>"Bunch of funny looking YP types with green trolley buttons."

 

Again, I filmed the event and panned through the assembled crowd once or twice.  The photographic record doesn't support this claim, but presenting the COAST groupies with facts doesn't phase them. 

^Also, it's hilarious that he uses "YP" as a pejorative term.  Heaven forbid that the people supporting a project be professionals, let alone young professionals that are interested in their city's future!

True, but calling them "whipper snappers" makes it too obvious that he's out of touch. 

I have a theory and I think it's already been on here.

 

What if the rejection of the state funding actually helps private funding to the project? Maybe these companies that support the streetcar getting built actually sat back thinking it would get built without their contribution after the state initially approved funding?

 

Do you see any new people and/or companies stepping up to help?  P & G? Chiquita? Reds/Castellini?  Obviously not Mike Brown or bengals. 

Let's not give them the satisfaction of talking about them. They want to feel important. Don't oblige them.

oblige whom?

I have a theory and I think it's already been on here.

 

What if the rejection of the state funding actually helps private funding to the project? Maybe these companies that support the streetcar getting built actually sat back thinking it would get built without their contribution after the state initially approved funding?

 

Do you see any new people and/or companies stepping up to help?  P & G? Chiquita? Reds/Castellini?  Obviously not Mike Brown or bengals. 

 

I don't know, but I think it would help the perception of the project a great deal.  If you suddenly had P&G, 5/3, Kroger, etc. publicly stating that this is a good idea, that would sway public opinion.

Naming rights?  Nothing makes a donor or financial backer feel warm & fuzzy like having their name on a major project.

oblige whom?

 

The opposition.

Return your joke detector to the 'on' position, Ken. 

^Not everyone on this forum is an open supporter of the streetcar project, either.

 

@re Jimmy James: That was my big question that I posed earlier: why have no major corporate backers (the ones with the big bucks and are willing to show it) supported the streetcar? 5/3? No. Kroger? No. Macy's? No. They all support Over-the-Rhine; they all fund 3CDC, along with a list of other corporations. My theory is with NBow's: the city never approached corporate sponsorship and donations for the streetcar project at any level, which was a major mistake that they made.

 

Now we are stuck with a streetcar project that only goes from downtown to OTR, which is completely useless (IMO), waning corporate perception and public perception that is still very much skeptical of the project. We sold the deal wrong, and now we need to make up for this by going after the very backers of 3CDC and sell it to them as a tool to leverage additional growth and development in the very neighborhood they have millions of dollars invested in.

Is it inappropriate in this forum to refer to ODOT Director Jerry Wray as a flaming asphalt?

Return your joke detector to the 'on' position, Ken. 

 

Sorry but I can't takes jokes anymore, not in my position. I used to have a helluva sense of humor, but years of working around rail projects (and their opinion-heavy/fact-light opposition) has all but killed my sense of humor. I figured you were confused by my comment, since another post regarding private sector sponsorships squeezed in between mine and the one I was responding to. It really wasn't clear "who" I was referring to.

 

^Not everyone on this forum is an open supporter of the streetcar project, either.

 

 

But you are not a part of the organized opposition, and certainly not among those who come in here to act like a 12-year-old. While many people here on UO support the streetcar, it is not a requirement for posting here. Intellectual, polite and mature disagreements are great. But if you get your debating strategies from Soldier of Fortune magazine, better stick to appearing at survivalist camps rather than at UrbanOhio.

 

If I were Kroger, I would want the streetcar coming through University Plaza, right to the front door of my new store.

Sorry but I can't takes jokes anymore, not in my position. I used to have a helluva sense of humor, but years of working around rail projects (and their opinion-heavy/fact-light opposition) has all but killed my sense of humor. I figured you were confused by my comment, since another post regarding private sector sponsorships squeezed in between mine and the one I was responding to. It really wasn't clear "who" I was referring to.

 

 

Not to get too off-topic, but there's another forum that I go to (also a Simple Machines) that pops up a warning when somebody else's post slides between yours and the one you were responding to. There might be a setting for that in here.

One thing I always found odd was that the project did not get UC on board wholeheartedly (once the uptown connector was made part of it).  Have them chip in $20 million or whatever; they are probably in a better position to do that than most, and may be more inclined than some of the companies in town. 

Now we are stuck with a streetcar project that only goes from downtown to OTR, which is completely useless (IMO)

 

I would find this route extremely useful and would use it everyday.

  If it gets some big time local businesses on board (Graeter's, Skyline, larosas, P&G, Chiquita, Reds, or whomever), it will gain some really good PR.  If it gets some contributions from these kind of companies, COAST will have an uphill battle with their ballot initiative.  The enquirer and 700wlw will start to change tune.

 

We'll see what kind of magic Mallory can work behind the scenes. 

Now we are stuck with a streetcar project that only goes from downtown to OTR, which is completely useless (IMO)

 

I would find this route extremely useful and would use it everyday.

 

I dont live in Cincy, but as a frequent visitor to downtown this route takes me more or less all the places I normally go.

Development in OTR is reaching, if not already past, a reasonable walking distance to the Downtown office core.  If you want to unlock the potential of NW OTR, that's the way to do it. Also it sets you up for extensions into the West End, Uptown, etc. 

^Not everyone on this forum is an open supporter of the streetcar project, either.

 

@re Jimmy James: That was my big question that I posed earlier: why have no major corporate backers (the ones with the big bucks and are willing to show it) supported the streetcar? 5/3? No. Kroger? No. Macy's? No. They all support Over-the-Rhine; they all fund 3CDC, along with a list of other corporations. My theory is with NBow's: the city never approached corporate sponsorship and donations for the streetcar project at any level, which was a major mistake that they made.

 

Now we are stuck with a streetcar project that only goes from downtown to OTR, which is completely useless (IMO), waning corporate perception and public perception that is still very much skeptical of the project. We sold the deal wrong, and now we need to make up for this by going after the very backers of 3CDC and sell it to them as a tool to leverage additional growth and development in the very neighborhood they have millions of dollars invested in.

 

I have to disagree with you on the downtown to OTR loop being "completely useless."  In fact, I think its the most important part of the whole project.  There are countless examples I can think of where having a rail system in place for getting to and from downtown and OTRs major attractions would be hugely beneficial to the city.  Just think how much easier it would be for people to come downtown for a night out, park once, and be able to go to a ball game, dinner afterwards, possibly the casino after that, and maybe even a stop at a bar in OTR after that before finally taking the streetcar back to where you parked at the end of the night?  That's just one of about a million scenarios where I could see the downtown circulator being awesome to have.  I know I would use it alot.  In contrast, I doubt I would have ever used the uptown connector as it was planned.  Why would I ever want to go to uptown only to be dropped off next to Krogers?  For the immediate future I see the uptown connector as unneccessary.  It will be great in the future once uptown starts to grow and improve and the benefits of the downtown loop become more apparent to people.  That's just my opinion, but I'm sure alot of  other OTR residents agree with me that the downtown circulator is incredibly important.

Don't forget that the combined phases 1&2 of the streetcar was to be the longest new-start streetcar project in the U.S. Not only is scaling it back not a bad thing, but it might actually make comparable to its contemporaries in other cities, which have since grown in ridership and service area.

^Not everyone on this forum is an open supporter of the streetcar project, either.

 

@re Jimmy James: That was my big question that I posed earlier: why have no major corporate backers (the ones with the big bucks and are willing to show it) supported the streetcar? 5/3? No. Kroger? No. Macy's? No. They all support Over-the-Rhine; they all fund 3CDC, along with a list of other corporations. My theory is with NBow's: the city never approached corporate sponsorship and donations for the streetcar project at any level, which was a major mistake that they made.

 

Now we are stuck with a streetcar project that only goes from downtown to OTR, which is completely useless (IMO), waning corporate perception and public perception that is still very much skeptical of the project. We sold the deal wrong, and now we need to make up for this by going after the very backers of 3CDC and sell it to them as a tool to leverage additional growth and development in the very neighborhood they have millions of dollars invested in.

 

I have to disagree with you on the downtown to OTR loop being "completely useless."  In fact, I think its the most important part of the whole project.  There are countless examples I can think of where having a rail system in place for getting to and from downtown and OTRs major attractions would be hugely beneficial to the city.  Just think how much easier it would be for people to come downtown for a night out, park once, and be able to go to a ball game, dinner afterwards, possibly the casino after that, and maybe even a stop at a bar in OTR after that before finally taking the streetcar back to where you parked at the end of the night?  That's just one of about a million scenarios where I could see the downtown circulator being awesome to have.  I know I would use it alot.  In contrast, I doubt I would have ever used the uptown connector as it was planned.  Why would I ever want to go to uptown only to be dropped off next to Krogers?  For the immediate future I see the uptown connector as unneccessary.  It will be great in the future once uptown starts to grow and improve and the benefits of the downtown loop become more apparent to people.  That's just my opinion, but I'm sure alot of  other OTR residents agree with me that the downtown circulator is incredibly important.

 

I agree with everything you say here. 

 

But I also agree with Jimmy and Sherman in that without big local companies publicly supporting the project, it is a PR nightmare.  The Enquirer and 700wlw will just keep bashing it unless some of the companies jump on board.  Normally, I wouldn't care about what some of the lies they are putting out, but since there will probably be a ballot initiative in November that would essentially block all rail going into city limits until 2020 under the false pretense of it being "just about the streetcar", its very important

I am not discounting the usefulness of that (in reply to Jacksparrow), but it's full potential cannot be realized without the connection to the second biggest employment area in Cincinnati, and an area that holds a substantial number of younger adults. I think that while the line will ultimately be built in downtown and OTR, without that critical hill connection, you'll see a lower than expected return.

 

I do agree though, that northern OTR, especially north of say, 13th Street, becomes a lengthy walk from anywhere in downtown, especially if you work in a corporate office (e.g. P&G). That's where the real benefit lies for those who live in the immediate area where the streetcar will serve, but there isn't the great amount of population there yet.

I do agree though, that northern OTR, especially north of say, 13th Street, becomes a lengthy walk from anywhere in downtown, especially if you work in a corporate office (e.g. P&G). That's where the real benefit lies for those who live in the immediate area where the streetcar will serve, but there isn't the great amount of population there yet.

 

I work in the Mercantile Building just south of Fountain Square and would only seriously consider buying a place in northern OTR if the streetcar is built.  If it is not built, we'll continue to live in our Central Parkway condo until we outgrow our space (as our family increases in size).  Worst case scenario, we would have to move out of downtown if we cannot find a larger, affordable location within walking/streetcar distance of the Central Business District.

I think Liberty is the max end of the walking zone.  I currently walk from 14th/Vine to 4th and Main every day.  It is about the outer limit for a walk where you begin to think the hassle of driving and parking might be worth it. 

Here is footage from the TRAC vote:

 

 

I have 10 minutes of committee discussion to upload later today.

There was about 12 minutes of committee discussion.  Here are the first seven minutes:

 

Interesting discussions.  I agree that corporate backing would help the entire cause, but I doubt UC would kick in anything at this point since the Uptown line would go up Vine Street.  Plus UC seems in enough financial woes of its own...today it was reported in the paper that after 50+ years they are suing the Bearcat Cafe over use of the Bearcat name alleging that it infringes on their copyright and sales of merchandise, so they are too busy picking on small businesses. 

 

But I digress.  I believe a Riverfront-OTR line would still be useful for people coming to downtown as an entertainment destination and those whom have a walk exceeding 10 or so blocks for work, etc., but without an Uptown connection, I believe it's quite possible that the ultimate fate of the streetcar is exactly the novelty attraction the naysayers characterize it to be.  I still hope it can get built one way or the other, but commitment (to expansion) is what is necessary to make sure it succeeds.

I thought this was the appropriote thread for this...I was trying to think of a project that would attract/retain young people and make Ohio "cool"...

couldnt think of anything....anyone have any ideas (sacasism)

 

Kasich: We have to make Ohio ‘cool’

2:19 pm, Apr 13, 2011 | Written by cweiser  |  104Comments

Gov.  John Kasich says he wants to make Ohio “cool” for young people – like Austin or Raleigh.

 

So? What are your ideas? How do we make Ohio cool?

 

http://cincinnati.com/blogs/politics/2011/04/13/kasich-we-have-to-make-ohio-cool/

 

  On the uselfulness of the OTR loop:

 

  Thinking way back to when I first heard of this streetcar proposal, my first impression was that it would be nearly useless, at least to me. Why? Because if I wanted to travel from the Music Hall area of OTR to downtown, I would probably walk instead of ride the streetcar. I regularly walk that distance.

More committee discussion:

 

Mallory speaks after funds are cut:

 

This video includes the cutaway to Jerry Wray, who was nodding off just before I turned the camera:

 

  On the uselfulness of the OTR loop:

 

  Thinking way back to when I first heard of this streetcar proposal, my first impression was that it would be nearly useless, at least to me. Why? Because if I wanted to travel from the Music Hall area of OTR to downtown, I would probably walk instead of ride the streetcar. I regularly walk that distance.

 

Which probably puts you in the 95th percentile or higher of walkers.

Don't forget the development side of the Streetcar argument. Even with the uptown extension chopped off, you still retain the vast majority of "activated blocks."

 

To my knowledge, this project is more about development than mobility anyhow. My feeling is that Cincinnati has a healthy redevelopment market but too many places to redevelop. Once you get those tracks in the ground, those activated blocks are going to go absolutely apeshit.

 

 

 

"Which probably puts you in the 95th percentile or higher of walkers."

 

Yeah, I know. It drives me crazy when I'm riding in a car and the driver drives round and round in a parking lot trying to find the closest space. 

 

Interesting discussions.  I agree that corporate backing would help the entire cause, but I doubt UC would kick in anything at this point since the Uptown line would go up Vine Street.  Plus UC seems in enough financial woes of its own...today it was reported in the paper that after 50+ years they are suing the Bearcat Cafe over use of the Bearcat name alleging that it infringes on their copyright and sales of merchandise, so they are too busy picking on small businesses. 

 

 

I think UC's "financial woes" may be a misconception.  We're talking a school with a $940 million endowment that is currently in the midst of a $1 billion fundraising campaign--during which they have already raised $750 million.  Obviously there are cuts everywhere for education right now, but UC certainly has the ability to raise funds when it wants to. 

I am sure you're right...it just makes me laugh that they are worried about things like the Bearcat Cafe.

In reply to the discussion about the route above:

Keep in mind that in other cities where streetcar systems were built, the second and third and subsequent phases came quickly and easily once the initial system was complete.  I truly believe this would happen here.  We absolutely must get the downtown loop built immediately for this reason.  I see no problem getting future expansions to Uptown once people see the usefulness of the downtown loop.  And I agree that a connection to Uptown (and hopefully an additional "Uptown Circulator" too) would be hugely beneficial to the overall success of the project.  But, I think a lot of Cincinnatians, even those who live downtown already, have a hard time believing/understanding that a downtown/OTR circulator really could have a huge impact on the city now.  Maybe I'm being overly optimistic here, but I really think it would work well and an uptown connection at a later time would be easy (relatively speaking) to get done.

 

  On the uselfulness of the OTR loop:

 

  Thinking way back to when I first heard of this streetcar proposal, my first impression was that it would be nearly useless, at least to me. Why? Because if I wanted to travel from the Music Hall area of OTR to downtown, I would probably walk instead of ride the streetcar. I regularly walk that distance.

 

 

Perhaps, and I agree that there will be plenty of times where I would rather walk and enjoy the weather or whatever.  But, I also have thought on many occaisions how nice a streetcar would be for this or that.  For example, for getting downtown from my condo in OTR this winter during the cincy beerfest, it was freezing out, really miserable weather for walking.  Obviously we didn't want to drive because a. there'd be nowhere to park and b. I'd get arrested after stumbling out of the convention center.  A streetcar ride would have been a god send.  It could have gotten us down to fountain square quickly and would have cut a large portion of unpleasant walking out of our night.  Afterwards, again, would have been great for getting us home safely and keeping us relatively warm.

There's been many times that we head out to findlay market on our bikes and have to limit what we buy because we know we can only carry so much with our bikes.  The streetcar would help that obviously.  Additionally, going out to a fund raising event for work in the Carew Tower, my wife and I were dressed up in formal clothes, didn't want to walk because she was wearing heels and because it was 10 degrees out.  Streetcar would have been awesome that night too. 

Also, there have been many times where its simply raining, we want to head downtown for dinner or a show at the CAC and guess what, the streetcar would have helped immensely.  The point being that streetcars compliment the whole pedestrian experience.  If its more convienent to walk, we'll walk, but if its not convienent to walk, we can still walk to the streetcar stop and take it where we need to go.

I think it would be a lot more useful than most of us realize.  I would have never understood any of this had I not been living in OTR for the past 3.5 years.  In fact, I'd probably think it was a waste too.

The environmental review presentations are this week.  If you are reading this, you missed the wednesday night presentation but can still attend tomorrow night. 

 

Fred Craig, Michael Moore, and others who have worked on the technical aspects of the project were there and answered these questions that I had:

 

-alignment has been altered downtown to minimize jogging from lane to lane.  Only a handful of lane changes now. 

-two-way streetcar traffic can't happen on Findlay St. between Race and Vine because the street was deemed to narrow

-streetcars will use dynamic braking in the Vine St. hill but the option to regenerate (send electricity back into the grid) will not be used because it's expected that only one streetcar will operate in that electrical block at any given time.  So the excess energy is simply dissipated as heat.

-stops can be added on the Vine St. hill in the future

-Corry St. terminus will be adjacent to current Kroger's, opposite old Perkin's Restaurant lot.  Will take the form of a single-track stub similar to the termini on Seattle's South Lake Union Streetcar.

-additional streetcars will be put in service during large events (5 of 7 will run in ordinary operation) and staged on The Banks at the end of Reds games and other big events. 

-utility work can begin by late May, first track construction and work on car barn will begin in fall 2011 for a 2013 opening.

 

 

Another ridiculous clip from the TRAC meeting:

 

Is anyone here close enough to the design team to know this:  how is prioritization being approached?  It's my understanding that maybe except for the short stretch on Central Parkway, the streetcar will always be in mixed traffic with cars.  I also remember reading that there will be signal prioritization as well.  Will there be a mechanism (as we have in Munich) where the streetcar will be able to get through an intersection before cars traveling in the same direction?  It would be difficult (ok, impossible) if there are autos blocking the streetcar's path.  Attached to this post are photos of a "normal" traffic light and one that's a little more...involved.  The white symbols are for the tram and are meant to be ignored by cars (except maybe taxis). 

 

Doesn't tram sound better than streetcar BTW?  ;) 

 

Article in today's CityBeat about the NAACP/COAST marriage, and the defeat of the streetcar with TRAC.  Some interesting reading.

 

http://www.citybeat.com/cincinnati/article-23088-naacp_coast-marriage-getting-tested.html

 

Not sure where Osborne got his quotes, since he wasn't at the TRAC meeting. 

Listen GoCincyCOAST, and listen very well.  If you want to continue on this forum, you WILL:

 

A). Start acting like an adult with some sense.

B). Express your or COAST's opinions as constructive criticism and less hostile.

C). NOT EVEN bring ultimatums to this forum.

D). NOT insult other forumers.

 

I'm a nice person.  I like to see differing opinions but if I see ANY of A-D, then:

 

E). You will be banned permanantly, without question, without hesitation.

>See, this is what common sense looks like!

 

No, this is what corruption looks like.

 

 

>YOU DON'T HAVE THE MONEY!!! 

 

Actually Jason Gloyd has his home foreclosed and Mark Miller was sued by St. X high school for not paying tuition.  And his house is in the worst condition of any in Hyde Park. 

 

I'm just glad any election will only be in the city, and not take in places like wherever it is the COAST folks live. 

There won't be an anti-streetcar issue on the ballot this year.

There won't be an anti-streetcar issue on the ballot this year.

 

? Why not?

 

Edit: Not that I'm complaining!

  :wink: