Google his name.  Nothing comes up -- in fact nobody in the country appears to have the last name Leasburg.  I've been wondering for some time if all these letters are written by Mark Miller. 

 

There is no one in all of hamilton County registered to vote under the name Tom Leasburg, Thomas Leasburg or Leasburg with any first name.

 

No, seriously.  Google ANY random name and look at all of the random people finder website hit results.  Then do the same thing for Tom Leasburg.  He Does NOT exist anywhere on this planet.

Google his name.  Nothing comes up -- in fact nobody in the country appears to have the last name Leasburg.  I've been wondering for some time if all these letters are written by Mark Miller. 

 

There is no one in all of hamilton County registered to vote under the name Tom Leasburg, Thomas Leasburg or Leasburg with any first name.

 

No, seriously.  Google ANY random name and look at all of the random people finder website hit results.  Then do the same thing for Tom Leasburg.  He Does NOT exist anywhere on this planet.

 

Oh he exists alright.  In Mark Miller's mind

You'd think if he wanted to make up an alter ego to attack the streetcar he'd at least say he's from somewhere in the city.  Fairfield!?!  That's not even in Hamilton County.

You'd think if he wanted to make up an alter ego to attack the streetcar he'd at least say he's from somewhere in the city.  Fairfield!?!  That's not even in Hamilton County.

 

We cannot even begin to understand how that man's mind works.  Its one of the mysteries of the universe. 

 

We're better off not dwelling on understanding his ways

Fun fact, McCain took 70% of the vote in Fairfield.

 

 

So didn't the City put out some thing about getting quotes for building streetcars in September? Was there a timeline on that?

 

 

Also, a friend of mine at City Hall said if Cincy doesn't get full $58 million, the priority for whatever $ they do get will be riverfront before Vine street hill.

 

^ I think that's the way to go. A friend and I went to The Banks last night to try Johnny Rockets and things were hopping down there. I'm excited to see what it's like this summer when baseball games let out and I think the streetcar will be a great way to get people up the square/otr bars and such. I know I can't wait to use it. Not to mention the potential to connect with the RTC.

 

Also, a friend of mine at City Hall said if Cincy doesn't get full $58 million, the priority for whatever $ they do get will be riverfront before Vine street hill.

 

 

The streetcar won't be going south of Second Street. They have decided not to take it into the Banks. I'm guessing we'll get the Federal grant in December, order vehicles in January and have a groundbreaking in February.

 

The streetcar won't be going south of Second Street. They have decided not to take it into the Banks...

 

Considering what The Banks has become, both residentially and commercially, this route restriction just seems like another "faux pas" in the making.  Maybe a referendum to get the tracks extended will help--Chris Smitherman, where are you when we REALLY need you?  :wink2:

^ It was only going to go to Freedom Way. That's about a minute walk from Second Street. I don't see a problem.

^Exactly.  I never understood why they were even thinking of bringing it south of 2nd.  Let's hope that once it goes up the hill it stays both ways on Short Vine.

I don't see any problem with it not going south of 2nd. Yes, The Banks will be sizable. But, but stopping at 2nd, you're basically being taken to the front porch. Since when have you pulled into your driveway only to wish, "If only I could make it to the couch in my car." It's a bit pointless. Spend that money on additional track where it's more advantageous.

 

As far as I'm concerned--great news, John.

Do we know exactly in December when we are going to hear about this round of federal grants? 

^ They are supposed to be awarded by the end of the year.

I'm not going to get my hopes up or believe any construction dates until I actually see the construction with my own two eyes

 

Nothing personal against John or anyone else who have done a great job with this project, I've just heard construction dates for the last 2 years and nothing has come into fruition

 

Also, a friend of mine at City Hall said if Cincy doesn't get full $58 million, the priority for whatever $ they do get will be riverfront before Vine street hill.

 

The streetcar won't be going south of Second Street. They have decided not to take it into the Banks.

 

 

Interesting... My initial reaction was that this new alignment would allow for greater access to the Riverfront Transit Center, assuming a stop on the north side Second Street.

 

Unfortunately, a look at Google Maps street view of the area shows that there is only a stairwell between Walnut and Main. The nearest elevator is a block west between Walnut and Vine. (there are also elevators on the south side of Second at both Main and Walnut streets) Another potential problem at this area is currently it's no pedestrian crossing at Second on the east side of Walnut due to turn lanes.

 

Not that any of these situations can't be resolved...

Well, an editor's note ran below today's letter correcting the preposterous letter from last week.  Carl Weiser emailed me months ago assuring me that Barry Horstman did in fact walk 6mph to Findlay Market, so I'd expect them to argue that the county commissioners in 1996 were all Democrats, even though they were all Republicans. 

 

 

Stadium ‘fiasco’ not fault of Dems; blame all-GOP ex-county commissioners

12/05/11 at 9:00am

•Written by Letters Editor •2Comments •Raise Your Voice

 

The letter “Streetcar follows stadium debacle” (Dec. 2) blaming Democrats for “their stadium fiasco” places blame on the wrong doorstep. Let’s place responsibility where it belongs. The plan to raise the county sales tax to pay for the football and baseball stadiums was created, proposed, and pushed to a vote by the all-Republican Hamilton County commissioners. The huge cost overruns on construction of the football stadium were overseen by the all-Republican commissioners. The unbelieveably sweet stadium lease signed with Mike Brown, which is the main source of financial problems for the county, was negotiated and signed by the all-Republican commissioners. The prime mover in all this was Bob Bedinghaus, who famously came up with the plan at his kitchen table. Former Republican County Commissioner Bedinghaus is now a highly paid employee of the Bengals. Coincidence? “Fiasco” is an accurate description, but it was brought to us by the all-Republican Hamilton County Commissioners.

 

Frank Newbauer

 

North Avondale

 

(Editor’s note: In 1996, the Hamilton County Commissioners were Bob Bedinghaus, John Dowlin and Guy Gukenberger, all Republicans)

^Actually, they got the commissioners wrong, I think Neyer was appointed in 1996 before the May election.  Anyway, he was surely a commisioner during the lease negotiations. 

Correction, from his online bio:

 

Hamilton County Commissioner, February 1992 to February 1997

 

http://www.smartvoter.org/1999nov/oh/hm/vote/guckenberger_g/bio.html

 

Awww guess this will never happen!!!

 

 

^ I think the power of that image (IRL) should not be underestimated.

 

It's iconic, for one. Very powerful. But there's also the power of suggestion, beckoning people to catch a ride from the front door of the stadium (to restaurants or whatever up from the river) instead of walking to their cars. It shouts "convenience!"

 

I think that image has the potential to make a lot of people "get it", in terms of the benefits and potential of a streetcar system.

^ It was only going to go to Freedom Way. That's about a minute walk from Second Street. I don't see a problem.

 

Maybe they need the extra money for Duke negotiations?

I think it was a technical issue with building streetcar tracks over the parking garage.

 

Doesn't matter, IMO. The only people who would be upset about having to walk that extra block aren't likely to be riding the streetcar in the first place.

Is it going to run along 2nd's north sidewalk or south sidewalk? 

I would personally hope the south sidewalk...but then how would it swing back to the left turn lane to make the left? Seems dicey. IMHO Freedom Way seemed more comfortable.

I think it was a technical issue with building streetcar tracks over the parking garage.

 

Doesn't matter, IMO. The only people who would be upset about having to walk that extra block aren't likely to be riding the streetcar in the first place.

 

I fully admit to not knowing infrastructure and urban planning and all that stuff (I'm just here because I enjoy the discussions), but...wouldn't the streetcar dropping off passengers at the doorstep of GABP be a huge asset?  I know walking a block isn't a big deal but it seems like the mental aspect of being able to jump on the streetcar and take it right to GABP would be beneficial and I could see a lot of people that were against the streetcar support it for just this reason.  In addition, if they took it to Freedom Way it would allow more people to use it for the CRP.  Again, it's not a far walk but the southern portion of CRP could be a decent walk from 2nd street.

 

 

^You have to consider game day logistics, though.  Absolutely NOTHING moves immediately following the end of games in those few blocks due to the volume of people.  Is front door service worth it if you have to sit there for 20 minutes anyway? 

No, actually there are always police there after games to hold back the crowds to let cars through.  No reason why the streetcar can't take advantage of the police directing traffic. 

^ Not true. I was a season ticket holder, and after almost every game main would be closed south of 2nd for at LEAST the 30 min after the game.

 

Also, main between 2nd and 3rd would be completely over run by pedestrians for 15-20 min.

 

2nd street has some police, who keep the light red for about 10-15 min after the game, Then let cars through? And then keep it red for another chunk of to

E

^ But there are cops there directing traffic and controlling the crowd, already.  It wouldn’t take much to make sure the streetcar tracks stayed clear, and after the first couple weeks of the season everyone would be so used to the streetcars being there it wouldn’t matter.

 

I think it would do a whole lot for PR if the streetcar went that extra block south.

 

cops are hardly controlling the crowd- they are mainly stopping the cars.  Literally all of the Main st.  bridge over Ft. washington way is filled with people for 15-20 minutes solid, then the police fight to stop the crowd to let a limited number of cars through.  You can't drive any vehicle across it after a game. 

 

I used to manage crowd control at some major events. There is a point where there are so many people that you simply stop all vehicular traffic- Even if the streetcar only goes to 2nd, it will take a massive crowd control effort, and probably movable barricades, to keep it running completely uninterrupted after a game.  Putting even 6 officers a long just the streetcar line (let alone managing the traffic) wouldn't be enough to stop 20,000 people from walking on the tracks.

 

Just a fact, there will be slight delays for the 20-30 minutes after a game.

Then there's this ... of the whole fleet of streetcars was lined up to take fans away after a game, it could accomodate, oh, I dunno, maybe 1.5% of a sellout crowd.

Then there's this ... of the whole fleet of streetcars was lined up to take fans away after a game, it could accomodate, oh, I dunno, maybe 1.5% of a sellout crowd.

 

Nothing tells a skeptic that transit works like a packed vehicle!  :P

Then there's this ... of the whole fleet of streetcars was lined up to take fans away after a game, it could accomodate, oh, I dunno, maybe 1.5% of a sellout crowd.

 

But even if the streetcar stops at 2nd street, the plan is still to serve the crowds for Reds games, correct? Being able to jump on the streetcar from OTR, Fountain Square, hotels for out of towners, etc and taking it to a Reds or Bengals game has to be part of the plan?

 

^Historically, the streetcar operators sent spotters to Crosley Field to estimate the size of the crowd, and then they would order an appropriate number of streetcars to Crosley Field after a game.

 

A common theme in this thread has been streetcar service to the stadiums, the casino, Findley Market, Music Hall, etc. It's fun to imagine taking the streetcar to an entertainment attraction. However, in most transit systems, the ridership split is something like 60% home to work, 30% home to shopping, and 10% everything else put together. The entertainment component is a small percentage of the total. In the case of stadiums, like John said, the streetcar will have very limited capacity. It will do better on the way to the game because a lot of people get there early, but when the crowd lets out at the end of the game, it will be swamped.

 

 

What about lining the streetcars up along Main Street instead?

 

^Historically, the streetcar operators sent spotters to Crosley Field to estimate the size of the crowd, and then they would order an appropriate number of streetcars to Crosley Field after a game.

 

A common theme in this thread has been streetcar service to the stadiums, the casino, Findley Market, Music Hall, etc. It's fun to imagine taking the streetcar to an entertainment attraction. However, in most transit systems, the ridership split is something like 60% home to work, 30% home to shopping, and 10% everything else put together. The entertainment component is a small percentage of the total. In the case of stadiums, like John said, the streetcar will have very limited capacity. It will do better on the way to the game because a lot of people get there early, but when the crowd lets out at the end of the game, it will be swamped.

 

 

 

Very little capacity is misleading in this context.  It will have the highest capacity per sq. ft. of street area used of any form of transport that'll be down there (aside from pedestrians just walking in a lane)

A New York City subway train, which can transport in excess of 1,000 people, has "very little capacity" when a Yankees or Mets game lets out.  I don't believe that they modify regular service at all for those games. I remember taking the subway after a Yankees game about 15 years ago and literally thousands of people swarmed the station.  With trains arriving maybe once every 15 minutes because it was a Saturday, it probably took an hour for the crowd to thin out.

 

Boston does stage a few of the streetcars on the green line outside Fenway Park, but people aren't in the hurry to evacuate that area in the way that Cincinnatians seem to be obsessed with "beating traffic".  In the bigger cities, people recognize going to a pro game is like the logistics that Cincinnatians gladly associate with going to college football games at OSU and the other big college programs.

 

What's so incredible is the way the exact same people who demand cup holders in the arm rests and close parking for a Bengals game will glow while telling about how they paid some OSU students $30 to park on their lawn on Lane Ave. and how they hung out for hours after the game to wait for traffic to let out.

 

cops are hardly controlling the crowd- they are mainly stopping the cars.  Literally all of the Main st.  bridge over Ft. washington way is filled with people for 15-20 minutes solid, then the police fight to stop the crowd to let a limited number of cars through.  You can't drive any vehicle across it after a game.

 

This hasn't been my experience at all.  I attended probably eight Reds games this season and walked up Main Street after every single one of them.  I remember the cops preventing people from walking on the street between 2nd and 3rd.  The crowds would clear up a bit after that because a decent amount of people would break east and west after getting to 3rd.

 

Boston does stage a few of the streetcars on the green line outside Fenway Park, but people aren't in the hurry to evacuate that area in the way that Cincinnatians seem to be obsessed with "beating traffic".  In the bigger cities, people recognize going to a pro game is like the logistics that Cincinnatians gladly associate with going to college football games at OSU and the other big college programs.

 

I went to three games at old (middle?) Yankee stadium in 2008 when the Reds were playing there.  There were plenty of people leaving early to beat traffic.  The big difference between Cincinnatians and New Yorkers in this regard was that in NYC, just as you described, there was actual traffic to beat.

^ I’ve been to plenty of Mets games and when they let out, they do line up and run the 7 trains at rush hour intervals (which is one 11 car long train every 3 minutes!)  for a short while.  Sure that takes a lot more than 1.5% of the crowd away, but even if the streetcars in Cincy could take 1.5% of a sellout crowd (very few games actually sell out, anyway) up to OTR, that’d be great PR for the bulk of people at Reds games that don’t use the streetcar daily. 

 

I know the streetcar is transit, but being the first train in Cincy it is going to need to serve as an example to the hundreds of thousands that will see it but not need to ride it daily.  The events that make up that 10% of actual ridership make up 95% of the PR campaign the streetcar is going to be putting on.

 

I've never been to a Mets game but there definitely wasn't any special service at the Yankees game I went to. 

 

Also, as of next spring Pittsburgh will have light rail service directly to its football and baseball stadiums.  This one-mile project cost as much as the 200+ mile 3C's grant that Kasich threw away.   

Transit Center?

 

Transit Center?

 

 

You know, that would seem to make sense, but I wonder how well that would actually work.  I couldn't see it getting much use except for big events like games or fireworks.  Since its underground and out of sight people may be reluctant to find it?  Just thinking out loud...

I also wonder how expensive it would be to actually get streetcar tracks and wires down there?  They would have to build some sort of ramp in and out of the transit center from 2nd street I would imagine.  Probably too cost prohibitive.

John, do you know if the transit center was ever considered as part of the streetcar route?

The problem with using the transit center is that you can only enter it at the Broadway and Central Avenue end-portals, so you'd be going way out of the route's path to gain access to it. Plus, you want to keep streetcars on the street where they are visible. They have more of an opportunistic role as opposed to commuter rail where the users know exactly where to go every day. I'm not feeling particularly old, but I doubt I'll ever live to see a train in the transit center. One of these days, I'll recount the story of how it was conceived merely to be a place to store special-event buses -- getting them off the riverfront street grid -- and how scope-creep and egos turned it into a "train station" against Metro's objections. Well, actually, that's the story.

 

 

 

In the case of stadiums, like John said, the streetcar will have very limited capacity.

 

 

Very little capacity is misleading in this context.  It will have the highest capacity per sq. ft. of street area used of any form of transport that'll be down there (aside from pedestrians just walking in a lane)

 

Sorry, didn't mean to mislead. The streetcar would obviously have a tremendous capacity - but relative to the capacity of the gates discharging people, it will carry only a small percentage. Stadiums are designed to discharge people in a hurry in the event of a fire or accident, and there should be enough space outside the stadium to accomodate a sellout crowd. Placing the streetcar too close could actually hinder an evacuation. Even in normal times without an accident, the crowd can be intense.

 

To see how NOT to design a facility, read the story of the Beverly Hills Supper Club fire. The evacuation was hindered not only by a constriction at the exits, but also by lack of space outside the building.

 

I rode the subway in Paris and by own measurement, about 100 people got on the subway train and 100 people got off, all in 20 seconds when the doors were open. They can do this because they have long trains with multiple wide doors, and the seating is designed for fast entrances and exits. The streetcar won't have anywhere near this capacity for loading and unloading unless the trains are similar to the Paris subway trains.

 

On Metro buses it can take several minutes to load or unload about 50 people, especially when they have to pay at the door. For emptying a stadium, a streetcar is not the best vehicle. Still, that doesn't mean that a streetcar won't be useful in a stadium application, especially if the crowd is dispersed by hanging around at other attractions in the neighborhood. Stadium employees could also use it hours before and after games.

 

 

 

Where are the people?

Nice rendering, by the way. I like the very clear background image and the vehicle color scheme. I'm not trying to be critical, but just pointing out that the rendering makes a pretty picture but doesn't represent game-day reality.

^It wasn't supposed to represent game day anything- It's just a rendering that I think Brad created. 

 

^Don't get me wrong. I like it.  :-)

 

 

>The streetcar won't have anywhere near this capacity for loading and unloading unless the trains are similar to the Paris subway trains.

 

The Skoda cars, like the one that visited Cincinnati last year, absolutely do have subway-type bi-parting doors and the streetcars meet the curb precisely.  This is one of the ways in which the modern streetcars have a huge advantage over buses and traditional streetcars. 

 

WTF IS THIS!?!?!?!

 

LOL

some guy thought he was opening a HRC in Clifton back in the 90s (?) but it was a swindle.