I have to wonder, since the utilities lines Duke is saying will cost so much to move run through public right of way, can the city just tell them they have to move them? The space in which the lines run is owned by the city.

 

I follow the news on new-start rail across the country pretty much every day, and I've never known of an instance when a city has paid to move investor-owned utility facilities. Sometimes it goes to court. The cities always win.

So, basically, Duke is BSing everyone because the city will not have to pay them at all?

Mark Miller or some COAST member going as "MiddleClassGuy" is all over this last article saying the ballot initiative is all about the streetcar and only the streetcar.  Someone provided this response to him

 

"Ah yes...Thank you for proving my point COAST member that this will ban all rail. This is too easy:

 

"For purposes of this Amendment, (i) the term “Streetcar System” means a system of passenger vehicles OPERATED ON RAILS CONSTRUCTED PRIMARILY IN EXISTING PUBLIC RIGHTS OF WAY, (ii) the term “City” includes without limitation the City, the Manager, the Mayor, the Council, and the City’s various boards, commissions, agencies and departments and (iii) the term “money” means any money from any source whatsoever."

 

Thank you for proving my point COAST"

Everyone keeps talking about Duke--

 

What about MSD??? There are still hundreds of MSD manholes that need to moved. I counted about 20 MSD manholes along 12th street. I could not find a line item in the budget for moving Sewer and water lines. 

 

Is there one?  Is this paid for by MSD or the city?

^ Good thing municipal utilities came along before car culture. If putting all that stuff under our Sacred Travel Lanes today were a novel idea, it would be laughed out of town.

Around 1941 the idea of putting parking under the downtown streets was floating around.

^Yeah, there was a proposal to build underground garages beneath Fourth and Sixth streets between Plum and Broadway.  But it was far less expensive to tear down buildings and build above-ground garages, since garages directly beneath the streets themselves was akin to subway construction. 

Everyone keeps talking about Duke--

 

What about MSD??? There are still hundreds of MSD manholes that need to moved. I counted about 20 MSD manholes along 12th street. I could not find a line item in the budget for moving Sewer and water lines. 

 

Is there one?  Is this paid for by MSD or the city?

 

The reason I asked about Duke is because they are the ones who came back to the city and said it would cost $20 mil or whatever for utility relocations. I would have to say that since the MSD actually has a surplus of funds, and they are owned by the city, they can also be compelled to comply.

Everyone keeps talking about Duke--

 

What about MSD??? There are still hundreds of MSD manholes that need to moved. I counted about 20 MSD manholes along 12th street. I could not find a line item in the budget for moving Sewer and water lines. 

 

Is there one?  Is this paid for by MSD or the city?

 

Are you positive they are MSD manholes? Like I stated before, there are water main valve manholes, telephone manholes, and sewer manholes. There are also smaller valve boxes for water and gas. I have installed underground utilities, water mains, and sewers for a decade and can give you some insight. MSD manholes will either have the MSD marking on it, have SEWER written across it, and they will always have holes in them. Water main valves look very similar to the sewer manholes only the will not have holes in them and will not have anything written on them. Telephone manholes have a picture of a bell on them.

 

I simply can't see MSD moving an entire sewer main to lay tracks in the street. If one manhole is in the way, then several will be in the way because sewers will run run in a pretty straight line down the middle of the street. If a sewer is in the way, the will figure out some way to negotiate the tracks so that the manholes are not directly in the way of the tracks. Also, MSD may be able to offset the manhole slightly to get it out of the way of the tracks. An entire sewer main will not be moved, it would be very costly. This would require closing entire streets and possibly the reinstalling several utilities depending on the sewer size and sewer depth. This would also push back the opening of a streetcar line by at least a year. If a sewer main is in the way they will figure something out.

 

Water main valve manholes and telephone manholes can be moved much easier than sewers. Water and gas valve boxes can be moved fairly easily.

The older water manholes do look a lot like the older sewer ones, but many of them do say "CWW VALVE" on them too, it's just hard to notice.  More recently they've been replacing them with an array of three smaller valve covers spaced a few feet apart in a triangle.  I just wish they'd stop using the ones with the raised covers.  They mess up the paving since the steamroller bounces over them, and they're a hazard to bicycles. 

 

 

I don't know that moving water lines or valves is going to be that much easier than messing with sewers, considering how much work it took to replace them along Madison Road last year and with the continued problems in Oakley.  Water lines certainly aren't as big as sewers (usually), but they're difficult to work with either way. 

 

I still stand by my assertion that the utilities are being whiny bitches for complaining about the streetcar, since they had to coexist with tracks on pretty much the entire route in the past, save for Race Street.  I don't doubt that Parsons Brinckerhoff has been trying to avoid the underground utilities all along, but even so, if the utilities and streetcar tracks could work together 100 years ago, they should be able to make it work today. 

The older water manholes do look a lot like the older sewer ones, but many of them do say "CWW VALVE" on them too, it's just hard to notice.  More recently they've been replacing them with an array of three smaller valve covers spaced a few feet apart in a triangle.  I just wish they'd stop using the ones with the raised covers.  They mess up the paving since the steamroller bounces over them, and they're a hazard to bicycles. 

 

 

I don't know that moving water lines or valves is going to be that much easier than messing with sewers, considering how much work it took to replace them along Madison Road last year and with the continued problems in Oakley.  Water lines certainly aren't as big as sewers (usually), but they're difficult to work with either way. 

 

I still stand by my assertion that the utilities are being whiny bitches for complaining about the streetcar, since they had to coexist with tracks on pretty much the entire route in the past, save for Race Street.  I don't doubt that Parsons Brinckerhoff has been trying to avoid the underground utilities all along, but even so, if the utilities and streetcar tracks could work together 100 years ago, they should be able to make it work today. 

 

When is the last time you ever heard of utililies complaining about having to move their facilities for a road project?

 

Bueller? Anyone? Anyone?

 

 

The older water manholes do look a lot like the older sewer ones, but many of them do say "CWW VALVE" on them too, it's just hard to notice.  More recently they've been replacing them with an array of three smaller valve covers spaced a few feet apart in a triangle.  I just wish they'd stop using the ones with the raised covers.  They mess up the paving since the steamroller bounces over them, and they're a hazard to bicycles. 

 

 

I don't know that moving water lines or valves is going to be that much easier than messing with sewers, considering how much work it took to replace them along Madison Road last year and with the continued problems in Oakley.  Water lines certainly aren't as big as sewers (usually), but they're difficult to work with either way. 

 

I still stand by my assertion that the utilities are being whiny bitches for complaining about the streetcar, since they had to coexist with tracks on pretty much the entire route in the past, save for Race Street.  I don't doubt that Parsons Brinckerhoff has been trying to avoid the underground utilities all along, but even so, if the utilities and streetcar tracks could work together 100 years ago, they should be able to make it work today. 

 

Yeah the valve boxes in your picture are used for solely for keys. The top of the valve is a square that a key slides down and fits on instead of using a wheel and stem valve. This picture shows where a "T" is placed with valves at each end so that each leg can be shut down independently. The water main valves in manholes can be worked on and replaced easily unlike the types of valves you have in the picture. And you are correct that some of the manholes do have CWW on them.

 

Water mains are much easier to move out of the way than sewers due to a shallower depth, usually smaller size, and the fact that it does not need gravity to work. Water operations require less shoring and trench boxes, less aggregate, less equipment, less man hours, less street reconstruction, fewer utility interference, and far fewer complications. Sewer replacement is a major operation and would make the Oakley operation look minuscule. Many more factors. I can possibly see a few valves that could need to be moved slightly because of the tracks, but there is no way I can see a sewer main being moved in downtown. No way.

 

I'm also sure this has been evaluated by Parsons Brinkerhoff.

 

The safety concerns with Duke will eventually go away. They will probably add some safety practices when working around the streetcar line, and will continue to insulate lines they are working around.

 

When is the last time you ever heard of utililies complaining about having to move their facilities for a road project?

 

Bueller? Anyone? Anyone?

 

 

So true. They are usually asked to expand their infrastructure.

There were around 20 that said had the Cincinnati Water Works or MSD logos on them.

MSD would not want their sewer lines running longitudinally under the streetcar tracks. Its for their benefit and the benefit of the proposed infrastructure, if there is an issue with the sewer line, then the street car track and slab would have to be replaced. Same with CWW. If the MH's are in the way, then the actual line is in the way. They most likely do not want the added cost of replacing the streetcar track and slab in the future if the line needs to be replaced/repaired.

 

Comparing the coexistence of utilities and streetcars 100 years ago has no merit for today, there is so much more underground infrastructure  now. When the streetcar lines were laid way back when, there was water and sanitary sewer lines only. Now we have Gas, more water, copper and fiber optic telephone , chilled water, primary and secondary electric.

 

The utilities do moan when they have to relocate for road projects. Sometimes the cost is borne by the utility, sometimes its a project cost. It all depends on the agreement or legislation in place (for example, road projects in unincorporated Hamilton County  have to pay for CWW waterline relocation, but not line upgrading). Utilities do take the advantage of road improvement projects as a good time to upgrade.

There most certainly were gas lines as well during the streetcar days.  Gas service predated electricity after all.  The remaining communications and electric utilities are easy ones to move or navigate around.  The sewers, water, gas, telephone, and some electric was already underground when the original streetcar system was there too.  I'm not aware of any chilled water or district steam lines in downtown or OTR. 

 

I'd imagine any utility company would moan about having to do anything besides sitting back and watching the money roll in.  We only hear about the complaints because this is a rail project, which is somehow an extravagance that must be scrutinized for every penny, while the exorbitant cost of highways is "just what it takes to do business."  It's another example of the double standard rail projects have to endure compared to roads. 

Looks like the NC Senate is trying to take a page out of Ohio's playbook.... also GOP driven. Imagine that.,

 

http://www.charlotteobserver.com/2011/05/25/2323509/senate-targets-new-light-rail.html

There most certainly were gas lines as well during the streetcar days.  Gas service predated electricity after all.  The remaining communications and electric utilities are easy ones to move or navigate around.  The sewers, water, gas, telephone, and some electric was already underground when the original streetcar system was there too.  I'm not aware of any chilled water or district steam lines in downtown or OTR. 

 

I'd imagine any utility company would moan about having to do anything besides sitting back and watching the money roll in.  We only hear about the complaints because this is a rail project, which is somehow an extravagance that must be scrutinized for every penny, while the exorbitant cost of highways is "just what it takes to do business."  It's another example of the double standard rail projects have to endure compared to roads. 

 

It is not 'easy' to move electric and phone lines. Some of the vaults that serve many lines are the size of small living rooms. Fiber optic is a pain to splice, it can be done at great expense.

 

Duke has a chilled water district in Downtown, not sure which streets.

 

OK, so gas was extant back then, some phone, etc. Nothing to the extant and density of what is underground today. Plus there are a ton more reg's today as far as the placement, clearance and safety

^ I'm not entirely sure what any of this information has to do with the feasibility of construction? We build things and break them down and rebuild them. Things get moved around. Things cost money. It's all part of life. Am I missing something?

^Yes, this is a rail project, so it receives 100X as much scrutiny as a highway project.

 

I would have to say that since the MSD actually has a surplus of funds, and they are owned by the city, they can also be compelled to comply.

 

Here is the annual financial report from MSD.

http://www.msdgc.org/downloads/financial_statements/msd_financial_statements_2009_2008.pdf

 

MSD is not owned by the City of Cincinnati. MSD is owned by Hamilton County. The City of Cincinnati operates the sewer system as a contractor for Hamilton County. All capital improvement funding must be approved by the Hamilton County Commissioners.

 

Rights and obligations of utilities are stated in the Ohio Revised Code. Sometimes utilities have to pay for relocation, and sometimes not, depending on the situation, whether the street is located in a municipality, and other factors.

 

Even if the City of Cincinnati does not have to pay to relocate utilities, someone has to pay. Suppose that it costs $100 million to build the tracks, purchase property, build maintenance facilities, and purchase vehicles, and suppose it costs an addition $25 million to relocate utilities. (I made up these numbers.) Then, the total project cost is $125 million. If you claim that the project cost is only $100 million because the other costs are being paid by someone else, then you are asking for trouble when those other parties do not willingly volunteer to pony up their own money to help you build your project, even if those other parties are obligated by law to do the work themselves.

 

 

 

 

^ I'm not entirely sure what any of this information has to do with the feasibility of construction? We build things and break them down and rebuild them. Things get moved around. Things cost money. It's all part of life. Am I missing something?

 

Basicly, the streetcar proponents have not allowed enough money for relocation of utilities. As I understand it, the feasibility study called for some $15 million to relocate all utilities, and Duke is claiming that it will cost more than that just for the Duke utilities alone. If the streetcar proponents had allowed $100 million for relocation of utilities, it wouldn't be an issue.

^This sounds like a bunch of hand-wringing. I've worked with Parsons Brinkerhoff on projects and I can't believe that between them and the city's leadership someone simply forgot to calculate a reasonable cost of utility relocation.

 

As has been mentioned, step back from your collective noodling and think about the myriad road projects occurring right this minute around town. The Beechmont-Five Mile intersection reconstruction? The Ohio 28 widening?

 

Can anyone tell me anything about their budgets? Where are those forum threads?

 

Is a Beechmont Avenue dollar not the same value as a Streetcar dollar?

^This sounds like a bunch of hand-wringing. I've worked with Parsons Brinkerhoff on projects and I can't believe that between them and the city's leadership someone simply forgot to calculate a reasonable cost of utility relocation.

 

As has been mentioned, step back from your collective noodling and think about the myriad road projects occurring right this minute around town. The Beechmont-Five Mile intersection reconstruction? The Ohio 28 widening?

 

Can anyone tell me anything about their budgets? Where are those forum threads?

 

Is a Beechmont Avenue dollar not the same value as a Streetcar dollar?

The Beechmont/5 Mile intersection is on indefinite hold due to property access issues

As has been mentioned, step back from your collective noodling and think about the myriad road projects occurring right this minute around town. The Beechmont-Five Mile intersection reconstruction? The Ohio 28 widening?

 

Can anyone tell me anything about their budgets? Where are those forum threads?

 

Is a Beechmont Avenue dollar not the same value as a Streetcar dollar?

 

AMEN!!!!

Moderator Note

 

Since the Eric Deters discussion was going far beyond the realm of the streetcar, I've moved it to The Official 700 WLW Sucks Thread.

^This sounds like a bunch of hand-wringing. I've worked with Parsons Brinkerhoff on projects and I can't believe that between them and the city's leadership someone simply forgot to calculate a reasonable cost of utility relocation.

 

Although Parsons Brinkerhoff was on the project team, the feasibility study was produced by HDR.

 

The project cost, as listed in that study in 2007, is as follows:

 

"Capital Cost Estimate

Baseline estimate totals $88 million in $2007.

3.9 miles of track

18 stops

6 modern streetcars

maintenance facility

15% to 25% contingency

Escalated to year 2010 totals $102 million '

 

http://www.cincinnati-oh.gov/city/downloads/city_pdf16341.pdf

 

The feasibility study does not give any further detail. But what the feasibility study did was establish the $102 million dollar number in people's minds. Beyond that, my guess is that there is political pressure for any cost estimate not to exceed $102 million significantly.

 

Of course, we know now that the primary politician promoting the stadium project got booted out of office in the next election, due to the final stadium cost being more than double the original published estimate. Cincinnati still suffers from stadium syndrome. 

 

 

As has been mentioned, step back from your collective noodling and think about the myriad road projects occurring right this minute around town. The Beechmont-Five Mile intersection reconstruction? The Ohio 28 widening?

 

Can anyone tell me anything about their budgets? Where are those forum threads?

 

Is a Beechmont Avenue dollar not the same value as a Streetcar dollar?

 

Quite simply, the streetcar has more pages of forum threads because it also has more mainstream media attention.

 

There are no threads about those projects because ODOT does not publicize those projects the same way that the streetcar project has been publicized. We DO have Brent Spence threads and I-75 widening threads because there are also feasibility studies about those projects and lots of mainstream media coverage.

 

For all of the criticism of the Enquirer, when the Enquirer publishes a story about the streetcar, it usually results in a few pages of forum posts. I guess UO forumers really DO read the Enquirer.

 

^ I'm not entirely sure what any of this information has to do with the feasibility of construction? We build things and break them down and rebuild them. Things get moved around. Things cost money. It's all part of life. Am I missing something?

 

The discussion came about because no one could provide a line item from the budget for moving sewer or water- is that paid for by this project orMSD and CWW

 

  I don't work for Parson's Brinkerhoff, so I don't know the answer for sure, but I suspect that it was assumed that moving the CWW water mains and MSD sewers was NOT included in the streetcar budget.

This week's Cincinnati Enquirer anti-Streetcar story comes hidden in the article on Tim Mara:

 

Mara built career taking on big boys

 

Barry "Speedy" Hortsman writes:

 

Over the past year, Mara has assumed higher visibility on perhaps the most volatile issue in local politics - the $95 million-plus Cincinnati streetcar plan.

 

He started by questioning the propriety of City Councilman Chris Bortz's participation in streetcar decisions given his family's property holdings along and near the proposed route. "Initially, I didn't have a strong opinion one way or another on the streetcar," Mara said. "I was more concerned about the integrity of the process than the outcome."

 

cont (last few paragraphs)

From what I've heard Tim Mara kept a low profile in the years following the stadium vote because of personal allegations made during that campaign.  If he were to get involved in another high-profile issue, I would expect that those allegations would resurface. 

Chris Smitherman on Bill Cunningham yet again today to talk about how the city is bankrupt.

 

Why do they give this clown so much airtime

Saw someone wearing a Chris Smitherman for Council tshirt yesterday in Kroger.  I believe that under election rules at some point he won't be able to appear on the radio.  I am worried that with Deters now out, after not being elected Smitherman might get a radio slot on 700. 

 

What's so silly about the "bankrupt" line is that the government *can't* go bankrupt.  If you lose your job, unless you qualify for unemployment, you no longer have any income.  A business can similarly cease to collect any revenue whatsoever.  But a village, city, county, township, or state will never suddenly go from receiving, say, $100 million annually to $0.  In the case of rust belt cities like Youngstown, the drop-off in tax revenue can certainly be quite precipitous, but it never completely stops.  This is why states, counties, and municipalities can sell bonds, and the advantage of bonds is a lower interest rate compared to mortgages.  Ironically, many of the tea party types actually own government bonds as part of their investment portfolios. 

 

 

 

 

^ I saw a Smitherman yard sign in Evanston the other day.

Ha, there is a Ford truck ad at the bottom of this page.

[shameless plug]

Another day, another new business having their grand opening along the streetcar route.

[/shameless plug]

 

What's so silly about the "bankrupt" line is that the government *can't* go bankrupt.  If you lose your job, unless you qualify for unemployment, you no longer have any income.  A business can similarly cease to collect any revenue whatsoever.  But a village, city, county, township, or state will never suddenly go from receiving, say, $100 million annually to $0.  In the case of rust belt cities like Youngstown, the drop-off in tax revenue can certainly be quite precipitous, but it never completely stops.  This is why states, counties, and municipalities can sell bonds, and the advantage of bonds is a lower interest rate compared to mortgages.  Ironically, many of the tea party types actually own government bonds as part of their investment portfolios. 

 

 

Problem is, nobody calls them out publicly on this. Personal finance has little to do with government finance, yet these clowns try to make everybody stupid so they can't understand how the government works. People are much more likely to distrust things they don't know anything about.

Wendell Young wants the inclines to return.  My prediction for tomorrow will be about 5 LTE, an opinionati piece against rail, a Horstman article, and an all day 700wlw bashing

 

http://cincinnati.com/blogs/politics/2011/06/01/young-bring-back-the-incline/

>People are much more likely to distrust things they don't know anything about.

 

The big money guys know the people will never start showing up to meetings, never go to look at things for themselves and if they do don't trust their own observations, and are too lazy to even look things up on the internet. 

Wendell Young wants the inclines to return.  My prediction for tomorrow will be about 5 LTE, an opinionati piece against rail, a Horstman article, and an all day 700wlw bashing

 

http://cincinnati.com/blogs/politics/2011/06/01/young-bring-back-the-incline/

 

1 down, 3 to go.  Ghiz on Doc Thompson coming up.  All we need are some LTE articles, a Horstman article, and an opinionati piece.  The media is so predictable in this town.  Boggles my mind how anyone can think they are unbiased

What's so silly about the "bankrupt" line is that the government *can't* go bankrupt.  If you lose your job, unless you qualify for unemployment, you no longer have any income.  A business can similarly cease to collect any revenue whatsoever.  But a village, city, county, township, or state will never suddenly go from receiving, say, $100 million annually to $0.  In the case of rust belt cities like Youngstown, the drop-off in tax revenue can certainly be quite precipitous, but it never completely stops.  This is why states, counties, and municipalities can sell bonds, and the advantage of bonds is a lower interest rate compared to mortgages.  Ironically, many of the tea party types actually own government bonds as part of their investment portfolios. 

 

without getting too far off topic, I'm not sure I understand this.  Bankrupt isn't about not being able to generate revenue, it's about not being able to pay back loans.  Companies that go bankrupt don't have zero revenue but their revenue isn't sufficient to service the loans.

A technical definition of "bankruptcy" isn't being used by Chris Smitherman or the talk radio guys.  Their audiences don't care about accurate definitions, and if you were to recite an accurate definition, Tom Luken would say "I've heard no such thing!".  And the people would believe him instead of you. 

Ha.  That I agree with.

I don't have a copy of Grapes of Wrath handy, but there was a great passage in there about how illiterate farmers feared the written word because every time writing was forced into their lives it was of the legal nature and each time papers had to be signed, something bad happened.  Actors like Chris Smitherman and Luken position themselves as defenders of helpless people against the written word and fabricate false enemies when they themselves are the ones screwing the people over. 

 

So if people are mostly literate now, why don't they pick up on this stuff?  Well, when they do study literature, it's typically in the classroom of a teacher who himself doesn't get it.  Look no further than Jason Haap. 

Say, whatever happened to Jason Haap?

I don't have a copy of Grapes of Wrath handy, but there was a great passage in there about how illiterate farmers feared the written word because every time writing was forced into their lives it was of the legal nature and each time papers had to be signed, something bad happened.  Actors like Chris Smitherman and Luken position themselves as defenders of helpless people against the written word and fabricate false enemies when they themselves are the ones screwing the people over. 

 

So if people are mostly literate now, why don't they pick up on this stuff?  Well, when they do study literature, it's typically in the classroom of a teacher who himself doesn't get it.  Look no further than Jason Haap. 

 

It's because people from that generation were taught to read using "Fun With Dick and Jane", which actually made people dislike reading and forced their minds to create an image for each noun and verb. Putting an image with each word (such as a wino passed out on a streetcar)  is fine when you are teaching an imagery-based alphabet such as Chinese, but it's a horrible way to teach English. That's why that generation overwhelmingly prefers to receive news through television and talk radio and merely re-barks some robotic two-to-four word statement such as “We're broke.” or “It costs too much.” that they heard some radio god say when talking about the streetcar. The U.S. educational system stopped using "Dick and Jane" in the '70s/early '80s when they figured out that it was sabotaging interest in reading.

 

Now this is obviously in the aggregate so there are lots of exceptions, including probably all of the posters here and many other public transit advocates that have been able to see though anti-rail B.S. over the years. Nonetheless, complex ideas such as how government finance works or the economic development potential of streetcars are best explained in writing. If someone thinks reading sucks and is boring, they're not going to take the effort to read more about something that they oppose.

 

Here's a link that explains the “Dick and Jane” phenomenon in a humorous manner with links to more serious studies:

http://www.cracked.com/article_19135_6-hugely-popular-books-that-accidentally-screwed-world_p2.html

The WWII generation doesn't understand inflation.  They all think their little 1950s ranch homes accrued $100,000+ in value when most of that was simply inflation.  Point it out to them and they get upset.  But they vote in every damn election. 

 

 

Thanks to Dmerkowitz for this link, I think it brings together a lot of what we're talking about:

http://blogs.the-american-interest.com/wrm/2011/06/02/the-death-of-the-american-dream-i/?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed:%20WalterRussellMead%20(Walter%20Russell%20Mead's%20Blog)

The WWII generation doesn't understand inflation.  They all think their little 1950s ranch homes accrued $100,000+ in value when most of that was simply inflation.  Point it out to them and they get upset.  But they vote in every damn election. 

 

I'll tweak that a bit especially Gen X, Y and later have never experienced the kind of inflation that existed between 1965 and 1984 and the older generations did, but it is that felt of experience of very high levels of inflation during that era means that small but over time significant inflation of the last 30 years didn't feel like 'inflation'. I'd argue it was the feeling of going from living in an inflationary environment to a very low inflationary environment that conditioned the lack of insight into changing prices of certain goods (homes, college, medicine).

Has anybody noticed this thread is veering way off course?

No.  The rhetoric being used to attack the project and the particular cultural ideas which that rhetoric is exploiting certainly should be part of the conversation. 

 

And this morning I overhead people randomly bring up and start bashing the streetcar, none of whom live in the City of Cincinnati.