What does Bill Rinehart know that we don't?

 

@700BillRinehart: "Streetcar groundbreaking next week?"

 

Brian THomas from 55krc spent THREE HOURS on his show ripping the project.

 

I think we may see unprecedented levels of Chris Smitherman today

 

Which means that all of 40 people heard it.

 

And I think many WLW listeners are starting to flip the station when Smitherman comes on to spew his streetcar hate. The guy is on every show every day saying the exact same thing. Even if you agree with him, you just can't listen to the monotony. Doc Thompson had him on all the time and his ratings tanked so bad that he was fired.

 

WLW continues to badger its listeners with the same guests all the time (Smitherman bashing the streetcar, Ghiz on her cell phone while driving) at its own risk.

Brian THomas from 55krc spent THREE HOURS on his show ripping the project.

 

I think we may see unprecedented levels of Chris Smitherman today

 

Which means that all of 40 people heard it.

 

And I think many WLW listeners are starting to flip the station when Smitherman comes on to spew his streetcar hate. The guy is on every show every day saying the exact same thing. Even if you agree with him, you just can't listen to the monotony. Doc Thompson had him on all the time and his ratings tanked so bad that he was fired.

 

WLW continues to badger its listeners with the same guests all the time (Smitherman bashing the streetcar, Ghiz on her cell phone while driving) at its own risk.

 

True...And Smitherman is coming on the Cunningham show at 1 to discuss "Shocking and disturbing new streetcar developments"  I listened today to hear Joe Biden talk with Cunningham and then he follows with Chris Smitherman.  Going from Biden to Smitherman is like rooting for the Yankees and then switching to the Royals

I'm no legal expert but if the area in question is the city's right of way, doesn't the city pretty much have control who is in it and where they are located?

To me, it sounds like the issue is that Duke considers the streetcar a city owned utility, and thus cannot force another utility to upgrade or relocate at their expense for the city-owned utility. If the streetcar is considered a transportation asset, then the utility must pay. How's streetcars considered in Ohio law (ORC), a utility or transportation asset (keeping in mind that the applicable ORC might date back from the time when the streetcar systems were private) ?.

 

That was my first thought.

I'm no legal expert but if the area in question is the city's right of way, doesn't the city pretty much have control who is in it and where they are located?

To me, it sounds like the issue is that Duke considers the streetcar a city owned utility, and thus cannot force another utility to upgrade or relocate at their expense for the city-owned utility. If the streetcar is considered a transportation asset, then the utility must pay. How's streetcars considered in Ohio law (ORC), a utility or transportation asset (keeping in mind that the applicable ORC might date back from the time when the streetcar systems were private) ?.

 

That was my first thought.

 

Exactly, and the threshold issue is whether the Cincinnati Streetcar is a utility under the applicable Ohio statute and caselaw. The Duke letter refers to the "streetcar utility project" in order to fit within the language of the statue. I have not researched the issue, but assume the the City and Duke have.  There is probably room for interpretation here, and, unfortunately, Duke's action may be a prelude to some legal jousting, not to mention seeking to regain some perceived leverage over the City in the wake of the utility aggregation hearings.

 

Was the subway project considered a public utility? What about other light rail lines that run close to (although not in), e.g. Cleveland, but perhaps required utility relocations?  Like I said, I don't know what the Ohio courts have said on the issue.  Secondarily, to the extent applicable, you could look at other states (someone mentioned Minneapolis) however that may be of limited relevance depending on the language of the applicable statutes

This would be the ORC section to read, I think: Chapter 745: STREET RAILWAYS, if anyone is up for the challenge.  The Cincinnati charter may govern some of the issues, as well.

 

Edit: This section may be better: http://codes.ohio.gov/orc/4951

>Was the subway project considered a public utility?

 

No, I don't think so.  The Rapid Transit Commission was enabled by a 1915 act of the state legislature known as The Bauer Act, which I have read, but do not recall the word utility appearing in it.  I have a copy of the act at home and will look at it tonight. 

Brian THomas from 55krc spent THREE HOURS on his show ripping the project.

 

I think we may see unprecedented levels of Chris Smitherman today

 

Which means that all of 40 people heard it.

 

And I think many WLW listeners are starting to flip the station when Smitherman comes on to spew his streetcar hate. The guy is on every show every day saying the exact same thing. Even if you agree with him, you just can't listen to the monotony. Doc Thompson had him on all the time and his ratings tanked so bad that he was fired.

 

WLW continues to badger its listeners with the same guests all the time (Smitherman bashing the streetcar, Ghiz on her cell phone while driving) at its own risk.

 

True...And Smitherman is coming on the Cunningham show at 1 to discuss "Shocking and disturbing new streetcar developments"  I listened today to hear Joe Biden talk with Cunningham and then he follows with Chris Smitherman.  Going from Biden to Smitherman is like rooting for the Yankees and then switching to the Royals

 

The Royals? It's like going from the Yankees to Little Miami HS reserve baseball. But you know that Smitherman was just beaming with pride with the knowledge that he followed the vice president.

^I didn't listen to the segment, but I'd be shocked if the Streetcar was even mentioned while the Vice President was on.  I'm sure he supports it, given how strongly pro-rail he is.

Just reading the remarks at this date on this subject, and I have been told I need to get with the program. This thread is 6 years old. That is how long the streetcar project has taken to get at this point.

 

Then we are told, on what is expected to be the start of construction, the City of Cincinnati and Duke Energy are at an impasse over the cost of utility relocation. Duke says the City must pay or they will not begin work. The City says no you must pay as a public utility you are required to relocate.

 

First of all, why was this not decided a long time ago, during the various periods when the streetcar project was taken to the voters? To me shows what great planning went into this endeavor.

 

But that aside, why should Duke be required to pay for the cost of utility relocation? Let me make it more simple than that. If Duke is required to relocate the utilities, they should be able to recoup the cost from those who are going to benefit. I keep being told how this streetcar is going to spur development and raise property values along the line. Fine, so let those who will benefit pay for the utility relocation cost via a surcharge on their utility bills spread over say 20 or 30 years.

Kjbrill, at your old age, you are somehow completely unfamiliar with obstructionist tactics. 

What does Bill Rinehart know that we don't?

 

@700BillRinehart: "Streetcar groundbreaking next week?"

This came from the mouth of Johnna Reeder during Cunningham's first hour. She stated they (the city) were planning a ribbon cutting ceremony next week.

 

But that aside, why should Duke be required to pay for the cost of utility relocation? Let me make it more simple than that. If Duke is required to relocate the utilities, they should be able to recoup the cost from those who are going to benefit. I keep being told how this streetcar is going to spur development and raise property values along the line. Fine, so let those who will benefit pay for the utility relocation cost via a surcharge on their utility bills spread over say 20 or 30 years.

 

Duke is not legally allowed to charge customers higher rates because they live near the proposed streetcar line.  If you want to make the argument that they should be able to do so, you open a box of worms.  By that argument, suburban and rural customers should be paying much higher rates since they require several more miles of transmission lines for their service than urban customers do. 

 

While we’re on that topic, what makes it obvious that Duke is simply playing hardball against a streetcar they don’t support is that they will gladly build miles and miles of underground utilities to service exurban residential developments, but won’t move a small amount of utilities for the streetcar.

 

Doesn't many of the suburban communities have impact fees that they charge developers to mitigate and offset the costs of underground placements of utilities?

 

In my opinion, if they do that there, it should be offered here and be put up to vote. There is nothing worse than the occasional wind or storm that comes through and knocks out power to thousands. It seemingly happens every other week, and besides having unsightly poles and wires strung everywhere, underground utilities are more reliable.

Just reading the remarks at this date on this subject, and I have been told I need to get with the program. This thread is 6 years old. That is how long the streetcar project has taken to get at this point.

 

How many years has the Brent Spence plan been talked about? How far is it from starting? Duke is already moving utilities for Brent Spence and the state is not paying them. They are doing a massive project in front of Longeworth hall to prepare for the new bridge and it's all paid for by rate

Payers.

 

Then we are told, on what is expected to be the start of construction, the City of Cincinnati and Duke Energy are at an impasse over the cost of utility relocation. Duke says the City must pay or they will not begin work. The City says no you must pay as a public utility you are required to relocate.

 

First of all, why was this not decided a long time ago, during the various periods when the streetcar project was taken to the voters? To me shows what great planning went into this endeavor.

 

Decided?!? I don't think you know how negotiations work. This has been being negotiators for 2 years. All other utilities have settled.

 

But that aside, why should Duke be required to pay for the cost of utility relocation? Let me make it more simple than that. If Duke is required to relocate the utilities, they should be able to recoup the cost from those who are going to benefit. I keep being told how this streetcar is going to spur development and raise property values along the line. Fine, so let those who will benefit pay for the utility relocation cost via a surcharge on their utility bills spread over say 20 or 30 years.

 

Duke is going to upgrade these lines in the next few years as the cast iron gas pipes become dangerously old. They are currently on a 15 year program go replace all 1200 miles up gas lines in southwest Ohio. This includes downtown and OTR. They actually raised our rates to fund this a few years ago. This is simply a ploy to get brand new pipes paid for by the city.

^ Exactly. Duke just sees the opportunity to play the streetcar-obsessed press and suburban opposition against the city in order to spend less money. If the project weren't such a media darling, this would be a non-issue, as it is with innumerable road projects, including the Brent Spence.

The Ohio Statehouse took 28 years to complete.

Speaking of the Brent Spence Bridge, who do you suppose is paying to move Duke's transformer farm that's in the way of the new bridge?

Duke is, because the Brent Spence supplement benefits everyo-- I mean exurban Kentuckians.

How many hundred million dollars do you suppose this will cost Duke?

I'm from the Dayton area, so I haven't been following this very long.  But I am familiar with many transit projects of this type outside Cincinnati.  I've never heard of utilities being this much of an issue anywhere...I get a sense the utilities have become a 'lightning rod' for all sorts of other political agendas. 

 

Specifically what type of utility is the issue: and are we talking above ground or underground?  One day I read the issue was sewers, the next I heard it was electric power?  Maybe I'm wrong, but I get a sense the owners of some underground utility lines are concerned about their lines being covered with tracks...(presumably they are concerned about access for maintenance or replacement)...but then other forces are blowing what should be an engineering discussion way out of proportion :wtf:?  Is my take on this issue correct?     

^ I think forces behind the scene is the problem.

From day one we have had state funding banned by a representative not even from this streetcar district. Having funding cut by ODOT for this #1 rated project in the whole state. I could go on and on.

^ I think forces behind the scene is the problem.

From day one we have had state funding banned by a representative not even from this streetcar district. Having funding cut by ODOT for this #1 rated project in the whole state. I could go on and on.

 

Exactly, lets reiterate that...>State funding pulled from the #1 rated project in the entire state.  This was done just completely out of the blue as soon as Kasich too office and started his reign of terror.

^ I think forces behind the scene is the problem

 

 

I don't doubt for a second that it was Kasich and the region's Republican strategists who pulled this with his cronies at Duke.  They waited until they knew the groundbreaking was really happening -- even booked flights to go on the Portland trip in March -- then pulled this crap right at the very last minute to make Mallory, etc., look bad.  They probably even waited until yesterday because Mallory was out of town at the streetcar meeting and couldn't answer in person.  I think part of the reason why Kasich has been so tough on this project is because it's an opportunity to embarrass Mallory, who is seen as a viable candidate for high office. 

Duke has become very Political. Their president was on WLw today ranting about the City with Sloanie. they even insinuated the mayor shouldn't have gone to DC to talk about streetcars since ours didn't have a duke deal in place. Who the hell are they to say he can't go to a conference?!? He's not part of the negotiations, that's the managers job.

They were going to make money by being paid for the Electricity for the streetcar. Now with aggregation they will almost certainly not be the provider.

Battery powered streetcars looks like a real good deal right about now. Maybe run electric through the CBD and the Banks, since there is no overhead wires to worry about, then use the battery through OTR.

Yup, you guys just answered my question...it's dirty politics and a lot of that is coming from Columbus.  But, still...my question about the utilities...  Is it the above ground or the underground utilities that are the big boogey man?  If need be...there's a way of gettin' around it, whatever...  If above ground utilities are the problem go with batteries...if below ground utilities are the problem and the city has control of what's overhead go with electric trolleybuses ('trackless trolleys').

Duke Energy bought Cincinnati Gas and Electric a few years ago. They are the company at the center of this conflict. So we are talking above and below ground electric lines as well a gas lines (obviously below ground).

 

8 feet?

The utilities in Tuscon, Az are pledging 11 million toward the streetcar project there.

 

http://www.tucsonstreetcar.com/background.htm

Lets get the word out.  LTE, citybeat, Email duke energy, email Enquirer, email everyone.  This is a ridiculously shady move by Duke.  The word needs to get out before Duke/Kasich come up with their spin that will recycle in the local media

 

 

If you google street view ANY of the streetcar Route in Portland you see dozens of gas and other Utilty mains within 2-3 feet Of the streetcar tracks.

 

Can we PLEASE start a FB campaign to post screenshots of these street view images on Dukes page?

Think of the success of the Komen/PP campaign. Let's point out that they are lying.

If you google street view ANY of the streetcar Route in Portland you see dozens of gas and other Utilty mains within 2-3 feet Of the streetcar tracks.

 

Can we PLEASE start a FB campaign to post screenshots of these street view images on Dukes page?

Think of the success of the Komen/PP campaign. Let's point out that they are lying.

 

That is a great idea as well.  It will have a ton of support.  These direct lies from Duke need to be confronted before they start spreading. 

 

The word needs to get out. 

 

Also, we need to show up tomorrow at 2pm at City Hall for the Smitherman drama.  Luken COAST and all their goons will be there so get your cell phone video's ready for the show.

A few pages back, someone asked about the City of Cincinnati taking over control of Duke utilities. I just looked it up, and found that CG&E or a predecessor company has been forced to defend itself against organized campaigns aimed at municipal ownership three times, in 1933, 1941, and 1949.

 

In 1949, the proposal was made that the City acquire both The Cincinnati Gas and Electric Company and the Street Railway Company and "return car fares to ten cents by subsidizing the Street Railway out of the proceeds of the Gas Company." (Source: "The CG&E story," Keagy and Strunk)

 

 

^^ The genius of that idea is that people will look at pictures. Linking to articles and wordy data stuff does no good, because people would rather not look into anything that deeply.

Quimbob, that photo is absolutely priceless.  It sure doesn't look like 8 feet to me. 

 

I gotta say it -- this bogus controversy about manhole clearance is reminding me of an old joke about why women have poor perception of measurements...

Just heard the Duke Energy woman being interviewed this morning. 

 

She said that every other city building streetcars had a safety net of 8 feet.  Then she said the utility estimate may be more once they get down there

 

She stressed they support the project and have donated money towards it

8 feet from where? 8 feet from the centerline between the rails would be reasonable. 8 feet from the outside of the streetcar's path of travel would be absurd.

8 feet from where? 8 feet from the centerline between the rails would be reasonable. 8 feet from the outside of the streetcar's path of travel would be absurd.

 

8 feet from any negotiations with the city on safety

Doesn't many of the suburban communities have impact fees that they charge developers to mitigate and offset the costs of underground placements of utilities?

 

In my opinion, if they do that there, it should be offered here and be put up to vote. There is nothing worse than the occasional wind or storm that comes through and knocks out power to thousands. It seemingly happens every other week, and besides having unsightly poles and wires strung everywhere, underground utilities are more reliable.

 

IIRC, most UG utilities are placed and paid for by the developer as it is a desirable asset for their development/subdivision.

Quimbob, that photo is absolutely priceless.  It sure doesn't look like 8 feet to me. 

 

I gotta say it -- this bogus controversy about manhole clearance is reminding me of an old joke about why women have poor perception of measurements...

In the pix, that lid could be anything....water/sewer/storm/electric/phone. Each utility has different access requirements for their facilities

Just reading the remarks at this date on this subject, and I have been told I need to get with the program. This thread is 6 years old. That is how long the streetcar project has taken to get at this point.

 

How many years has the Brent Spence plan been talked about? How far is it from starting? Duke is already moving utilities for Brent Spence and the state is not paying them. They are doing a massive project in front of Longeworth hall to prepare for the new bridge and it's all paid for by rate Payers.

 

 

Cite? Utility relocation for highway projects cannot proceed until right of way purchased and cleared, which has not happened with the BSB

 

Is this is what you are witnessing?

 

http://www.duke-energy.com/pdfs/WestendFactSheet.pdf

 

A few pages back, someone asked about the City of Cincinnati taking over control of Duke utilities. I just looked it up, and found that CG&E or a predecessor company has been forced to defend itself against organized campaigns aimed at municipal ownership three times, in 1933, 1941, and 1949.

 

In 1949, the proposal was made that the City acquire both The Cincinnati Gas and Electric Company and the Street Railway Company and "return car fares to ten cents by subsidizing the Street Railway out of the proceeds of the Gas Company." (Source: "The CG&E story," Keagy and Strunk)

 

 

 

Maybe that idea should be revisited as a practical matter of financing transit and other public transportation and in retaliation for Duke and Kasich. This would be a real declaration of independence.

 

At any rate, just the threat of such an action ought to give Duke pause. Maybe it's time for the city fathers or transit advocates to start playing a little hardball.

Seems odd that they can miss 25 million in stolen copper over years and not notice. Yet they say this costs 18.7 million to relocate the utilities.

the question is whether Duke would play hardball with Charlotte the same way it is doing in Cincinnati.

The utilities in Tuscon, Az is pledging 11 million toward the streetcar project there.

 

http://www.tucsonstreetcar.com/background.htm

 

Does Duke really think they'll get new infrastructure for free?

Public ownership of what are now Duke's assets might be prerequisite to a Metro Moves-type effort, in order to avoid these sorts of obstructionist moves.  People wonder why China and other countries can do these projects so much more quickly and for so much less money and you're seeing one of the reasons why right now.

Quimbob, that photo is absolutely priceless.  It sure doesn't look like 8 feet to me. 

 

I gotta say it -- this bogus controversy about manhole clearance is reminding me of an old joke about why women have poor perception of measurements...

In the pix, that lid could be anything....water/sewer/storm/electric/phone. Each utility has different access requirements for their facilities

ok, they say they can't work within 8ft

Quimbob, that photo is absolutely priceless.  It sure doesn't look like 8 feet to me. 

 

I gotta say it -- this bogus controversy about manhole clearance is reminding me of an old joke about why women have poor perception of measurements...

In the pix, that lid could be anything....water/sewer/storm/electric/phone. Each utility has different access requirements for their facilities

 

 

ok, they say they can't work within 8ft

 

Unbelievable.  Duke is literally lying to every local media outlet that will listen about 'safety concerns'. 

 

 

 

 

 

Barry Horstman @barryhorstman

 

As they have repeatedly in past, both sides in streetcar debate doing their best to pack Cincinnati City Council chambers for 2pm meeting