^ Laying the rail and ordering vehicles is the easy part. The hard part is figuring out what to do with all of the stuff that's already in the street and is in the way. The Duke issue alone has added at least a year to the project.

Really? How many streetcar systems have you designed?

 

This is generally true.  Just from looking at the RFP, and then the Contract with Messer and the timelines, it's pretty clear that the downtown section will be opening 1 year later than the OTR section almost exclusively because of utilities.

Eighth, I agree that the project is more complicated politically than some people expected. But I completely disagree that it's more complicated technically. The Cincinnati Streetcar is using the same rail technology that is in use all around the world today. Modern streetcars are more than capable of making it around corners, and making it up the Vine Street hill when the time comes. The contractors are not going to run into any major problems when manufacturing the vehicles or the rail. It's all standard stuff.

 

As someone with friends very close to the project, 8th has one thing correct. Utilities are the biggest thing that would slow things down, and really, it's just Duke. 

 

Duke has held out for several reasons, one being $$ one being that they enjoy a bit of bill through the ignorance of what is beneath Cincinnati streets.  We are the 2nd oldest City in the country building a modern streetcar (DC being oldest).  I have heard through multiple reliable sources that Duke has a mishmash of contradictory maps from CG&E days about exactly what is under the downtown streets and where. Many of the electrical systems are certainly outdated, but since they are working they haven't been replaced.  That is why OTR will go so much more quickly.  It's basically a neighborhood grid.  Downtown serves the office buildings, etc. and has many more relays and other transmission apparatus that are complicated and will take time to replace/move/protect.

 

THAT BEING SAID. 

 

That is the reason why they have scheduled an entire extra year between OTR's completion and downtown's completion.  They are confident that extra year will ensure everything is done. 

 

 

Something that is being understated is the massive advantage we will have since we put our order for streetcars in ahead of time. We will have the streetcars for nearly a year before service starts.  That is a massive bonus.  DC and Tuscon completed all construction of the system prior to receiving a single streetcar. Tuscon just received their first streetcar this week.  1 year later than they were supposed to.

Cincinnati is 13 years older than Washington D.C. organizationally and even older as a settlement area.

^ But infrastructurally?  I don't know about that. 

Frances Trollope had a hard time getting gas lights in her Bazaar in the 1830s. Dunno if this has anything to do with the current utility issues.

What is the big deal about utilities and having them moved? Don't lightning hit them often and I don't see them moved for that?

^ But infrastructurally?  I don't know about that. 

 

Compare population charts from 1850-1890. Cincinnati had a lot more people during that period -- sometimes twice as many. It also had about the same amount of people between 1830-1850. Cincinnati didn't start losing out to D.C. until the 1940s.

True, but even in 1880 Cincinnati only had the most rudimentary sewer system, for example.  Like basically only the downtown core of today was served on every street.  Most of OTR and the West End had just a few streets with any sewers at all.  http://www.lib.utexas.edu/maps/historical/cincinnati_sewerage_1880.jpg  I'd need to dig up my history of the Cincinnati Water Works to recall how things progressed with that, but I think it was similar.  Either way, both cities were founded at pretty much the same time, though L'Enfant drew up his plan for Washington when Cincinnati had barely been settled for 2 or 3 years.  I think Washington probably has more old infrastructure because they built it earlier as part of the plan with growth in mind.  Here it was more on an as-needed basis, and a lot of it got expanded or replaced over time, so it's likely newer but more haphazard.  Nevertheless, Washington has some pretty monstrous main streets, unlike here, so it's less likely for all their utilities to be in the way, which helps because they have a lot of problems with their underground stuff as it's gotten so old. 

Oh come on people.  There are gigantic projects going on in bigger cities all around the world, BUT YET AGAIN this thread is visited by the thought that what lies beneath Cincinnati's streets is confounding people who have done this for a living for decades in much bigger cities on much bigger projects.  Yeah, Cincinnati's streetcar is right up there with the F-22 program and the Channel Tunnel. 

Frances Trollope had a hard time getting gas lights in her Bazaar in the 1830s. Dunno if this has anything to do with the current utility issues.

 

I laughed. 

 

^ Laying the rail and ordering vehicles is the easy part. The hard part is figuring out what to do with all of the stuff that's already in the street and is in the way. The Duke issue alone has added at least a year to the project.

 

There is a tangle of utilities underneath every street in every major city. That is not unique to Cincinnati. The contractors here will deal with it, the same way they have dealt with it in other cities.

 

The Duke Energy dispute was political, not technical. There is no technical reason why utilities must be moved 8 feet away from streetcar tracks. Duke demanded that because they wanted the city to pay for the replacement of more of their aging utilities.

Some of you are incredibly ignorant in your bliss. 8th & state should not be criticized for appropriately pointing out the complicated nature of utility relocation. Don't act like there is no possibility for delays. We have a great crew working on it, but in many if not most of the cities building streetcar systems there were delays due to utilities. 

 

ARIZONA DAILY STAR

Broadway to open temporarily; info on buried utilities was bad 

 

After nearly three weeks of a disruptive shutdown of Broadway through downtown for streetcar construction, the boulevard is reopening today. 

 

But drivers shouldn't interpret that to mean the inconvenience is over. This is just a reprieve. In a few weeks - city officials aren't sure how many - the barricades will be back up. 

 

It turns out the city's schematics for where underground utilities were located were wrong, which means none of what was designed for the new sewer and water lines fits.

 

So now the city is filling the hole back in, repaving and heading back to the drawing board to re-design the whole thing. 

 

http://azstarnet.com/news/local/govt-and-politics/broadway-to-open-temporarily-info-on-buried-utilities-was-bad/article_94d08b69-e93e-57ba-bde2-076360270881.html

WABE NEWS

After months of delay, the Atlanta streetcar project is poised to lay down its first section of tracks.

 

"We expect to begin laying them down early next month," said Tom Weyandt, Atlanta's senior policy adviser for transportation.

 

Unexpected issues related to moving utility lines set the project back about six months.

 

“We’re building this in two of the oldest parts of the city - the Martin Luther King district and the Auburn Avenue district,” said Weyandt. “You have to deal with the spaghetti of utilities down underneath the street and sidewalks.”

 

http://m.wabe.org/?utm_referrer=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.google.com%2F#mobile/34659

 

Are these very possible delays going to kill the project? No. Can they add 6 months to the timeline? It's possible.  Why did Atlanta have delays if we can build F-22's?

 

Get out of fantasy land please. That reminds me of all of the old people saying why can we get to the moon but My toaster won't work.

 

This is a major infrastructure project and while it will get done, laughing at someone for pointing out real utility issues is ridiculous.

>This is a major infrastructure project and while it will get done, laughing at someone for pointing out real utility issues is ridiculous.

 

Nobody has said there won't be any complications surrounding specific utility situations.  But one person, year after year, continues to present utility relocation as an absolutely insurmountable obstacle.  As if relocation crews are just going to pack up and go home. 

 

Meanwhile, from the August 30, 2013 NY Post:

>Nobody has said there won't be any complications surrounding specific utility situations.  But one person, year after year, continues to present utility relocation as an absolutely insurmountable obstacle.

 

AKA: Concern troll.

Unlike other cities, the ground beneath downtown Cincinnati is filled with dragons and buried treasures!

 

Also, strangely enough there is an Applebee's.

Only Applebee's in the country which doubles as a subway station. Best mozzarella sticks ever.

Unlike other cities, the ground beneath downtown Cincinnati is filled with dragons and buried treasures!

Also, strangely enough there is an Applebee's.

Ever seee Cloverfield?

I agree that there are "real utility issues."  But that doesn't mean people haven't overhyped those issues into more than they are. 

Duke Energy  is now saying the city is trying to actively destroy an "embarrassing" document regarding the streetcar

 

http://cin.ci/17vxKFz

John Cranley said that this is what the document stated in a public lecture yesterday at UC.

Cranley should be banned from UO

The plot thickens.

Smitherman also stated this during his hour with Brian Thomas Thursday morning.

For legal reasons, scuttlebutt of what the document said should not be posted here unless and until a media outlet reports what's in the document and that report is sourced (with a link). Then it's fair game.

 

Also, the media report (posted above) and the subsequent discussion of that media report is a legal and viable discussion.

First streetcar tracks to be placed mid-October

 

The tracks are expected to arrive in early October, with the first tracks being laid on the east side of Elm on or around Oct. 15.

 

That date is about a month ahead of a previous projected schedule.

Good news. Real progress in the form of tracks will be huge evidence toward the inevitability of the project.

Good news. Real progress in the form of tracks will be huge evidence toward the inevitability of the project.

 

<iframe width="420" height="315" src="//www.youtube.com/embed/kIbEj1CIpuU" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Good news. Real progress in the form of tracks will be huge evidence toward the inevitability of the project.

 

It may leave some huge evidence but Smitherman/700wlw/55krc/COAST/Cranley/Enquirer are not detectives

Delta is doing a good job of getting the non-specialized track here quickly. The corners will take longer but it's looking good for the sections of straight track.

 

 

Great news day today for the streetcar. Having said that, I hope everyone has actually gone out and voted for Roxanne today. Turnout is extremely low. I wouldn't be surprised if it was less than the anticipated 12%. Each and every vote is amplified. Please take a few minutes to get to the polls before 7:30!

Great news day today for the streetcar. Having said that, I hope everyone has actually gone out and voted for Roxanne today. Turnout is extremely low. I wouldn't be surprised if it was less than the anticipated 12%. Each and every vote is amplified. Please take a few minutes to get to the polls before 7:30!

 

Derek's right, and the key thing is, whoever wins/loses tonight will have an easier/tougher time raising money for the November 5th General Election.

 

You have until 7:30p to vote. Check to see if you registered and to see if your polling place has changed -- here: http://boe.hamilton-co.org/

Less than 10% showed up. Cranley won the primary.

Although a record low number, less than 6%, of Cincinnati's registered voters cast a ballot yesterday, the only headline people will hear is that 'Cranley beat Qualls'. Those of you who have said that this is going to be an easy election and that Qualls will walk away with it, I hope that you got your wake up call loud and clear. Get out and vote. Volunteer. Donate money. Your vote does matter, and might have made a difference yesterday. Don't sit on the sidelines and complain, get involved. Our Streetcar depends on it.

 

I was reading the Cranley vs Qualls information today and it just really irks me when I see what Cranley is proposing.  The public has voted and voiced their opinions that they want the streetcar.  Then you get Cranley who says he vows to kill the project.  That's just great, ignore the people and waste more money by killing a project that has already spent how many $$$...?  What an idiot!  He is the same type of Politian that made Cincinnati lose ground to other cities decades ago.  I want a forward thinking person in charge and I'm hoping the people will see that. 

The Fishwarp is insane

Headline:

'Destroy' streetcar memo, judge suggests

first line:

A judge has ordered Duke Energy to “destroy” or give back a city-produced memo the utility says contains critical information to determine whether the city or Duke will have to pay to relocate underground utility lines to build the streetcar.

 

So is it a suggestion or an order?

Fortunately the Warp provides an image of the 100% redacted document...

 

http://news.cincinnati.com/article/20130911/NEWS010801/309110129/

Yes it sounds crazy - do we really think he can/will kill the streetcar if elected?  This would really be hard to fathom and definitely shake my faith in the future of Cincy.  It would definitely be another black mark in our rail history and would probably disqualify us from federal assistance for the forseeable future, if ever.

 

Yes it sounds crazy - do we really think he can/will kill the streetcar if elected?  This would really be hard to fathom and definitely shake my faith in the future of Cincy.  It would definitely be another black mark in our rail history and would probably disqualify us from federal assistance for the forseeable future, if ever.

 

Well, Kasich promised to and then did kill the 3C Amtrak line immediately after taking office, to the cheers of his base.  This had very little negative impact on him politically, despite it "costing" $600M of forgone federal funding that is now being used to improve some other state.  It's clear that Cranley took notice of that.  Anyone who cares about the future of rail transit in this region needs to go out and vote for Qualls in November.  I don't want to find out if Cranley would actually follow through on his promises.  We cannot afford to take that chance.

This probably should go in the mayoral thread, but it is really time to frame Cranley as the Republican candidate, which of course he is.

CincyStreetcar ‏@CincyStreetcar 2m

KC and Detroit are looking to piggyback on Cincinnati’s streetcar order http://tinyurl.com/lvqe8kx

It's not surprising that the Enquirer failed to mention this and the early installation of rails on Elm Street. Yet they are very quick to gossip about the streetcar memo that the judge in the Duke case said was not important enough to be used in the case.

So that mentions that it will save all parties money. Does this mean that the overall cost of the trains will be less for us?

Yes it sounds crazy - do we really think he can/will kill the streetcar if elected?  This would really be hard to fathom and definitely shake my faith in the future of Cincy.  It would definitely be another black mark in our rail history and would probably disqualify us from federal assistance for the forseeable future, if ever.

 

 

 

Well, Kasich promised to and then did kill the 3C Amtrak line immediately after taking office, to the cheers of his base.  This had very little negative impact on him politically, despite it "costing" $600M of forgone federal funding that is now being used to improve some other state.  It's clear that Cranley took notice of that.  Anyone who cares about the future of rail transit in this region needs to go out and vote for Qualls in November.  I don't want to find out if Cranley would actually follow through on his promises.  We cannot afford to take that chance.

 

If I lived in Cincinnati I would vote for Qualls in a minute.  But what about Council after the Nov. election?  Doesn't Cranley's ability to cancel the project depend upon getting his ducks in a row on a friendly Council?  So...anybody know what the outlook is for the next Council?

Yes it sounds crazy - do we really think he can/will kill the streetcar if elected?  This would really be hard to fathom and definitely shake my faith in the future of Cincy.  It would definitely be another black mark in our rail history and would probably disqualify us from federal assistance for the forseeable future, if ever.

 

 

 

Well, Kasich promised to and then did kill the 3C Amtrak line immediately after taking office, to the cheers of his base.  This had very little negative impact on him politically, despite it "costing" $600M of forgone federal funding that is now being used to improve some other state.  It's clear that Cranley took notice of that.  Anyone who cares about the future of rail transit in this region needs to go out and vote for Qualls in November.  I don't want to find out if Cranley would actually follow through on his promises.  We cannot afford to take that chance.

 

If I lived in Cincinnati I would vote for Qualls in a minute.  But what about Council after the Nov. election?  Doesn't Cranley's ability to cancel the project depend upon getting his ducks in a row on a friendly Council?  So...anybody know what the outlook is for the next Council?

 

Well, you can be sure that streetcar haters Smitherman, Winburn and Sittenfeld are shoe-ins for re-election.

I was reading the Cranley vs Qualls information today and it just really irks me when I see what Cranley is proposing.  The public has voted and voiced their opinions that they want the streetcar.  Then you get Cranley who says he vows to kill the project.  That's just great, ignore the people and waste more money by killing a project that has already spent how many $$$...?  What an idiot!  He is the same type of Politian that made Cincinnati lose ground to other cities decades ago.  I want a forward thinking person in charge and I'm hoping the people will see that.

 

If he gets elected with that promise then doesn't that mean the public wants/is cool with killing it?

 

/Devil's advocate

 

If he gets elected with that promise then doesn't that mean the public wants/is cool with killing it?

 

/Devil's advocate

 

 

No, because transit isn't the number 1 issue for the majority of voters.  He could get elected for any number of reasons.  A vote for a candidate isn't an endorsement for 100% of their opinions/platform.

 

If he gets elected with that promise then doesn't that mean the public wants/is cool with killing it?

 

/Devil's advocate

 

 

No, because transit isn't the number 1 issue for the majority of voters.  He could get elected for any number of reasons.  A vote for a candidate isn't an endorsement for 100% of their opinions/platform.

 

Again, just to play Devil's Advocate: To John and Jane Q. Public, aren't the only real two issues in the race the streetcar and the parking plan?  If so, it would seem difficult to argue a Cranley win isn't a rejection of the streetcar.

I think there are a lot of people who support the streetcar or are ambivalent about it, but oppose the parking plan.  The inverse may be true as well.  In either case, a vote for Cranley isn't necessarily a vote against both issues (though he will certainly claim that it is).

 

If he gets elected with that promise then doesn't that mean the public wants/is cool with killing it?

 

/Devil's advocate

 

 

No, because transit isn't the number 1 issue for the majority of voters.  He could get elected for any number of reasons.  A vote for a candidate isn't an endorsement for 100% of their opinions/platform.

 

Again, just to play Devil's Advocate: To John and Jane Q. Public, aren't the only real two issues in the race the streetcar and the parking plan?  If so, it would seem difficult to argue a Cranley win isn't a rejection of the streetcar.

 

If Cranley is elected and the pro-streetcar members of council are not, then you could probably say this.  But just on the mayor's race?  I don't see how you can say that at all. 

Any way you slice it, Cranley winning would be terrible for this city. Start talking to your friends, neighbors, coworkers and strangers. I started a conversation on the bus this morning because people thought that they changed all the bus routes because Metro is using the money on the Streetcar instead of the busses. There is an insane amount of misinformation floating around out there.