple "Yes on 9" signs.

 

Sorry you were harassed Ken. Sounds like the guy is a real irrational jerk. 

New article:

 

http://news.cincinnati.com/article/20110410/NEWS0108/104110317

 

Interstates are NOT a 'viable business model' today. The federal highway fund receives money from general taxation because the gas taxes are not enough. The stimulus spending dramatically increased this subsidization of interstates in the last few years. This money could have been spent in many other more produtive transportation projects. We really are moving into a new age where everything, including transportation, will have to work very differently than in the past.

Thanks your posting, Matthew. Welcome to the board!

Ya-  Ray is definitely a no vote on the streetcar-  I had about a 4 email conversation with him and it was very clear that he will not be voting for it.

I have written to the TRAC board twice and never received an email back.

 

Being that I am an Indiana resident though, might have something to do with it. LOL

 

At least they know my tourist dollars would support it. ;-)

Yard signs are stolen and vandalized in every campaign and I don't think the Issue 9 campaign was unusual in that regard.  When my dad ran for school board when I was a kid, signs vanished, we received threatening phone calls, our house was egged, etc. 

So after they take away all the funds, what's the next step?  Continue with hopefully more private funds? Litigation? Scaled down plan to just OTR? Or is it finished?

Get at least some corporate sponsorship of the proposal. It's amazing that this project has made it this far with very little corporate support, especially in a city with as many Fortune 500/1000 companies.

 

Look at it this way: There is broad corporate support for 3CDC. Macy's, Kroger, P&G, and 27 other companies either serve on 3CDC's board, or give commitment. There is broad support for Columbus' Arena District by Nationwide (and almost exclusively Nationwide). And in other cities, corporate help and guidance helped build lightrail and streetcars. Charlotte's LYNX got in board with Duke Energy, Wachovia, Bank of America, Parsons Brickerhoff... and 22 other corporations.

 

When I look through the supporting list for the streetcar, I see no corporate support. I see individual business owners, residents, politicians. That's great, but it doesn't provide major funding support. Please correct me if I omitted any major financial supporters.

So after they take away all the funds, what's the next step?  Continue with hopefully more private funds? Litigation? Scaled down plan to just OTR? Or is it finished?

 

Who is taking away all of the funds? Only the state appropriated federal funds are at risk.

 

And it is not smart to disclose next steps in a publicly accessible site. The only time I will post anything is when it serves the streetcar project.

So after they take away all the funds, what's the next step?  Continue with hopefully more private funds? Litigation? Scaled down plan to just OTR? Or is it finished?

 

Who is taking away all of the funds? Only the state appropriated federal funds are at risk.

 

And it is not smart to disclose next steps in a publicly accessible site. The only time I will post anything is when it serves the streetcar project.

 

Gotcha.  Yes, I was referring to the state appropriated federal funds. 

 

I'm just making sure there are backup plans. 

 

Sherman hit the nail right on the head.  More corporations need to publicly and financially support the project aside from the casino

Get at least some corporate sponsorship of the proposal. It's amazing that this project has made it this far with very little corporate support, especially in a city with as many Fortune 500/1000 companies.

 

Look at it this way: There is broad corporate support for 3CDC. Macy's, Kroger, P&G, and 27 other companies either serve on 3CDC's board, or give commitment. There is broad support for Columbus' Arena District by Nationwide (and almost exclusively Nationwide). And in other cities, corporate help and guidance helped build lightrail and streetcars. Charlotte's LYNX got in board with Duke Energy, Wachovia, Bank of America, Parsons Brickerhoff... and 22 other corporations.

 

When I look through the supporting list for the streetcar, I see no corporate support. I see individual business owners, residents, politicians. That's great, but it doesn't provide major funding support. Please correct me if I omitted any major financial supporters.

 

This.  It boggles my mind as well.  There should be an entire P&G Line from downtown (probably the twins) to the university (or even Ivorydale!!!).

New article:

 

http://news.cincinnati.com/article/20110410/NEWS0108/104110317

 

 

This was on the front page above the fold in The Enquirer today and explains the State's rationale in denying funds in spite of the Streetcar's high ranking by the TRAC board.  Essentially, the article states rank isn't the only criteria for allocating funds.

 

BTW I'm continuing my boycott of cincinnati.com.   

 

  "Interstates are NOT a 'viable business model' today."

 

  Ok, maybe "viable business model" wasn't the best phrase. How about that they have positive cash flow? The point of all of that discussion is that highways have a source of funding. Whether they SHOULD or not is a completely different question. It may not be "fair," but that's the way it is. The highway lobby is just doing what they do naturally - they are going after the money. Bashing highways does not help the cause for rail.

 

 

^  Even positive cash flow doesn't apply to highways.  The cashflow is still negative.  User taxes does not cover expenses in EITHER model.  (gas tax for highways, fare for transit). 

 

 

 

  ^Cash flow doesn't have to come from the users. It can come from any source. If you think that the cash flow SHOULD come from the users, then that's a different discussion altogether.

 

    The cash flow for the stadiums in Cincinnati doesn't all come from the users. In addition to ticket sales, parking revenues, etc., the cash flow comes from the Hamilton County sales tax. Is that "Fair"? There are 80,000 voters in Hamilton County that think it's not fair. But the sales tax got passed, and the stadiums got built. The business plan included the sale of bonds backed by projected sales tax revenue. Commercial banks bought the idea, and floated the bonds to raise the capital.

If you think that the cash flow SHOULD come from the users, then that's a different discussion altogether.

 

Ummmm....but that's the exact argument against trains and other public transportation that highway-lovers use.  They bash any other form of transportation as "losing money" if it has to receive funding from sources other than user fees to keep it afloat.

we are so far off topic now--

 

You had said that highways were a viable business model because they had a specific tax (gas tax) and joked that if streetcars were the same companies should be building them-  I know all about cashflows and i also know that democracy isn't fair to everyone, but it is more fair to a larger portion than any other form of government-  Of course there are 80,000 people who didn't want something.  I don't get that argument with regard to the streetcar--

 

Either way I'm going to get back on topic-

 

How many people have heard back from TRAC members?  Ray seems to be the only person who emails back-  Anyone have conversations?

 

Look at it this way: There is broad corporate support for 3CDC. Macy's, Kroger, P&G, and 27 other companies either serve on 3CDC's board, or give commitment. There is broad support for Columbus' Arena District by Nationwide (and almost exclusively Nationwide). And in other cities, corporate help and guidance helped build lightrail and streetcars. Charlotte's LYNX got in board with Duke Energy, Wachovia, Bank of America, Parsons Brickerhoff... and 22 other corporations.

 

We are very lucky to have Nationwide here in Columbus. I think the difference between the big companies you mention in Cincinnati and Nationwide or BofA is that their products are intangible. Intangible products require a lot of promotion and tie-ins to build the brand, so their budgets for that portion of the marketing mix are much larger. Duke did pledge $6M toward the streetcar.

Wasn't that in return for something? IIRC, the sale of the city's street lights?

It seems like Eighth and State is making the point that highways get the money to be built and (more or less) maintained. People either support that happening, or they don't object to it happening enough to stop it.

 

He's saying rail needs to be in that position, if it is to be built and maintained.

 

This is completely trivial, but that's all I can gather from what he's saying.

 

Trying to figure out where he might be going with that, it seems he might be arguing that rail supporters should be looking for a systematic source of funds, rather than relying on these one-shot grants and whatnot that have brought the streetcar close to fruition. Meaning, an argument about where the energy should be focused of streetcar supporters. Instead of fighting these petty political battles, the energy should be toward convincing whoever needs convincing (e.g. voters/politicians supplying tax revenue, and/or businesses supplying funds and sponsorship) that these projects should be funded.

 

I'm really going out on a limb trying to figure out what he's saying, because the way he's presenting it seems extremely convoluted.

Wasn't that in return for something? IIRC, the sale of the city's street lights?

I'm pretty sure if you buy something, you don't get to decide what the money you paid gets spent on for the guy you paid it to.

 

Obviously Duke is in favor of the Streetcar because it runs on electricity rather than diesel, and therefore they will get to charge for its operation.  I'm pretty sure we all know Towne Properties is in favor of the Streetcar.  They are a big corporation.

You can follow live on twitter with the #TRACstreetcar tag.

 

Not expecting good things though.  Looks like a packed house is up there including the Mayor

I'm at the meeting.  I will post updates here as it appears that the ODOT wi-fi blocks twitter and I don't have a smart phone.

 

Qualls, Quinliven, Tarbell, Mallory here.  No opponents yet.

 

 

 

 

 

And we appreciate you for that!

Numerous dudes with Joe Biden hair have entered

Tom Luken not here

Selvey-Maddox questioning why streetcar is targeted in ODOT budget cut ammendment

Wray says streetcar funding block in ODOT budget "bad legislation"

highway trust fund bankrupt -- ODOT expects no growth in federal funds.  boo-hoo

Lots of double talk from Wray. 

ODOT worried that declining revenues will prohibit them from making federal matches by 2017.  Of course, these are all road projects.

public comments begin now

Luken's next door neighbor just spoke, now his daughter    both repeated his talking points

When they speak are they asking where they are from?

COAST goon spoike,  now Chris Finney

Finney went out of his way to mention that he didn't live in the city

ODOT employees called me this morning to lament extra security at ODOT HQ's entrances for today. All were asked to show their ODOT ID's. What an overreaction to "the people" showing up today....

Mallory, Qualls, Quinliven just spoke, now Christ Hospital rep

question: is this going on in Columbus or Cincinnati (or elsewhere)?