March 14, 201213 yr I don't really see the Philly comparison. First off, Cincy isn't a very row-y city where Philly is nothing BUT rows. Also, Philly's historic areas are fluent in scale and typology whereas OTR offers more contrast from building to building. Parts of Old City in Philly might be a decent comp. for OTR, etc.
March 15, 201213 yr This is all very strong support for why I didn't go to law school, but can anyone confirm or deny that this is actually in the revised code? It is in the Ohio Revised Code. That means the streetcar is, according to state code, both a motor vehicle and not a motor vehicle. In other words, a bunch of dusty old bullshit.
March 15, 201213 yr This is all very strong support for why I didn't go to law school, but can anyone confirm or deny that this is actually in the revised code? It is in the Ohio Revised Code. That means the streetcar is, according to state code, both a motor vehicle and not a motor vehicle. In other words, a bunch of dusty old bullsh!t. Not a vehicle, not a motor vehicle, but perhaps a utility. Regardless of how the legalese there pans out, the fact remains that 8 feet is unprecedented and ridiculous. The city is willing to pay for 3 feet, so whether or not the city must pay (which would be a question in part answered by whether or not the streetcar is a utility) is moot. Edit: I have to wonder, though, if SORTA really counts as a "street railway company in the business of operating...", since that seems aimed at, well, businesses, and not governments.
March 15, 201213 yr No publicly-owned transit company in Ohio has built an in-street light rail or streetcar line. Cincinnati of course scrapped its entire system before public ownership, and Cleveland's RTA has not done any in-street expansion of its lines. So Ohio law probably has not caught up with the specifics of publicly owned transit companies constructing streetcar lines.
March 15, 201213 yr It may be relevant that the operating company is not actually building the infrastructure.
March 15, 201213 yr Ohio Revised Code 4501.01 specifically excludes streetcars from the definition of "motor vehicle." Ohio Revised Code 4905.03 A (10) explicitly states that streetcar companies are utilities. I don't know how this issue is going to play out, but I think it is very serious. There are still more utilities that we haven't heard from yet, at least publicly, and I think they are waiting to see what happens with Duke before they do anything.
March 15, 201213 yr ^I thought the other utilities signed off on 3 feet, like the rest of the country has.
March 15, 201213 yr Regardless of how the legalese there pans out, the fact remains that 8 feet is unprecedented and ridiculous. Who says 8 feet is ridiculous? Not Duke. "I've never heard of an unprovoked bear attack. But it's the bear, not you, who decides when he's provoked. Let's say, for example, that you want to be nice to a bear, so you start feeding him hotdogs. And some time later you decide to stop feeding him hotdogs and save some for yourself. The bear might consider that a serious provocation. He might insist on eating the rest, and he would use whatever force he thought necessary to get them." - Henry Heatwole
March 15, 201213 yr Who says 8 feet is ridiculous? Not Duke. Well, every other city in the country is apparently using 3 feet. And even <b>DUKE</b> is using 3 feet in North Carolina. They have yet to cite why they think Cincinnati needs nearly 3 times as much space. I know you like to play devil's advocate around here, but Duke appears to have been mistaken at best.
March 15, 201213 yr Regardless of how the legalese there pans out, the fact remains that 8 feet is unprecedented and ridiculous. Who says 8 feet is ridiculous? Not Duke. Precedent says 8 feet is ridiculous. The utility companies the Business Courier interviewed say 8 feet is ridiculous. Rational thought says 8 feet is ridiculous.
March 15, 201213 yr I don't really see the Philly comparison. First off, Cincy isn't a very row-y city where Philly is nothing BUT rows. Also, Philly's historic areas are fluent in scale and typology whereas OTR offers more contrast from building to building. Parts of Old City in Philly might be a decent comp. for OTR, etc. Philly is majority rows, and no I wasn't comparing the quantitiy, I was comparing the non-Federal styles. Still, Cincinnati has more rows than people think. Have you ever been to North Philadelphia? There are some areas that may remind you of Columbus.
March 15, 201213 yr ^If The West End and West Fourth weren't demolished, I think people would feel a little differently about a Philadelphia comparison.
March 15, 201213 yr This is all very strong support for why I didn't go to law school, but can anyone confirm or deny that this is actually in the revised code? It is in the Ohio Revised Code. That means the streetcar is, according to state code, both a motor vehicle and not a motor vehicle. In other words, a bunch of dusty old bullsh!t. "Motor-propelled vehicle." I linked to that section of Ohio Revised Code over a month ago, so I was shaking my head as soon as I glanced at the article that was linked. Jake is correct above though, that entire section of Ohio Revised Code is written to apply to private operators of streetcars. Later amended sections apply to publicly owned buses, but clearly state that streetcars or (motor-propelled vehicles) aren't covered.
March 15, 201213 yr Who says 8 feet is ridiculous? Not Duke. "I've never heard of an unprovoked bear attack. But it's the bear, not you, who decides when he's provoked. Let's say, for example, that you want to be nice to a bear, so you start feeding him hotdogs. And some time later you decide to stop feeding him hotdogs and save some for yourself. The bear might consider that a serious provocation. He might insist on eating the rest, and he would use whatever force he thought necessary to get them." - Henry Heatwole So, we never should have been nice to Duke in the first place?
March 15, 201213 yr Am I wrong here, or does Cincinnati "scream" Philadelphia when you look in certain neighborhoods? As far as St. Louis, the city is amazing, but I think Cincinnati's topography puts it a bit up on St. Louis when it comes to the overall historic atmosphere/feel/attractiveness to the city. Philly tends to be more lowrise, I'd say a good chunk of Newport KY screams South Philly in terms of urban typology. Cincy is closer to Hoboken or Brooklyn minus a few unique to NYC area building types like the 6 story late 1890s-1930s tenement buildings, though there is one in Coryville off Jefferson that everytime I pass it I think NYC Apartment Building (though I wouldn't be surprised if Cincy continue to grow like it did 1840-1870 in 1880-1930 that we'd see much more of those).
March 16, 201213 yr I know you like to play devil's advocate around here... I feel like I am the only one on this board that is not unrealistically optimistic. The streetcar project is NOT easy; at least not as easy as it's made out to be on this board. One of the issues is that Duke wants 8 feet. I'm sorry, but I don't think that accusing Duke of being unreasonable is going to make this issue go away.
March 16, 201213 yr I know you like to play devil's advocate around here... I feel like I am the only one on this board that is not unrealistically optimistic. The streetcar project is NOT easy; at least not as easy as it's made out to be on this board. One of the issues is that Duke wants 8 feet. I'm sorry, but I don't think that accusing Duke of being unreasonable is going to make this issue go away. Accusing Duke of being unreasonable is the ONLY thing that will make the issue go away. That will occur in negotiation, or in a court. You really need to learn how to solve problems, my man.
March 16, 201213 yr Regardless of how the legalese there pans out, the fact remains that 8 feet is unprecedented and ridiculous. Who says 8 feet is ridiculous? Not Duke. Just because someone is willing to say something doesn't mean a view is valid. I could tell you the earth is a flat cube, and the simple fact that I said it would not make the statement "not ridiculous."
March 16, 201213 yr I know you like to play devil's advocate around here... I feel like I am the only one on this board that is not unrealistically optimistic. The streetcar project is NOT easy; at least not as easy as it's made out to be on this board. One of the issues is that Duke wants 8 feet. I'm sorry, but I don't think that accusing Duke of being unreasonable is going to make this issue go away. The national standard is 3 feet. Duke is using 3 feet in its home market. Duke is insisting on 8 feet in Cincinnati without citing any evidence for the deviation from standard. Duke pulled out of negotiations with the city in a very public and incendiary way. I'm not accusing Duke of being unreasonable, that is the definition of unreasonable.
March 16, 201213 yr Just because someone is willing to say something doesn't mean a view is valid. I could tell you the earth is a flat cube, and the simple fact that I said it would not make the statement "not ridiculous." Exactly. I could claim that, for safety reasons, utilities need to be relocated 24 feet away from streetcar tracks. That doesn't mean my claim isn't ridiculous.
March 16, 201213 yr Author The Cincinnati Streetcar is now on Metro's Route Map- http://www.go-metro.com/riding-metro/maps-and-schedules
March 16, 201213 yr The Cincinnati Streetcar is now on Metro's Route Map- http://www.go-metro.com/riding-metro/maps-and-schedules Nice. I wonder if they will eventually give it a route number... or letter or color.
March 16, 201213 yr The Cincinnati Streetcar is now on Metro's Route Map- http://www.go-metro.com/riding-metro/maps-and-schedules Nice. I wonder if they will eventually give it a route number... or letter or color. I was wondering the same thing! Something like S1 or the Red line or something.
March 16, 201213 yr I think the "Red Line" would be perfect. Chicago's "Red Line" is known as one of the easiest and most useful transit lines for out-of-town visitors in Chicago to take and use. To top it off the "Red Line" in Boston was designed similarly to the Cincinnati Subway. And the streetcar serves the Reds stadium.
March 16, 201213 yr Author It should definitely be a color. Since the first line (in phases) is connecting Reds Stadium with UC, the redline would be the logical choice. Blue line for NKY (UK, River); Green line for whatever passes Eden Park first and Purple line for westside (elder)
March 16, 201213 yr It should definitely be a color. Since the first line (in phases) is connecting Reds Stadium with UC, the redline would be the logical choice. Blue line for NKY (UK, River); Green line for whatever passes Eden Park first and Purple line for westside (elder) That is perfect for placemaking and understand the travel patterns! I love it.
March 16, 201213 yr I think something will click in some people's minds when we start calling the streetcar "the red line" or something else. Something like, "oh, you mean there will be more lines?"
March 16, 201213 yr Blue line for NKY (UK, River) Correct color choice, but for the wrong reason. Kentucky's the Bluegrass State. No need to drag UK or the brown Ohio River into it. :-D
March 16, 201213 yr Blue line for NKY (UK, River) Correct color choice, but for the wrong reason. Kentucky's the Bluegrass State. No need to drag UK or the brown Ohio River into it. :-D This Louisville fan thanks you.
March 16, 201213 yr The Cincinnati Streetcar is now on Metro's Route Map- http://www.go-metro.com/riding-metro/maps-and-schedules This brings up the one thing about this project that I'm not very happy about...That is letting metro run the system. Can anyone make any sense of that map of downtown with all the bus routes and streetcar route drawn out? Its impossible to read! You can hardly even see the streetcar line in there. I just think of how easy its been for me in other cities to pick up a transit map (rail or bus) and quickly figure out how to get from point a to b. In Cincinnati, thats next to impossible. Our bus system needs a major overhauling of all the routes, stops, maps, website everything. Its the most user-unfriendly system I've ever seen. Just had to get that off my chest:)
March 16, 201213 yr The Cincinnati Streetcar is now on Metro's Route Map- http://www.go-metro.com/riding-metro/maps-and-schedules This brings up the one thing about this project that I'm not very happy about...That is letting metro run the system. Can anyone make any sense of that map of downtown with all the bus routes and streetcar route drawn out? Its impossible to read! You can hardly even see the streetcar line in there. I just think of how easy its been for me in other cities to pick up a transit map (rail or bus) and quickly figure out how to get from point a to b. In Cincinnati, thats next to impossible. Our bus system needs a major overhauling of all the routes, stops, maps, website everything. Its the most user-unfriendly system I've ever seen. Just had to get that off my chest:) I could not agree more. It's intimidating for those who have never used transit to try and figure it out. Ideally, I wish Metro and Tank would combine into one.
March 16, 201213 yr I think the majority of us agree that we'd be better served by a combined transit agency serving Greater Cincinnati and Northern Kentucky. But Metro's recent improvements, especially the new fare cards and Google Transit support, are HUGE.
March 16, 201213 yr ^Oh, without a doubt. I don't mean to sound overly negative or to knock Metro around, but in recent years they've gotten so much better. I've noticed the drivers are incredibly friendly and good about helping with questions. I do wish they had an easier transit map.
March 16, 201213 yr Cincinnati to host streetcar outreach for businesses Business Courier The city of Cincinnati is asking businesses interested in working on construction of the streetcar project to come to a meeting to learn about becoming registered as a “disadvantaged business enterprise.” The Cincinnati streetcar project team will host an outreach session on March 22 at 6 p.m. at the Duke Energy Convention Center in downtown Cincinnati. This free event will provide an update to contractors and other interested parties of the participation of small, disadvantaged, minority- and women-owned business enterprises, and minority and female workers on the project, outline the upcoming scheduled and encourage DBE certification. Cont "It's just fate, as usual, keeping its bargain and screwing us in the fine print..." - John Crichton
March 16, 201213 yr Metro has one of the worst transit maps to size of the operation ratios of anywhere in the world. Even New York City's bus maps for the outer boroughs, which are incredibly complex, are easier to read.
March 16, 201213 yr I think the majority of us agree that we'd be better served by a combined transit agency serving Greater Cincinnati and Northern Kentucky. But Metro's recent improvements, especially the new fare cards and Google Transit support, are HUGE. I just saw their new google map feature. That's definitely a big step up for them. I hadn't seen that yet. I don't mean to sound overly negative either. I just hope their service continues to improve for the sake of the project. There's a lot that still needs to change in the way that they run their routes. Especially with how their bus stops are laid out. There's no reason to have a bus stop every freaking block. I'd like to see them have fewer stops while at the same time making their actual stops a lot more visable and user friendly. For instance, they should have a route map for each bus that stops at that route that highlights exactly where each bus will go and stop. The majority of their stops now consist of little more than a 8X11" sign or an orange stripe on the phone poll. People should be able to walk a block or two to get to a real, properly labeled bus stop with a shelter to stand under and maps to look at. These are the basic things that need to be improved if they want to attract new riders and improve their service, especially for those who don't use the system daily. Again, in every other major city I've traveled (most recently Seattle, San Francisco, and NYC) bus stops have all the information you need to figure out where you need to go on that route. As a result, anyone can figure out which bus they need in a matter of seconds and feel confident getting on the bus when it arrives. I'm always so amazed at how easy it is to get around a city via their bus systems when I compare it to what I'm used to in Cincinnati. The first time I went to Seattle I was thrilled to be able to figure out how to get downtown from Bellevue within minutes of stepping out of our hotel and we were able to use the system all week to get pretty much everywhere we wanted to go. I was also amazed that all sorts of people used the bus system, it wasn't just for the poor, indigent population like it seems to be here. I want that sort of bus system here and I want to see it working in harmony with the streetcar system as well. There's no reason we can't have it. Otherwise I really fear the project will be at a major disadvantage compared to other cities with modern streetcar systems.
March 16, 201213 yr For everyone with ideas on how to improve Metro, go here and fill out their survey: http://t.co/JRxRxbkQ
March 16, 201213 yr I was also amazed that all sorts of people used the bus system, it wasn't just for the poor, indigent population like it seems to be here. That's because the only people who ride the bus system here are those who have no other choice. The improvements suggested by you and others would do a lot to change that.
March 17, 201213 yr Rail transit improves the image of all transit in a city. It's not long after rail goes in that support for the bus system increases greatly.
March 19, 201213 yr ^It's amazing how much higher an opinion people have of Rail Transit compared to bus. Myself included before I started using bus service around here. I'm planning a trip to Milwaukee and Chicago with some friends. We're using Amtrak and when we get to each city, I planned to use local transit to travel. In Chicago, they're all about using the subway, but when I mentioned that in Milwaukee we'd be using a bus they said "well we can just rent a car or get a cab if we need to." I think the streetcar will certainly help Metro/Tank ridership. Can't wait till this summer when I'll be taking the bike/Metro to work as part of my daily commute.
March 21, 201213 yr Paul Daugherty speaks logically about light rail in today's The Morning Line (TML) only ruin it all in his last sentence: ... "Annnd… light rail is great. I realize just how great every time I use it. Got from Logan Airport to within two blocks of my hotel yesterday, in 30 minutes, for 2 bucks. Got Cambridge for the another $2. No traffic, no parking hassles, no $40 cab rides. Two bucks. The bean counters will love me. We need light rail. And I dont mean trolleys." ... "It's just fate, as usual, keeping its bargain and screwing us in the fine print..." - John Crichton
March 21, 201213 yr Unfortunately, he's referring to the Boston subway as light rail and ignores the fact that they do in fact also have streetcars. oops.
March 21, 201213 yr Interesting what comes up in a Google alert... John Kiesewetter looks at vintage Cincinnati Transit/Metro/Streetcar signs in television and movies. "It's just fate, as usual, keeping its bargain and screwing us in the fine print..." - John Crichton
March 21, 201213 yr Unfortunately, he's referring to the Boston subway as light rail and ignores the fact that they do in fact also have streetcars. oops. Don't be a "transit snob"; when most folks think of light rail, they mean any rail transit that carries passengers and no freight.
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