For most public infrastructure projects, no one pays attention until the bulldozers show up. The stadiums were an exception.

 

A couple of people responded to my post. Ok, maybe the articulated buses weren't the best example, but they were initiated with hardly any media coverage, and no controversy.

 

Sherman, I have been to at least 50 public meetings, many for much larger projects, and I agree that usually no more than 30 show up. The streetcar is definitely an anomaly.

The anti-streetcar crowd never stops, yet our side always seems to drop the ball between elections. I haven't heard a peep out of CFP via email, on their website, twitter or facebook. The worst part is that EVERY local media outlet will be at TheGrandstanders® sideshow tomorrow, and WLW, The Enquirer and the TV stations will pimp the story endlessly.

Sounds like they may know something we don't and don't want to tip their hand or sound desperate. Regardless, I plan on taking a late lunch and showing up for the meeting tomorrow in support of the project.

Sounds like they may know something we don't and don't want to tip their hand or sound desperate. Regardless, I plan on taking a late lunch and showing up for the meeting tomorrow in support of the project.

 

I hope so! I'm working with a new client who has been in town all week, and if I can get them off to the airport in time I'm going to be there too. I hope to see some of you there!!

I haven't heard a peep out of CFP via email

 

Email just went out.

Make sure everyone gets their video cameras ready.

 

Smitherman is going to be in rare form.  He's going to put his SCPA drama classes to good use tomorrow

 

Email just went out.

 

I thought I was on C4P's e-mail list? Maybe my anti-spam is working too well.......

 

Email just went out.

 

I thought I was on C4P's e-mail list? Maybe my anti-spam is working too well.......

 

I actually just found their email sitting in my spam folder.

^Jeez.  Nothing like waiting until the last minute.  People have jobs and might need more notice than what CFP is giving.

Next Cincinnati streetcar stop: Duke Energy deal

City of Cincinnati will pay $10 million to shift underground sewer, water lines, other utilities

Business Courier by Lucy May and Dan Monk, Courier senior staff reporters

Date: Friday, January 27, 2012, 6:00am EST

 

 

City officials have nearly completed negotiations to move sewer and utility lines that sit in the path of the recently expanded $110 million Cincinnati streetcar project.

 

http://www.bizjournals.com/cincinnati/print-edition/2012/01/27/next-cincinnati-streetcar-stop-duke.html

Make sure everyone gets their video cameras ready.

 

Preferably a camera with a nice long lens. Pointed at Smitherman and clicking away the entire time. Because Chris, we can in fact take your picture.  :evil:

I believe it's scheduled for CitiCable but more camera angles will make for better YouTube.

Slitherman is currently using CitiCable on his own cable show to promote his lack of understanding of the pension situation.

Is that ethical?

Next Cincinnati streetcar stop: Duke Energy deal

City of Cincinnati will pay $10 million to shift underground sewer, water lines, other utilities

Business Courier by Lucy May and Dan Monk, Courier senior staff reporters

Date: Friday, January 27, 2012, 6:00am EST

 

 

City officials have nearly completed negotiations to move sewer and utility lines that sit in the path of the recently expanded $110 million Cincinnati streetcar project.

 

http://www.bizjournals.com/cincinnati/print-edition/2012/01/27/next-cincinnati-streetcar-stop-duke.html

 

Without getting into the details, I know that all of this is quickly getting worked out. I expect a groundbreaking very soon -- in February for sure.

^Great news.  Thanks, John.

Can anyone cut and paste the full text of the business courier article?  See you at City Hall at 2 pm

 

http://www.bizjournals.com/cincinnati/print-edition/2012/01/27/next-cincinnati-streetcar-stop-duke.html

Can anyone cut and paste the full text of the business courier article?  See you at City Hall at 2 pm

 

http://www.bizjournals.com/cincinnati/print-edition/2012/01/27/next-cincinnati-streetcar-stop-duke.html

 

I'll just bring the print edition to City Hall.

Special Session Cancelled: http://t.co/xRRjUylJ

 

I wonder what prompted the cancellation...

From the Mayor's office:

 

"Smitherman and Winburn cancelled the special session in light of the accident at the Casino construction site."

 

 

Special Session Cancelled: http://t.co/xRRjUylJ

 

I wonder what prompted the cancellation...

Casino Collapse.

Casino Collapse.

 

Anti-streetcar campaign collapse, more likely. I suspect the city's deal with Duke did more to harm Slitherman's timing than anything. Do we really believe a construction accident would discourage these foamers from making another poisonous political statement?

So has Mark Miller blamed the collapse on fire brownouts caused by the streetcar yet?

Clearly, they realized that our myopic new media can only focus on one issue at a time.  Without the coverage, this whole publicity stunt would go largely ignored.  Can't have that.

^Exactly

Clearly, they realized that our myopic new media can only focus on one issue at a time.  Without the coverage, this whole publicity stunt would go largely ignored.  Can't have that.

 

Bingo. Their shameless media stunt only works if the media is at City Hall, and not being run over by tour buses at the scene of a construction accident at the casino site.

When the Duke deal is announced publicly, what reasoning will they have for the meeting then?

 

This entire meeting revolved around their hope that Duke and the city would never come to an agreement or that the cost would be 4 times the amount of whats stated

 

Anyone else notice Smitherman keeps inflating the cost of phase 1?  First he said 120 mil, then 140 mil, now its 140-170 mil

 

Naturally he was on 700wlw this morning

Make sure everyone gets their video cameras ready.

 

Preferably a camera with a nice long lens. Pointed at Smitherman and clicking away the entire time. Because Chris, we can in fact take your picture.  :evil:

 

I would be more than happy to bring my 200mm F/2.8 and photograph him, but I'm stuck at work. Good luck to everyone.

^ He just keeps digging a deeper hole for himself.  Let's not interfere ...

He has other topics beyond just the Duke deal. Including the city increasing it's debt service millage last year, which he says is entirely due to the $64 mill in streetcar bonds and not the tens of millions of other bonds we issue

Each year. 

 

Additionally, unless the City pays the full $17 mill for Duke utilities, he will argue that the rest of the cost will be covered by rate payers in Blue Ash & West Chester (his main constituents apparently)

When the Duke deal is announced publicly, what reasoning will they have for the meeting then?

 

This entire meeting revolved around their hope that Duke and the city would never come to an agreement or that the cost would be 4 times the amount of whats stated

 

Anyone else notice Smitherman keeps inflating the cost of phase 1?  First he said 120 mil, then 140 mil, now its 140-170 mil

 

Naturally he was on 700wlw this morning

 

Excellent news.  I take it that Councilmember Smitherman has found an additional $30-60 million then? Otherwise why would he keep repeating that?

Do we really believe a construction accident would discourage these foamers from making another poisonous political statement?

 

Ha ha, those guys are the new foamers.

Anyone else notice Smitherman keeps inflating the cost of phase 1?  First he said 120 mil, then 140 mil, now its 140-170 mil

 

I don't agree with Smitherman and I don't know where he got his numbers from, but I wanted to say that the accountants at City Hall have a different way of thinking about costs.

 

Most of us think of construction costs as the amount that the contractor proposes when he bids the job. Often, the contractor asks for more money as the project progresses; sometimes he receives it, and sometimes not.

 

But there are other costs that are not part of the construction cost, such as administration, design, inspection, etc. Production of construction drawings and documents is significant. Inspection, or the salary for the city employees who keep an eye on the contractor during construction, occurs during construction but is not part of the bid price because the inspectors work for the city, not the contractor.

 

Administration is one that people forget about. Every time that a city employee who is drawing a salary sits down with a Duke employee, or politicians and employees on the payroll show up at a press conference, there is an administration cost. These costs are occurring now. If a project goes badly, millions of dollars might be spent on administration but the project might not ever get built.

 

Then there's good old inflation. A project that costs $1,000,000 if it's built in 2010 might cost $1,030,000 if it's built in 2011, a difference of $30,000, for no other reason than the value of the dollar is not constant in terms of concrete, steel, gasoline, labor, etc. Very high inflation was a significant factor in the Cincinnati Subway story.

 

In the end, total project cost for a typical city project is 50% more than the construction cost, or bid amount.

 

On top of that, any costs incurred by others such as Duke shows up on Duke's balance sheet but not the city's. MSD and Water Works costs show up in a round-about way, since MSD and Water Works are operated by the city. Social costs such as lost business during construction, along with loss of associated tax revenue, are real costs that are not tracked at all.

 

So, anytime that someone throws out a cost figure, the best question is, "What's included in that cost?"

The bid cost for any construction project almost always includes an escalation factor (5% per year, for example), administrative costs, costs for professional services (by architects, engineers, and consultants), and a contingency factor (say, 10%) to account for variables (change orders, lost time due to weather, etc.). And on this project I'd have to assume the contingency factor is beefed up a bit higher than what would be normal due to uncertainty about the utilities and the amount of political scrutiny involved. The assumption by the naysayers seems to be that this project is being run by idiots who have never managed a construction project before. These are people who manage construction projects for a living, and they have a good track record at doing so. Assuming there are no major setbacks, I'd be willing to bet this project comes in slightly under budget.

 

I wouldn't worry about hyperinflation unless another world war breaks out. But if that happens, we'll have much bigger problems to deal with.

If you take into account all costs including items like the cost of the Internet bandwidth used to handle emails of the streetcar project manager, then I would assuming you would also take into account items like: 1) the savings benefits of less frequent bus routes running in the area replaced by a more efficient streetcar and 2) decreased health care costs due to slightly decreased pollution in the area due to the streetcar.  I guess what I'm trying to say in a sarcastic way is: "Where do you draw the line on costs, savings and revenue generation projections?"

^ Not to mention all the lost productivity of UrbanOhio members posting to this thread. Maybe that's where Tom Luken gets his $4 billion figure.

There's a lot of volunteer hours in these 533 pages! And the equivalency rate is somewhere around $20 an hour!!

^ Still willing to bet we get to Page 1,000 before the streetcar opens.

If you take into account all costs including items like the cost of the Internet bandwidth used to handle emails of the streetcar project manager, then I would assuming you would also take into account items like: 1) the savings benefits of less frequent bus routes running in the area replaced by a more efficient streetcar and 2) decreased health care costs due to slightly decreased pollution in the area due to the streetcar.  I guess what I'm trying to say in a sarcastic way is: "Where do you draw the line on costs, savings and revenue generation projections?"

 

One thing I took away from Urban Planning before I left the profession was that at the end of the day, people do and build what they (think) they want. We are not really that rational, and rational cost/benefit analyses are at best complements to political will, and at worst, window dressing. It's OK to build something because it's what you want, even if you can't completely justify or analyze every single impact or eventuality.

^ Still willing to bet we get to Page 1,000 before the streetcar opens.

 

I'm willing to bet we hit 1000 before construction starts:)

If you take into account all costs including items like the cost of the Internet bandwidth used to handle emails of the streetcar project manager, then I would assuming you would also take into account items like: 1) the savings benefits of less frequent bus routes running in the area replaced by a more efficient streetcar and 2) decreased health care costs due to slightly decreased pollution in the area due to the streetcar.  I guess what I'm trying to say in a sarcastic way is: "Where do you draw the line on costs, savings and revenue generation projections?"

 

One thing I took away from Urban Planning before I left the profession was that at the end of the day, people do and build what they (think) they want. We are not really that rational, and rational cost/benefit analyses are at best complements to political will, and at worst, window dressing. It's OK to build something because it's what you want, even if you can't completely justify or analyze every single impact or eventuality.

 

So true.  Just reading the comments on fox19 on facebook about the streetcar is mind boggling.  People's minds are made up and there's no amount of changing it short of Jesus telling them on 700wlw He supports the streetcar

^ If he did, they'd probably crucify him again.

These are people who manage construction projects for a living, and they have a good track record at doing so.

 

He he he.

^ Still willing to bet we get to Page 1,000 before the streetcar opens.

 

I'm willing to bet we hit 1000 before construction starts:)

 

I'll take that bet. How much?

by my reckoning, we're already cracked 3,000. 

I didn't realize you were on the UO Exponential Pagination Plan!

Here is a video with lots of photos of the Silver Line metro extension in Reston, VA and streetcar construction in Washington, DC:

DC,VA Transit Plans

 

I am not familiar at all with the areas where these streetcar lines are being built, so can't really comment on them.  Meanwhile, the Silver Line metro extension is breaking the bank.  20 miles of new track, most of it in a highway median, is costing an incredible $6.8 billion.  Here we see the various problems with heavy rail versus light rail:

 

-all overpasses and aerial sections must be much stronger, and therefore must use much more concrete and steel

-everything near the track needs to be much stronger in order to survive the possible derailment of much larger and heavier trains

-the overuse of the shared Orange/Blue line subway in DC means that the suburban sections of the new Silver Line must have 600 foot trains and stations, even if 400 foot stations were appropriate for ridership on the new line. 

 

Meanwhile, the problem with building a line in an expressway median is that the whole line must be guarded by a pair of incredibly strong retaining walls (much more robust than standard Jersey barriers) that prevent fully-loaded trucks from breaking through and interrupting service.  In the case of this Silver Line extension, about 15 miles of the 20 mile extension are in the Dulles Access Road median, meaning 30 miles of such walls must be built.  Meanwhile, an *advantage* of heavy rail versus light rail is that the FTA permits heavy rail rapid transit lines to operate parallel to active freight railroad tracks, whereas light rail lines need similar concrete barrier walls in order to prevent freight train derailments from destroying light rail trains.

 

Meanwhile, the problem with building a line in an expressway median is that the whole line must be guarded by a pair of incredibly strong retaining walls (much more robust than standard Jersey barriers) that prevent fully-loaded trucks from breaking through and interrupting service.  In the case of this Silver Line extension, about 15 miles of the 20 mile extension are in the Dulles Access Road median, meaning 30 miles of such walls must be built.  Meanwhile, an *advantage* of heavy rail versus light rail is that the FTA permits heavy rail rapid transit lines to operate parallel to active freight railroad tracks, whereas light rail lines need similar concrete barrier walls in order to prevent freight train derailments from destroying light rail trains.

 

 

Except that all that concrete keeps the highway contractors happy.

Another planted letter in today's Enquirer:

 

Buffalo streetcar a failure

01/29/12 at 8:19am by Letters Editor  |  2 Comments

Open letter to Mayor Mallory:

 

[no link provided]

 

Thomas J. Forristal MD

 

Amelia Island, Fla.

 

 

Looked this guy up and apparently he was a practicing doctor in Cincinnati until 2001, now he is a pediatrician in Florida.  Not sure why someone who has apparently never lived in Buffalo would have this quote from their mayor of 30 years ago on the tip of his tongue. 

 

Another planted letter in today's Enquirer:

 

Buffalo streetcar a failure

01/29/12 at 8:19am by Letters Editor  |  2 Comments

Open letter to Mayor Mallory:

 

[no link provided]

 

Thomas J. Forristal MD

 

Amelia Island, Fla.

 

 

Looked this guy up and apparently he was a practicing doctor in Cincinnati until 2001, now he is a pediatrician in Florida.  Not sure why someone who has apparently never lived in Buffalo would have this quote from their mayor of 30 years ago on the tip of his tongue. 

 

 

A couple of things about Buffalo: First, the line is light rail, not a streetcar. Much of it is in a subway and that pushed up costs. It was intended to be the first part of a larger system, which was never built. Second, there are proposals to extend the light rail line to Buffalo Central Terminal and the airport, to the east. Funny that Forristal didn't mentaion all that when he seemingly had command of all the facts.

While I'm not sure how a rail transit line that carries 23,200 people a day is a failure (is he arguing for the closure of Interstate highways that carry fewer people than that?), he apparently has gotten bored since his retirement. He writes a LOT of letters to the editor of different newspapers mostly about right-wing issues....

 

Letters from readers: More automation

Posted: November 8, 2010 - 5:00am

 

POSTAL SAVINGS

More automation

A letter writer suggested several cost-cutting measures to the U.S. Post Service; but it left out the biggie: automation!

When I visit Cincinnati, I use the self-serve postal equipment in the 24/7 lobby at the Oakley branch.

I can usually finish in 60 seconds!

THOMAS J. FORRISTAL

Amelia Island

 

Read more at Jacksonville.com: http://jaxairnews.jacksonville.com/opinion/letters-readers/2010-11-08/story/letters-readers#ixzz1krmkF34h

 

_______________________________________________________

 

Wednesday, March 23, 2011

 

UNIONS

 

It all depends

 

Dueling political cartoons showed a tea party protester's sign proclaiming "taxed enough" and a union member's sign stating "dead man Walker" (governor of Wisconsin).

 

It's another example of the axiom: "It isn't what, it's who."

 

Thomas J. Forristal, Amelia Island

 

http://m.jacksonville.com/opinion/letters-readers/2011-03-23/story/letters-readers-take-pledge

 

_______________________________________________________

 

 

P&G’s diaper suit

06/13/11 at 11:48am by Letters Editor  |  0 Comments

Regarding the piece “P&G settles diaper rash lawsuit,” the plaintiffs get $1,000 each (there are 59); the lawyers get $2,700,000. That’s 2.7 million! They should have socialized law first.

 

Thomas Forristal, M.D.

Hyde Park

 

http://cincinnati.com/blogs/letters/tag/procter-gamble/

 

_______________________________________________________

 

Posted: August 15, 2009 - 11:00pm

 

HEALTH CARE

Beware the term "free"

As for medical care, if you think it is expensive now, wait until it is "free."

The country is already in such tremendous debt thanks to Medicare and Medicaid (given to illegals and those who never paid into the accounts).

So, do you think the free care will make the debt disappear?

As an attending physician at the Children's Hospital of Cincinnati, I have never seen a child turned away from the hospital for inability to pay.

But I have heard of adult hospitals having to close due to being overrun by indigents.

THOMAS J FORRISTAL, M.D.

Amelia Island

 

Read more at Jacksonville.com: http://www.hyatt.jacksonville.com/opinion/letters_from_readers/2009-08-16/story/letters_from_readers#ixzz1krpPu4H2

 

_______________________________________________________

 

He has also been donating to the University of Cincinnati for 32 years and counting (wonder if he knows that UC and its student council are streetcar supporters?)......

http://www.uc.edu/foundation/donor_recognition/loyalty_society/honor_roll.html

No person of sound mental health would write a letter to a Florida paper that mentions a specific neighborhood post office in Cincinnati.