^ They know more than they are saying.

 

Good to hear John. Excellent job in the interview also!

The new eastside extension of the Portland Streetcar is now visible on Google Earth (but does not appear on Streetview).  It's a huge amount of new track, with what appears to be a second car barn at the end of the line.  I'm not sure how many new streetcars they're buying or how the routes are going to be run.  For example, the eastside streetcars might turn around in downtown Portland before heading to the south waterfront. 

Also, it's interesting to see that there are no crossovers in the eastside trackwork for 3 route miles. 

^ Six vehicles to start.

 

Soon a new rail-only bridge will be constructed between the South Waterfront on the west side of the Willamette and the Oregon Museum of Science and Industry on the east, so Portland will have a loop connecting both waterfronts. They are likening this to Vienna's "Ringstrasse."

^ If you can, John, will you please post any available visuals on this particular development?  Here in the Queen City, we need to be stimulated, stirred, and woken up by witnessing a major streetcar undertaking such as this--I hope we all eat our guts out with lust and envy!  :whip:

Here you go....

 

http://www.portlandstreetcar.org/node/11

 

http://www.portlandstreetcar.org/pdf/loop_map_201102_lores.pdf

Here you go....

 

http://www.portlandstreetcar.org/node/11

 

http://www.portlandstreetcar.org/pdf/loop_map_201102_lores.pdf

 

There's also a photo tour of the construction on the home page. Look under the scrolling photo and message:

 

construction...sponsors...updates...PHOTOS

Here you go....

 

http://www.portlandstreetcar.org/node/11

 

http://www.portlandstreetcar.org/pdf/loop_map_201102_lores.pdf

 

Great map... Thanks for sharing. Note that the "future" light rail alignment shown on 5th and 6th Avenues has been built as far south as the University District and is now in service.

Here is a link to the construction photos:

http://www.flickr.com//photos/portlandstreetcar/sets/72157624284280880/show

 

 

Also, if you look at the new satellite images of Portland, it looks like the new light rail/streetcar bridge is under construction near the South Waterfront.  This will be the first section where Max light rail trains and streetcars operate on the same tracks, although for less than a mile. 

Here's info about the new bridge, which is already under construction as part of the Milwaukie MAX light rail project:

http://trimet.org/pm/construction/bridge.htm

 

OMG!  An old adage says "beware of what you ask for..."  Well, I should have learned that one before ever asking to view Portland's new streetcar plans & construction--now I am sick!  (In all seriousness, though, thanks to everyone for the plethora of information that followed.  Especially helpful were the two dozen or so street construction photos supplied be jmecklenborg--truly "an education" in themselves!)  :-(

This went from satisfying subocincy's quick request to wayyyy off topic.

Here's info about the new bridge, which is already under construction as part of the Milwaukie MAX light rail project:

http://trimet.org/pm/construction/bridge.htm

 

 

Just to put the size of those buildings in perspective

 

700 WLW's Doc Thompson busied himself this morning suggesting that Cincinnati should build escalators instead of streetcars (he never misses a chance to make fun of poor people):

http://www.700wlw.com/pages/docThompson.html?article=9547554

 

 

And another typical post (although of late he's taken a liking to the term "bloody streetcar") on The Enquirer's website by Mark Miller:

 

COAST

City Hall doesn't give give a rip about cops or firefighters; they think a toy trolley will make everything peachy. They've browned out over 10% of the Fire Dept. for months on end. Most of the brownouts happen in the gritty urban core neighborhoods. Public safety is the last thing on their minds. Enjoy your bloody streetcar.

 

Escalators could be implemented near old incline locations. Ohio Avenue steps could be replaced by escalators. Escalators at 8th & State in Lower Price Hill could work.

 

Mt. Adams would be the best place, but the highways and Parkways surrounding it kind of make that problematic. If Eastern Corridor rail happens, escalators from Mt. Adams to a Boathouse stop would make a lot of sense. This is probably to most likely one to happen. The stairs at the end of Celestial Street could be converted to escalators.

 

Barcelona has escalators on steep streets leading up to Park Guell.

700 WLW's Doc Thompson busied himself this morning suggesting that Cincinnati should build escalators instead of streetcars (he never misses a chance to make fun of poor people):

http://www.700wlw.com/pages/docThompson.html?article=9547554

Didn't/can't/won't listen to the show, was he referencing the escalators in Medellin, Columbia?

http://news.blogs.cnn.com/2011/12/27/giant-escalators-help-poor-in-medellin-colombia/

I don't think we have quite the same situation here in Cincinnati, but yeah, making fun of poor people is a blast.

^^Someone has to maintain those escalators. I'm not saying that the steps aren't important to Cincinnati--and they could be even more important--but when was the last time you ran into someone on the steps? I think it's a terrible idea, unless you can convince me that certain city steps just have so much traffic that it would benefit from an escalator.

 

And concerning the COAST tweet about brownouts in urban core neighborhoods, they've never vouched for the poor before. So, why now? The streetcar is just a glorified bus, right?

And Thompson said the big downside of these escalators was that "people were going to get fat" (as though cars don't).  And this coming from a guy who continuously advertises "Medifast", a diet plan:

 

http://www.medifast1.com/index.jsp?campaign=brand3357msn

 

 

The thing I could see happening with those escalators is thugs (or corrupt police positioned to keep said thugs away) collecting "tolls" to ride them.  Also, escalators are extremely expensive to operate and maintain.  A huge advantage of streetcars and surface light rail is that their stations don't require elevators or escalators.  The Washington Metro has 588 escalators system-wide, and this article states that at times more than 100 are out of service:

 

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/07/02/us/02escalators.html

 

 

^^Someone has to maintain those escalators. I'm not saying that the steps aren't important to Cincinnati--and they could be even more important--but when was the last time you ran into someone on the steps? I think it's a terrible idea, unless you can convince me that certain city steps just have so much traffic that it would benefit from an escalator.

 

Yeah, they would need corresponding development, or a critical mass of density + pedestrian traffic.

 

Connecting Mt. Adams to a new train station would be reasonable, which is why I highlighted that as most likely.

This went from satisfying subocincy's quick request to wayyyy off topic.

 

^This went from talking about streetcars to wayyyy off topic...

A huge advantage of streetcars and surface light rail is that their stations don't require elevators or escalators.  The Washington Metro has 588 escalators system-wide, and this article states that at times more than 100 are out of service:

 

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/07/02/us/02escalators.html

 

As a former daily Metro rider I can vouch for this anecdotally. On most trips you are going to see a broken escalator. You get used to it. It probably helps D.C. residents be among the slimmest in the country. People don't mind the broken escalators since they see so many attractive individuals during their trips instead of all the Jabbas you see in unwalkable environments.

All the meta discussion about how off-topic this thread has supposedly gotten is also off-topic. Back to the streetcar, please.

All the meta discussion about how off-topic this thread has supposedly gotten is also off-topic. Back to the streetcar, please.

 

Please post all of those comments in the Urban Escalators thread.

'COAST asks for halt to city's plan to build streetcar over sewer lines'

 

Leaders of the Coalition Opposed to Additional Spending and Taxes (COAST) are asking Cincinnati’s city solicitor to seek a halt to a city plan to build a streetcar over existing sewer lines.

 

The letter to City Solicitor John Curp calls the approach “an impermissible interference upon the rights of the county commissioners, for the rights attendant to their ownership of the sewer lines to operate, access, maintain, repair and repair those sewer lines to keep them operational.”

 

It's signed by Chris Finney, an attorney and co-founder of COAST, on behalf of COAST co-founder Thomas Brinkman and treasurer Mark Miller.

 

More below:

http://www.bizjournals.com/cincinnati/news/2011/12/29/coast-asks-for-halt-to-citys-plan-to.html

>It probably helps D.C. residents be among the slimmest in the country.

 

Even when they are working, people often climb the equivalent of a floor or two of steps while riding.  Washington is outdone by New York though, where I'm sure some climb more than 10 floors a day on the subway if they commute and take another trip.  A lack of ADA compliance on the subway is a big reason why New York must run a completely redundant system of buses.  Lost in the talk radio campaign against the streetcar is that we are buidling a system that is not just ADA compliant but something where that element is seamless. 

>It probably helps D.C. residents be among the slimmest in the country.

 

Even when they are working, people often climb the equivalent of a floor or two of steps while riding.  Washington is outdone by New York though, where I'm sure some climb more than 10 floors a day on the subway if they commute and take another trip.  A lack of ADA compliance on the subway is a big reason why New York must run a completely redundant system of buses.  Lost in the talk radio campaign against the streetcar is that we are buidling a system that is not just ADA compliant but something where that element is seamless. 

 

I was speaking to a streetcar skeptic relative and got to talking about how the streetcars are so accessible for handicapped riders. She hadn't realized the benefit, and it seemed to inch her mindset a bit toward favoring the streetcar. Seems like a part of the message that's getting lost/should be put out there more prominently, in terms of being better than buses for the elderly and disabled. Should resonate with a segment of skeptics, particularly those who are roughly in the NAACP/Green Party opposition camp.

'COAST asks for halt to city's plan to build streetcar over sewer lines'

 

Leaders of the Coalition Opposed to Additional Spending and Taxes (COAST) are asking Cincinnatis city solicitor to seek a halt to a city plan to build a streetcar over existing sewer lines.

 

The letter to City Solicitor John Curp calls the approach an impermissible interference upon the rights of the county commissioners, for the rights attendant to their ownership of the sewer lines to operate, access, maintain, repair and repair those sewer lines to keep them operational.

 

It's signed by Chris Finney, an attorney and co-founder of COAST, on behalf of COAST co-founder Thomas Brinkman and treasurer Mark Miller.

 

More below:

http://www.bizjournals.com/cincinnati/news/2011/12/29/coast-asks-for-halt-to-citys-plan-to.html

 

Unbelievable.  Well, I guess its not really.  We have all learned that these morons will stop at nothing to get in the way of progress.  Oh well, I don't think they stand any sort of chance here.  The city has every right to build whatever they want on the streets that they own.  The MSD had a chance to move those lines with the city footing part of the bill and our moron commisioners said no for political reasons.  So, this is the result.

 

John, do you think this action by Finney will stand any chance of causing problems?  Again, the longer the city waits to start construction, the more stupid stuff like this will come up.

'COAST asks for halt to city's plan to build streetcar over sewer lines'

 

Leaders of the Coalition Opposed to Additional Spending and Taxes (COAST) are asking Cincinnati’s city solicitor to seek a halt to a city plan to build a streetcar over existing sewer lines.

 

The letter to City Solicitor John Curp calls the approach “an impermissible interference upon the rights of the county commissioners, for the rights attendant to their ownership of the sewer lines to operate, access, maintain, repair and repair those sewer lines to keep them operational.”

 

It's signed by Chris Finney, an attorney and co-founder of COAST, on behalf of COAST co-founder Thomas Brinkman and treasurer Mark Miller.

 

More below:

http://www.bizjournals.com/cincinnati/news/2011/12/29/coast-asks-for-halt-to-citys-plan-to.html

 

This is not shocking at all. COAST will continue to kick and scream like a child who didn't get his way. They will sue the city over and over until the day the streetcar is operational -- and probably after that. They will not go away until people start ignoring them (including the Enquirer, WLW, and local TV stations that continue to give them an unmoderated platform to broadcast their opinion).

COAST made a facebook page so they can return to trolling news articles like this one.

 

Except when you visit their page, the only people who post on their wall are making fun of them.

 

It looks like COAST has two pages on Facebook, a place page that anyone can post on, and a group that's restricted to only COAST members.  The place page has mostly anti-COAST comments.

'COAST asks for halt to city's plan to build streetcar over sewer lines'

 

Leaders of the Coalition Opposed to Additional Spending and Taxes (COAST) are asking Cincinnatis city solicitor to seek a halt to a city plan to build a streetcar over existing sewer lines.

 

The letter to City Solicitor John Curp calls the approach an impermissible interference upon the rights of the county commissioners, for the rights attendant to their ownership of the sewer lines to operate, access, maintain, repair and repair those sewer lines to keep them operational.

 

It's signed by Chris Finney, an attorney and co-founder of COAST, on behalf of COAST co-founder Thomas Brinkman and treasurer Mark Miller.

 

More below:

http://www.bizjournals.com/cincinnati/news/2011/12/29/coast-asks-for-halt-to-citys-plan-to.html

 

Unbelievable.  Well, I guess its not really.  We have all learned that these morons will stop at nothing to get in the way of progress.  Oh well, I don't think they stand any sort of chance here.  The city has every right to build whatever they want on the streets that they own.  The MSD had a chance to move those lines with the city footing part of the bill and our moron commisioners said no for political reasons.  So, this is the result.

 

John, do you think this action by Finney will stand any chance of causing problems?  Again, the longer the city waits to start construction, the more stupid stuff like this will come up.

 

This is fundamentally a property rights issue. Cincinnati owns its streets, and it can do what it wants with them.

 

 

 

This is fundamentally a property rights issue. Cincinnati owns its streets, and it can do what it wants with them.

 

Not quite. Use of public streets in Ohio is governed by Ohio state law. Cincinnati can only do what it wants with her streets as long as it is permitted under the Ohio Revised Code.

 

In Ohio, streetcars are considered utilities and have the same legal status as other utilities. It is also explicitly stated that utilities must be treated equally. One utility cannot block another one as long as they are physically compatible.

 

 

This is fundamentally a property rights issue. Cincinnati owns its streets, and it can do what it wants with them.

 

Not quite. Use of public streets in Ohio is governed by Ohio state law. Cincinnati can only do what it wants with her streets as long as it is permitted under the Ohio Revised Code.

 

In Ohio, streetcars are considered utilities and have the same legal status as other utilities. It is also explicitly stated that utilities must be treated equally. One utility cannot block another one as long as they are physically compatible.

So, to be clear, your contention is that the streetcar will lose if this goes to court?

 

Frankly, if I were the city I'd be looking at the possibility that the ban on county spending "on the streetcar" is either illegal or not applicable because the sewers need to be moved anyway. The money is to be spent on the sewers, after all, not the streetcar.

I think that's what John is saying, that the sewers cannot block the streetcar. Which is ironic because there are still streetcar tracks all over the city -- they're just a few inches below what Jerry Wray's former employer calls "flexible pavement." ;-)

 

The Metropolitan Sewer District is funded by Hamilton County and operated by the City of Cincinnati. MSD employees are city employees. (This arrangement which has been in place since 1968  has not worked particularly well, but that's another story.) So, if MSD sued the city in court, the city would be suing itself. Hopefully, the good people at the city will work out a solution before going to court and being told by a judge to work it out and stop wasting his time.

 

If the same thing happened between the streetcar and a Duke utility, and the City tried to force Duke to move it's utility without any compensation and it went to court, the court would probably favor Duke. Traditionally, use of the public right-of-way by utilities is allocated on a first come, first served basis.

 

I hope that the sewer issue will be worked out. My point is simply that the city can't just force everyone else out of the right-of-way just because it's the city. The city doesn't own the public right-of-way in the same way that a homeowner owns a house. Utilities have a certain legal right to occupy the public right-of-way under state law. In Ohio, a streetcar is considered a utility and has the same legal standing as any other utility, regardless of  whether the operator of that utility is also the city.

 

This works in both directions. MSD cannot legally block the streetcar, and the streetcar cannot legally force out the sewer, as long as they are compatible. If there is a conflict, MSD has the advantage because the sewer was there first.

 

Well, there IS a conflict, because the proposed tracks will phsically intersect with the sewer manholes. The traditional burden of conflict resolution is on the streetcar, not MSD.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

'COAST asks for halt to city's plan to build streetcar over sewer lines'

 

Leaders of the Coalition Opposed to Additional Spending and Taxes (COAST) are asking Cincinnati’s city solicitor to seek a halt to a city plan to build a streetcar over existing sewer lines.

 

The letter to City Solicitor John Curp calls the approach “an impermissible interference upon the rights of the county commissioners, for the rights attendant to their ownership of the sewer lines to operate, access, maintain, repair and repair those sewer lines to keep them operational.”

 

It's signed by Chris Finney, an attorney and co-founder of COAST, on behalf of COAST co-founder Thomas Brinkman and treasurer Mark Miller.

 

More below:

http://www.bizjournals.com/cincinnati/news/2011/12/29/coast-asks-for-halt-to-citys-plan-to.html

 

 

completely predictable. When the City Solicitor refuses to sue Finney will file a Taxpayer Lawsuit himself, as he has done numerous times. He just filed one last week against the metropolitan Housing Authority:

 

http://www.courtclerk.org/case_summary.asp?casenumber=C 1100852

 

COAST will file suit after suit seeking to stop or delay the project for as long as possible.

'COAST asks for halt to city's plan to build streetcar over sewer lines'

 

Leaders of the Coalition Opposed to Additional Spending and Taxes (COAST) are asking Cincinnati’s city solicitor to seek a halt to a city plan to build a streetcar over existing sewer lines.

 

The letter to City Solicitor John Curp calls the approach “an impermissible interference upon the rights of the county commissioners, for the rights attendant to their ownership of the sewer lines to operate, access, maintain, repair and repair those sewer lines to keep them operational.”

 

It's signed by Chris Finney, an attorney and co-founder of COAST, on behalf of COAST co-founder Thomas Brinkman and treasurer Mark Miller.

 

More below:

http://www.bizjournals.com/cincinnati/news/2011/12/29/coast-asks-for-halt-to-citys-plan-to.html

 

 

completely predictable. When the City Solicitor refuses to sue Finney will file a Taxpayer Lawsuit himself, as he has done numerous times. He just filed one last week against the metropolitan Housing Authority:

 

http://www.courtclerk.org/case_summary.asp?casenumber=C 1100852

 

COAST will file suit after suit seeking to stop or delay the project for as long as possible.

 

 

It's interesting to note that the Enquirer, who stoked the anti-streetcar meme for so many years, has now virtually dropped the issue.

 

 

 

This is fundamentally a property rights issue. Cincinnati owns its streets, and it can do what it wants with them.

 

Not quite. Use of public streets in Ohio is governed by Ohio state law. Cincinnati can only do what it wants with her streets as long as it is permitted under the Ohio Revised Code.

 

In Ohio, streetcars are considered utilities and have the same legal status as other utilities. It is also explicitly stated that utilities must be treated equally. One utility cannot block another one as long as they are physically compatible.

 

 

I know that you work for MSD, but please stop throwing out legal opinions as though you were an attorney.

^It doesn't take an attorney to read the Ohio Revised Code. Reading the laws BEFORE going to court can save a lot of time.

 

 

^It doesn't take an attorney to read the Ohio Revised Code. Reading the laws BEFORE going to court can save a lot of time.

 

There is a difference between reading the law and comprehending the law. There are volumes of case law that interpret ORC, and unless you know (or can find, read and understand) that case law you don't know jack squat. And that opinion comes courtesy of an actual attorney; the one who is sitting right next to me and who is a litigation partner at one of the region's largest law firms, and is also my spouse.

 

You are offering up your uninformed and uneducated opinion as fact, which it is not. Quite simply you do not know what you are talking about, so until you actually have an educated and informed opinion to offer regarding the law kindly stick in a sock in it.

Allright, just for fun, and before someone says "They do it in Portland," I took the time to look up the state laws pertaining to streetcars in Oregon. I didn't find anything establishing rights between different utilities, though in Oregon streetcars are NOT considered utilities as they are in Ohio. But guess what else I found?

 

Excerpts from Chapter 309 - Mass Transportation: (bold is mine.)

 

"...Net proceeds from the operation of the state lottery for the support of the Westside corridor light rail project, as provided in ORS 391.130, is an appropriate use of state lottery funds..." Wow! Imagine that! The lottery as a source of funding for transit!

 

"There is established in the State Treasury, separate and distinct from the General Fund, the Elderly and Disabled Special Transportation Fund. All moneys in the Elderly and Disabled Special Transportation Fund are appropriated continuously to the Department of Transportation for payment of the department’s administrative costs of the program and payment to mass transit districts..." More funding for ADA compliance for tansit!

 

"The States of Oregon and Washington establish by way of this interstate compact an independent, separate regional authority, which is an instrumentality of both of the signatory parties hereto, known as Columbia River Light Rail Transit Authority..." Two states cooperating to build transit across the river! It took an interstate compact, which needs approval by Congress.

 

"The Authority has the power too...acquire, maintain, control, and convey easements, licenses, and other limited property rights for the purpose of constructing the South North light rail transit line." Build it in a private right-of way to avoid utilities.

 

"The State Treasurer is authorized to issue lottery bonds pursuant to ORS 286A.560 to 286A.585, in an amount not to exceed net proceeds of $1,600,000..." Funding from the state lottery!

 

"The property of the Oregon Mass Transportation Financing Authority shall be exempt from all taxation in the State of Oregon." It's not fair that railways pay property taxes but highways don't. Not in the state of Oregon!

 

So, there is a MAJOR difference between Cincinnati and Portland, other than things already mentioned on this forum: Portland's state of Oregon supports transit, directly, with actual funding and property tax policy!

 

I guess we already knew that, but it's neat to see it written into state law. I didn't know transit in Portland is supported by the lottery, that Oregon specifically provides for transit as ADA compliance, and that transit has a state property tax advantage.

 

Paper infrastructure (laws, policies, etc.) is just as important, and sometimes lasts just as long or longer, as physical infrastructure. Ohio's paper infrastructure relating to streetcars dates back to the historic streetcars. The State of Ohio allows them, but does not provide for them. The State of Oregon specifically favors transit, and backs it up with funding.

 

Speaking of Oregon, Railfan and Railroad magazine has an article about Portland, with a good description of the various lines from a user's point of view.

 

I have learned so much from this board.  :-)

Allright, just for fun, and before someone says "They do it in Portland," I took the time to look up the state laws pertaining to streetcars in Oregon. I didn't find anything establishing rights between different utilities, though in Oregon streetcars are NOT considered utilities as they are in Ohio. But guess what else I found?

 

Excerpts from Chapter 309 - Mass Transportation: (bold is mine.)

 

"...Net proceeds from the operation of the state lottery for the support of the Westside corridor light rail project, as provided in ORS 391.130, is an appropriate use of state lottery funds..." Wow! Imagine that! The lottery as a source of funding for transit!

 

"There is established in the State Treasury, separate and distinct from the General Fund, the Elderly and Disabled Special Transportation Fund. All moneys in the Elderly and Disabled Special Transportation Fund are appropriated continuously to the Department of Transportation for payment of the department’s administrative costs of the program and payment to mass transit districts..." More funding for ADA compliance for tansit!

 

"The States of Oregon and Washington establish by way of this interstate compact an independent, separate regional authority, which is an instrumentality of both of the signatory parties hereto, known as Columbia River Light Rail Transit Authority..." Two states cooperating to build transit across the river! It took an interstate compact, which needs approval by Congress.

 

"The Authority has the power too...acquire, maintain, control, and convey easements, licenses, and other limited property rights for the purpose of constructing the South North light rail transit line." Build it in a private right-of way to avoid utilities.

 

"The State Treasurer is authorized to issue lottery bonds pursuant to ORS 286A.560 to 286A.585, in an amount not to exceed net proceeds of $1,600,000..." Funding from the state lottery!

 

"The property of the Oregon Mass Transportation Financing Authority shall be exempt from all taxation in the State of Oregon." It's not fair that railroads pay property taxes but highways don't. Not in the state of Oregon!

 

So, there is a MAJOR difference between Cincinnati and Portland, other than things already mentioned on this forum: Portland's state of Oregon supports transit, directly, with actual funding and property tax policy!

 

I guess we already knew that, but it's neat to see it written into state law. I didn't know transit in Portland is supported by the lottery, that Oregon specifically provides for transit as ADA compliance, and that transit has a state property tax advantage.

 

Paper infrastructure (laws, policies, etc.) is just as important, and sometimes lasts just as long or longer, as physical infrastructure. Ohio's paper infrastructure relating to streetcars dates back to the historic streetcars. The State of Ohio allows them, but does not provide for them. The State of Oregon specifically favors transit, and backs it up with funding.

 

Speaking of Oregon, Railfan and Railroad magazine has an article about Portland, with a good description of the various lines from a user's point of view.

 

I have learned so much from this board.  :-)

 

So, in other words, you were desperately googling for actual legal opinions to backup your uninformed and uneducated pseudo-legal speculations (which you couldn't find) and instead found more ways to troll with more "but Cincinnati isn't Portland!!" BS.

^It doesn't take an attorney to read the Ohio Revised Code. Reading the laws BEFORE going to court can save a lot of time.

 

There is a difference between reading the law and comprehending the law. There are volumes of case law that interpret ORC, and unless you know (or can find, read and understand) that case law you don't know jack squat. And that opinion comes courtesy of an actual attorney; the one who is sitting right next to me and who is a litigation partner at one of the region's largest law firms, and is also my spouse.

 

You are offering up your uninformed and uneducated opinion as fact, which it is not. Quite simply you do not know what you are talking about, so until you actually have an educated and informed opinion to offer regarding the law kindly stick in a sock in it.

 

With all due respect, instead of writing two paragraphs full of invective and harassment, why not actually add something to the discussion by citing some facts and/or relevant case law?  Your post does nothing to further the debate.

 

I have no idea if John Schneider knows what he's talking about in this particular instance, but he is recognized as a leader on the Cincinnati Streetcar issue, and as such I'm inclined to believe he's done his homework.  His arguments appear solid.  All you've done here is tell us your spouse is an attorney, a claim none of us can confirm or refute.  Perhaps with facts on display some here would be inclined to believe you in the same way others are inclined to believe John.

 

In other words, keep it highbrow, people.

The new eastside extension of the Portland Streetcar is now visible on Google Earth (but does not appear on Streetview).  It's a huge amount of new track, with what appears to be a second car barn at the end of the line.  I'm not sure how many new streetcars they're buying or how the routes are going to be run.  For example, the eastside streetcars might turn around in downtown Portland before heading to the south waterfront. 

Also, it's interesting to see that there are no crossovers in the eastside trackwork for 3 route miles. 

 

I just downloaded Google Earth so I could see what Portland has... :-o OMG  :-o...I have to go there! When is the next trip???

 

OK all you moderators out there...I'm back...on topic...

"but Cincinnati isn't Portland!!"

 

Meanwhile, at present Seattle has no less than three tunnel boring machines digging its 3-mile billion+ light rail subway extension:

http://projects.soundtransit.org/Projects-Home/University-Link/University-Link---Project-Update.xml

 

And...in 2013 a huge 60ft-diameter tunnel boring machine will be arriving shortly to dig a 2-mile, $2 billion tunnel under downtown:

http://www.wsdot.wa.gov/Projects/SR99/Tunnel

 

 

Meanwhile, in Cincinnati we've got Chris Monzel playing politics over $3 million in sewer work.

 

^It doesn't take an attorney to read the Ohio Revised Code. Reading the laws BEFORE going to court can save a lot of time.

 

There is a difference between reading the law and comprehending the law. There are volumes of case law that interpret ORC, and unless you know (or can find, read and understand) that case law you don't know jack squat. And that opinion comes courtesy of an actual attorney; the one who is sitting right next to me and who is a litigation partner at one of the region's largest law firms, and is also my spouse.

 

You are offering up your uninformed and uneducated opinion as fact, which it is not. Quite simply you do not know what you are talking about, so until you actually have an educated and informed opinion to offer regarding the law kindly stick in a sock in it.

 

With all due respect, instead of writing two paragraphs full of invective and harassment, why not actually add something to the discussion by citing some facts and/or relevant case law?  Your post does nothing to further the debate.

 

I have no idea if John Schneider knows what he's talking about in this particular instance, but he is recognized as a leader on the Cincinnati Streetcar issue, and as such I'm inclined to believe he's done his homework.  His arguments appear solid.  All you've done here is tell us your spouse is an attorney, a claim none of us can confirm or refute.  Perhaps with facts on display some here would be inclined to believe you in the same way others are inclined to believe John.

 

In other words, keep it highbrow, people.

 

 

John Schneider is not spewing what he is trying to pass off as informed legal opinions. That's a major difference. So stop playing "highbrow concern troll", people.

Play nice, everybody. You're all beautiful.

John Schneider is not spewing what he is trying to pass off as informed legal opinions. That's a major difference. So stop playing "highbrow concern troll", people.

 

In your last three posts, you have called one member "uneducated" and "uninformed" and told him he doesn't "know jack squat" and to "put a sock in it," as well as calling two other members "trolls."

 

Name-calling is not a hallmark of effective discourse and debate.  If you make your arguments in terms of facts, we will listen to you, I promise.

 

 

Play nice, everybody. You're all beautiful.

 

My point exactly.  I like hearing debate, not name-calling.

John Schneider is not spewing what he is trying to pass off as informed legal opinions. That's a major difference. So stop playing "highbrow concern troll", people.

 

In your last three posts, you have called one member "uneducated" and "uninformed" and told him he doesn't "know jack squat" ....

 

Name-calling is not a hallmark of effective discourse and debate.  If you make your arguments in terms of facts, we will listen to you, I promise.

 

No, I said that the member was offering uneducated and uninformed opinions on legal matters, which he was trying to pass off as matters of established facts. And I asked his to stop doing so in a direct manner. Deal.

"But Cincinnati isn't Portland!"

 

The similarities in metro population, density, etc. are striking. I like the graph of the 20 tallest buildings.

 

Still, there are some important differences:

1. Portland has a high foreign immigration rate and growing population while Cincinnati does not.

2. Portland has a state government that favors cities including transit while Cincinnati does not.

3. Portland has had transit for 25 years now, and Cincinnati has not. This is something that Cincinnati cannot change, because it is not possible to turn back the clock and build a streetcar in 1985.

 

Portland's streetcar opened in 2001, having already had transit in operation for 15 years! Imagine if Cincinnati today had light rail from, say, Norwood to Downtown Cincinnati and Covington, with a branch to Westwood, and THEN tried to build a streetcar from downtown to Over-the-Rhine! We would then have a ridership base with lots of riders already downtown, contractors with experience with rail, some kind of experience with funding and operation, and all of that.

 

(Rail from Norwood to downtown Cincinnati and Covington with a branch to Westwood was proposed in 1976.)

 

I've been to Portland. I went there on business in 1999. I wanted to see the light rail, but never got a chance. We drove straight from the airport to a restaurant, which happened to be located in the middle of a sea of parking lots. Disappointing...

 

But no, I am not meaning to knock Cincinnati. If Portland has streetcars, I am happy for them, and I want to know how they did it. I want to know why Portland has streetcars and Cincinnati does not, so that I might be able to do something about it.

 

It's interesting that their light rail came first. I'm looking at a system map, photos, and stats right now and it looks like a significant portion of the total system is open right-of-way (not in a street) and diesel-powered (no overhead wire.) There are also portions that are electric and run in a street, obviously.

 

Seattle, on the other hand, isn't even in the same league. It's like comparing Cincinnati to Chicago. Seattle can afford a $2 billion project.

 

 

 

 

 

"But Cincinnati isn't Portland!"

 

The similarities in metro population, density, etc. are striking. I like the graph of the 20 tallest buildings.

 

Still, there are some important differences:

1. Portland has a high foreign immigration rate and growing population while Cincinnati does not.

2. Portland has a state government that favors cities including transit while Cincinnati does not.

3. Portland has had transit for 25 years now, and Cincinnati has not. This is something that Cincinnati cannot change, because it is not possible to turn back the clock and build a streetcar in 1985.

 

Portland's streetcar opened in 2001, having already had transit in operation for 15 years! Imagine if Cincinnati today had light rail from, say, Norwood to Downtown Cincinnati and Covington, with a branch to Westwood, and THEN tried to build a streetcar from downtown to Over-the-Rhine! We would then have a ridership base with lots of riders already downtown, contractors with experience with rail, some kind of experience with funding and operation, and all of that.

 

(Rail from Norwood to downtown Cincinnati and Covington with a branch to Westwood was proposed in 1976.)

 

I've been to Portland. I went there on business in 1999. I wanted to see the light rail, but never got a chance. We drove straight from the airport to a restaurant, which happened to be located in the middle of a sea of parking lots. Disappointing...

 

But no, I am not meaning to knock Cincinnati. If Portland has streetcars, I am happy for them, and I want to know how they did it. I want to know why Portland has streetcars and Cincinnati does not, so that I might be able to do something about it.

 

It's interesting that their light rail came first. I'm looking at a system map, photos, and stats right now and it looks like a significant portion of the total system is open right-of-way (not in a street) and diesel-powered (no overhead wire.) There are also portions that are electric and run in a street, obviously.

 

Seattle, on the other hand, isn't even in the same league. It's like comparing Cincinnati to Chicago. Seattle can afford a $2 billion project.

 

Eeyore is concern trolling. Again.