Interesting...thanks for the info.  I saw Charlotte right before it went into construction but I haven't been back since. 

 

I like our trolleybuses in the City of Dayton, as there's rarely an issue with underground utilities since the infrastructure is all overhead.  With smaller excavation projects the trolley has the "reach" to just detour around.  Larger projects involving overhead utilities, it's not that expensive to take down the trolley lines and re-install them when your project is finished. 

NJT installs manholes before and after intersections usually on the sidewalk or in the trackbed.....the Manholes are branded NJT.  Other systems do the same , Septa brands poles aswell....on there streetcar routes...

Just curious. Is anyone sending these photos to The Enquirer or any other news stations?

This story needs to make it into Soapbox at the very least. Sounds like a job for Casey Coston.

Interesting...thanks for the info.  I saw Charlotte right before it went into construction but I haven't been back since. 

 

I like our trolleybuses in the City of Dayton,

 

I'm fascinated by Dayton's trolleybus system and plan to make a trip there soon to check it out, but IMHO the benefits of a fixed rail streetcar outweigh that of a Trolleybus system. Utility problem or not, I'm glad the city is sticking to its guns and that starting Friday we're going to see the streetcar system's construction underway.

The electric trolleybuses probably remain in service for more years than a normal diesel bus, but not as long as streetcars or light rail.  This and the use of electricity, whose price is more stable, and which can potentially come from renewable sources, is their main advantage.  Otherwise they still have limited capacity and the rough ride of normal buses.  Also, unlike streetcars, they require two overhead wires, and Dayton still has the original overhead, which appears to require many more support wires than modern systems.   

I don't know of any American city that's starting a new trolleybus system -- for exactly the reasons that Jake outlines above.

Mark, is it possible to get clear jpg's out of these?

 

 

Quick Google Maps search over coffee this morning. Of course, no way telling what utility these manholes cover...

 

Little Rock

 

Memphis

 

Portland

 

Seattle (features a SDOT work crew)

 

 

 

Read more: http://www.urbanohio.com/forum2/index.php/topic,18957.16260.html#ixzz1m6RJVjYg

 

LOVE these photos! There ought to be an archive of good pics such as these on UO.

If you want to see trolleys in Dayton avoid coming on a weekend or holiday.  At present they operate weekdays only.  Mostly they run on line#4 which traverses an east-west axis through the city and through downtown.  There is a separate thread about these, under the City photos section I think.

 

 

"I'm fascinated by Dayton's trolleybus system and plan to make a trip there soon to check it out"

Jake, thanks a bunch. I don't think it makes any difference whatsoever what's in the manhole. These are all new builds, and so they're all probably live manholes. Is there some standard by which electrical workers ought to greater safety than sewer or telephone workers.

 

Casey, will post the paragraph from your friend's email that details what Duke is requiring with respect to the new Charlotte Streetcar?

 

Sure.  Thought I already did.  This is from someone who works for the city with regard to TOD around the streetcar system:

 

In Charlotte we are mandating a three foot clear zone on all utilities for the streetcar system. We will be following the Seattle / Portland construction method of single lane excavation with concrete bed and rails. Utilities that are underneath or with 3 feet of the edge of slab bed will be relocated. Cathodic protection is found to be adequate at that distance.

 

Our light rail system will have closer to an 8 - 12 foot clear zone due to the vehicles being larger, running at much higher speeds and in 2 - 3 car sets. None of the light rail will be in-traffic. Some of it will be in-median but in an exclusive ballast and tie right of way.

 

Just spit balling here but it sounds to me like the local Duke engineers have not been brought up to speed with the state of the art on construction techniques for differing rail systems. I am assuming that the Cincy system will be something like the Siemens SR-70 run in single sets at speeds no more than 35 - 40 mph. A strategy would eb to have the Duke engineers meet with their peers in other cities.

Chris Smitherman is going to host yet another 700wlw 2 hour show tonight on the streetcar....So again I ask:

 

How is this legal?  How is it legal to go on the biggest radio station in town to promote an agenda while sitting on city council promoting that very same agenda?

 

 

He is so far out on a limb here, just let him keep sawing.

"Utilities that are...within 3' of the edge of slab bed..."  Anybody know what does this mean as far as the distance from the rim of the manhole to the edge of the closest rail? "Edge of slab bed" is how far from the edge of the closest rail?

 

Our streetcar is comparable to the proposed Charlotte Streetcar, not the Lynx light rail. 

 

"In Charlotte we (meaning the city I assume) are mandating" ...OK.  Assume just for the sake of argument the practice described here for Charlotte is basically standard for the USA.  So the question is if Duke Energy "mandates" a different standard I suppose they are well entitled to do this.  But why should any City be required to pay costs associated with that more restrictive standard?  What checks and balances are in place to prevent Duke Energy from asking for ten feet, or fifty feet for that matter?

In Charlotte we are mandating a three foot clear zone on all utilities for the streetcar system. We will be following the Seattle / Portland construction method of single lane excavation with concrete bed and rails. Utilities that are underneath or with 3 feet of the edge of slab bed will be relocated. Cathodic protection is found to be adequate at that distance.

 

Our light rail system will have closer to an 8 - 12 foot clear zone due to the vehicles being larger, running at much higher speeds and in 2 - 3 car sets. None of the light rail will be in-traffic. Some of it will be in-median but in an exclusive ballast and tie right of way.

 

Just spit balling here but it sounds to me like the local Duke engineers have not been brought up to speed with the state of the art on construction techniques for differing rail systems. I am assuming that the Cincy system will be something like the Siemens SR-70 run in single sets at speeds no more than 35 - 40 mph. A strategy would eb to have the Duke engineers meet with their peers in other cities.

^ The slab bed is the strip of reinforced concrete that shows up in all of these photos.  Duke is headquartered in Charlotte. You'd think if the three-foot standard is good enough for Charlotte's new streetcar -- especially since Charlotte has had light rail for serveral years and so has some safety experience -- then three feet would be good enough for Cincinnati too.

It could be a corporate culture thing.  Even though it's one company NOW, that's a relatively recent situation.  It could be that the (North Carolina) Duke folks and the (former) CG&E folks aren't communicating or coordinating as well as they should. 

I like this picture that another user posted Saturday, but it's Portland not Charlotte.  The "slab bed" appears to extend no more than 2 feet beyond the outside rail.  I'm not a civil engineer but 3 feet beyond the edge of the slab bed sounds like no more than about 5 feet from the edge of the nearest rail.  (This manhole is way closer, but we don't know whose power it is, it may be for the Portland streetcar itself.) Five does not equal eight, but has anybody clarified yet how Duke is measuring?  As another user pointed out earlier in this thread, they could be talking about eight feet from the centerline of the two tracks--which would be about 7' from centerline to edge of manhole rim.   

 

   

Here it is:  What I'm thinking...Duke's engineering staff and our City staff might be saying the same thing but just measuring differently...which begs the question: if they are basically talking about the same amount of excavation then how the heck do they come up with millions more dollars for basically the same job!??

 

8 feet from where? 8 feet from the centerline between the rails would be reasonable. 8 feet from the outside of the streetcar's path of travel would be absurd.

What checks and balances are in place to prevent Duke Energy from asking for ten feet, or fifty feet for that matter?

 

The street is a free-for-all. Ultimately, the checks and balances would be determined by a court, if the utilities can't work it out among themselves.

 

I can tell you how it normally happens on other projects. Suppose that Cincinnati Water Works wants to install a new water main, and there's a pole in the way. The first thing to do is figure out who owns the pole. Suppose it's Duke. Then, water works sends some plans to Duke, and requests that Duke move the pole. Duke will provide a price, say $8000 (that's what it costs to move a pole these days,) and get Water Works to sign it. Duke will send a crew to move the pole, and Duke will send the bill to Water Works.

 

Obviously, if Water Works wants to save some money as well as some hassle, they will design their project in such a way to avoid the need to move a pole in the first place, but sometimes it's unavoidable.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Thanks Eighth & State, what I'm wondering now...suppose Cincinnati is saying 3' from the "edge of slab bed" (as is Charlotte as noted above by another user) and then Duke says "yea...we mean 8' from centerline between tracks to the edge of manhole rim".  In that case the city and Duke are really saying the same thing if you round up to the nearest foot.  So the whole measurement thing becomes almost moot.  So is there something else out there (besides excavation cost) that could explain why their estimate is--what, 12 million!!--higher than the City's??

In Charlotte we are mandating a three foot clear zone on all utilities for the streetcar system. We will be following the Seattle / Portland construction method of single lane excavation with concrete bed and rails. Utilities that are underneath or with 3 feet of the edge of slab bed will be relocated. Cathodic protection is found to be adequate at that distance.

 

I didn't think of this before, but this is another aspect of clearance between utilities:

Any pipeline made of iron or steel tends to rust. Rust is an electrical process, which can be accelerated by the presence of water, salt, minerals in the soil, and electric currents in adjacent utilities, including streetcar rails. I have no idea what clearances are considered safe, or even if this is a concern of Duke, but I bet it varies by electric current, soil type, and pipe material. The situation may be different in Cincinnati than it is in Charlotte; I know that there are some very old utilities in Over-the-Rhine. Cathodic protection is a method to counteract electrical currents in the soil by imposing an electrical current in the opposite direction (simplified explanation).

 

 

Thanks Eighth & State, what I'm wondering now...suppose Cincinnati is saying 3' from the "edge of slab bed" (as is Charlotte as noted above by another user) and then Duke says "yea...we mean 8' from centerline between tracks to the edge of manhole rim".  In that case the city and Duke are really saying the same thing if you round up to the nearest foot.  So the whole measurement thing becomes almost moot.  So is there something else out there (besides excavation cost) that could explain why their estimate is--what, 12 million!!--higher than the City's??

 

The media reported "Eight feet from the tracks," which is ambiguous. As I recall, a poster previously reported that they wanted "8 feet from the streetcar envelope" The California standard is "Three feet from edge of rail to the manhole opening" and the quote from Charlotte said "Three feet from the edge of the slab to the utility."

 

I honestly don't know what Duke is requesting, but whatever it is, it is obviously a whole lot more than what the City of Cincinnati is prepared to pay.  There could be some simple miss-communication, but I think that a more likely explanation is that the City of Cincinnati did not put enough effort into working out the utility relocation costs until AFTER they published the project budget, $110 million or whatever the latest figure is, and instead of increasing their budget to allow for the real cost, they are attempting to save face and hold to the published budget by imposing their wishes on the utilities.

 

The City of Cincinnati has some control over MSD and Water Works, because those utilities are operated by the City, although MSD is funded by Hamilton County, as we have discussed before. The City of Cincinnati, however, does NOT have any control over Duke, and we haven't even gotten to Cincinnati Bell, Level 3, Sprint, and others yet.

 

Remember, in Ohio, streetcars have the same legal status as utilities. It may be different in other states. The City of Cincinnati CANNOT simply claim ownership of the street and force the other utilities out of the way for the streetcar project. (They CAN force them out for road projects. It's not fair, but that's the way it is.)  I'm not sure that the City of Cincinnati even knows this, but Duke certainly does. And I do think that Duke is making a statement that they are not going to be pushed around by the City of Cincinnati, or any other city.

Yup...that's why somebody went to court years ago and forced Cincinnati to put in a dual wire system that grounded above like the trolleybuses, not underground.  I think over time it was proven that the ground wire above didn't make much difference as far as protecting the utilities. 

 

Anyway, now that we have a statement from Charlotte that does seem to put things in a slightly different light.  Just the thing about  "3' from the edge of the slab" ...that's different from saying "3' from edge of rail."  And you can bet they probably are thinking of the electrical current problem...but still, I have trouble getting my mind around the 12-million-is-it? difference in cost estimates. 

Yikes!  You may be right but I sure hope this isn't the case...

"There could be some simple miss-communication, but I think that a more likely explanation is that the City of Cincinnati did not put enough effort into working out the utility relocation costs until AFTER they published the project budget, $110 million or whatever the latest figure is, and instead of increasing their budget to allow for the real cost, they are attempting to save face and hold to the published budget by imposing their wishes on the utilities."

 

 

 

^ OK, first all you have to do is read the letter from Duke to the City to clarify what they want (http://news.cincinnati.com/assets/AB18487328.PDF): "the current design does not include the minimum eight feet distance between the edge of the streetcar and company's underground system..."  Probably the "edge of the streetcar" isn't that much different from the edge of the concrete slab poured for the rails.

 

Second, I couldn't disagree more with Eighth and State's "analysis" here.  The city isn't backpedaling due to a bad estimate due to a lack of communication; they are raising the intensity of negotiation to make their case that an 8 foot distance is a waste of taxpayer money.  That's called responsible government in my book.

Probably the "edge of the streetcar" isn't that much different from the edge of the concrete slab poured for the rails.

 

Just read the letter for the first time...I would agree "edge of streetcar" probably is roughly equal to Charlotte's "edge of slab" or whatever they called it.  Last streetcar I was on did have an overhang that extended out beyond the rail, for the steps and lift.  I'm gonna go to the groundbreaking...think I'll go celebrate after.  :clap: 

 

Anyway, it does sound like Duke is trying to impose a higher standard of separation based on the precise wording of this letter.

^I think we are saying the same thing. Both parties are trying to defend their position. I am trying to present it from Duke's point of view, since there are plenty of presentations from the City's point of view already on this board. Personally, I don't know enough about the technology to say what is reasonable, and I am not trying to take sides. 

 

The thing that bothers me the most is that both parties have issued letters stating that they will not respect the other's opinion, and brought what should be a technical issue into the public arena, with lots of media attention. Usually, some uncelebrated guys in muddy boots driving pickup trucks meet in the field to work out utility conflicts. Now, we have the guys wearing suits involved, with spokespeople making statements on television. This is not a good sign for the streetcar, because even if the City wins this conflict, it is going to cost more time and money, and generate a lot of animosity.

^I think we are saying the same thing. Both parties are trying to defend their position. I am trying to present it from Duke's point of view, since there are plenty of presentations from the City's point of view already on this board. Personally, I don't know enough about the technology to say what is reasonable, and I am not trying to take sides. 

 

The thing that bothers me the most is that both parties have issued letters stating that they will not respect the other's opinion, and brought what should be a technical issue into the public arena, with lots of media attention.

 

And that started with Duke. I'm glad to see the city sticking up for itself and playing hardball back.

 

Usually, some uncelebrated guys in muddy boots driving pickup trucks meet in the field to work out utility conflicts. Now, we have the guys wearing suits involved, with spokespeople making statements on television. This is not a good sign for the streetcar, because even if the City wins this conflict, it is going to cost more time and money, and generate a lot of animosity.

 

I'd say it's a great sign for the streetcar. It brought the project attention and really got out the groundbreaking announcement and force's Duke's hand.

Some context. It's not like this issue has just come up. I've know about it for at least a year. There is no misunderstanding or mis-communication or anything like that. Measured from the edge of the operating envelope of the vehicle, Duke wants eight feet clear, the City is willing to pay for three feet of move. The difference in that cost has been known for a long time.

 

I think it's interesting that all of the other utilities have agreed that three feet is OK, and Duke wants over twice the separation. Who is the outlier here?

 

Someone wrote something about stray currents. The City has its stray current expert and Duke has theirs. I heard that the two experts pretty much agreed there was no problem, and the Duke expert has never been heard from again. The only place where I've heard stray currents to be a problem in modern systems that have the rubber boot around the rail is in Houston, where the light rail runs through a low-lying area near the M. D. Anderson Cancer Research Center. The soil stays moist and is highly conductive, but I think they have solved that problem now.

Some context. It's not like this issue has just come up. I've know about it for at least a year. There is no misunderstanding or mis-communication or anything like that. Measured from the edge of the operating envelope of the vehicle, Duke wants eight feet clear, the City is willing to pay for three feet of move. The difference in that cost has been known for a long time.

 

I think it's interesting that all of the other utilities have agreed that three feet is OK, and Duke wants over twice the separation. Who is the outlier here?

 

Someone wrote something about stray currents. The City has its stray current expert and Duke has theirs. I heard that the two experts pretty much agreed there was no problem, and the Duke expert has never been heard from again. The only place where I've heard stray currents to be a problem in modern systems that have the rubber boot around the rail is in Houston, where the light rail runs through a low-lying area near the M. D. Anderson Cancer Research Center. The soil stays moist and is highly conductive, but I think they have solved that problem now.

 

What do you think Duke is trying to accomplish here? 

IMO, it all comes down to money. They want the taxpayers to pick up the tab for replacing their decrepit infrastructure, much of which they're already under legal obligation to replace.

IMO, it all comes down to money. They want the taxpayers to pick up the tab for replacing their decrepit infrastructure, much of which they're already under legal obligation to replace.

 

I wish it were that benign.

John, you're the king of cryptic posts on the UrbanOhio streetcar thread. :-)

IMO, it all comes down to money. They want the taxpayers to pick up the tab for replacing their decrepit infrastructure, much of which they're already under legal obligation to replace.

 

I wish it were that benign.

 

Either way, it doesn't sound like they have much of an argument to make.  The other utilities agreed to 3 feet, 3 feet appears to be the standard nationwide, and even Duke is using 3 feet in Charlotte.  At some point they need to provide a logical defense of their position, and there appears to be none.

 

Either way, it doesn't sound like they have much of an argument to make.  The other utilities agreed to 3 feet, 3 feet appears to be the standard nationwide, and even Duke is using 3 feet in Charlotte.  At some point they need to provide a logical defense of their position, and there appears to be none.

 

Especially since we don't have particularly wide streets here.  Once you establish an 8 foot clear zone on either side of the track, there's not really much room left for a utility corridor that then doesn't encroach on other utilities, basement accesses, curbs, sidewalks, street trees, or even their own overhead wires. 

IMO, it all comes down to money. They want the taxpayers to pick up the tab for replacing their decrepit infrastructure, much of which they're already under legal obligation to replace.

 

I wish it were that benign.

 

Ugh.  Why do I have a feeling Kasich is involved somewhere

The streetcar had to do the ground breaking Friday or they would have risked losing federal funding. They need to Build Phase one ASAP so they can get apply for another Tiger grant for phase 2.

Being from out of town, I haven't been following this until just recently, when it became apparent to me that the streetcar is really going to happen.  A week ago I had no opinion about who had the stronger argument: Duke or the City.  Eighth & State has done a good job of being the devil's advocate by presenting the things that Duke will almost certainly come up with if this goes to court.  I have experience with trolleybuses but not streetcars, so I've been posting a lot of stuff trying to get answers to numerous engineering questions that apply to your situation (the 'stray power' problem, & the 3' issue for example). 

 

At this point after reading all of the above, I would side with the City if I were a juror...but of course it's not that simple!  My point is y'all have done a great job collecting a lot of information.  Even if it's not specific enough to be evidence in court (as is the point I think 8th & State has been trying to make)...I hope that some of you locals have the contacts to get all this information to the Mayor and appropriate City staff.  Certainly the hundreds of hours we have collectively spent doing this research can galvanize the opinions of supporters around the legitimacy of our position.  Never forget...Power is the ability to get the right information to the right people at the right time!  As for me...I'm going to the groundbreaking and celebrating after... :drunk:

Could the city do the sewer work and then send Duke the bill? Is there a legal basis for that?

So how are we having a groundbreaking with the Duke situation totally unresolved? What work can actually be done before this is sorted out?

There's a lot more to the streetcar than just the Duke Energy stuff. Work can proceed on the rest of the project while negotiations continue with Duke Energy.

^ Perhaps, at the groundbreaking, Mallory will announce an agreement with Duke.  I'm sure that's what he has imagined.

^ ehhh. If two years led to a break in communications, I doubt 1 week will change things. Someone mentioned on this forum that the first step would be moving a large watermain under Elm.

I'm sure the city will be seeking federal TIGER funds in the next round, whether its for the extension up the hill or for utility relocations or both. Pre-application deadline for the next round is this month.

We have to remember- there is not a $13 million dollar gap. Just because Tom Luken SAYS It's a $400 million project, doesn't make it one.

 

The Enquirer and BizCourrier report that Duke has never provided any breakdown of these magical "$18 million" in costs.

 

Until Duke provides a breakdown documenting the costs, it's fair to assume the City's

engineers/consultants came to the appropriate $ amount.

We have to remember- there is not a $13 million dollar gap. Just because Tom Luken SAYS It's a $400 million project, doesn't make it one.

 

The Enquirer and BizCourrier report that Duke has never provided any breakdown of these magical "$18 million" in costs.

 

Until Duke provides a breakdown documenting the costs, it's fair to assume the City's

engineers/consultants came to the appropriate $ amount.

 

Precisely.  If Duke is  embellishing the number for safety feet, why would the city immediately take their million dollar costs to heart? 

 

What would be the reasoning for Duke trying to mislead the city and the public.  They obviously are trying to prove something by Going on interview after interview in the city spewing the same nonsense that has been disproven.

That $25 million in copper stolen by Duke Energy employees would sure go a long way toward paying the cost of relocating those utilities for the streetcar.

That $25 million in copper stolen by Duke Energy employees would sure go a long way toward paying the cost of relocating those utilities for the streetcar.

 

Any organization that large is bound to have a few bad apples. Duke Energy is an important corporate citizen and partner with the City.

That $25 million in copper stolen by Duke Energy employees would sure go a long way toward paying the cost of relocating those utilities for the streetcar.

 

Any organization that large is bound to have a few bad apples. Duke Energy is an important corporate citizen and partner with the City.

  God Bless Duke Energy.  $25 million is pretty impressive for a corporation of any size, but particularly moreso since it involves bulky raw materials. Added parallel is that the alleged perpetrators were with the "underground utility" sector.  Regardless, the two issues are really...ahem...apples and oranges.

That $25 million in copper stolen by Duke Energy employees would sure go a long way toward paying the cost of relocating those utilities for the streetcar.

 

Any organization that large is bound to have a few bad apples. Duke Energy is an important corporate citizen and partner with the City.

  God Bless Duke Energy.  $25 million is pretty impressive for a corporation of any size, but particularly moreso since it involves bulky raw materials. Added parallel is that the alleged perpetrators were with the "underground utility" sector.  Regardless, the two issues are really...ahem...apples and oranges.

 

I see what you did there.

On the radio just now, Scott Sloan predicted that copper theives will steal the streetcar wire.  In the middle of the night, when it's not running, presumably.

 

Also, on Smitherman's show yesterday on 700, his guest, a preacher of some kind, whined about how the city manager "had no answers" at the meeting.  To here his account of the proceedings, Smitherman was totally in the right.  Then, this morning, Smitherman was on Brian Thomas's show.  I didn't hear the segment , but I did hear the lead-up, and Thomas was blowing a fuse over the Duke situation, taking that Duke PR person's word for it.

 

Also, to steal $25 million in stock is pretty tough to pull off.  You would most likely need someone on the supply side in on the game.  The way to do that is to duplicate orders but "forget" to invoice that duplicate.