I get the feeling that Eighth is still telling people that The Banks will never be built.

^ +2

 

I will say one thing 8th and State is continuously repeating is technically true and he has history on his side in Cincinnati. Just because a project is funded and is underway, does NOT mean it will be built.

 

Primo case in point:  Subway.  I bet there were some huge subway backers who laid off the political pressure and celebrated as soon as the construction started.  Hell, they had tunnels IN THE GROUND, of course it was being built and would be done in a couple years!!  Then political appetite changed and the project became one of the biggest disappointments in Cincinnati's history (that and the 75 construction through downtown and the WestEnd are the two greatest failures in urban development in Cincinnati). 

 

So, what we need to do is accept that the streetcar IS BEING BUILT but that does NOT guarantee it will open.  John Cranley will stop construction (no matter how close to being done it is, or how much we'll have spent or committed) shortly after he is sworn into office if he wins.  And he can.  He will replace the City manager ASAP (if we lose 1-2 streetcar supporters on council he can hire his own manager and his manager can begin stalling/stopping the project[it's a little more complicated than all that so i'm simplifying things, but it's definitely possible)

 

Roxanne Qualls is not charismatic, is very intelligent (will be attacked as "too intelligent") and is too much of a good politician who doesn't play the stupid political games of scaring people, going with the "popular at the moment" opinions, making generic political arguments, etc.

 

Cranley is not that much more charismatic, but he's great at appealing to peoples fears, pointing out doom and gloom situations, saying political things like "spend money in the neighborhoods not downtown!!!", printing lies in Enquirer editorials (and he's smart too so they weren't just errors) and other such vitriol.

 

So 8th and State is right in that construction doesn't mean it's going to open, but it most certainly is underway and as long as we keep political pressure on our elected officials, fight back against stupid Enquirer editorials, and elect a pro-streetcar mayor/council next year we will be good to go.

Cranley is not going to win unless Qualls gets ill or is hit by a bus.  Moving on...

 

The reason why BRT is not later turned into rail is because if BRT gets you some increased ridership and ROI, then the amount which rail gets you above the original baseline vs. the BRT is diminished, but often the capital cost is nearly the same.  Case in point the Cleveland Health Line, where they'd have to scrap absolutely everything built for the BRT if they were going to do surface rail or a subway.  So all that BRT capital cost would be lost. 

 

So to simplify:

 

If an existing bus route is getting 10,000 riders per day but BRT gets ridership to 20,000, the cost to increase 20,000 to 30,000 for rail doesn't make it worth it.  Instead of tripling ridership, it increases it by 50%. 

 

 

Cranley is not going to win unless Qualls gets ill or is hit by a bus.  Moving on...

 

The last time Cranley & Qualls were on a ballot together:

 

City Council 2007

Roxanne Qualls ©:  33,775

John Cranley (D):      33,772

 

In 2005, Cranley was the top vote getter.

 

Since 2007 Qualls has done a whole bunch of great things that will be attacked (3CDC, downtown, streetcar).

 

I think it will be more of a battle than you think though I certainly think it leans in her favor. 

 

That being said, if the streetcar is under full blown construction with the maintenance facility being built, roads being ripped up in the CBD (not just elm & race where no one even notices the construction), rail ordered, cars under construction, by July 2013, I think Roxanne will have it locked up, as Cranley will be running on, "let's stop this project that is half way finished".

 

Other news: I've heard the maintenance facility will be one of the first things built.

Not directly related to Cincinnati, and not official yet, but 73% of downtown Los Angeles residents have apparently voted in favor of a modern streetcar system in a special election.

^ Why would just the downtown residents vote? Or did the whole city vote? In which case, we all want to know the city-wide results.

I'm not sure of the details, but the election was only among registered voters in the downtown precincts. The election wasn't city-wide.

 

Clarification: The vote was to create a special assessment district, so only people registered to vote within the proposed district voted.

Ohio Natural Gas has upped its offer to 25,000 SkyMiles if you switch to ONG from Duke Energy. Formerly, it was 10,000 miles.

 

See: http://www.onlyong.com/delta/

I'm not sure of the details, but the election was only among registered voters in the downtown precincts. The election wasn't city-wide.

 

Clarification: The vote was to create a special assessment district, so only people registered to vote within the proposed district voted.

 

Interesting.  I wonder if something similiar might be possible in Cincinnati.  Basically, if uptown wants their connector bad enough, they could vote for funding it without angering other neighborhoods who don't see the direct benefit of better transit.

 

Back when Mark Miller was being a semi-rational human being, one thing he said (on my radio show) was that property owners along the route should pay for the streetcar by having a special district that would pay higher taxes in exchange the benefit of having the streetcar. While it's not a bad idea, it would be impossible for such a a district to generate enough revenue to pay for the upfront capital investment. Maybe the district would be used to pay for just the operating expenses? I sure wouldn't mind paying a little extra in property taxes to fund the operation of a streetcar right outside my front door.

the part that doesn't necessarily make sense about that proposal is that property owners along the route will already be paying more... when their property values increase and thus property taxes increase. Further, there's no need for increased taxes to pay for this. The city has managed to find money from a variety of sources.

I'm not sure of the details, but the election was only among registered voters in the downtown precincts. The election wasn't city-wide.

 

Clarification: The vote was to create a special assessment district, so only people registered to vote within the proposed district voted.

 

Interesting.  I wonder if something similiar might be possible in Cincinnati.  Basically, if uptown wants their connector bad enough, they could vote for funding it without angering other neighborhoods who don't see the direct benefit of better transit.

 

Back when Mark Miller was being a semi-rational human being, one thing he said (on my radio show) was that property owners along the route should pay for the streetcar by having a special district that would pay higher taxes in exchange the benefit of having the streetcar. While it's not a bad idea, it would be impossible for such a a district to generate enough revenue to pay for the upfront capital investment. Maybe the district would be used to pay for just the operating expenses? I sure wouldn't mind paying a little extra in property taxes to fund the operation of a streetcar right outside my front door.

 

That was the plan in Columbus before the project got the axe.

>no need for increased taxes to pay for this

 

If the city as a whole becomes more valuable, the same property tax millage raises more revenue.  In fact the most expensive cities have significantly lower property tax rates than Cincinnati. 

>no need for increased taxes to pay for this

 

If the city as a whole becomes more valuable, the same property tax millage raises more revenue.  In fact the most expensive cities have significantly lower property tax rates than Cincinnati.

 

thank you for saying this

Except that's wrong, because the City rolls back property taxes everytime values go up. The city is actually taking in the smallest amount of property taxes Ever when adjusted for inflation. This year is $23 million for the general fund. 5 years ago was $29 million. Also, nearly everything built in OTR is abated for st least 10 years, do no new condos taxes go up as values increase. Also, the auditor says values are not increasing in OTR but are simply staying solid. in fact, Brackett Village (owned by W&S) on walnut all got an 80% reduction in value last year on all theor properties to lower their tax "burden".

I know the abatement/TIF thing is a problem.  But the average person isn't smart enough to look at average property value and compare that against millage.  Go on City-Data.com and look at suburbanites launch into lengthy and completely inaccurate discussions of property taxes by county/township/municipality or whatever, never once considering that factor, or other factors like higher transportation costs when comparing outer counties to Hamilton County. 

 

>The city is actually taking in the smallest amount of property taxes Ever when adjusted for inflation.

 

Right, cities used to get revenue almost entirely from property taxes, streetcar franchises, and fines.  The appearance of earnings taxes coincides almost perfectly with the disappearance of lucrative streetcar contracts, but earnings taxes have since grown to be the prime source of income for many cities around the country -- at least those where earnings taxes are permitted by state law. 

 

NYC is 3.6% for earnings above $60,000, WAY higher than ours.  But Los Angeles has no earnings tax because California law does not permit it.  Instead they have a higher state sales tax that automatically returns a certain percentage directly to counties and municipalities.

 

Hamilton County commisioners are voting today on raising the property tax, or more specifically reducing the 1996 property tax rollback.  But Monzel, etc., have been on the radio for the past week proposing a quarter-cent sales tax hike.  So what we're seeing is the county following the city's lead in shifting its ad valorum revenue collection from property taxes to taxing money that changes hands.  The stadium sales tax was the first step, but we're going to see a new sales tax bundled with some civic project or the so-called culture tax at some point.  The commissioners can, of course, simply raise the sales tax, but such a move will almost certainly become the object of a citizen ballot issue like the Tim Mara-led effort against the 1996 stadium sales tax. 

 

If you have been at this forum long enough to debate the merits of the streetcar and cannot answer your own question as to why the city didnt simply craft this line as BRT, then you shouldn't be discussing the merits of the streetcar...

The streetcar was supposed to have been opened by now.

 

Yeah, no shit? Maybe you missed those two ballot referendums and Kasich's administration reallocating money. Ignorance is bliss for you I guess though.

 

 

For a startup cost of a few $million, we could have had a new bus route on the proposed streetcar line. Whether the bus is decorated to look like a trolley, whether it was a regular bus with some streetcar advertising on it, or whether it was just an ordinary Metro bus, it could have brought some attention to the proposed streetcar route and gotten people used to the idea. Then, it could be cancelled and replaced by a streetcar.

 

And time and time again you have to be told why this wouldn't work.

 

A modern streetcar is incredibly different than a bus in terms of the advantages it presents and physical size. Did you hit your head when you were practicing riding your bike on the streetcar rails?

Hope those damned construction contacts are signed by now. I guess the plan is to just start building over Duke's utilities, similar to MSD's?

bids aren't due back until January, then someone will win.  Also, there is no option to build over most of duke's infrastructure like that.  $15 million will be spent to move things.

  Also, there is no option to build over most of duke's infrastructure like that.  $15 million will be spent to move things.

 

So the city lost the negotiations with Duke? Where is this money going to come from? I can see a major outcry if it's from an even somewhat controversial source.

  Also, there is no option to build over most of duke's infrastructure like that.  $15 million will be spent to move things.

 

So the city lost the negotiations with Duke? Where is this money going to come from? I can see a major outcry if it's from an even somewhat controversial source.

 

I think they passed bonds with the expectation of using casino revenue, with the hopes that eventually it will be decided that Duke must pay for the relocation.

 

But it is my understanding that Duke has said they will not move anything, even with city money, until the situation is settled in court. So that's why I was wondering if they were just going to build. Because I don't see how anyone will be able to move anything without Duke's authorization, even if someone other than Duke is footing the bill.

Council already appropriated an extra $15 million from blue ash for Duke utilities. I believe the city and duke are in negotiations on an operating agreement. Once they is hammered out (duke is asking for the moon) they will allow their utilities to be moved with the cities funds. But they won't even give the city a schedule or plan until an operating agreement is signed, Even though it wkr be operating for over 2 years.

When will the contracts be awarded?

Bids are due 1/18; contracts awarded in Feb/March, trackwork in May

Council already appropriated an extra $15 million from blue ash for Duke utilities. I believe the city and duke are in negotiations on an operating agreement. Once they is hammered out (duke is asking for the moon) they will allow their utilities to be moved with the cities funds. But they won't even give the city a schedule or plan until an operating agreement is signed, Even though it wkr be operating for over 2 years.

 

Riiiight, it was from the airport sale. How could I forget? Probably because this saga is so ridiculous and has so many twists.

 

Anyone know any news about the COAST lawsuit against the airport sale?

I saw the bid request. There was some terminology in there about the final utility relocation.

 

I am guessing this is the engineering/design side of things?

 

Here's a link to the Notice of Invitation to Bid:

 

http://www.cincinnati-oh.gov/streetcar/linkservid/64FAA561-F6B2-05FE-3EF186048F7AA7D6/showMeta/0/

Council already appropriated an extra $15 million from blue ash for Duke utilities. I believe the city and duke are in negotiations on an operating agreement. Once they is hammered out (duke is asking for the moon) they will allow their utilities to be moved with the cities funds. But they won't even give the city a schedule or plan until an operating agreement is signed, Even though it wkr be operating for over 2 years.

 

 

Anyone know any news about the COAST lawsuit against the airport sale?

 

Pretty much just routine case maintenance. Blue Ash & Cincinnati have moved for dismissal based on the facts of the case, and Finney has filed an objection. Finney has filed a request to bring another attorney in as his co-chair, Deborah L Meyer who lives in Maineville, Ohio but is only licensed to practice law in Kentucky. Maybe Frivolous Finney thinks that he can't hack this case all by himself.

City seeks change in SORTA agreement

 

Tax dollars that now pay for Cincinnati’s Metro bus system could be diverted to the city’s streetcar project under a new proposal from the city. City officials this week asked the Southwest Ohio Regional Transit Authority, which runs Metro, to change an agreement with the city that currently prohibits using money from Metro’s “transit fund” for the $110 million streetcar project. The transit fund, which consists of about $42 million collected from city wage taxes, pays for the day-to-day operation of Metro buses throughout Cincinnati and Hamilton County.

 

The city’s current agreement with SORTA explicitly forbids using transit-fund money to help provide the local share of the streetcar project, which also will receive tens of millions of dollars in federal grants. The proposed change would remove that ban from the agreement.

 

City officials say they made the request for legal reasons that have nothing to do with the streetcar and they have no intention or desire to use transit-fund money for the controversial project. Streetcar opponents, though, and even some advocates say the move is troubling because it could shift resources from existing public transportation to the streetcar

 

http://news.cincinnati.com/article/20121215/NEWS/312150023/City-seeks-change-SORTA-agreement

 

And right on queue, good old PG Sittenfeld chimes in with more anti-streetcar bullshit. Smitherman's also quoted, the only thing missing is a gratuitous quote from frivolous shyster Christopher P Finney.

^When did that ban get put in there?

I think 2009.

I feel like we're still 10 years away from seeing the streetcar running here.  Its unbelievable how many battles the city has had to fight for this project.

I feel like we're still 10 years away from seeing the streetcar running here.  Its unbelievable how many battles the city has had to fight for this project.

 

I bet it'll be running in five years, if not sooner.

Some Federal dollars disappear if they haven't been spent by the end of 2014, also if Cranley wins.

I feel like we're still 10 years away from seeing the streetcar running here.  Its unbelievable how many battles the city has had to fight for this project.

 

Sadly, it's routine in many cities. Cincinnati will be lucky if this only takes 10 years. And I think you will be fortunate. Your mayor is a brave and resolute man, as is a majority of your City Council. They will see this through.

I feel like we're still 10 years away from seeing the streetcar running here.  Its unbelievable how many battles the city has had to fight for this project.

 

Sadly, it's routine in many cities. Cincinnati will be lucky if this only takes 10 years. And I think you will be fortunate. Your mayor is a brave and resolute man, as is a majority of your City Council. They will see this through.

 

Because a culture war taking place surrounding upstart fixed transit is predictable doesn't mean ten years to build a 3 mile loop would somehow be lucky.

 

The first thing Qualls should do as mayor is prop up a transit network.  The wait and see approach won't work for the Streetcar.  There is a huge demand for a larger system and the City should give their critics that satisfaction.

Because a culture war taking place surrounding upstart fixed transit is predictable doesn't mean ten years to build a 3 mile loop would somehow be lucky.

 

No, 10 years is the average time a federally funded project (road, rail, airport, dam, courthouse, monument, etc) takes to go from idea to ribbon cutting. Then you add X years on top of that to fight the culture war. If you're lucky, those years stay in the single digits. If you're unlucky, the culture war takes longer or even kills the project.

 

There's a city just up the road from Cincinnati where the cultural war killed various attempts to build rail transit going back to the 1970s. In the most recent attempt, the mayor let it die. If Columbus' mayor had the same bravery of Cincinnati's to stand up to opponents, they might be running neck-n-neck with Cincinnati on building Ohio's first modern streetcar.

Yeah except the "city" of Columbus includes vast suburban areas, which is why it's not happening there or in the city/county merger cities like Nashville and Indianapolis. 

The City is correcting some information in the Enquirer's latest hack job.  Also, the Sierra Club has named the Cincinnati Streetcar as one of the 50 best transportation projects in the country (the Eastern Corridor is named as one of the worst).

 

http://www.cincinnati-oh.gov/streetcar/news/enquirer-article-facts-about-the-citysorta-iga/

 

http://www.sierraclub.org/transportation/downloads/2012-11-Best-Worst-Transportation-Projects.pdf

^This seems like a money/power grab by SORTA. Makes me wonder if Metro should be in charge of the streetcar.

This may of been discussed but won't the streetcar eliminate some bus routes. I too question Metro overseeing the streetcar now.

I would say it would be more likely that Metro would reroute some buses. They won't eliminate the buses that currently serve that route as they go much further into the outer neighborhoods and suburbs. It will provide more bus access for other streets, though. The buses that currently run up/down Elm/Race may move a block or two if demand changes. Or they could always have fewer stops downtown/OTR so the bus makes more lights and better time.

This may of been discussed but won't the streetcar eliminate some bus routes. I too question Metro overseeing the streetcar now.

No, the streetcar route will not eliminate any bus routes.  I've not been happy with the thought of Metro managing the streetcar all along.  Our bus system is one of the most embarrassingly bad systems I've ever used for many, many reasons.  And the worst part of it all is that they haven't changed a thing about how they operate for as long as they've been in business.  I'm very concerned they are going to do a really bad job with the streetcar too.  In fact, I fear they could cause it to be the first unsuccessful new streetcar system in the country.

So what would you do then?

 

My suggestion is to not be afraid until you have a reason to be afraid. Being prepared is another matter, and that includes being both optimistic and skeptical at the same time.

This may of been discussed but won't the streetcar eliminate some bus routes. I too question Metro overseeing the streetcar now.

No, the streetcar route will not eliminate any bus routes.  I've not been happy with the thought of Metro managing the streetcar all along.  Our bus system is one of the most embarrassingly bad systems I've ever used for many, many reasons.  And the worst part of it all is that they haven't changed a thing about how they operate for as long as they've been in business.  I'm very concerned they are going to do a really bad job with the streetcar too.  In fact, I fear they could cause it to be the first unsuccessful new streetcar system in the country.

 

I completely disagree with this statement.  I haven't owned a car in 8 years and I've ridden many transit systems since then including daily rides while living in Milwaukee, Minneapolis/St Paul, Chicago, and Cincinnati.  Of those systems I firmly appreciate the service Cincinnati Metro offers best.  If you want to see a bad system, go to Milwaukee, Detroit, or Baltimore.  Minneapolis has a nice system that is expanding with Light Rail, but they fail at simple things like showing bus route numbers at all of their stops.  It can be very confusing in the downtown areas.  Chicago has a very efficient system, but their buses are terribly dirty and out of date and the EL is ancient.  The rehabbed EL stations are really not inviting. 

 

Cincinnati's Metro bus system has a bad past.  They were horribly innefficient in during the years when they just used orange paint on the poles...but those years are gone.  They are perpetually improving the system by adding new buses, improving transit centers and shelters, updating the user-friendliness of their website, keeping bus drivers on time, and reorganizing routes to maximize efficiency.  Look at their preliminary transit proposal online.  It is FANTASTIC!  They clearly have turned a new direction and are working VERY hard to improve the system constantly.

 

I'm thrilled that Metro has agreed to operate the Streetcar.  It would be a FAR more confusing system on its own.

When did they fix the orange paint on the poles thing? I've only visited since moving away in 2009.

The orange paint things been fixed for at least 10 years....

 

I just arrived in Phoenix for visiting family over Christmas, and the first thing I did when I got here was get a bus pass for the time I'm here. The shelters I've seen so far don't even indicate what bus stops there.... so already I'm discouraged the system is going to be confusing.

The orange paint things been fixed for at least 10 years....

 

I just arrived in Phoenix for visiting family over Christmas, and the first thing I did when I got here was get a bus pass for the time I'm here. The shelters I've seen so far don't even indicate what bus stops there.... so already I'm discouraged the system is going to be confusing.

 

What shelters are you talking about?  Every stop has a bright green sign at it listing the number.

Really? I'm a little outside of downtown in Laveen. The stops I've seen around the neighborhood just say "bus stop"