What has the city spent on large recent road projects like Waldvogel, Kennedy Connector and the silly realignment of Harrison avenue in Fairmount?  Even the rebuilding of Riverside on the western riverfront about a decade ago must have been costly.  I didn't see $$numbers on the city website. 

Remind people of these millions spent on short road projects, and no one had a vote via referendums or total meltdowns over these investments.  What ere the projected ROI's of these projects vs. streetcar.  Put it into perspective so folks can relate.

What has the city spent on large recent road projects like Waldvogel, Kennedy Connector and the silly realignment of Harrison avenue in Fairmount?  Even the rebuilding of Riverside on the western riverfront about a decade ago must have been costly.  I didn't see $$numbers on the city website. 

Remind people of these millions spent on short road projects, and no one had a vote via referendums or total meltdowns over these investments.  What ere the projected ROI's of these projects vs. streetcar.  Put it into perspective so folks can relate.

 

This is the Enquirer's job, which they should have started years ago. Reporting facts and putting things into context/perspective.

What is the value of all present city road infrastructure, including roads, bridges, signals and on and on.  What percentage of the city's total transportation infrastructure would the streetcar represent?  Bet it's a tiny fraction.  Calculate these values.  SHOW people that this RELATIVELY small investment has huge upside potential, especially considering a large chunk of the cost is provided by taxes they have already paid via federal funding.  Would they rather see their taxes get spent elsewhere?

What is the value of all present city road infrastructure, including roads, bridges, signals and on and on.  What percentage of the city's total transportation infrastructure would the streetcar represent?  Bet it's a tiny fraction.  Calculate these values.  SHOW people that this RELATIVELY small investment has huge upside potential, especially com

Snide ring a large chunk of the cost is provided by taxes they have already paid via federal funding.  Would they rather see their taxes get spent elsewhere?

 

And a lot of Cincinnati's local streets and roads are paid for by non-user city income taxes, property taxes, bonding...and, and, and...revenue from the city-owned Cincinnati Southern Railroad, which is leased to Norfolk Southern. Any way to figure the cumulative amount in today's dollars?

I would like to see a general break down by neighborhood of of how much money has been spent for this and that (roads/streetscape/infrastructure/etc) over the last 5-10-15-20 years.  There seems to be a lot of jealousy towards all the progress in the core. It would be nice to say hey over the last 20 years hyde park had this where otr had this. 

 

I know its been said before but I think its important to bring up projects like the viaducts and say we spent x we're not gaining anything other than preserving where as the street car is this and were getting that.

One more thing. I own and live in 1215 republic street. Let me know if there is anything I can do to help!

The neighborhoods don't realize that the neighborhoods already get far more from the city than they contribute.  Our city, per Ohio law, gets most of its income from an earnings tax, not property tax.  This means all of the suburbanites and Kentuckians who work in the city pay for police, fire, trash, roads, and special programs.  Downtown and Uptown pay for all this stuff, not Mary Kuhl. 

The neighborhoods don't realize that the neighborhoods already get far more from the city than they contribute. 

 

That's what I was thinking. I think it would be a great way to put things into perspective.

It was good to see Ryan Messer on Local 12 news this evening.  As someone who invested in OTR after the second anti-streetcar ballot issue failed, he put a positive, reasoned face on the implications of scrapping the project. 

 

On the other hand, I'm sorry but I just have to say it:  some of the pre- and post-election comments and reactions by streetcar supporters that I've either read, seen, or heard about are beyond worrisome.  Bluster, insults and ad hominem remarks are NOT persuasive, and ultimately hurt the cause.  I personally know people who've been active supporters but who can no longer abide by those who employ these types of tactics.  I've lived here all of my life and I'm willing to bet that a moveon.org petition with 4,000 signatures isn't a winning strategy in Cincinnati.

 

The possibility of alienating newly-elected council members is very real.  Some of them have hinted that their decision whether or not to scrap the project depends solely on costs.  This can work in our favor.  Please, let's not blow it.

 

 

This is just a general reminder from the management that this is a public board and these messages are viewable to the general public. That includes opponents of the streetcar. You can post whatever you want within reason of course, but just remember that this board is monitored.

Here is the link to Channel 12's Monday report:

http://www.local12.com/news/features/top-stories/stories/more-streetcar-rails-delivered-cranley-total-disregard-taxpayer-4617.shtml#.UoHW1r9EDr0

I'm an optimist as much as the next guy, but chances are overwhelmingly in favor of Cranley and council cancelling this project. 

 

"I respect their passion for Over-the-Rhine and share their goal of building a vibrant neighborhood and city. But, OTR will be better off without the streetcar because it will free up resources for continued Washington Park-like investments.  I am optimistic about OTR's future and will work to ensure its continued growth."

- John Cranley today

 

http://wvxu.org/post/streetcar-supporters-plan-open-forum-discussing-legal-options

 

Having 'no plan' for when they do, as the enquirer and 700wlw are reporting, is not a plan.  Thursday night we need to come up with some solutions post Dec 1.  Facts, figures, numbers, statistics, and the whole kitchen sink needs to be everywhere in all the media.  The ramifications spelled out clearly and concisely, particularly the devastation to the operating budget, need to be everywhere

 

Most importantly, we have to SHOW UP in numbers at these events.  COAST, Smitherman, Cranley, Murray and others are publicly and privately mocking streetcar supporters.  You bring numbers to the events and media can't ignore you. 

I'm an optimist as much as the next guy, but chances are overwhelmingly in favor of Cranley and council cancelling this project. 

 

"I respect their passion for Over-the-Rhine and share their goal of building a vibrant neighborhood and city. But, OTR will be better off without the streetcar because it will free up resources for continued Washington Park-like investments.  I am optimistic about OTR's future and will work to ensure its continued growth."

- John Cranley today

 

What Washington Park-like investments is he talking about!?!  I think we, as general urban minded people, would be less hostile right now if he would just lay out his plan for continuing revitalization in our city.  All he is talking about is canceling a project in order to "have more money to do stuff with."  What stuff? 

 

I swear, if the streetcar gets derailed after all of our years of hard work, I am fully prepared to be in the frontlines of our city's next riot.  I will be PISSED.

 

That said, I am still holding by breath and hoping that this was all politics and that hard numbers will prevail. 

PG just announced on his facebook that the Port is going to cancel the parking deal.  No matter your feelings on the parking deal, there goes Cranley's $ to fix the operating budget hit a streetcar cancellation will cause.

Gathering signatures for a petition effort is VERY HARD WORK. When it comes time for this, the best strategy is getting a list of registered voters from the BoE and going door-to-door in your neighborhood. Gathering signatures in crowded places (Bengals games, etc) is easier but unfortunately only a small percentage of those folks are registered city voters.  All hands on deck for 30 straight days will be required to gather the requisite number of signatures.

 

Of course, convincing PG, Mann and/or Flynn that cancellation is an even worse idea than starting the project (since they already think starting it was a bad idea) is the preferred route.

> is VERY HARD WORK

 

Cranley has pissed off thousands of people this week.  It won't be difficult to get 50-100 people to go out and get signatures. 

 

PG just announced on his facebook that the Port is going to cancel the parking deal.  No matter your feelings on the parking deal, there goes Cranley's $ to fix the operating budget hit a streetcar cancellation will cause.

 

Wow.  That was a dumb move on Cranley's part....Wasson way bike trail is now dead too

 

Where is he going to get the money to plug the massive operating budget deficit for next year now?  It was $35 mil last year, and now we are looking at adding tens of millions more to it because of cancelling the streetcar? 

About 9,000 valid signatures are needed.

 

75 folks gathering signatures means 120 valid signatures per person.

 

In order to get 9,000 valid signatures we'll probably need to collect (conservatively) 1.5x that amount, or 13,500 total signatures, which amounts to 180 signatures per person.

 

I'm not here to discourage, but rather encourage and note that this is a difficult endeavor.

It may not be difficult to find people to go get the signatures, but the problem is getting the signatures.  Even then, a petition to do what?  To just shove it in Cranley's face sure, but to petition for referendum on the streetcar, which this time would be exactly that, a vote on continuing the streetcar project only and nothing else, is just as likely to fail as to pass.  The previous referendums were in the streetcar's favor, but not by a lot, and I suspect they passed only because people didn't like the overly-broad reach and questionable wording.  Plus, any special vote is going to bring out the naysayers and busybodies, but not the ambivalent voters.  Is another referendum really what we want?  What other options are there? 

About 9,000 valid signatures are needed.

 

75 folks gathering signatures means 120 valid signatures per person.

 

In order to get 9,000 valid signatures we'll probably need to collect (conservatively) 1.5x that amount, or 13,500 total signatures, which amounts to 180 signatures per person.

 

I'm not here to discourage, but rather encourage and note that this is a difficult endeavor.

 

Youre right, It's going to be tough.  But the vote will be just as tough if not tougher.  Voter turnout from the center of the city is going to have to come out in droves to counter the outer city burbs. 

Mea culpa.  I honestly didn't think that any of those new council members would do anything about the parking lease.  While I don't think the parking lease plan that resulted was a bad one, I have to give them credit for getting rid of something they campaigned against that, if left in place through inaction, would have really made their jobs a lot easier.

I swear, if the streetcar gets derailed after all of our years of hard work, I am fully prepared to be in the frontlines of our city's next riot.

 

That would be two riots that Cranley's "leadership" helped stoke the flames of ;)

I actually think the vote will be easier than the collection of signatures. While we'll certainly need to do a better job of getting out the vote than the Hamilton County Democratic Party did in the most recent election, a special election will have far worse turnout than the mayoral election. Those folks who don't care one way or another won't show up and you'll have the rabid anti/pro crowds that turn out. Lucky for us, most of the rabid anti-streetcar crowd doesn't live in the city.

^ I wouldn't be so sure.  At the very least, the previous elections showed that nearly all the non-core neighborhoods voted anti-streetcar. 

^But are those folks going to be motivated enough by this issue to come out and vote in favor of canceling a public infrastructure project in their third election in 6 months?

 

Either way. Tough, unfortunate road ahead if we can't convince enough council-members that canceling the project is a worse idea than starting it.

>I'm not here to discourage, but rather encourage and note that this is a difficult endeavor.

 

It's not difficult, it's just a matter of doing it.  The effort to stop the county sales tax hike for the stadiums required 55,000 signatures and they got it.

 

The problem I'm seeing over and over again is that the pro-streetcar crowd thinks they can just screw around on Twitter and what they want will be delivered to them.  The fact is that Smitherman, Finney, etc., have done an incredible amount of legwork to carry out their strategy.

 

 

The streetcar is done. He's not even mayor(Dec1st) yet and he just now canceled the parking deal with the port.

^^And appeared on old media that is broadcast all over the region and only requires hitting a button to see and hear. Obviously several people here have done that, but how many others have?

Messer and CAF, etc. need to issue statements/ultimatums about how much they're going to demand/sue the city for to close out their contracts so it can be out in the open before any actual decisions are made. 

Whats interesting is that Cranley had an 'out' with the parking plan.  Use the money to fill in the operating budget deficit from cancelling the streetcar

 

Now, if/when he carries out his wish to cancel the streetcar, we are looking at an approximate $55mil operating budget deficit for next year(Not including the $20mil he wants to spend for more cops/ff).

 

How in the world is this fiscal responsibility? 

 

Is he purposefully setting himself up to be able to say "Listen, I can't stop the streetcar but I did stop the parking" or is his ego really that big where he thinks he can cancel both without consequences

Whats interesting is that Cranley had an 'out' with the parking plan.  Use the money to fill in the operating budget deficit from cancelling the streetcar

 

Now, if/when he carries out his wish to cancel the streetcar, we are looking at an approximate $55mil operating budget deficit for next year(Not including the $20mil he wants to spend for more cops/ff).

 

How in the world is this fiscal responsibility? 

 

Is he purposefully setting himself up to be able to say "Listen, I can't stop the streetcar but I did stop the parking" or is his ego really that big where he thinks he can cancel both without consequences

 

He’s egotistical enough to stop both at any cost. He thinks he can cover the costs as capital costs. See this quote:

 

“Who said this? Some kid? What citation did they cite to make this absurd argument?” he asked. “If the federal funds are paying for something, presumably capital-related, and we’re paying them back, in essence, buying the goods that the federal government paid for, and that good is a capital good. So of course the capital budget can be used. The city’s allowed to build a road and tear up the road. Just because we don’t end up using the road doesn’t mean we can’t consider it a capital expense.”

 

Streetcar supporters are just “some kids,” in his mind.  Yet he doesn’t realize that he’s really only referring to sunk capital costs, and that all the litigation, breach of contract, federal reimbursements, etc. aren’t capital expenditures at all.

 

The quote above is the one that put me firmly into the “do anything and everything to make Cranley’s mission as difficult as possible” camp, by the way.

 

Get a vote of basin property owners to provide a small property tax increase to support the streetcar construction and operations, ala LA and KC and use the federal funds to get up the hill to Uptown. The "other Cincinnati" doesn't want any part of this. Don't subject yourself to them.

KJP it will be too late for that. The Feds already put a deadline on the funds to be spent.

Once Nearly Extinct, Streetcar Gets New Life in US

KENOSHA, Wis. November 12, 2013 (AP)

By JASON KEYSER Associated Press

Associated Press

 

When the auto plant here closed, this prosperous Wisconsin port city on Lake Michigan lost more than just its largest employer. Its sense of vitality seemed to drain away, and city leaders set out to find something that would inject life into the brick-storefront downtown while the economy went through a transition.

 

What they came up with was obsolete: an electric streetcar. Kenosha decided to bring back a relic that once clattered around metropolitan areas in pre-war America but was abandoned on the march to modernity.

 

More than a decade later, the experiment is now popping up all over. More than 30 cities around the country are planning to build streetcar systems or have done so recently. Dallas, Portland and Seattle all have new streetcar lines. Most projects involve spending millions of dollars to put back something that used to be there — often in the same stretches of pavement.

 

"It goes along with the revival of inner cities all over America," said Steve Novick, transportation commissioner in Portland, which has spent more than $250 million to replace the lines the city shut down in 1950. "It's too bad that they weren't kept here all along."

 

READ MORE AT:

http://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory/extinct-streetcar-life-us-20862240

KJP's idea is worth considering. A special improvement district could be used not only to help fund the streetcar but also to show commitment from the neighborhoods that would benefit most. The idea could be used in negotiations with the city council and mayor's office, even though the first dollar a SID would produce would be years off.

Get a vote of basin property owners to provide a small property tax increase to support the streetcar construction and operations, ala LA and KC and use the federal funds to get up the hill to Uptown. The "other Cincinnati" doesn't want any part of this. Don't subject yourself to them.

 

KJP can you please elaborate just a bit on the mechanics of such a vote, as I'm not familiar. I am one such basin property owner, and as I've said above, I would support a transit property tax.

 

Can council put such a vote on the next ballot, presumably limited to voting districts within a prescribed area?

^ Perhaps, if Cranley doesn't cancel the streetcar (as Jake has already predicted), he'll attempt to construe himself as the Ultimate Pacifier of both sides of the equation, neither completely blocking Cincinnati's streetcar nor totally agreeing to its completion.  Thus, in any scenario, this visionless opportunist will win and thus increase his own political-standing.  (Just a thought, thanks to Jake... )

Cranley just said he is going to build mlk interchange but has no idea how or what needs to be cut

 

Also reiterated that the streetcar conversation is over and that otr will be better without a streetcar.  Sending an aide to the townhall meeting

Couldn't a special improvement district be established to support the streetcar (http://codes.ohio.gov/orc/1710)?

KJP's idea is worth considering. A special improvement district could be used not only to help fund the streetcar but also to show commitment from the neighborhoods that would benefit most. The idea could be used in negotiations with the city council and mayor's office, even though the first dollar a SID would produce would be years off.

 

Yes. Also, the valuation on my property on Elm just went from $41K to about $180K because of a total rehab. I estimate the increased property taxes on that valuation to be over $3,250/year. I applied for, and will receive, a 10 year tax abatement on the full increase in valuation, which has a present worth of about $26K.

 

I know it's likely impractical to link a tax abatement program and a special taxing district; my point is that the increased property valuation from investment in properties around a streetcar line would currently be tax except, under broad city policy. This at the least provides an additional carrot for those owners who have chosen to invest, to vote for the special assessment.

 

People like me who would benefit should pay part of the cost. It would provide a template for line extension into neighborhoods. I wish my elected leaders would ask me to invest.

 

And, frankly, I'd like to completely destroy the wedge issue of streetcar "haves" versus everyone else. It's not helpful to anyone, and doesn't move the city forward, even if Cranley has decided to exploit it.

OTR is better without a streetcar.  Really?  This goes one step further than "let's analyze it for positive or negative cashflow."

 

His borderline belligerence is curious.

If there’s going to be a special district of any type, downtown corporate property owners would be the ones to get on board. A few hundred extra dollars in tax on a condo in OTR is nothing compared to the increase in tax on a skyscraper downtown.

Get a vote of basin property owners to provide a small property tax increase to support the streetcar construction and operations, ala LA and KC and use the federal funds to get up the hill to Uptown. The "other Cincinnati" doesn't want any part of this. Don't subject yourself to them.

 

KJP can you please elaborate just a bit on the mechanics of such a vote, as I'm not familiar. I am one such basin property owner, and as I've said above, I would support a transit property tax.

 

Can council put such a vote on the next ballot, presumably limited to voting districts within a prescribed area?

 

I have to run to meetings the rest of the evening, but these websites & articles are a place to start......

 

http://www.kcstreetcar.org/

http://www.kansascity.com/2012/12/12/3962799/kc-streetcar-taxes-pass-overwhelmingly.html

 

http://www.streetcar.la/

http://articles.latimes.com/2012/dec/01/local/la-me-streetcar-vote-20121202

The short-term goal should be having the existing contracts continually honored until at least the next election (whenever that is).

"(B) Once the board of directors of the special improvement district adopts a plan, it shall submit the plan to the legislative authority of each participating political subdivision and the municipal executive of each municipal corporation in which the district is located, if any. The legislative authorities and municipal executives shall review the plan and, within sixty days after receiving it, may submit their comments and recommendations about it to the district. After reviewing these comments and recommendations, the board of directors may amend the plan. It may then submit the plan, amended or otherwise, in the form of a petition to members of the district whose property may be assessed for the plan. Once the petition is signed by those members who own at least sixty per cent of the front footage of property that is to be assessed and that abuts upon a street, alley, public road, place, boulevard, parkway, park entrance, easement, or other public improvement, or those members who own at least seventy-five per cent of the area to be assessed for the improvement or service, the petition may be submitted to each legislative authority for approval. If the special improvement district was created for the purpose of developing and implementing plans for special energy improvement projects, the petition required under this division shall be signed by one hundred per cent of the owners of the area of all real property located within the area to be assessed for the special energy improvement project.

 

Each legislative authority shall, by resolution, approve or reject the petition within sixty days after receiving it. If the petition is approved by the legislative authority of each participating political subdivision, the plan contained in the petition shall be effective at the earliest date on which a nonemergency resolution of the legislative authority with the latest effective date may become effective. A plan may not be resubmitted to the legislative authorities and municipal executives more than three times in any twelve-month period."

 

http://codes.ohio.gov/orc/1710

^So the question is, can you get the holding companies that 3CDC controls to sign off on it? I'm sure they own enough frontage and/or area to kill any proposed special taxing district if they desired.

If there’s going to be a special district of any type, downtown corporate property owners would be the ones to get on board. A few hundred extra dollars in tax on a condo in OTR is nothing compared to the increase in tax on a skyscraper downtown.

 

Hint: They aren't voters. The special improvement district would be voted on by residents of the district.

 

Edit: Never mind, looks like Ohio law might be different. I was describing the scenario the Kansas City mayor mentioned on the radio a couple weeks ago, which they used to support their streetcar. I think LA is similar, but I'm not sure. Getting the support of OTR/CBD property owners will be significantly harder than getting support of residents.

The short-term goal should be having the existing contracts continually honored until at least the next election (whenever that is).

 

Agreed, and I think it would give the streetcar the best chances if the election were the general election in November as opposed to any special election. There should be some coordination between the contractors lawyers and people in charge of getting a ballot initiative together to save the streetcar.  It would be ideal to get a temporary injunction allowing current contracts to be executed until a November 2014 election. Although the rules surrounding signature turn ins may make that impossible, and require it be voted on earlier.

Kevin Flynn said he wants a new estimate on the return of investment of streetcar before he makes a final  decision

$133m (total) - $45m (federal portion) = $88m (city portion)

$88m (city portion) - $26m (already spent) = $62m (left to spend)

$287m (minimum net ROI) / $62m = 4.6x minimum ROI

 

If $26m is already spent, it's not worth considering in where we go from here. Stop using 2.7x and start using 4.6x.