He compares the streetcar to a GTO saying that older generations won't get it but it's the sleek, cool new thing for the next generation.

 

Thanks :mrgreen:

Apparently this self-proclaimed "car guy" runs this...spa:

 

http://www.lapetitesalonandspa.com/

 

He didn't write the guest piece, plain and simple.  The Enquirer "your voices" have been hijacked for some time now. 

That was a smart piece. Basically, the same arguments were made against the Pontiac GTO within GM as are made against the streetcar. In the '60s there was already a popular grassroots movement of kids taking the high-horsepower engines out of the company's "big cars" (such as the Impala) and putting 'em in their smaller and lighter "intermediate cars" such as the Chevelle. John DeLorean at Pontiac wanted to give people that option right from the factory in order to keep from losing sales to used cars or a competitor that offered the option first. But, he had to sneak around within Pontiac to actually get the car on the market because the clueless management at Pontiac didn't want to listen to what the youth market was demanding. Young people were salivating at the possibility of purchasing this automobile, but it was still kind of a secret option since Pontiac was sure it was going to fail. The author's brother tried to purchase one from his local Pontiac dealer in Covedale but the salesman would not sell it to him because he thought the GTO was pointless.

 

Jake Sweeney across town had a GTO and didn't refuse to sell him a product that he desired, so Jake Sweeney got his money. GTOs were on the sales floors a mere fortnight before Pontiac figured out that the GTO was actually becoming a huge sales success and would eventually change the image of the entire company for the next forty years. All those closed-minded curmudgeons had to eat bags of crow as they put their best marketing and advertising people (including Jim Wangers, whose book, "Glory Days" I have read) on the project. Not only that, the GTO would create a youth culture obsessed with howling V-8s, huge burnouts, aftermarket performance parts and later, restoration -- all made in America. Even the hippies loved it.

 

What makes the piece important is that it explains the demand for the streetcar in a manner that the demographic that is most vehemently against the streetcar (45-70 year old conservative suburbanites/exurbanites) can understand. The article is about a time frame that makes them climax, the non-hippie side of the '60s. But here's the rub: The author and most of his family, including his son who moved to Chicago for better transit, are "car guys". That means that they actually know how cars work and care about them. So while transit-haters drive cars yet know nothing about them, they are the ones fighting the hardest against anything that doesn't involve tires. Which takes us to the bigger picture...

 

A lot of these clueless anti-transit right wingers think they know a lot about cars simply because they are Republicans... as if joining a certain political party can teach you the complex relationships of a car's various systems. I'm sure they've changed a tire or jumped a battery before, but most of them have spent their lives driving bland minivans, SUVs and sedans -- trading them in after they got four years old and started needing maintenance that they didn't know how to perform. And if you "know about cars" simply by being on the side that isn't going to "take them away", then by proxy you must know about transportation. And to them, the streetcar is merely a transportation project rather than an economic development one. And even if they do recognize that it is an economic development project they don't think it will work because they themselves don't want to live in that part of town. On the other hand, the most sinister ones know that it will work and are trying to kill it for reasons previously discussed in this thread.

 

Business doesn't have the luxury that politics does regarding giving people what they want until it's too late.

Apparently this self-proclaimed "car guy" runs this...spa:

 

http://www.lapetitesalonandspa.com/

 

He didn't write the guest piece, plain and simple.  The Enquirer "your voices" have been hijacked for some time now. 

 

I'm not an expert on spas, but if it's associated with AVEDA, it may be a franchise. Franchisees often aren't hands-on experts in the franchises they own, or it could be someone in his family's thing. I can't really speculate. But a pro-streetcar guest editorial that was fake would be outside of the Enquirer's, stance on the issue. Unless they are throwing a few bones here and there in order to appear balanced.

GCrites80s, that was one of the best-written analyses I've seen on this forum. Thank you.

Apparently this self-proclaimed "car guy" runs this...spa:

 

http://www.lapetitesalonandspa.com/

 

He didn't write the guest piece, plain and simple.  The Enquirer "your voices" have been hijacked for some time now. 

 

Wait-- Are you saying someone who likes cars can't own a spa franchise???

There's another comparison that we can get out of the GTO example. The GTO is an impractical automobile. It's got an oversize engine, and it squeals tires a lot. Any sensible person would never buy one - in fact, the GTO should be banned from the street for excessive noise and air pollution.

 

Yet - the GTO is very popular.

 

This is partly why rational arguments about the streetcar involving facts don't always work. One cannot assume that people are rational.

Enquirer finally starts to report what's actually in the wording of the amendment

 

http://news.cincinnati.com/article/20110917/NEWS0108/109180336/How-far-does-streetcar-ballot-issue-really-go-?odyssey=tab|topnews|text|FRONTPAGE

 

 

Its hard to believe that the Enquirer actually attempted to do a little bit of research and finally print something on this subject that might pass as real journalism!

There's another comparison that we can get out of the GTO example. The GTO is an impractical automobile. It's got an oversize engine, and it squeals tires a lot. Any sensible person would never buy one - in fact, the GTO should be banned from the street for excessive noise and air pollution.

 

Yet - the GTO is very popular.

 

This is partly why rational arguments about the streetcar involving facts don't always work. One cannot assume that people are rational.

 

What the...I don't even...

 

 

Apparently this self-proclaimed "car guy" runs this...spa:

 

http://www.lapetitesalonandspa.com/

 

He didn't write the guest piece, plain and simple.  The Enquirer "your voices" have been hijacked for some time now. 

 

Someone can't own a spa and be interested in old cars?

 

The most knowledgeable car buff I know is a 400 pound gay man.

GCrites80s, that was one of the best-written analyses I've seen on this forum. Thank you.

 

Thanks, I try my worst.  :laugh:

There's another comparison that we can get out of the GTO example. The GTO is an impractical automobile. It's got an oversize engine, and it squeals tires a lot. Any sensible person would never buy one - in fact, the GTO should be banned from the street for excessive noise and air pollution.

 

Yet - the GTO is very popular.

 

This is partly why rational arguments about the streetcar involving facts don't always work. One cannot assume that people are rational.

 

So what you're saying is: we should get a GTO and put it on rails and hook up a diesel generator onto it, place it on the oasis line and run it to Bengals games as a publicity stunt?

Enquirer finally starts to report what's actually in the wording of the amendment

 

http://news.cincinnati.com/article/20110917/NEWS0108/109180336/How-far-does-streetcar-ballot-issue-really-go-?odyssey=tab|topnews|text|FRONTPAGE

 

 

 

Read it too.  Encouraging.  I just wonder how hard the editor had to grit his teeth.  Seems that the everyday reader should come away with the message being that the language is too broad.  My take.

That's not what's going to happen.  During Issue 9, the Enquirer kept publishing easily discredited anti-streetcar stuff after they came out against the ballot issue in their Sunday forum section.  During this whole lead-up to Issue 48, they have rarely mentioned issue 9.  Nobody on the radio seems to remember Issue 9 whatsoever, despite dedicating hours of airtime to it just two years ago.

That's not what's going to happen.  During Issue 9, the Enquirer kept publishing easily discredited anti-streetcar stuff after they came out against the ballot issue in their Sunday forum section.  During this whole lead-up to Issue 48, they have rarely mentioned issue 9.  Nobody on the radio seems to remember Issue 9 whatsoever, despite dedicating hours of airtime to it just two years ago.

 

I have to agree.  Now that The Enquirer has said what it should've said long ago about the ballot issue language, I suspect it'll revert to the the usual way it's been covering the Streetcar.  I doubt if the obviously-biased Horstman's been taken off the story, even though others have been doing more of the reporting of late.  I hope I'm wrong.   

 

In addition -- and much to the detriment of our community -- the paper's aggrandized Smitherman.  It'll be interesting to see if it officially endorses his candidacy.

They aim for plausible deniability.

 

They won't endorse Smitherman. They probably won't endorse Issue 48, either.

Update: earlier in the week, the Enquirer print edition announced that Sunday's Forum section would be dedicated to the streetcar ballot language.  Instead, these streetcar issues were printed in the Local section.  Meanwhile, the front page article panning Obama's visit to Cincinnati next week looked like it had been ghost written by the national Republican party -- Obama was definitely put on the defensive.  From his perspective, visiting Cincinnati steals this issue from various local Republicans (Lippert, Schmidt, etc.), which raises the specter of local republicans changing their narrative for supporting the project.   

 

My point is that while this streetcar ballot language article wasn't completely buried (top of the fold of the local section), it definitely was overshadowed in the print edition by the Brent Spence Bridge article and something on deteriorating churches.  It was maybe the #3 story in today's paper, but that would be pushing it.  So don't expect what was discussed to soak into the public consciousness.   

That article was laying the groundwork for Enquirer opposing Issue 48. They don't want the streetcar to die, because the controversy would die with it. That controversy is their bread & butter.

 

They can advocate for both sides by egging on the clown show of the opposition, giving them a soapbox and advertising their ballot petition. Then when it comes to the actual ballot issue, they need to fall back on the facts a little bit to keep the issue alive.

That's not what's going to happen.  During Issue 9, the Enquirer kept publishing easily discredited anti-streetcar stuff after they came out against the ballot issue in their Sunday forum section.  During this whole lead-up to Issue 48, they have rarely mentioned issue 9.  Nobody on the radio seems to remember Issue 9 whatsoever, despite dedicating hours of airtime to it just two years ago.

 

Then make this the Issue 48 campaign soundbite: "Just what part of 'no' didn't you understand? Vote no on Issue 48 -- again."

BTW- Omnicare's move adds ANOTHER Fortune 500 company to the streetcar route.

That article was laying the groundwork for Enquirer opposing Issue 48. They don't want the streetcar to die, because the controversy would die with it. That controversy is their bread & butter.

 

They can advocate for both sides by egging on the clown show of the opposition, giving them a soapbox and advertising their ballot petition. Then when it comes to the actual ballot issue, they need to fall back on the facts a little bit to keep the issue alive.

 

Remember, the typical reader is interested in human interest stories, not boring  technical facts about grades and projected ridership numbers. A photo of Tom Luken generates a lot more interest than a route map. While I personally am skeptical of the supposed benefits of the streetcar (redevelopment of OTR, etc.,) and I think the Enquirer is too, my opinion is that the Enquirer is giving the opposition more attention than they would normally deserve, simply because the Enquirer is rooting for the underdog to make the fight last longer. 

 

This streetcar issue has gone beyond the streetcar itself, and is becoming a grudge match between personalities. That's what makes a good story!

BTW- Omnicare's move adds ANOTHER Fortune 500 company to the streetcar route.

 

That's not why they are moving.

BTW- Omnicare's move adds ANOTHER Fortune 500 company to the streetcar route.

 

That's not why they are moving.

 

And that was never implied.

http://www.citybeat.com/cincinnati/blog-2402-does_naacp_approve_of_coast_hijinks.html

 

"Does NAACP approve of COAST Hijinks?"

 

Apparently one of Amy Murray's volunteers for her campaign, who is black, posted this picture on facebook tagging Mark Miller of COAST.  Inserted into the picture description he wrote "This is actually might happen lol"

 

 

 

This just 9 days after Mark Miller's infamous tweet of :

 

"On Sept. 11, Miller generated buzz on Twitter with the following post: “3% of FDNY died 10 yrs ago by terrorism. Today Cincinnati lost 17.5% of fire companies by brownout to pay for a streetcar. Which is worse?”

 

'When informed about the photo, Murray acted quickly to tell Farris that she didn't support it and thought it was improper.

 

“I don't think it's appropriate at all and I told him he needs to take it down,” Murray said. Farris has no official connection to Murray's campaign, she said, adding. “He's a college volunteer who will come and march in parades.” '

via @CincyChamber Twitter account: Cincinnati USA Regional Chamber announces positions on six state and local ballot issues. http://t.co/gBRQE1g9

 

Recommends a NO vote on 48.

As far as I can tell, the following candidates all oppose Issue 48 and support the streetcar:

 

Kathy Atkinson

Kevin Flynn

Nicholas Hollan

Roxanne Qualls

Laure Quinlivan

Jason Riveiro

Chris Seelbach

Yvette Simpson

Cecil Thomas

Wendell Young

 

 

(There are others that claim to oppose Issue 48 but don't support the streetcar... but I'll let you do that research on your own.)

^ This is correct. Ten candidates total.

Chamber against Issue 48

4:54 PM, Sep. 20, 2011

 

 

The Cincinnati USA Regional Chamber on Tuesday said it's against a proposed Cincinnati charter amendment that would prohibit funding a streetcar system until 2020.

 

The chamber's formal opposition to the anti-streetcar issue was one of six state and local ballot issues on which the region's largest business group took a position.

 

http://news.cincinnati.com/article/20110920/BIZ01/109210331/Chamber-against-Issue-48?odyssey=tab|topnews|text|

BTW- Omnicare's move adds ANOTHER Fortune 500 company to the streetcar route.

 

That's not why they are moving.

 

Of course that's not why THEY are moving.  Nor did I say that or imply that in anyway, and your consistent and bizarre snarky remarks are getting old. 

 

For the future success of the route, etc. it adds another major company to the route.  This is a good thing.

Whatever. It was implied that there a company moving along the streetcar route, but the same statement can be said about the countless businesses that move monthly to interstate highways. You force a connection to the reader that a business chose a location in downtown specifically because of the streetcar, similar to what the streetcar blog does, which is read as "businesses locate along the streetcar route because of the streetcar." In reality, they move because of tax breaks and cheaper rent - the Atrium tower is dirt cheap compared to other buildings in terms of leases.

 

I can't think of really any major business that has moved to a location along the streetcar line because of the streetcar. It's usually a side benefit after it is built.

^ Yup, definitely never ever is part of any benefit to a company.  You seem to live in a land where it's either 100% the reason (never true) or it's 100% never considered.  No one is moving NOW to be on the streetcar line because no one even knows if it will be built.  But once under construction, just like in many cities across the country, it will be a factor.

 

http://crosscut.com/2007/10/01/amazon/7918/Amazon-plans-a-headquarters-move-to-South-Lake-Union/

If anyone is interested, the Business Courier is running a poll on their homepage asking how you would vote on Issue 48.  At the moment the "Yes" vote is winning pretty handily:

 

http://www.bizjournals.com/cincinnati/

If anyone is interested, the Business Courier is running a poll on their homepage asking how you would vote on Issue 48.  At the moment the "Yes" vote is winning pretty handily:

 

http://www.bizjournals.com/cincinnati/

 

What a confusing poll.  I am against the ballot measure, for the streetcar, and would vote no on Issue 48. 

Whatever. It was implied that there a company moving along the streetcar route, but the same statement can be said about the countless businesses that move monthly to interstate highways. You force a connection to the reader that a business chose a location in downtown specifically because of the streetcar, similar to what the streetcar blog does, which is read as "businesses locate along the streetcar route because of the streetcar."

 

Yeah... It's called marketing. They aren't lying or attempting to mislead.

Whatever. It was implied that there a company moving along the streetcar route, but the same statement can be said about the countless businesses that move monthly to interstate highways. You force a connection to the reader that a business chose a location in downtown specifically because of the streetcar, similar to what the streetcar blog does, which is read as "businesses locate along the streetcar route because of the streetcar." In reality, they move because of tax breaks and cheaper rent - the Atrium tower is dirt cheap compared to other buildings in terms of leases.

 

He never implied that at all. He implied that it connects another large business along the route meaning there could be more potential riders.

 

What a confusing poll.  I am against the ballot measure, for the streetcar, and would vote no on Issue 48. 

 

Wow, that's very confusing! It's so confusing that I can't even vote in the poll.

 

BTW, don't know if you all saw this:

 

http://www.fta.dot.gov/news/news_events_13017.html

 

U.S. Transportation Secretary Ray LaHood Awards $25 Million for Charlotte Streetcar to Improve Access to Jobs, Boost Economic Growth

 

09-19-11

Contact: Justin Nisly

Telephone: 202-366-4570

 

FTA 43-11

 

Investments in Transportation Projects Part of President Obama’s Vision to Create Jobs

 

CHARLOTTE, N.C. – U.S. Transportation Secretary Ray LaHood and Federal Transit Administrator Peter Rogoff today joined with Charlotte Mayor Anthony Foxx at Central Piedmont Community College to award the City of Charlotte with nearly $25 million for a streetcar line that will improve access to jobs, housing, and schools, and will spur economic development in the heart of one of the nation's fastest-growing metropolitan areas.  They also called on Congress to immediately pass President Obama's American Jobs Act, which will invest in job-creating transportation projects like the Charlotte Streetcar all across the country.

 

"Putting American workers on transportation construction sites in cities like Charlotte is a crucial part of the President's vision for the future of this country," said Secretary LaHood. "Unemployed construction workers across the country are ready to roll up their sleeves right now.  Congress needs to pass the American Jobs Act right away and to put America back to work."

 

Six stops will be built as part of the initial 1.5-mile section of the Charlotte Streetcar Project, including the Charlotte Transportation Center near Time-Warner Cable Arena, the city's Government Center, McDowell Street, Central Piedmont Community College, Travis Avenue and Presbyterian Hospital. This is the first phase of a planned 10-mile streetcar line that will serve the entire metropolitan Charlotte area.

 

"We are committed to helping Charlotte build innovative transportation options that connect local workers with housing and employment opportunities springing up around Center City," said Administrator Rogoff. "This project will provide jobs for construction workers today, as well as safe, reliable transit choices to residents for years to come."

 

The City of Charlotte has acquired three vintage streetcars to be used for the project, which is funded through the Federal Transit Administration's Urban Circulator Grant Program.  The Charlotte Area Transportation System (CATS) will operate and maintain the streetcar system once it is constructed.

 

Also attending today's event were construction workers from the CATS North Davidson Bus Facility nearby, which was recently renovated and expanded with $20 million of American Recovery and Reinvestment Act (ARRA) funds.  Approximately 150 jobs were created over the last two years at the facility, which will improve the efficiency of operating and maintaining up to 200 buses.

 

Secretary LaHood also called on Congress to immediately pass an extension of the surface transportation bill, which is set to expire on September 30, so that crucial projects like the Charlotte Streetcar Project are not put in jeopardy. If Congress allows the current surface transportation extension to expire, more than 4,000 federal employees will immediately go without pay. If Congress delays actions for just 10 days beyond that, nearly $1 billion in funding that could be spent on construction projects across the nation would be lost. And if Congress waits even longer, almost 1 million workers could be in danger of losing their jobs over the next year.

 

# # #

^Interesting that the project includes 3 vintage streetcars. 

 

 

Charlotte had a fake-vintage streetcar line (and not much else in its tiny and totally empty downtown) when I visited in 1997.  It didn't operate in the street but rather on a freight right-of-way and was used for tourist "excursions", not day-to-day transportation.  It had some old-style streetcars on it and I'd bet that they're using those for this project.  This streetcar line was scrapped and rebuilt as the LYNX light rail between 2005 and 2007, which is, incidentally, a huge success despite the attempts of a COAST-ish group to stop it mid-construction (they attempted to repeal the transit tax in 2006).  The line now attracts about 20,000 riders a day, doubling its projection, and 72% of riders didn't use transit before, despite a bus line paralleling the rail line. 

 

Whatever. It was implied that there a company moving along the streetcar route, but the same statement can be said about the countless businesses that move monthly to interstate highways. You force a connection to the reader that a business chose a location in downtown specifically because of the streetcar, similar to what the streetcar blog does, which is read as "businesses locate along the streetcar route because of the streetcar." In reality, they move because of tax breaks and cheaper rent - the Atrium tower is dirt cheap compared to other buildings in terms of leases.

 

I can't think of really any major business that has moved to a location along the streetcar line because of the streetcar. It's usually a side benefit after it is built.

 

maybe this isn't a "major" business, but there are companies that move to a location because of a streetcar.  Companies rarely ever move to a specific location because of one, and only one, reason.

 

http://www.soapboxmedia.com/devnews/0519rookwood.aspx

http://www.citybeat.com/cincinnati/blog-2402-does_naacp_approve_of_coast_hijinks.html

 

"Does NAACP approve of COAST Hijinks?"

 

Apparently one of Amy Murray's volunteers for her campaign, who is black, posted this picture on facebook tagging Mark Miller of COAST.  Inserted into the picture description he wrote "This is actually might happen lol"

 

 

 

This just 9 days after Mark Miller's infamous tweet of :

 

"On Sept. 11, Miller generated buzz on Twitter with the following post: “3% of FDNY died 10 yrs ago by terrorism. Today Cincinnati lost 17.5% of fire companies by brownout to pay for a streetcar. Which is worse?”

 

'When informed about the photo, Murray acted quickly to tell Farris that she didn't support it and thought it was improper.

 

“I don't think it's appropriate at all and I told him he needs to take it down,” Murray said. Farris has no official connection to Murray's campaign, she said, adding. “He's a college volunteer who will come and march in parades.” '

 

 

 

Are they more afraid of that, or more afraid of this?

 

Whatever. It was implied that there a company moving along the streetcar route, but the same statement can be said about the countless businesses that move monthly to interstate highways. You force a connection to the reader that a business chose a location in downtown specifically because of the streetcar, similar to what the streetcar blog does, which is read as "businesses locate along the streetcar route because of the streetcar." In reality, they move because of tax breaks and cheaper rent - the Atrium tower is dirt cheap compared to other buildings in terms of leases.

 

I can't think of really any major business that has moved to a location along the streetcar line because of the streetcar. It's usually a side benefit after it is built.

 

Big corporations aren't going to relocate just because of a potential future streetcar line.  But tons of small businesses and residents have moved in because of the streetcar, and this has been well documented on sites like Soapbox and the CincyStreetcar Blog.

^Links?

^

 

I moved home from Washington D.C. bought a house on the streetcar line, and am now investing $250k+ into a house that has been abandoned since 2004. Had issue 9 passed i would have stayed in D.C.

^Links?

 

Even better, watch the business owners, community leaders and residents explain why they prefer the streetcar via Youtube video!

 

http://www.youtube.com/user/CincinnatiStreetcar

Candidates On: The Planned Streetcar System

by Kevin Osbourne

CityBeat

As part of CityBeat's continuing election coverage, we’ve once again sent a questionnaire to the non-incumbent Cincinnati City Council candidates to get their reactions on a broad range of issues.

 

Nine of the 14 non-incumbents chose to answer our questions. Others either didn’t respond or couldn’t meet the deadline.

 

During the next few weeks, we will print the responses from the non-incumbents to a different topic each time.

 

Today’s question is, “Do you support or oppose the city's streetcar system as currently planned and financed?”

 

My favorite answer:

Sandra Queen Noble (Independent): “I'm innate Law Enforcement. I'll hold government officials criminally accountable for not exercising fiscal discipline with public funds used to pay off city, state, county and federal Revere deficits. Stop railroading the public funds. My idea is to turn car and truck windows into LDS screens for instant 3D Internet and entertainment assets. It will save time and trouble carting mobile laptop appendages everywhere you travel. Now, thats enhancement and advancement that wont charge the public $13 million.”

She has my vote! It's always such a pain carrying my mobile laptop appendage. LDS screens for all! (And LSD screening for Ms. Queen Noble.)

In the same article it's worth noting that while P.G. Sittenfield continues to waffle on the streetcar itself, he has explicitly come out against Issue 48.

In the same article it's worth noting that while P.G. Sittenfield continues to waffle on the streetcar itself, he has explicitly come out against Issue 48.

 

I consider that an extension of the waffling. It allows him to be for the streetcar and against it, in an attempt to appeal to voters on both sides of the issue.

 

Bottom line is, I don't trust him on this. Even though the logical consequence is that he would support the streetcar if Issue 48 is voted down. It's too much double-talk!

It would be ironic to defeat Issue 48 on the same day five streetcar opponents are elected to City Council.