Has anyone ever driven their car along the proposed routes while running video?

 

It would be really cool to get a real idea of what the views along will actually look like. Especially for those who are not really familiar with Cincy.

thanks!!

:wave:

 

 

 

CINCINNATI -- Nothing settled yet, no compromise in place so far, but Duke Energy says it continues to work to try to reach a resolution in its dispute with the city of Cincinnati over the streetcar project.

A spokesman for the utility tells News 5 a fact-finding trip to Atlanta has been scrapped.

 

Read more: http://www.wlwt.com/news/30802416/detail.html#ixzz1qdYmm5X5

 

The first three cpmments posted on that article are these:

 

1. Who pays? It all boils down to the taxpayer! Anytime there's a stymie concerning who pays for what, the taxpayer always pays.

 

2. I am a taxpayer. Mayor Mallory, no compromise please. 

 

3. Duke Energy, no compromise please.

 

 

The first three cpmments posted on that article are these:

 

1. Who pays? It all boils down to the taxpayer! Anytime there's a stymie concerning who pays for what, the taxpayer always pays.

 

2. I am a taxpayer. Mayor Mallory, no compromise please. 

 

3. Duke Energy, no compromise please.

 

1 and 3 are certainly not legal residents of Cincinnati. They're comments are the sound and fury of the powerless. Mallory can ignore them.

 

The first three cpmments posted on that article are these:

 

1. Who pays? It all boils down to the taxpayer! Anytime there's a stymie concerning who pays for what, the taxpayer always pays.

 

2. I am a taxpayer. Mayor Mallory, no compromise please. 

 

3. Duke Energy, no compromise please.

 

 

Which is why most of us come to Urban Ohio: more sophisticated, informed, and nuanced discussion.

 

The first three cpmments posted on that article are these:

 

1. Who pays? It all boils down to the taxpayer! Anytime there's a stymie concerning who pays for what, the taxpayer always pays.

 

2. I am a taxpayer. Mayor Mallory, no compromise please. 

 

3. Duke Energy, no compromise please.

 

The Enquirer could write an article about how banning Nic Cage movies can cure cancer and people would still complain.  In fact, 700wlw would say your freedom to get cancer is being taken away

1 and 3 are certainly not legal residents of Cincinnati. They're comments are the sound and fury of the powerless. Mallory can ignore them.

 

I think you are mistaken. Duke is a very powerful organization.

 

It's funny that you used the word "powerless" because ironically, regardless of the utility relocation issue, the Cincinnati Streetcar project is absolutely dependent on Duke for electric power, unless Mayor Mallory wants to build his own plant.

I don't see the connection. Duke can be powerful and the commentors can be non-cincinnatians. They are two different issues. Mallory only has to have the support of cincinnati voters so he can negociate with Duke from a position of strength. Are you suggesting that duke would refuse to sell electricity to cincinnati to power a completed streetcar line out of spite? That seems inconceivable. This isn't South America or Russia where such petty power ploys are common practice.

1 and 3 are certainly not legal residents of Cincinnati. They're comments are the sound and fury of the powerless. Mallory can ignore them.

 

I think you are mistaken. Duke is a very powerful organization.

 

It's funny that you used the word "powerless" because ironically, regardless of the utility relocation issue, the Cincinnati Streetcar project is absolutely dependent on Duke for electric power, unless Mayor Mallory wants to build his own plant.

 

This makes no sense.  Are you saying that commenters 1 and 3 are Duke Energy representatives? 

Are you suggesting that duke would refuse to sell electricity to cincinnati to power a completed streetcar line out of spite? That seems inconceivable.

 

No, I don't think that Duke would refuse to sell electricity out of spite. They have already pubically stated that they support the streetcar. But, let's just say that there has already been a lot of animosity generated over the streetcar project, and on one hand Duke is being scolded for being "unreasonable" while on the other hand Duke support is absolutely necessary to provide electric power.

Duke support is absolutely necessary to provide electric power.

 

What does that even mean if not that there is some chance Duke would refuse to supply power? Which is completely absurd. Unlike most businesses, power companies cannot refuse customers. Imagine how the courts would rule if Duke decided they would not supply power to, say, you, because they didn't like the addition you made to your house or something.

I'm saying commentors 1 and 3 are two random non-cincinnatians taking yet another opportunity to indulge in their favored activity of attacking the city of Cincinnnati and have no connection to duke of any kind and can thus be ignored. Eighth and state brought up the totally unrelated issue of duke's negociations with cincinnati, not me. Duke doesn't have a choice about supplying electrical power to the city of cincinnati, whether they like it or not. The issue is payment for moving utility lines, not supplying electricity to users. As a utility they'd have to provide power and they'd want another large customer. No one's likes, dislikes, support or opposition to streetcars matter. Mallory has nothing to lose in these negociations while duke has to calculate the potential of a lawsuit, loss of future large customer for their electricityk and of bad publicity against the cost of relocating the utilities. Duke hadn't even tried to pretend that any of this is otherwise. Mallory realizes this. That is why he is playing his hand the way he is.

I'm saying commentors 1 and 3 are two random non-cincinnatians taking yet another opportunity to indulge in their favored activity of attacking the city of Cincinnnati and have no connection to duke of any kind and can thus be ignored. Eighth and state brought up the totally unrelated issue of duke's negociations with cincinnati, not me. Duke doesn't have a choice about supplying electrical power to the city of cincinnati, whether they like it or not. The issue is payment for moving utility lines, not supplying electricity to users. As a utility they'd have to provide power and they'd want another large customer. No one's likes, dislikes, support or opposition to streetcars matter. Mallory has nothing to lose in these negociations while duke has to calculate the potential of a lawsuit, loss of future large customer for their electricityk and of bad publicity against the cost of relocating the utilities. Duke hadn't even tried to pretend that any of this is otherwise. Mallory realizes this. That is why he is playing his hand the way he is.

 

Those commentors could have been Duke stockholders. Corporate America is extremely sensitive to stockholders, comparable to how government is sensitive to voters. If public perception is that Duke is using stockholder's assets to subsidize the utility relocation for Cincinnati Streetcar project, then Duke's stock price could be negatively affected. Duke will likely do anything it can to protect its stock price, and that includes playing hardball with the City of Cincinnati.

 

I'm not 100% certain that Duke would be obligated to provide power in this instance. If you think Duke doesn't have a choice, I would like to see documentation for that.  I think Duke and the City of Cincinnati have special contracts for street lighting and things like that, and at the minimum the sale of power for the streetcar would probably be negotiated.

 

There IS something that Mallory has to lose, and that is goodwill with Duke. Suppose that Mallory is working with Joe the Duke utility coordinator, and Joe the utility coordinator is publicly accused of being "unreasonable" with regard to the 8 foot separation thing. Suppose that they negotiate, or go to court, or whatever, and Mallory wins. Now, suppose that Mallory wants to hook up the streetcar to the Duke grid, and Joe the utility coordinator is the man assigned to do the job. Do you think that Joe the utility coordinator is going to go out of his way to make Mallory look good?

 

A bad relationship with Duke could delay this project by a year or more, assuming that it does in fact actually get built. The Duke issue is very important. My humble opinion is that playing hardball isn't going to make things better.  I don't think that Duke is scared one bit at a lawsuit from the City of Cincinnati.

 

^Honestly how do you know this?

Playing hardball is not good for Duke or the city. They are both stuck with each other, and it's in their best interests to maintain a healthy relationship. This is why we've seen Duke step back from their earlier aggression.

It doesn't matter who they are or what their motives are. This is a business deal, not charity, and will be decided on cost/benefit analysis. This isn't russia or the mafia. You seem to imagine a city in which personal loyalties and middle eastern style vendettas guide human affairs. Duke will never refuse to sell electricity to anyone. Its their sole reason for being. Mallory has nothing to lose and everything to gain. If duke stonewalls, mallory goes to the lawyers and duke has even less control of the process than it does now. It is misguided to suggest that anything other than cost will matter to duke or that anything mallory does with duke directly will speed things up. The 'process' is duke trying to figure out how to avoid the cost and mallory trying to make them look bad or incure expenses or other liabilities while doing so. They will continue the "process" until the costs of continuing become greater than the cost of accepting a deal. No goodwill, cooperation, sharing, or any other kind of niceness is involved or even relevant. The final numbers that appear on corporate and municipal balance sheets are all that matters. 'Goodwill' and'relationships' are irrelevant. Any attempt to gain or maintain them by Mallory would be beside the point. Only hardball, however they publicly portray their negociations, has any hope of working.

^ Not to be a jerk, but it's 'negotiations', not 'negociations'.

As a side note, i recently read that SORTA is currently applying for federal funds to create a BRT line from near Kenwood to downtown past Xavier following Montgomery to Gilbert

 

Someone earlier was mentioning the Montgomery corridor as a possible streetcar line.

I'm saying commentors 1 and 3 are two random non-cincinnatians taking yet another opportunity to indulge in their favored activity of attacking the city of Cincinnnati and have no connection to duke of any kind and can thus be ignored. Eighth and state brought up the totally unrelated issue of duke's negociations with cincinnati, not me. Duke doesn't have a choice about supplying electrical power to the city of cincinnati, whether they like it or not. The issue is payment for moving utility lines, not supplying electricity to users. As a utility they'd have to provide power and they'd want another large customer. No one's likes, dislikes, support or opposition to streetcars matter. Mallory has nothing to lose in these negociations while duke has to calculate the potential of a lawsuit, loss of future large customer for their electricityk and of bad publicity against the cost of relocating the utilities. Duke hadn't even tried to pretend that any of this is otherwise. Mallory realizes this. That is why he is playing his hand the way he is.

 

Those commentors could have been Duke stockholders. Corporate America is extremely sensitive to stockholders, comparable to how government is sensitive to voters. If public perception is that Duke is using stockholder's assets to subsidize the utility relocation for Cincinnati Streetcar project, then Duke's stock price could be negatively affected. Duke will likely do anything it can to protect its stock price, and that includes playing hardball with the City of Cincinnati.

 

I'm not 100% certain that Duke would be obligated to provide power in this instance. If you think Duke doesn't have a choice, I would like to see documentation for that.  I think Duke and the City of Cincinnati have special contracts for street lighting and things like that, and at the minimum the sale of power for the streetcar would probably be negotiated.

 

There IS something that Mallory has to lose, and that is goodwill with Duke. Suppose that Mallory is working with Joe the Duke utility coordinator, and Joe the utility coordinator is publicly accused of being "unreasonable" with regard to the 8 foot separation thing. Suppose that they negotiate, or go to court, or whatever, and Mallory wins. Now, suppose that Mallory wants to hook up the streetcar to the Duke grid, and Joe the utility coordinator is the man assigned to do the job. Do you think that Joe the utility coordinator is going to go out of his way to make Mallory look good?

 

A bad relationship with Duke could delay this project by a year or more, assuming that it does in fact actually get built. The Duke issue is very important. My humble opinion is that playing hardball isn't going to make things better.  I don't think that Duke is scared one bit at a lawsuit from the City of Cincinnati.

 

 

This one is a concern troll magnum opus.

^ Please lay off, Civvik.  (Some of us are interested in what he says.)

As a side note, i recently read that SORTA is currently applying for federal funds to create a BRT line from near Kenwood to downtown past Xavier following Montgomery to Gilbert

 

Someone earlier was mentioning the Montgomery corridor as a possible streetcar line.

  If this be true, it would be a shot in the arm!  Such planning was a part of the 2002 "MetroMoves" that our suburban naysayers and NIMBYs so readily shot down. (thank you, Stephan Louis)  It's almost too much to hope for now...

fun fact about Metro Moves, the first rail line to be built was a modern streetcar traveling almost exactly the Phase 1 route but with extensions to NKY and UC

I'm saying commentors 1 and 3 are two random non-cincinnatians taking yet another opportunity to indulge in their favored activity of attacking the city of Cincinnnati and have no connection to duke of any kind and can thus be ignored. Eighth and state brought up the totally unrelated issue of duke's negociations with cincinnati, not me. Duke doesn't have a choice about supplying electrical power to the city of cincinnati, whether they like it or not. The issue is payment for moving utility lines, not supplying electricity to users. As a utility they'd have to provide power and they'd want another large customer. No one's likes, dislikes, support or opposition to streetcars matter. Mallory has nothing to lose in these negociations while duke has to calculate the potential of a lawsuit, loss of future large customer for their electricityk and of bad publicity against the cost of relocating the utilities. Duke hadn't even tried to pretend that any of this is otherwise. Mallory realizes this. That is why he is playing his hand the way he is.

 

Those commentors could have been Duke stockholders. Corporate America is extremely sensitive to stockholders, comparable to how government is sensitive to voters. If public perception is that Duke is using stockholder's assets to subsidize the utility relocation for Cincinnati Streetcar project, then Duke's stock price could be negatively affected. Duke will likely do anything it can to protect its stock price, and that includes playing hardball with the City of Cincinnati.

 

I'm not 100% certain that Duke would be obligated to provide power in this instance. If you think Duke doesn't have a choice, I would like to see documentation for that.  I think Duke and the City of Cincinnati have special contracts for street lighting and things like that, and at the minimum the sale of power for the streetcar would probably be negotiated.

 

There IS something that Mallory has to lose, and that is goodwill with Duke. Suppose that Mallory is working with Joe the Duke utility coordinator, and Joe the utility coordinator is publicly accused of being "unreasonable" with regard to the 8 foot separation thing. Suppose that they negotiate, or go to court, or whatever, and Mallory wins. Now, suppose that Mallory wants to hook up the streetcar to the Duke grid, and Joe the utility coordinator is the man assigned to do the job. Do you think that Joe the utility coordinator is going to go out of his way to make Mallory look good?

 

A bad relationship with Duke could delay this project by a year or more, assuming that it does in fact actually get built. The Duke issue is very important. My humble opinion is that playing hardball isn't going to make things better.  I don't think that Duke is scared one bit at a lawsuit from the City of Cincinnati.

 

 

This one is a concern troll magnum opus.

 

I don't speak this particular lingo. What does "concern troll magnu opus" mean? Does it mean that someone has a legitimate point or not?

I'm saying commentors 1 and 3 are two random non-cincinnatians taking yet another opportunity to indulge in their favored activity of attacking the city of Cincinnnati and have no connection to duke of any kind and can thus be ignored. Eighth and state brought up the totally unrelated issue of duke's negociations with cincinnati, not me. Duke doesn't have a choice about supplying electrical power to the city of cincinnati, whether they like it or not. The issue is payment for moving utility lines, not supplying electricity to users. As a utility they'd have to provide power and they'd want another large customer. No one's likes, dislikes, support or opposition to streetcars matter. Mallory has nothing to lose in these negociations while duke has to calculate the potential of a lawsuit, loss of future large customer for their electricityk and of bad publicity against the cost of relocating the utilities. Duke hadn't even tried to pretend that any of this is otherwise. Mallory realizes this. That is why he is playing his hand the way he is.

 

Those commentors could have been Duke stockholders. Corporate America is extremely sensitive to stockholders, comparable to how government is sensitive to voters. If public perception is that Duke is using stockholder's assets to subsidize the utility relocation for Cincinnati Streetcar project, then Duke's stock price could be negatively affected. Duke will likely do anything it can to protect its stock price, and that includes playing hardball with the City of Cincinnati.

 

 

 

 

I'm sorry, I can't let this slide.  Are you suggesting that these people are Duke stockholders, and that they believe the best way to voice their concerns to Duke is by commenting on a newspaper article? 

 

I agree (to some extent) that companies are responsive to shareholder concerns (but that is with the big caveat that it depends on a lot of factors, including the size of the shareholder's stake in the company).  But I cannot agree that this would in any way reflect a dialogue between Duke and its shareholders.  If the shareholders want to complain to Duke about it so their concern could be heard, they will go to the investor relations department and do so. 

Utilities, because they are defined as utilities under the law, cannot deny service under anything other than extraordinary circumstances.  This has long been the law in order to prevent businessmen from cutting backroom deals to undermine competitors.  It also prevents troublemakers like Chris Smitherman from having the power shut off at a streetcar construction site, etc.  So any speculation that Duke might deny Cincinnati electric service for the streetcar is a total waste of time. 

 

But it is worth mentioning that railroads were once regulated somewhat like utilities by the ICC.  Even now, they are not able to abandon and sell tracks without going through a federal approval process.  This prevents them from being paid off to abandon tracks that serve a competitor of an ill-intentioned party.

 

Airlines were also regulated like a utility until the late 1970s.  This kept them from consolidating operations in just a handful of major cities and kept some mid-sized cities from gaining unfair advantages over others.  We had an unfair advantage for 15~ years here, but the lights have been shut off here while similar-sized metros like Charlotte benefit from hub service.  If airlines were re-regulated, air travel would become slightly more expensive, but would be higher quality and more predictable for businesses over the long-term.   

^ Please lay off, Civvik.  (Some of us are interested in what he says.)

 

I am sure Eighth And State is a very nice and interesting person. So if you want to listen to pure speculation, only a fraction of which is informed or validated by professional experience, then by all means continue to be interested. You're not wasting my time doing it, so be my guest.

 

 

Shareholders are one thing but mutual fund managers are something completely different. Most stocks are held in mutual funds, so if some cranky outer-ring suburbanite with 10 loose shares of their own sells their shares because Duke struck a deal with the city to make the streetcar happen, so what? A mutual fund manager that's on top of things will come along and say, "Mmm, I saw that other towns have seen a lot of people move in near those rail lines like they have here near my town, New York City. Duke is posed to pick up some customers. I'm going to buy thousands of shares for my clients when I rebalance later this year."

^ No hard feelings, Civvik, but please allow these dialogues to play out.  I often feel the same way you do about various threads (for example, the virtually endless, inane babble on the Trayvon Martin thread), but I've learned to back off and let it go.

I don't mind Eighth & State going off the handle with his crazy rants. But at the same time there's nothing wrong with Civvik calling a spade a spade...

At the Streetcar special hearing last month Mallory acknowledged that Duke is a partner with the city and that partnerships sometimes have disagreements on some issues. This issue is not something that will make or break the streetcar. Who cares whether or not those commenters on the WLWT website were shareholders are not? Does that make their viewpoints somehow more legitimate? Do they get to vote on everything Duke does? Should they oppose the Charlotte streetcar and light rail just as much as they oppose the Cincinnati streetcar? Take a step back, a deep breath and look at the bigger picture. The city and Duke are still working it out, they don't need to go to DC because all they really needed to do was go to Portland, Seattle and their own backyard, which they did. They've seen enough. They'll make money on this thing too, they just disagree with how much. Sheesh!

I am sure Eighth And State is a very nice and interesting person.

 

Thanks for that.

 

The reason I brought up the two comments, "Mayor Mallory, no compromise, please," and "Duke, no compromise, please," was to demonstrate that there are two sides to the Duke controversy. I admit that a single post on a message board means almost nothing, yet politicians and corporate America pay attention to such things as a sample of public opinion. Someone took that time to post that comment, and this tells me that in the public relations battle, Duke has it's supporters just as the streetcar does.

 

The other point that I was trying to make is that laws regulating utilities, the rates they charge, and who can or can't be protected are complicated. I know that public utilities are regulated by PUCO, the Public Utilities Commission of Ohio, but beyond that it is over my head. The more I know, the more I find out I don't know. Nothing is simple in construction. Always expect complications.

 

I thnk it's safe to say that Duke's cooperation is absolutely necessary, both to relocate existing utilities in the street and also to provide electric power. In the event that Duke is sued by the City of Cincnnati, I don't think Duke is going to bend over backwards to help the City construct the streetcar project. Even if they are ulitimately legally obligated to relocate the utilities and to supply power, they may choose to take their own sweet time to get it done. No matter what happens with the infamous 8 feet of clearance, Duke absolutely has to be treated with respect for this project to be successful. Grudge matches benefit neither party.

 

 

This isn't related to the Streetcar, but is interesting from a historical and legal perspective, and demonstrates not only the games that people play, but the nerdy stuff that I read.

 

"After attempts by the independent management to settle the rate controversy with the City of Cincinnati by direct negotiations failed, the Company began active prosecution of the cases before the Public Utilities Commission of Ohio. During the hearings in the gas case, the Company proved to the satisfaction of the Commission that an emergency existed, as a result of which the Commission established an interim gas rate...

 

...It established a precedent that the Commission's approval of the emergency rate was upheld by the Supreme Court of Ohio...These orders of the Commission were also sustained by the Supreme Court of Ohio...

 

Within a matter of days after receiving the Commission's orders, the City again passed new two-year ordinaces containing gas and electric rates practically identical with those prescribed in its previous ordinances which had been ruled unreasonably low by the Commission. These 1948 ordinances were, in turn, appealed to the Public Utilities Commission, which, after hearings, again ruled that the City's rates should be set aside. Ultimately, the City acquiesced in the judgement of the Commission, and rate litigation ended."

 

- The CG&E Story

Duke will never agree to anything since they will lose more than they gain on the short time horizon that stock-held businesses operate on today. Thus, since they have nothing to gain from a deal, they will never agree to anything. That leaves only a lawsuit, or the threat of one, or money from some third source to make it happen. No genuine voluntary "deal' between duke and cincinnati is in duke's interests. i'm not saying that mallory should be confrontational, I'm just saying he should accept the fundamental interests of each party and cut to the chase. Nothing personal, this is business.

 

On a separate note, I must confess I just can't understand why someone would be so interested in chronicling a project they are convinced can never work. The german word, Shadenfreunde; taking pleasure in the misfortunes of others, may explain it.

Duke will never agree to anything since they will lose more than they gain on the short time horizon that stock-held businesses operate on today. Thus, since they have nothing to gain from a deal, they will never agree to anything. That leaves only a lawsuit, or the threat of one, or money from some third source to make it happen. No genuine voluntary "deal' between duke and cincinnati is in duke's interests. i'm not saying that mallory should be confrontational, I'm just saying he should accept the fundamental interests of each party and cut to the chase. Nothing personal, this is business.

 

This is once again pure speculation. Last time I checked, in business and in government you don't jump to conclusions and use the nuclear option when negotiations are still on the table. Also I'd really like to know how replacing aged electrical and gas infrastructure is not in Duke's best interest since no legitimate findings were provided to back up the above argument.

 

 

Duke will never agree to anything since they will lose more than they gain on the short time horizon that stock-held businesses operate on today. Thus, since they have nothing to gain from a deal, they will never agree to anything. That leaves only a lawsuit, or the threat of one, or money from some third source to make it happen. No genuine voluntary "deal' between duke and cincinnati is in duke's interests. i'm not saying that mallory should be confrontational, I'm just saying he should accept the fundamental interests of each party and cut to the chase. Nothing personal, this is business.

 

This is once again pure speculation. Last time I checked, in business and in government you don't jump to conclusions and use the nuclear option when negotiations are still on the table. Also I'd really like to know how replacing aged electrical and gas infrastructure is not in Duke's best interest since no legitimate findings were provided to back up the above argument.

 

Much written here is similarly speculative. You shouldn't ignore the inherent interests of anyone. The PR interests of both sides mean we'll never know how these negotiations proceeded, but knowing what is in each side's interests is a good guide to the possibilities. You're right to point out that duke has something to gain here, but they also have something to lose; 20 something million dollars we are told. I don't know what "legitimate findings" are outside of a controlled scientific study or legal proceeding, but acknowledging the interests of each side is not suggesting a "nuclear option", Its just realism.

Yeah the difference though is that the options from your previous post are alluded to as the only options when they are not. There are still plenty of avenues left to reach an agreement both sides can live with. This is similar to Eminent Domain, its a tool of last resort but you don't start out a negotiation saying, "Oh hey we're just going to take your land because we can." There's a process, and ED is typically an option that shuts down any hope of negotiation. Similarly, lawsuits and court cases are tools of last resort. If the City or Duke said, "Okay, we'll take you to court," right off the bat, I doubt we'd see any fact finding missions or negotiations, only endless posturing and more negative media.

So I noticed some construction going on around downtown last night. It was about 11 PM, my friend and I were out shooting photos. Someone mentioned earlier that they had removed trees along E 5th St. on Fountain Square (right where the streetcar display was). I gotta say it looks barren and I imagined this is where a stop would go IF the route still turned here, but since it's going to 2nd Street now, is this tree removal streetcar related?

 

Also, I can't remember which, but while crossing one of the FWW bridges to 2nd, there was a lot of torn up planters and sidewalks with markings all over the ground. Anyone have any idea if that is streetcar related also?

 

I seem to remember (either on here or in person), someone mentioning to me that construction would start at two different points. Can anyone clarify?

It is only the credible threat of a lawsuit that makes a deal possible. Without it duke wouldn't even bother with any streetcar negotiations. It is the elephant in the room. Whether mallory makes good on the threat of a lawsuit or not, it is the only thing that is keeping duke in the room. I will admit that this is a "nuclear" situation in one sense. Just like a nuclear power has to maintain the belief that it is willing to use its nuclear weapons, mallory has to make duke believe that he is willing to use a lawsuit to keep duke in the negotiation, while he has to do everything he can to prevent it from actually happening. I'm not arguing that mallory "go nuclear' but I am arguing that he think as the leader of a nuclear power. What duke has to "gain" is avoiding a lawsuit. We may think that new utility lines and a large new customer are potential benefits, but duke clearly doesn't. Corporate short-termism won't let it. Duke isn't a local utility and can dismiss the individual interests of any one of its markets or customers. That is why large corporations exist; to be less vulnerable to the fortunes of one customer or market. The only way mallory can win this david and goliath struggle is to at least "think nuclear". Would any of us care about north korea if they didn't play the nuclear card? The new economy is brutally competitive and confrontational, but we can't win if we don't try. I'm glad to say that I think mallory understands all of this. His many distant travels have shown him what cincinnati is up against and he is trying to play the cards he has. Old models of community building and consensus corporatism are truly gone.

^I still don't see how the relationship between two countries that are still technically at war with each other and the streetcar negotiations that are between two organizations that share many common interests and agreements. Its apples and oranges because one situation is obviously more severe than the other. And what you've continued to advocate are "severe" reactions to a problem that requires diplomacy.

 

 

So I noticed some construction going on around downtown last night. It was about 11 PM, my friend and I were out shooting photos. Someone mentioned earlier that they had removed trees along E 5th St. on Fountain Square (right where the streetcar display was). I gotta say it looks barren and I imagined this is where a stop would go IF the route still turned here, but since it's going to 2nd Street now, is this tree removal streetcar related?

I've seen Evans Landscaping cutting down and replacing tress around Fountain Square. Doubt this is Streetcar related.

 

Also, I can't remember which, but while crossing one of the FWW bridges to 2nd, there was a lot of torn up planters and sidewalks with markings all over the ground. Anyone have any idea if that is streetcar related also?

Just posted a pic on the Fort Washington Way Cap Project thread. I'm speculating it's for bridge maintenance.

Walk softly and carry a big stick. That is the kind of diplomacy that works when no other common interests exist. The only common interests duke and mallory have is not making each other look bad to their shareholders and voters respectively. Duke couldn't care less if streetcars ever happen and mallory couldn't care less if duke goes bankrupt. In each case the other would continue to be just fine. Duke would save spending money on new utilities in the first situation and cincinnati's utilities would simply be bought by another company in the second. Diplomacy isn't just another word for cooperation. It's a process of reconciling the irreconcilable. If it wasn't irreconcilable, diplomacy wouldn't be necessary in the first place. Mallory's and Duke's interests are fundamentally irreconcilable. This isn't a win/win. It's a win/lose.

 

The modern economy IS increasingly "severe." But my drawing attention to that fact doesn't hurt anyone. In fact, it is necessary to acknowledge the nature of each party's interests in order to achieve a lasting result.

^ If Duke were to compromise on the 8-foot requirement, they could get much of their infrastructure upgrades paid for, and the streetcar budget would not have to be inflated. Sounds like win-win to me.

^ If Duke were to compromise on the 8-foot requirement, they could get much of their infrastructure upgrades paid for, and the streetcar budget would not have to be inflated. Sounds like win-win to me.

 

Why haven't they then? And who would pay for it even if they did? Would they split the cost? That would be a partial win/partial lose scenario. Things happen for reasons even if we can't see what those reasons are.

Duke is moving utilities along Colerain for street widening. City is not paying for the movement of utilities. Why isn't COAST mad?

Are you talking about the section by Interstate 74? There is a MSD project ongoing there to alleviate chronic flooding and CSO issues, and to construct missing ramps at the US 27/Beekman/I-74 interchange. It involves the relocation of several streets that has mostly been completed, and the selling of ODOT land that was for the Colerain Expressway back to the city for redevelopment. The utility relocation is part of the ODOT project.

I'm talking about the widening of Colerain between Virginia & Leeper in Northside.

Information on that project can be found here: http://www.cincinnati-oh.gov/transeng/downloads/transeng_eps36982.pdf

 

It's that part of Colerain Avenue's improvements, phase two.

 

Another project along Colerain is the Northside Arterial Project: http://www.cincinnati-oh.gov/transeng/pages/-7173-/

 

Both are ODOT projects.

So is ODOT paying the full cost of moving the utilities 8 feet from all vehicular traffic for safety?

 

I still don't get their argument. I heard their top PR guy on 700WLW saying workers needed to be 8 feet away so they don't get hit by a giant multi ton vehicle.

 

I drove within inches of a Duke workers head YESTERDAY.