Today's Enquirer had a nice headline:

 

 

The reversed skyline is driving me crazy. Can you believe they would print that?

"The reversed skyline is driving me crazy. Can you believe they would print that?"

 

Don't let the perfect be the enemy of the good.

There's no point in cheating.

 

That hasn't stopped someone, judging by the latest results.

 

You ain't kidding. Now over 62,000 votes...

Maybe the streetcar riders of Toronto are finally taking their revenge after years of juvenile taunting by Mark Miller on Twitter.

The rendering is horrible, before the reversed skyline is considered.  It makes it look like a joke, like this isn't really happening.

 

This morning *former* city councilwoman Amy Murray was on 550 whining some more about the streetcar, and the green roof.  So despite the Enquirer gets worse and worse, it is still driving what other media cover. 

I've ridden the Zaragoza stock, the UOsphere should love them.  They will be easier to enter and exit than Amsterdam's CAF stock.

 

Jmecklenborg,

 

With cars, you can just zip around the corner if you make a mistake.  The public has been confused into believing that the ability to circle a city block in under 2 minutes diminishes the necessity for sound planning, as if the people doing the planning aren't being compensated handsomely to deplete taxpayer funds.  MLK has to be the most damaging of all Cincinnati's unnattural parkways/boulevards.  I cringe every time I hit the intersection of MLK and Victory and see nothing but open cornerspace, big-box office plots and an eggshell ranch home at the artificial dead end of Chapel street.

I thought it was a perfectly nice article, honestly, coming from the Enquirer.

 

The city released the renderings with the reversed skyline. The Enquirer could have picked the other image and flipped it so the skyline was in the right direction, and still had the streetcar facing the article, but nobody here expects that level of initiative from them.

 

 

If you don't like the rendering then please create a new one. I would love to see someone create their own images of the streetcar passing DT/OTR sites like the ones done with the United Streetcar design years ago

^yes the 1234 are backwards

and fixed

 

If you don't like the rendering then please create a new one. I would love to see someone create their own images of the streetcar passing DT/OTR sites like the ones done with the United Streetcar design years ago

 

Why don't you give it a shot, ryanlammi?

The rendering is horrible, before the reversed skyline is considered.  It makes it look like a joke, like this isn't really happening.

 

This morning *former* city councilwoman Amy Murray was on 550 whining some more about the streetcar, and the green roof.  So despite the Enquirer gets worse and worse, it is still driving what other media cover. 

 

the rendering printed in the Enquirer was the one PROVIDED by the city.

 

http://cincinnati-oh.gov/city/downloads/city_pdf45422.pdf

with a couple of touch ups

 

Every time there is a release from the city, people find something to complain or nitpick about.

 

Im jealous of how sleek looking a vehicle will be cruising the streets of OTR and downtown. Ive looked at the European trams for a few years thinking, why hasn't someone contracted to have them built here. They look sooooo nice.

 

Kudos to Cincinnati for taking this leap and raising the bar for other cities.

 

Nothing against the USC design, they are nice, but this kicks Portland's ass as far as cool looking vehicles go

Today's Enquirer had a nice headline:

 

 

The reversed skyline is driving me crazy. Can you believe they would print that?

 

It's a rendering dude, from where it would be *photographed* anyways the streetcar would be running in the river.

 

All the crap the Enquirer prints and THIS is what drives you crazy?

Thanks to whoever posted those videos from Seville, Spain.  We see that walkers and bicycles are very comfortable around these vehicles.  It should be noted, however, that Spanish law differs significantly from US law with regards to slip & fall lawsuits -- in short there is hardly such a thing in Spain.  The symptoms of this are everywhere in Spain -- the Running of the Bulls in Pamplona is the most obvious example, but also people commonly climb lamp posts/flag poles to view parades and other stuff that doesn't happen here. 

 

 

It's a rendering dude, from where it would be *photographed* anyways the streetcar would be running in the river.

 

Exactly.  It's also missing the tail end of the vehicle beyond the back door.  The point is to give people an idea of what the vehicle looks like; it doesn't have to be perfect.

This isn't the first time I've seen the skyline depicted backwards by the Enquirer or other organizations.  Some people honestly may believe that having the Scripps featured more prominently makes the skyline look more intimidating.  They actually might think they're doing the City's image and the project being examined a favor.  Just a thought.

I've heard Tom Luken is going nuts that the company is Spanish and not uhmerican. He seems to ignore the fact they are assembled in Elmira NY and that most of the bridges his driver takes him over are made with Chinese steel.

I've heard Tom Luken is going nuts that the company is Spanish and not uhmerican. He seems to ignore the fact they are assembled in Elmira NY and that most of the bridges his driver takes him over are made with Chinese steel.

 

And most of the components made in his American car (I'm assuming its American!) are made outside the USA.

Luken probably goes crazy when he forgets where he lives each day. Let the sad old fool die in peace.

And most of the components made in his American car (I'm assuming its American!) are made outside the USA.

I don't think they let him drive anymore. When he forgot about a TV interview awhile ago, producers called him & he said he couldn't get a ride to the station.

altho he has a bus stop right outside his condo (for the help) & the station is on a bus line & he sat on the SORTA board for years - he couldn't get a ride.....

I've heard Tom Luken is going nuts that the company is Spanish and not uhmerican. He seems to ignore the fact they are assembled in Elmira NY and that most of the bridges his driver takes him over are made with Chinese steel.

 

And most of the components made in his American car (I'm assuming its American!) are made outside the USA.

 

A lot of the motors for electric trains are made at the Siemens plant in Norwood.

Luken probably goes crazy when he forgets where he lives each day. Let the sad old fool die in peace.

 

Ouch!

with a couple of touch ups

 

 

NEEDS MOAR SWOOSH

 

 

Metro

 

 

Who Dey!

 

^ Nice shooping.

The Who Dey version is sweeeeeeeeet.

We talked about painting the streetcars with local team color schemes about...250 pages ago.  I think this would go a long way toward appeasing the sports bar crowd.  At the very least, the cars should have different colors.  If you have been to Portland or Seattle, each streetcar has a different color, which gives the line much more of a face than one would expect. 

 

During the graffiti era in NYC, people remarked about how thrilling the arrival of each train was since each had its own personality.  Now, variety on the NYC subway is limited pretty much to the money train, the garbage train, and the one day each year when they run a 1920's-era train in revenue service for a few hours. 

Im for advertising on it.  I saw one with Chipotle on it. It didn't look tacky. It will  help offset operating costs.

Somewhere out there tr City has already Posted operating revenue sources. Pretty sure advertising was a couple hundred thousand, no idea how much of that is interior versus exterior.

 

Also, I love those mock ups! Great work.

 

Why don't you give it a shot, ryanlammi?

 

I'm not great at photoshopping, but I'm glad others are. The whole background skyline doesn't really bother me and I understand that its just a rendering. I just thought that if other people were so upset with it they could just create their own images.

 

In reference to the ads, I really hope there are not ads on the outside of the streetcars. I think ads on the inside (like Metro's current bus ads) and ads at the streetcar stops would be sufficient. We already have plenty of money in operations (casino, parking, inside advertising, stop naming rights, and fares), I don't think we need to damage the sleek design of the streetcars with large P&G logos or calling it the Great American Streetcar or anything. Also, I really like the colors provided by Civvik.

 

I wish the initial phase of the streetcar would be free too. Maybe this topic has been beaten to death before, but we have enough operating funds without the fares, and I think it would encourage people to take it on their lunch breaks more often too. Once the second phase up the hill opens, I think it would be appropriate to charge for that portion. Mayor Mallory seems adamant that there will be a fare though... Thoughts?

I think it would be fine if the City let ONE streetcar be wrapped at any given time.  Similar to how all of the "One for Fun" busses (the #1 line) are wrapped by Hollywood Casino etc.  Many many Cities have busses wrapped and the amount of money from allowing the wrapping of 1 streetcar would be a great addition to offset operating costs.  Trust me, no matter how many different sources there are some people will still go nuts that some of that money could be somewhere else.  The nice thing about advertising and farebox recovery is that obviously it would never cover any other City program.  The higher it is the better.  if ads & fare box is currently going to cover 30% of operating costs, and selling the wrapping rights to one streetcar bumps streetcar related revenue to 33% of operating costs it's certainly worth it.  (obviously those numbers are totally made up).

 

Also, one thing to think about with completely free streetcars is that homeless people use them for AC on hot days or to get out of the rain/snow on bad days. 

 

I think I remember hearing about a day when the mayor of LA made all transportation free for one day and they had to have conversations about how to prevent it from becoming a mobile homeless shelter.   

 

This is obviously not a major issue and there are a million ways to deal with that (saying something like no one can be on a streetcar for more than one whole loop), but there are some reasons why a charge is associated with the service beyond just getting some of the operating costs covered.

 

I think the first 2 weeks of streetcar operation should be free.  hell, maybe the first 3 or 4 weeks then charge $1 a ride, $2 for a day pass.  Then reserve "free fare days" for big events and sparse occasions. 

 

Just for comparison, Queen City Metro (SORTA) gets about 4% of its operating budget from advertising.

 

There's a couple things I don't like about the ads on Metro buses:

1. When a bus is wrapped, a lot of the visibility through the winows is lost. This makes for a less pleasant ride.

2. Many of the ads on the outside of the bus are directed toward suburban commuters, particularly the auto sales ads, which doesn't do much for urbanism.

3. Many of the ads on the inside of the bus are directed toward the low-income demographic. So, when the hipsters and young professionals ride the streetcar, do we really want to blast them with ads for paternity testing and injury lawyers?

 

To me, the little bit of advertising revenue hardly seems worth the trouble, and doesn't give mass transit a better image. You don't see ads on the inside and outside of airplanes, except to advertise the airline.

 

The advertising on airplanes is in the magazines in the little pouches on the backs of seats.

Metro has some kind of rule against public service ads because somebody got miffed about STD prevention ads or something sexual, I forget what. They could have a lot more ad revenue if that dumbass rule were lifted.

O don't think the impaired visibility from wraps will be a big issue on the streetcar because the rides will be so short.

^ I disagree. One of the benefits of the streetcar will be exposing passengers to the architecture, stores and services along the route. I find it almost impossible to see much in detail from a Metro bus that's been wrapped. Plus, most of the ads I see on the buses are pretty tacky.

The diminished view from inside (and outside) also worsens the perception of danger.  Partially blocking the "eyes on the street" and also the "eyes into the streetcar" is really not a good thing.  Plus there's the point made before that ad wrapping in no way benefits the riders using the vehicle.  There's plenty of room on the non-window panels for ads if necessary. 

Plus there's the point made before that ad wrapping in no way benefits the riders using the vehicle.

 

Except that it provides an additional source of operating revenue to continue service or expand it.

This isn't the first time I've seen the skyline depicted backwards by the Enquirer or other organizations.  Some people honestly may believe that having the Scripps featured more prominently makes the skyline look more intimidating.  They actually might think they're doing the City's image and the project being examined a favor.  Just a thought.

 

The rendering was provided by the City's consultant, not made by the Enquirer

Manhole cover blew up. The second this year. All them lines do need to be replaced.

 

http://www.local12.com/News/Local/story/Manhole-Fire-Closes-Streets-in-Downtown-Cincinnati/q_josjr47EGVCWSNYDXdPg.cspx

Plus there's the point made before that ad wrapping in no way benefits the riders using the vehicle.

 

Except that it provides an additional source of operating revenue to continue service or expand it.

 

Perception outweighs even operating revenue in this case, for sure. Everything is riding (pardon the pun) on this first line.

Except that it provides an additional source of operating revenue to continue service or expand it.

 

But are you sure that it is really ADDITIONAL revenue, and not offset by slightly lower ridership?

 

I am not in favor of wrapping at all, because it really is that bad. I rode Metro buses before any of them were wrapped, and I remember that the first day that I boarded a wrapped bus, it felt really dismal inside, and the visibility was so bad that I had trouble watching for my stop. Since I was a regular rider, I found my stop ok, but if I was a new rider on a new route, it would be terrifying, It's already intimidating enough to take transit on an unfamiliar route. Why make it hard on your passengers, all for a paltry amount of ad revenue? 

 

Manhole cover blew up. The second this year. All them lines do need to be replaced.

 

http://www.local12.com/News/Local/story/Manhole-Fire-Closes-Streets-in-Downtown-Cincinnati/q_josjr47EGVCWSNYDXdPg.cspx

 

I suspect there is a real story here -- not that any reporter in this city is likely to go after it, times being what they are. What, exactly, is the condition of the utilities under our streets? I hear stories of 100 year-old wood water mains, 100 year-old brick sewers and then see news reports of electric and gas manholes exploding almost in front of Duke Energy's headquarters. It has to make you wonder.

For full context, the City owns the water lines, the County & City joint own the Sewer while the City manages it, and of course, Duke owns basically all electric and gas.

Except that it provides an additional source of operating revenue to continue service or expand it.

 

But are you sure that it is really ADDITIONAL revenue, and not offset by slightly lower ridership?

 

 

Really? Are you people seriously suggesting this?  This is now, again, one of the most ridiculous arguments- almost bad as the Bikes vs streetcar tracks fiasco we had a few weeks ago (outcome: bike riders will learn how to appropriately cross streetcar tracks. problem solved!). 

 

NO ONE is going to go... "OH NO!!! That streetcar is WRAPPED.  I'm going to not ride it" (after standing at a station and waiting for one to show up for 5-7 minutes). 

 

8th and state-- When was the last time you walked through an airport that had 0 ads.  Seriously..  Airports have billboards inside them for crying out loud.    Hell- Airplanes have almost 0 visibility (tiny little windows).  People aren't freaking out about flying on airplanes. 

 

And I'm sorry- but with all due respect, the point of the streetcar is NOT to expose people to architecture.  That is the point of the CincyHaus Brewery tours or just walking around.  The point of the streetcar is to, A: create a fixed investment in transportation that leads to further investments in infrastructure & development along the line, and B: transport people to stops along the route.  Tourism is a byproduct of the streetcar and is really more related to the development that occurs along the streetcar route- not by the view (or slightly darkened view in a wrapped streetcar).

 

These mystical people who will choose not to ride a streetcar because one of them is wrapped probably aren't going to ride the streetcar anyway.  If they will make an excuse to not ride it such as, "it's wrapped so I won't ride it" they will probably make another excuse like, "it's too cold out" or "I'll just drive and pay for parking".  Let's get real people.

Just for comparison, Queen City Metro (SORTA) gets about 4% of its operating budget from advertising.

 

Citation?  Not that I don't believe you, but a citation would be nice.

 

There's a couple things I don't like about the ads on Metro buses:

2. Many of the ads on the outside of the bus are directed toward suburban commuters, particularly the auto sales ads, which doesn't do much for urbanism.

 

I don't think anyone has said the ads need to promote non-car urbanism.

 

3. Many of the ads on the inside of the bus are directed toward the low-income demographic. So, when the hipsters and young professionals ride the streetcar, do we really want to blast them with ads for paternity testing and injury lawyers?

 

You seem to not understand the basic concept of advertising.  Advertising is directed at a specific audience, often known as a target market.  When Low income riders are the majority of bus riders, the majority of ads will be targeted at them. 

That in NO WAY implies that when a streetcar is built that is used primarily by downtown workers or newer downtown residents Metro will be forced (or advertisers would chose to) put ads up that are targeted at a market that does not ride the Streetcar.  The ads will appropriately be targeted at the people who ride the streetcar. 

 

 

CincyGuy, it's not "oh no, it's wrapped so I won't ride it" it's "I rode it before and it was kind of dark and creepy and I didn't feel safe." 

 

Being able to see outside transit vehicles is very important, even if there's nothing to look at.  People won't ride subways if the cars have no windows, even though there's nothing to look at outside the stations.  By ad wrapping a vehicle it reduces the visibility by about half, and that is NOT A GOOD THING if you want people to use it. 

Something tells me the riders of this Seattle Streetcar didn't freak out because they felt unsafe:

 

 

EDIT:  I don't know how to make this a reasonable size-- if a mod or admin can help feel free to shrink it to something more normal!

That's not a full wrapping because it doesn't cover the windows with a fine mesh, that's the problem we're talking about. 

I think you just admitted wrapping streetcars doesn't equal less ridership/worse service.  The above streetcar is entirely wrapped showing a major advertisement and yet the windows aren't covered.  Everyone wins.

 

I don't think anyone who said "wrap a streetcar" said it had to cover the windows.  Clearly City University is paying for that ad.  That is ad revenue.  The idea that it's only a wrapped Streetcar if it blocks the windows is a bit strange... Yes, the #1 bus does that, and actually dozens of the Toronto Streetcars do (I think people still use them even though they're wrapped) but that doesn't mean that's the ONLY way to make revenue by wrapping a streetcar.

 

The photo above shows how a streetcar can be wrapped, gaining a decent amount of revenue, and yet people can still see.