Feds to Cincinnati: Streetcar money must be returned if project cancelled

 

The federal government today notified Cincinnati that if the city doesn’t build the streetcar, the $44 million from the federal government must be returned.

 

The letter offers no surprises. The only problem? The city has spent about $2.4 million of the money so it would  have to find it elsewhere in the budget so the whole amount can be returned.

 

Link To Letter

 

Fixed the headline for them.

:clap:

John Cranley is still several weeks away from being sworn in as mayor of Cincinnati and he's already one of the most unpopular, if not worst, mayors this city has had.

 

All hail John Caesar!

John Cranley is still several weeks away from being sworn in as mayor of Cincinnati and he's already one of the most unpopular, if not worst, mayors this city has had.

 

As awful as he is, do you have poll numbers to back that up?

 

One thing that drove me nuts following the election btw is the lack of public polling on it?  Was IPR at UC contacted at all to do any kind of local polling for this race or anything?

Didn't the city take out a $60m bond? Did they spend that money yet? If not how did they come up with the $25 m figure that they already spent? Did they spend the bond money then dip into the Fed money???

I don't know about the rest of you, but I see today's letter from the feds as a huge positive sign that this project still has a chance.  I would hope that even the most extreme conservative would see the stupidity in just letting that much money go to another city. *Although, thats what I said about Kasich before he sent back 400 million for the 3C project. I truly hope we can talk some sense into our new council members. Flynn used to be a strong Streetcar supporter so he is a good start. I think he just used the anti streetcar crowd to get himself elected.

^I like your rationale... except that Cranley isn't a conservative. He's an egomaniac, who cannot... ever... admit he was wrong. He's smart, but not smart enough to realize he doesn't know everything, and that occasionally something can work despite him not "getting it". That's a dangerous quality to have in an elected official. 

I don't know about the rest of you, but I see today's letter from the feds as a huge positive sign that this project still has a chance.  I would hope that even the most extreme conservative would see the stupidity in just letting that much money go to another city. *Although, thats what I said about Kasich before he sent back 400 million for the 3C project. I truly hope we can talk some sense into our new council members. Flynn used to be a strong Streetcar supporter so he is a good start. I think he just used the anti streetcar crowd to get himself elected.

 

The key difference between the streetcar and 3C proposal is that the former is under construction, with signed contracts. 3C was only in the study phase, so it was much easier to kill.

Via @amyfab on Twitter -- Three media outlets covered the Streetcar Town Hall tonight, and had very different narratives:

 

 

 

Tonight at the town hall meeting, attorney Don Mooney said cancelling the streetcar would be a trial attorney's dream come true.

^one of those outlets is a complete joke. Sad that I didn't recognize the reporter's name, but could tell instantly that he wrote for the Enquirer.

German tweeted that pg said today's news was 'a Big get for the pro streetcar side'. 

^I like your rationale... except that Cranley isn't a conservative. He's an egomaniac, who cannot... ever... admit he was wrong. He's smart, but not smart enough to realize he doesn't know everything, and that occasionally something can work despite him not "getting it". That's a dangerous quality to have in an elected official.

 

You are correct, he is an egomaniac.  The sad thing is that the city has to pay the price for his ego.  I would like to say so much more, but his ego pretty much sums it up.     

I heard Cranley is going to D.C to lobby that streetcar money be used for other projects. We need more pro streetcar info out there. Maybe contact your congressmsn and show how much you want the streetcar and why.

I know after more than 600 pages we've probably had enough anecdotal tales of ignorance regarding the streetcar, but as an out-of-towner, I experienced my first one tonight and I want to share it. I was on the Red line in Chicago tonight when a group of students from LaSalle HS got on board. I struck up a conversation with them and found out they were in town on a service trip. Their Chicago-based guide/supervisor asked if they had any transportation in Cincy. The boys told the lady no, and one told the story about the incomplete subway system.

 

Then, their middle-aged chaperone teacher spoke up and said, "And thank goodness, we'll never have it in Cincy." He said the one we were supposed to be building now was only going to travel a half-mile. I spoke up and told him that the route is actually nearly four miles. He then said, "Well, the problem is it doesn't go near anything that people go to. It doesn't go near the casino or any of the hotels." I began to rattle off the list of attractions and points of interest along the route and told him the original route was to connect downtown with UC. He then claimed, "Now that's a project I could get behind. Why can't they think of something like that?"

On that note, I've talked with a few of my friends up here about what's going on in Cincy (including one who traveled there and found it absolutely beautiful) and each and everyone of them has a wide eyed look on their face and states WHAT?

 

Photos from tonight:

 

 

 

 

Great pics, but are those people in the first pic supposed to be protesting for or against it??

Great pics, but are those people in the first pic supposed to be protesting for or against it??

 

For. The crowd was too big in the library, so it spilled into Fountain Square, where the jumbotron showed the event.

Great pics, but are those people in the first pic supposed to be protesting for or against it??

 

For. That's part of the pro-streetcar rally that spilled out onto Fountain Square. Persons were watching what was going on inside the rally on a giant screen.

 

BTW, what is a Jason Williams? And did his parents have any children that lived?

Jason Williams is a musician, a ball player & now, apparently a dour twitterer.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7XVb-zSFqYM

I think the work ought to be stopped until we make a final decision,” Councilman-elect David Mann said. “It’s unfortunate there’s been an aggressive effort to get as much work done as possible, for fear of what voters would have to say on Election Day

 

 

http://news.cincinnati.com/article/20131115/NEWS01/311150060

 

 

Halting the streetcar, as David Mann suggest, means canceling the streetcar

 

The feds made that 100% crystal clear in the letter.  Whenever someone mentions 'halting the streetcar to look at costs' that effectively means canceling it due to the progress report checkpoints.  We have to make this crystal clear. 

 

 

 

I think the work ought to be stopped until we make a final decision,” Councilman-elect David Mann said. “It’s unfortunate there’s been an aggressive effort to get as much work done as possible, for fear of what voters would have to say on Election Day

 

 

http://news.cincinnati.com/article/20131115/NEWS01/311150060

 

 

Halting the streetcar, as David Mann suggest, means canceling the streetcar

 

The feds made that 100% crystal clear in the letter.  Whenever someone mentions 'halting the streetcar to look at costs' that effectively means canceling it due to the progress report checkpoints.  We have to make this crystal clear. 

 

 

Also, as with any construction project, if the city were to halt work to “evaluate options” as some council members want it to do, the contractor will charge a daily fee.  It could be a huge cost to pay the contractor to sit around and do nothing.  It’s scary that there are people on council who are going to vote to stop construction without knowing even the basic contractual obligations of the city. We could waste hundreds of thousands of dollars to reevaluate the costs of a project that has been scrutinized to death.

I think the work ought to be stopped until we make a final decision,” Councilman-elect David Mann said. “It’s unfortunate there’s been an aggressive effort to get as much work done as possible, for fear of what voters would have to say on Election Day

 

 

http://news.cincinnati.com/article/20131115/NEWS01/311150060

 

 

Halting the streetcar, as David Mann suggest, means canceling the streetcar

 

The feds made that 100% crystal clear in the letter.  Whenever someone mentions 'halting the streetcar to look at costs' that effectively means canceling it due to the progress report checkpoints.  We have to make this crystal clear. 

 

 

Also, as with any construction project, if the city were to halt work to “evaluate options” as some council members want it to do, the contractor will charge a daily fee.  It could be a huge cost to pay the contractor to sit around and do nothing.  It’s scary that there are people on council who are going to vote to stop construction without knowing even the basic contractual obligations of the city. We could waste hundreds of thousands of dollars to reevaluate the costs of a project that has been scrutinized to death.

 

That's precisely the Cranley gameplan.  Delay then cancel. 

In John Cranley's world, replacing 200 construction workers with 100 attorneys is a good trade.

From today:

 

'Downtown and OTR will do great without the streetcar. I urge those streetcar supporters to work with us to find alternatives'

 

-John Cranley

 

 

David Mann will be on 700wlw at 1pm today with Dan Carroll to talk about the streetcar

'warp has a poll

http://cincinnati.com/blogs/politics/2013/11/15/should-city-immediately-halt-streetcar-project/

It's really fascinating how ignorant the folks are who want to stop the streetcar.

'warp has a poll

http://cincinnati.com/blogs/politics/2013/11/15/should-city-immediately-halt-streetcar-project/

It's really fascinating how ignorant the folks are who want to stop the streetcar.

 

How many of the anti-streetcar commenters actually live in Cincinnati?  I would guess that most of them live in Mason or some other suburb. 

it really just boggles my mind we are still having the same argument that was taking place in 2008 about the same topic with the same people. 

 

The streetcar is under construction and "fiscal conservatives" want to flush millions down the drain just so they can claim they were right. I can only imagine what other cities are thinking about us.  It is embarrassing.

 

If Salt Lake City, and extremely religiously conservative town, cam embrace public transit and its benefits why can't Cincinnati?  Its not even about the streetcar anymore it seems, its about ideologies and who "wins".  Which is a shame that people who live in the same city together can't unite to make the city better.

Its not even about the streetcar anymore it seems, its about ideologies and who "wins".  Which is a shame that people who live in the same city together can't unite to make the city better.

 

^Unfortunately it was never about the streetcar and always about who "wins".  Anyone who argued for or against the streetcar and didn't at least genuflect to the stats about ROI, etc., simply was playing a different game.

Mann is on DuyaElDubya.  I'd tell you what he was saying but I'm too distracted by the sounds of him trying to lick his elbow.

Hi All,

I am new to the area (moved in late February, and live in Cincinnati.  Coming from a smaller area and smaller urban area in Iowa, this town is a lot bigger than what I am used to.  I studied Economics and also did a lot of studies on Urban Economics, with a research paper on the case for downtown revitalizations.  (this was brought back from the Floods of 2008 and what Cedar Rapids would do to bounce back).  There were a lot of naysayers saying that the city wouldn't come back, etc.  But alas they did.

 

I know this wasn't a flood but the economics of the area over time, downtown, OTR, probably caused just as much damage on a per capita basis, if not a lot more, it seems.

 

That said, I am so frustrated and just can not understand the lack of progressiveness from the JC Crowd, etc.  Also it is appalling to me the lack of knowledge from people who are so against this project.  Also, it is very frustrating that the City Paper, runs an article titled "Costing City Taxpayers $50k a day".  That makes everyone calm.

 

That said, man I just hope somehow they get this thing built.  The guy seems bent on destroying it, and you have to think there are legitimate reasons behind that *ahem* special interests.  The guy isn't stupid, but he must not get out much.  It is appalling that "he doesn't believe" the ROI in the study.  Personally, people should ask themselves, why doesn't he believe in the urban core of Cincinnati, and why do so many people share that belief??  Why do you believe in MLK Interchange, what is the ROI on that?  How much will taxpayers pay a day for that, and will it help people on the west side?  I figured, best not give myself a headache over this anymore, I can only do so much.

 

Sorry for the vent on first post! :-P but glad I stopped lurking and can now become a part of this cool forum.  I hope to bring more lively discussion to different topics.  Although my studies are relatively short on Urban Economics, it is my biggest interest and I believe I have some decent insight on different topics as it relates to Economics of cities, etc.  Thank you and I look forward to more discussion!

IAGuy39, on behalf of UrbanOhio, welcome to the forum and thank you for a strong, first post!

Looking at the crystal ball. I see gloom times for the city of Cincinnati. They will be spending so much money paying lawsuits there will be nothing else to pay anything down. Which in-turn will force the city to go bankrupt. Cranley will just blame the past administration. Bankruptcy is his out since it would solve the pension problem as well.

Fantastically scathing post on CityBeat, regarding the Enquirer's "story" on streetcar construction costing $50,000/day. (Hint, they divided the long-known $1.5 million/month figure by 30 days). A must read.

 

http://www.citybeat.com/cincinnati/blog-5277-how_the_enquirer_got_today%E2%80%99s_anti_streetcar_story.html

Ohio uses fiscal emergency. I don't know if that gets the city out of pension obligations. I don't think so.

Still, it would deliver Cincinnati into the hands of the GOP.

 

Too bad there isn't any Solyndra money lying around, that would take care of Uptown route.

too bad we wasted all that money in Iraq, KyleCincy, sheesh...

too bad we wasted all that money in Iraq, KyleCincy, sheesh...

 

Same deal in Afghanistan, still there, and the grand stimulus spending. Was 1 shovel ready project ever completed?

Same deal in Afghanistan, still there, and the grand stimulus spending. Was 1 shovel ready project ever completed?

 

OK, no need to be silly.

too bad we wasted all that money in Iraq, KyleCincy, sheesh...

 

Same deal in Afghanistan, still there, and the grand stimulus spending. Was 1 shovel ready project ever completed?

 

Out comes the WLW voice.

Let's not embarrass ourselves in front of the new members! Keep your comments civil, on topic, and intelligent. I don't believe there has been much enforcement on the Streetcar, Mayor Race, or Council threads, but I will be deleting future posts that break these rules.

 

Welcome to UrbanOhio, IAGuy39! Aside from the politics, I hope you are enjoying Cincinnati!

The Streetcar, Parking Deal, Mayor, and City Council threads are going to be cross-pollinating for the coming months. I don't think there's much that can be done to avoid it.

The Streetcar, Parking Deal, Mayor, and City Council threads are going to be cross-pollinating for the coming months. I don't think there's much that can be done to avoid it.

 

I'm not too worried about crossover on those threads. I'm worried about personal attacks, immaturity, and things that obviously don't belong (Iraq, Solyndra, etc). Not concerned with some crossover between those threads. Just pointing out that very little moderating has gone on with those three in particular (partly because of the natural crossover of the topics).

too bad we wasted all that money in Iraq, KyleCincy, sheesh...

 

Same deal in Afghanistan, still there, and the grand stimulus spending. Was 1 shovel ready project ever completed?

 

Out comes the WLW voice.

 

Just the opposite, I think the route should be larger. Nice try though.

bear in mind there is some politics - pretty bizarre politics - going on with the streetcar.

Some people might argue that NASA is robbing us of funds for rail transit and some might argue that the streetcar doesn't go far enough - that Mars would be a better destination than uptown.

oh, wait, that might fall under immature.

Same deal in Afghanistan, still there, and the grand stimulus spending. Was 1 shovel ready project ever completed?

 

OK, no need to be silly.

Quimbob is the one trolling me. Not silly to want the wasted 500 Million that Solyndra got that would have paid for all of the Downtown and

Uptown Streetcar route.

KyleCincy you are in shoulda woulda coulda territory.

it's pointless.

too bad we wasted all that money in Iraq, KyleCincy, sheesh...

 

Same deal in Afghanistan, still there, and the grand stimulus spending. Was 1 shovel ready project ever completed?

 

Out comes the WLW voice.

 

Just the opposite, I think the route should be larger. Nice try though.

 

I'm talking about the last sentence, not your opinion on the streetcar.

Not good news at all, guys

 

http://www.wlwt.com/news/local-news/cincinnati/new-council-works-to-halt-streetcar-project/-/13549970/22996960/-/gjlig3z/-/index.html?absolute=true&utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter&utm_campaign=wlwt

 

Supporters perceive three as persuadable. They are P.G. Sittenfeld, David Mann and Kevin Flynn.

 

However, all three told WLWT News 5 they believe work should be stopped while lawmakers look at a cost comparison of stopping versus continuing.

 

It appears the project will need a good legal team to survive

 

Some folks aren't going to like this," Sittenfeld said. "The mere possibility that this project could stop means I think we should not be spending money right now."

 

If the project is halted, it will be cancelled. Word is lawsuits will be ready before John Cranley and council even takes a vote on the streetcar