Don't Houston have ALOT of accidents with their rail?

 

No. But there were a lot of car accidents as motorists illegally drove into the path of trains. I love how the media calls something a train crash when some idiot drove into the path of train. The train didn't hit the car. The motorist got in the way of the train which has the right of way and endangered the train, its crew and the customers served by that train.

 

Now that my rant is over, I can tell you that the number of car accidents involving trains in Houston has dropped significantly in recent years as word gets out that ignoring a train can be hazardous to your health.

Don't Houston have ALOT of accidents with their rail?

 

No. But there were a lot of car accidents as motorists illegally drove into the path of trains. I love how the media calls something a train crash when some idiot drove into the path of train. The train didn't hit the car. The motorist got in the way of the train which has the right of way and endangered the train, its crew and the customers served by that train.

 

Now that my rant is over, I can tell you that the number of car accidents involving trains in Houston has dropped significantly in recent years as word gets out that ignoring a train can be hazardous to your health.

 

I read an article last night that the years before construction of the light rail (1998-2000), the Main Street Corridor averaged 7.3 traffic collisions per DAY.  After the train opened, the year of 2004 saw 63 auto-train collisions. 

 

I sounds like there might have been a reduction in collisions....and it CERTAINLY sounds like the high volume of collisions is not a result of the train.

During the Issue 48 debates, Mr Finney pointed out population loss in towns like Philadelphia.

This Renn guy has an interesting take on population shifts

http://www.urbanophile.com/2011/11/10/back-to-the-city/

>I read an article last night that the years before construction of the light rail (1990-1991), the Main Street Corridor averaged 7.3 traffic collisions per DAY.  After the train opened, the year of 1994 saw 63 auto-train collisions.  I sounds like there might have been a reduction in collisions....and it CERTAINLY sounds like the high volume of collisions is not a result of the train.

 

I would love to see the source for this statistic, and it would be useful to have Cincinnati's accident statistics on hand when the media goes ape over the first streetcar accident.

 

I haven't been to Houston since this line was built, but I was there twice beforehand and am familiar with Main St. because one of my friends went to Rice.  Houston is a sprawl-lover's paradise, so I'd like to go back and see what effect this line has had so far as influencing development and pedestrian usage.  When I was there, Main St. was totally unremarkable, like the rest of our nation's 4th largest city. 

>I read an article last night that the years before construction of the light rail (1998-2000), the Main Street Corridor averaged 7.3 traffic collisions per DAY.  After the train opened, the year of 2004 saw 63 auto-train collisions.  I sounds like there might have been a reduction in collisions....and it CERTAINLY sounds like the high volume of collisions is not a result of the train.

 

I would love to see the source for this statistic, and it would be useful to have Cincinnati's accident statistics on hand when the media goes ape over the first streetcar accident.

 

I haven't been to Houston since this line was built, but I was there twice beforehand and am familiar with Main St. because one of my friends went to Rice.  Houston is a sprawl-lover's paradise, so I'd like to go back and see what effect this line has had so far as influencing development and pedestrian usage.  When I was there, Main St. was totally unremarkable, like the rest of our nation's 4th largest city. 

 

Here's the editorial I read.  It gives references to the Houston Chronicle on specific dates, but a search of the Chron website didn't return any real articles for me:  http://www.lightrailnow.org/features/f_hou_2005-01.htm

 

 

Also, please not that I've corrected my dates...I was off by a decade.  Whoops... :)

Thanks for the link.  I think that the flatness and monotony of Houston causes drivers to get into a zone similar to driving between cities on the interstate.  You just sort of float around at 35-40mph and don't have to pay much attention to anything until you get near an interstate interchange. 

 

In statistic after statistic, the old cities comprised almost entirely of the sort of irregular intersections that traffic engineers hate turn out to be safer overall.  It's because the overall average speed is lower and people keep a certain base level of attention in areas with sidewalks were pedestrians routinely cross.  Yet we have people on this very forum who are convinced that salvation lies in widening turn radii by 20 feet.   

 

Now that my rant is over, I can tell you that the number of car accidents involving trains in Houston has dropped significantly in recent years as word gets out that ignoring a train can be hazardous to your health.

 

Guys found out that buying an F-250 instead of an F-150 didn't help at all when colliding with a train, so they started actually paying attention to their driving.

It makes me sick to my stomach that a sprawling Texas city like Houston has light rail, while we have to fight "tooth and nail" just to get a measly streetcar. *sigh*

Look at the stats that Dallas cites for TOD...with 50+ miles of rail, they claim to have attracted $7 billion.  Meanwhile the Portland Streetcar has attracted half that with just 3 or 4 miles of track. 

 

Here is the newest DART line, which opened earlier this year:

 

You're riding on upwards of $1 billion worth of track in that video, and none of the station locations are good because the line appears to follow an old freight rail line. 

 

Wish we had Ohioans thinking toward the future.

Wish we had Ohioans thinking toward the future.

 

You do, otherwise COAST, Smitherman et al would have nothing to oppose.

 

And there are cities in Ohio where can take rail transit to stations where this more TOD sprouting up....

 

http://mildlyrelevantthoughts.com/2011/09/cleveland-public-transportation/

 

Back when Houston's line opened there was an article in one of the railroad magazines about the accidents. About the same time, Judi Craig in Cincinnati was pushing for the Kingsport Corridor from Kings Island to the Airport through downtown. I mentioned the Houston issue to her.

 

The issue in Houston seems to be a traffic flow problem that could be avoided by careful design. Namely, automobiles were turning right across the light rail, which ran in the curb lane, and getting hit from behind when the light rail vehicle didn't stop. Automobile drivers are NOT used to looking behind them before making a right turn.

 

The same thing happens with bicycles, except that usually the bicycleist stops before crashing into the car. When riding a bike, I have probably had more near-misses from this movement than any other. Basicly, I'm riding along the curb at say 15 miles per hour and a car passes me at 30. The car slows down to 10 to make a right turn. I catch up with the car and slam on the brakes to keep from hitting it as it makes the turn.

 

The way to address this problem it to prohibit cars from crossing the light rail to make the turn, either by prohibiting the right turn altogether, or making the light rail and the automobile share the turning lane. In downtown Cincinnati, there are lots of intersections with dual left and right turning lanes. The engineering required to make it work safely is no small task. 

 

Streetcars or light rail running in the street is NOT simple, especially in places where drivers are not expecting it. Downtown Cincinnati has a system where all the traffic lights are coordinated and optimized for automobiles, and it has been that way for at least 30 years. Ever notice that if you drive on Sixth Street at 25 mph that once you get past the first stoplight all the rest turn green just before you arrive? A streetcar making stops to pick up passengers is NOT going to be able to take advantage of the existing signal timing.

 

 

No. But there were a lot of car accidents as motorists illegally drove into the path of trains. I love how the media calls something a train crash when some idiot drove into the path of train. The train didn't hit the car. The motorist got in the way of the train which has the right of way and endangered the train, its crew and the customers served by that train.

 

The train DID hit the car. Why would you say otherwise?

 

Competition for street space was one of the factors why historic streetcars and interurbans went out of business. Every accident at the minimum causes delays, not to mention possible damage to the vehicle and injuries to the driver and passengers. Accidents cost money to the operator.

 

The ideal solution is to lay out the route and make the proper street improvements to avoid conflicting movements. This is more effective than enforcement of right-of-way laws. Since when do drivers follow laws? A pet peeve of mine is that drivers are supposed to stop at marked crosswalks if someone is trying to cross the street. They rarely do. Of course, I'm not going to step in front of a car to test them, and then sue them in court if I get hit. Chances are I won't survive the accident and won't be able to argue that the pedestrian has the right of way.

 

Finally, Houston is a growing city, and a world-class one at that. The oil industry and the ship canal are mostly responsible for that. It's much easier to add light rail to a growing city than one that is stagnant or declining. Plus, it's flat, and has wide streets.

 

 

 

It makes me sick to my stomach that a sprawling Texas city like Houston has light rail, while we have to fight "tooth and nail" just to get a measly streetcar. *sigh*

 

Isn't theirs just a light rail system that doesn't go anywhere else besides the downtown?  I could be wrong.  At least this is a start, and I am pretty pumped that this is happening in Cincinnati.  When is construction going to start?  I am moving back to Ohio mid December and plan on stopping in Cincinnati, and seeing this underconstruction would be pretty kickass.

>Namely, automobiles were turning right across the light rail, which ran in the curb lane,

 

No, the line travels along a landscaped median, not the curb.  The problem is vehicles making left turns:

 

I don't understand how these people are this stupid. 

 

Since when do drivers follow laws?

 

Um, like, every day?

>Namely, automobiles were turning right across the light rail, which ran in the curb lane,

 

No, the line travels along a landscaped median, not the curb.  The problem is vehicles making left turns:

 

I don't understand how these people are this stupid. 

 

 

most of those left turns were prohibited.  I guess traffic rules are optional in some minds. 

The problem is vehicles making left turns:

 

My mistake. Still, it's a conflicting movement, and automobiles were being hit from behind.

 

I don't understand how these people are this stupid. 

 

They are not stupid. The following comes from Traffic Accidents and Congestion, Maxwell Halsey, 1941.

 

"Present operating conditions are too complex for average drivers. The major portion of the accident situation is not cause by incompetence or malice upon the part of the driver, but results from the inability of the driver to make safe adjustments...

 

The answer to improved transportation does not lie in blaming the motorist. Experience shows that, whenever a situation has become too complex for human beings, costly human failures result. The answer cannot lie with changing human beings. It must, therefore, lie in simplifying the situation to a point where the individual can handle it safely and expeditiously.

 

If it is assumed that there is no malice on the part of the motorist, the very occurrence of accidents becomes concrete proof that that present operating conditions are too complex for him to handle.

 

...Therefore, it appears that ultimate success will come only through the provision of facilities which are as automatic as possible, which require few critical decisions, and upon which critical acts are pratically impossible."

 

 

I'm not saying it can't be done in Cincinnati. I'm just saying that I think the situation is more complicated than it's given credit for. I don't want Cincinnati's streetcar to have a bunch of accidents in the first year, like Houston's light rail. Neither do I want the streetcar to get stuck in traffic so badly that it's useless. Careful traffic engineering should solve the problem. But to build the streetcar without any consideration of existing traffic patterns, and then blame accidents on motorists is NOT the solution.

 

And by the way, streetcars in Ohio do not legally have right-of-way over other vehicles. If a streetcar hits another vehicle from behind, it is the fault of the streetcar operator:

 

Ohio Revised Code 4511.34 Space between moving vehicles.

(A) The operator of a motor vehicle, streetcar, or trackless trolley shall not follow another vehicle, streetcar, or trackless trolley more closely than is reasonable and prudent, having due regard for the speed of such vehicle, streetcar, or trackless trolley, and the traffic upon and the condition of the highway.

 

>

 

I don't understand how these people are this stupid.

 

I had a soccer mom with a mini-van full of kids try to race me in Victory Parkway while it was snowing...

 

Don't underestimate the stupidity of humanity

Since when do drivers follow laws?

 

Um, like, every day?

 

Digest of Ohio Motor Vehicle Laws:

A driver must yield the right of way to a pedestrian in a marked crosswalk, or at an unmarked crosswalk at an intersection.

 

This one is consistently ignored, and not enforced. The pedestrian is the one that suffers for it.

 

>They are not stupid.

 

These people are really stupid -- they somehow didn't notice the...TRAIN traveling immediately to their left.  Your quote is flawed in that it assumes a soccer mom is the equal of a professional race car driver. 

 

Streetcars were vanquished from America's streets in part by the car company propaganda blaming the streetcars for car accidents.  Never mind that the streetcars had been there for decades prior, and the streetcars don't spontaneously swerve into oncoming traffic or any of that.  It's basically as stupid as blaming a tree or telephone pole for you wrecking into it. 

 

Drivers do not run into trees or telephone poles on purpose. They do so because they are incapable of properly assessing the situation and adjusting for it.

 

If you plot on a map traffic accidents as reported by police, you will quickly notice that traffic accidents do not happen randomly. They happen mostly at places with a lot of conflicting movements, principally at intersections. Highways with a lot of frantic lane-changing are also high on the accident list.

 

Yes, there are some people who are not capable of driving safely. They should not be driving.

 

When the traffic situation is too complicated for the AVERAGE driver, there tend to be a lot of accidents. Adding streetcars to an area that is already too complicated will only make accidents worse, unless something is done to compensate.

 

In the Houston example, I don't think blaming drivers is an effective solution. Instead, the situation should be made less complicated, by making the light rail line an exclusive right-of-way, or prohibiting left turns across the rail line.

Alternatively, a driver education program or marketing effort could make drivers more aware of the light rail. It seems that media coverage of the accidents plus some effort in education has reduced the number of accidents.

 

As for the streetcars being there first, that's ancient history. The present driving population, except for a few elderly, has never seen a streetcar in Cincinnati. Historic streetcars may have been there first, but the proposed Cincinnati Streetcar that we are talking about WILL NOT have been there first. (The same argument applies to existing utilities.) The proposed Cincinnati Streetcar is the newcomer, and it is the responsibility of the streetcar operators to make the necessary adjustments to existing utilities and existing traffic patterns.

 

Downtown Cincinnati has a traffic system where all the signals are coordinated with each other to facilitate traffic movement, and all of the pavement markings are designed to match. This system has been in place for over 30 years. The streetcar is going to have to either conform to this traffic system, or adjustments will have to be made.

 

There are many places downtown where there are two lanes that turn left or right. If the streetcar is in the curb lane, then the streetcar will conflict with the turning lane away from the curb. If the streetcar is in the second lane away from the curb, then passengers will have to cross one lane of traffic to board the streetcar.  If the streetcar picks up passengers from the curb lane and then switches lanes (on a fixed track, at that) then the lane switching presents a potential conflict.

 

I believe that these conflicts can be resolved, but not without some difficulty. Some possible solutions are to put the track in the curb lane, and prohibit a left or right turn from the second lane. Or, put the streetcar in the second lane from the curb, and place a "bump out" in the curb lane at stops, to keep automobiles out of the curb lane.

 

I would not even be opposed to prohibiting automobile traffic alltogether, or at least restricting it, in order to decrease the volume of automobiles on the streets with the streetcar. Best of all, put the streetcar in an exclusive right-of-way. Of course, then it wouldn't be a streetcar, but the users don't know the difference. 

 

1. <br>

 

2.<br>

 

3.<br>

 

 

 

It makes me sick to my stomach that a sprawling Texas city like Houston has light rail, while we have to fight "tooth and nail" just to get a measly streetcar. *sigh*

 

Please read the history of how long and how hard it took for progress to prevail in Houston. Especially read about the opposition groups' ties to highway/oil lobbies (think of what big companies are located in Houston!) and what since-disgraced U.S. Rep. Tom DeLay and former Houston Mayor Bob Lanier did to fight the project. DeLay cut off all federal funding to the starter rail line, so Houston funded it entirely with local funds!

 

The major difference with Cincy is that Houston Chronicle was very supportive of light rail (even biased in support of it) whereas the Cincinnati Enquirer has often taken a decidedly critical view of rail in Cincy. The battle for building rail in Houston had been going on ever since I got involved in rail advocacy back in the early 1980s. We often see the result of years, if not decades, of struggle to get something built and not appreciate the fight that was required to get there.

 

This is worth reading: http://www.planetizen.com/node/38721

 

 

 

The train DID hit the car. Why would you say otherwise?

 

 

That's cool. But if I see a boxer working out on a punching bag, I'll be damned if I'm going to run between the boxer and the bag. And if I do, then sure -- technically the boxer will have hit me. But that doesn't mean he should be blamed for it. And if I didn't see something so obvious as a fast-punching boxer (or a big train with bells and strobe lights), then I deserve what happens to me next. There's only so much you can do to protect people. Some people cannot be protected.

 

 

Isn't theirs just a light rail system that doesn't go anywhere else besides the downtown?  I could be wrong.  At least this is a start, and I am pretty pumped that this is happening in Cincinnati.  When is construction going to start?  I am moving back to Ohio mid December and plan on stopping in Cincinnati, and seeing this underconstruction would be pretty kickass.

 

Not at all. Houston started out with a 7.5-mile line that today carries 34,155 people per day. The line starts downtown and extends to the South Loop Freeway (I-610) in the southern suburbs. With the success of this first line, three more rail lines were funded and are being built.

 

Here is what Houston has built and is building. The North, East and Southeast lines are under construction right now. For updates and details, see: http://www.ridemetro.org/CurrentProjects/METRORailExpansion.aspx

 

Streetcars were vanquished from America's streets in part by the car company propaganda blaming the streetcars for car accidents.  Never mind that the streetcars had been there for decades prior, and the streetcars don't spontaneously swerve into oncoming traffic or any of that.  It's basically as stupid as blaming a tree or telephone pole for you wrecking into it. 

 

There are lots of examples of historic streetcars swerving into traffic and doing all kinds of other crazy movements. In Cincinnati, the two tracks of the the Mt. Healthy line crossed each other, and proceeded to travel in the left-hand lane. On Warsaw at Glenway, streetcars did the same around a curve.

 

Here's a photo of a streetcar going the wrong way on a one-way street. Of course, the streetcar was there first, and one could say that traffic engineers made the street go the wrong way.  Note the warning sign saying "Cable Car Coming."

 

 

I'll be damned if I'm going to run between the boxer and the bag.

 

That's assuming that you even SEE the boxer. In Houston, the drivers that were hit probably didn't see the light rail train, or at least didn't expect it to cross their path. In Cincinnati, there was an accident a few years ago where a train crashed into an ambulance. The ambulance driver apparently thought that he had the right-of-way, and that the train was going to stop. Wrong answer!

 

Clearly, there was a problem in Houston that the operators didn't design for, or didn't account for.

 

In Ohio, Railroad operators have spent millions on public education, grade separation, and grade crossing signals. In theory, crashes between a train and an automobile are the automobile driver's fault, 100% of the time, no questions asked. Yet, it is not good practice for railroads to ignore crossing accidents, because it is the driver's fault. Accidents at the very least cause delays on the part of the railroad, which costs money. Fortunately, railroad accidents in Ohio are down, largely because of efforts by the railroads and the State of Ohio.

 

Houston funded it entirely with local funds!

 

Sometimes if you want something done right, you have to do it yourself.

I'll be damned if I'm going to run between the boxer and the bag.

 

 

Houston funded it entirely with local funds!

 

Sometimes if you want something done right, you have to do it yourself.

 

Houston didn't choose to build its first rail line with local funds only. Its former congressman, Tom DeLay, put language in the 2005 Federal transportation bill stating that no Federal funds could be used for light rail in Houston. Sort of an early-day Shannon Jones.

I'll be damned if I'm going to run between the boxer and the bag.

 

That's assuming that you even SEE the boxer. In Houston, the drivers that were hit probably didn't see the light rail train, or at least didn't expect it to cross their path. In Cincinnati, there was an accident a few years ago where a train crashed into an ambulance. The ambulance driver apparently thought that he had the right-of-way, and that the train was going to stop. Wrong answer!

 

Clearly, there was a problem in Houston that the operators didn't design for, or didn't account for.

 

It doesn't matter. Most of the people in the video ignored lane markings. They were in clearly marked ONLY lanes and either ignored that fact or weren't paying attention. If you do that on regular streets that don't have rail, it won't be too long until you get hit by a another car anyway.

During the Issue 48 debates, Mr Finney pointed out population loss in towns like Philadelphia.

This Renn guy has an interesting take on population shifts

http://www.urbanophile.com/2011/11/10/back-to-the-city/

That guy has posted the charts for the 3 Cs in Ohio.

http://www.urbanohio.com/forum2/index.php/topic,26569.0.html

 

Houston didn't choose to build its first rail line with local funds only. Its former congressman, Tom DeLay, put language in the 2005 Federal transportation bill stating that no Federal funds could be used for light rail in Houston. Sort of an early-day Shannon Jones.

 

Would that make her followers in SW Ohio parishoners of Shannon Jones' Church of Latter Day Aint's?

The election brought very exciting news for the streetcar. Now, when is the groundbreaking? Hopefully before the next election....,, :wink:

I went to the Bengals Steelers game sunday. They will have to close off the streets of the route or else it will be stuck in traffic on major event days.

I went to the Bengals Steelers game sunday. They will have to close off the streets of the route or else it will be stuck in traffic on major event days.

 

I think it would be appropriate to close off the streets with the streetcars around PBS/GABP to auto traffic on game days. It would allow for better pedestrian flow and better streetcar access... and encourage more people to take the streetcar.

http://www.urbancincy.com/2011/11/cincinnati-submits-56-8m-tiger-iii-application-to-fund-modern-streetcar-extension/

Sweet!

 

I love this move by the city and the fact that we'll know before the end of the year.  Smart play

 

 

If the city wins the Tiger III grant, have we lost any time by studying the shorter route? Has the environmental and utility planning been specific to the shorter route, or has it also included the Fountain Square - Banks and Findlay Market - Uptown segments? I would hate for the project to be delayed after the city won the grants.

My understanding is that the environmental and utility planning was done with the longer route in mind (others feel free to correct me on that if I'm wrong). Even if it hasn't, construction could still proceed on the initial downtown/OTR segment while final design work continues on the northern and southern extensions.

The TIGER application was submitted weeks ago, and a blogger in Korea scooped the entire Cincinnati media.

 

 

^ You are correct on the environmental work.  It was done with the entire route in mind, from the Banks to Uptown (near Kroger).

The TIGER application was submitted weeks ago, and a blogger in Korea scooped the entire Cincinnati media.

 

Slam on the Enquirer or the Cincy area bloggers?

The TIGER application was submitted weeks ago, and a blogger in Korea scooped the entire Cincinnati media.

 

Slam on the Enquirer or the Cincy area bloggers?

 

I could see why the city would want to keep this quiet prior to the election results. 

 

I think he's referring to the local media. 

The media frankly doesn't have an interest in covering these grants. If they admitted that the streetcar was being funded by grants specific to rail transportation, they would have to admit that funding is NOT coming from the city's operating fund. Then, they would no longer be able to present a false dilemma about whether the city will build a streetcar or pay for police and firefighters.

While I'd love to jump on the media here, I suspect the media is waiting to report whether the grant(s) get awarded or not. Anyone can submit a grant. But it's harder to win one and therefore the outcome is more newsworthy to the average reader. It is good news to all of us, however.

^ agreed.

With these Tiger III funds, would the extension to The Banks/GABP/Riverfront be built? I was really bummed to see this phase be cut out of the first line. While I have no doubt the streetcar will be successful without that extension, it seems like a no-brainer to connect it to The Banks, Ballpark and Transit Center.

 

Anyone have any idea what the chances are for Cincy winning? I wonder if our political climate affects the consideration of Cincy.

Anyone know what the matching funds is for federal dollars? 50/50? I remember i time when some places got 90% federal funds to 10% local match.

With these Tiger III funds, would the extension to The Banks/GABP/Riverfront be built? I was really bummed to see this phase be cut out of the first line. While I have no doubt the streetcar will be successful without that extension, it seems like a no-brainer to connect it to The Banks, Ballpark and Transit Center.

 

Anyone have any idea what the chances are for Cincy winning? I wonder if our political climate affects the consideration of Cincy.

 

http://fastlane.dot.gov/2011/11/tiger-iii-applications.html

 

The article says there are 828 applications from all 50 states, U.S. territories, and the District of Columbia.

 

 

With these Tiger III funds, would the extension to The Banks/GABP/Riverfront be built? I was really bummed to see this phase be cut out of the first line. While I have no doubt the streetcar will be successful without that extension, it seems like a no-brainer to connect it to The Banks, Ballpark and Transit Center.

 

Anyone have any idea what the chances are for Cincy winning? I wonder if our political climate affects the consideration of Cincy.

 

I'm not sure how much influence the president has/may have on something like this selection process, but I wonder if Mayor Mallory call make a call or two and pitch this. I know Obama and Mallory are friends and there has even been talk about a possible Mallory position in a second Obama term ... maybe this could help Cincinnati's chances of getting the OK?

Winning this grant and completing the uptown and riverfront segments would also be a satisfying political middle finger to Kasich on the eve of a presidential election year in an important swing state.

With these Tiger III funds, would the extension to The Banks/GABP/Riverfront be built? I was really bummed to see this phase be cut out of the first line. While I have no doubt the streetcar will be successful without that extension, it seems like a no-brainer to connect it to The Banks, Ballpark and Transit Center.

 

Anyone have any idea what the chances are for Cincy winning? I wonder if our political climate affects the consideration of Cincy.

 

To answer your first question, yes, the extensions to Uptown and The Banks would be covered by the grant. Re-read the UrbanCincy article.

As for the political climate, public support for rail development in Cincinnati was reaffirmed twice at the ballot box. Others have mentioned Mayor Mallory and the middle finger that this grant would raise to Kasich. And then there's a supportive City Council. If these facts regarding the political climate are conveyed to the Obama Administration, I think that improves Cincinnati's chances greatly.