Enquirer: Day of reckoning for the streetcar

 

 

http://news.cincinnati.com/article/20131204/NEWS/312040046/Day-reckoning-streetcar?nclick_check=1

COAST and the tea party has just nominated John Cranley for an award

 

http://downtown-mtauburn.fox19.com/news/news/193301-conservative-group-nominates-cranley-award

COAST and the tea party has just nominated John Cranley for an award

 

 

We should crash their party.

^As I've mentioned before:

 

In the 2009 race, Mallory (black Democrat) received 54% of the vote against Brad Wenstrup (white Republican) during his reelection campaign. Cranley used the two wedge issues to get the passionate voters on his side (anti streetcar and anti parking lease). With 46% of the votes on your side (Republicans), the angry voters on your side (not the streetcar supporters who were largely complacent and didn't think the streetcar could be stopped), and a split Democratic Party who refused to endorse the race, how could yo lose if you are Cranley?

 

This is what I mean.  Anyone who suggests Cinti is 46% Repub has not lived in this city for very long.  Why would Repubs not even run a candidate for mayor in a city that was even close to 46% Repub?  Mallory barely won in his last race because he lost a significant chunk of his Dem support....

 

Parking did play into the Cranley election, but everyone who followed the race knew from the start that the streetcar was the marquee issue.  The parking issue was a late gift to Cranley, but Qualls was already well on track to lose the race by then.  Parking was the icing, but the streetcar was the cake that brought us Cranley....

 

The Repubs didn't have to run a candidate of their own. They had their man in John Cranley. This whole thing smells.

As many had expected, the confidential memo in the Duke case this summer stated Cincinnati would likely lose the case, citing a Supreme Court ruling in 1930. Not sure if any more recent rulings have overturned that precedent. Also not sure how WCPO got a copy of the memo or if it is legal to describe it since a court ruled it was confidential and couldn't be released. Though I'm sure WCPO vetted their lawyers to make sure they could release it.

 

http://www.wcpo.com/news/political/local-politics/confidential-memo-cincinnati-likely-to-pay-all-costs-for-moving-utilities-for-streetcar

 

My guess is that the "confidential memo" was in fact a "what is the worst case scenario" memo.  If your best precedent is a case from the 1930s, your side is probably pretty weak.  It seems pretty clear that if you are going to go to litigation, and your firm has multiple associate attorneys working an important case, the partner working the case will likely assign an attorney to present the arguments that the opposition will use.  The City law department is just an in-house firm for the City.  I could be wrong about this, but it seems to me that this isn't any different from any other litigation except that the people running the corporation now want the corporation to lose their own case.

Did anybody see the survey in the Cincinnati Business Courier.  I have been checking it for the past hour now and while many more people have voted in the survey, the percentages have stayed the same.

 

What should the city do with the streetcar project?

 

Finish it: 83%

Kill it: 16%

I don't care: 1%

 

Votes cast: 690

 

And the survey continues.........

 

Finish it: 84%

Kill it: 14%

I don't care: 2%

 

Votes cast:  1219

 

Obviously people want the streetcar to continue.  Cranley and the other people on city council need to wake up!

 

Did anybody see the survey in the Cincinnati Business Courier.  I have been checking it for the past hour now and while many more people have voted in the survey, the percentages have stayed the same.

 

What should the city do with the streetcar project?

 

Finish it: 83%

Kill it: 16%

I don't care: 1%

 

Votes cast: 690

 

And the survey continues.........

 

Finish it: 84%

Kill it: 14%

I don't care: 2%

 

Votes cast:  1219

 

Obviously people want the streetcar to continue.  Cranley and the other people on city council need to wake up!

 

 

And again, where are the Fortune 500's?  Do they want to be located in a city that will get this kind of negative national ink?

Does a 1930 court case mean Cincinnati will lose streetcar lawsuit?

 

It's unclear whether a 1930 case will be considered relevant by the courts given the factual differences in the two cases.

 

In 1930, the streetcar system was owned by a private company, The Cincinnati Street Railway Co. CSR itself was like a private utility, granted a franchise to operate by the city, although the city determined CSR's routes.

 

The 2016 version of the Cincinnati streetcar will be publicly owned by the city and operated by the region's public transportation agency — the Southwest Ohio Regional Transportation Authority.

 

As always, great reporting by the Business Courier.

 

I thought that might be the case. I wasn't sure when the streetcars were officially owned by the city and I figured they were still privately owned in 1930. I think that would be like forcing Duke to relocate lines so that Megabus can operate at a certain location. Cincinnati tells Megabus where they are allowed to stop in city streets, but that doesn't mean they are a city entity. Interesting. Cranley, of course, released this document to try to discredit streetcar supporters on the day of the election. I'm curious to see what other cases could be used to defend the city in this lawsuit.

^And the goal of public ownership was a big reason why cities like Cincinnati encouraged their transit companies to scrap their streetcar systems.  By reducing the physical assets of the transit company, they were less expensive for municipalities to buy. 

What did Cranley put in the water system around here?

 

I don't think it was Cranley that put it in there.  When I  lived in town I thought there was something wrong with the water.  For a half second it seemed like things were FINALLY going the right way for Cincy.  Its kind of come back with a vengeance.

Mama always said Cincinnati was kinda funny. Obviously not people on this board, but every once in a while you can see it. Now is one of those times.

FINALLY someone comes up with a logical compromise

Finish the streetcar & then mothball the streetcars. Just bring 'em out for opening day & Christmas & such.

 

http://cincinnati.com/blogs/letters/2013/12/03/complete-streetcar-project-but-cancel-operation/

 

Mama always said Cincinnati was kinda funny. Obviously not people on this board, but every once in a while you can see it. Now is one of those times.

 

If by funny you mean tragic, then yes. The ass backwards majority that calls this region home seems to think that they are smarter than the rest of the country when it comes to urban development. Rail is accepted as a proven tool for economic development and transportation in almost every major American city, yet little old Cincinnati knows best...it's just going to waste money! Yeah, New York, Philadelphia, Boston, Baltimore, DC, Miami, Pittsburgh, Cleveland, St. Louis, Charlotte, Dallas, Houston, Phoenix, Salt Lake City, Denver, Minneapolis, New Orleans, Atlanta, Tampa, Seattle, Portland, Sacramento, San Francisco, LA all got it wrong. We definitely shouldn't be emulating them, right?

 

This city is a sad, sad joke.

Councilwoman Yvette Simpson will move to put streetcar charter amendment on ballot

 

You can read the language of the amendment here.

FINALLY someone comes up with a logical compromise

Finish the streetcar & then mothball the streetcars. Just bring 'em out for opening day & Christmas & such.

 

http://cincinnati.com/blogs/letters/2013/12/03/complete-streetcar-project-but-cancel-operation/

 

 

The feds would never go for that. For example: they are investing in the Enhance Clifton transit project in Cleveland and are insisting that the bus service be increased from hourly off-peak (probably to at least half-hourly) and that weekend service be restored. The feds don't invest in something just so that it can be neglected or under-utilized.

Councilwoman Yvette Simpson will move to put streetcar charter amendment on ballot

 

You can read the language of the amendment here.

 

Some common sense at last?

It will be voted down in council though. I'm sure.

FINALLY someone comes up with a logical compromise

Finish the streetcar & then mothball the streetcars. Just bring 'em out for opening day & Christmas & such.

 

http://cincinnati.com/blogs/letters/2013/12/03/complete-streetcar-project-but-cancel-operation/

 

 

The feds would never go for that. For example: they are investing in the Enhance Clifton transit project in Cleveland and are insisting that the bus service be increased from hourly off-peak (probably to at least half-hourly) and that weekend service be restored. The feds don't invest in something just so that it can be neglected or under-utilized.

Is the transit center under 2nd street under utilized? The feds can't be happy with Cincinnati at all.

Business community finally speaking out.

 

A link would help. The press reaching out for comment. Who would of thunk it.

 

http://www.bizjournals.com/cincinnati/news/2013/12/04/want-to-know-what-the-business.html?s=image_gallery

Councilwoman Yvette Simpson will move to put streetcar charter amendment on ballot

 

You can read the language of the amendment here.

 

"...and that a negative vote on the charter amendment means that

the Cincinnati streetcar project shall not move forward"

 

I don't like that portion. An affirmative vote should mean the streetcar goes forward, but a negative vote should mean the decision rests with council. This amendment could be a de facto streetcar ban if it is shot down. What happens if the independent study changes the vote of Flynn or Mann, and then this charter amendment goes to the polls and loses? It looks like it will be open to public comment, so I supposed I could go make that comment where it matters.

Looking for a way to cope with disappointment.  I know, brainstorm memes!

 

Business community finally speaking out.

 

A link would help. The press reaching out for comment. Who would of thunk it.

 

http://www.bizjournals.com/cincinnati/news/2013/12/04/want-to-know-what-the-business.html?s=image_gallery

 

It's unfortunate that so many companies declined to comment, but it's encouraging that there wasn't a single "cancel the project" message from those that did respond.

 

Business community finally speaking out.

 

A link would help. The press reaching out for comment. Who would of thunk it.

 

http://www.bizjournals.com/cincinnati/news/2013/12/04/want-to-know-what-the-business.html?s=image_gallery

 

It's unfortunate that so many companies declined to comment, but it's encouraging that there wasn't a single "cancel the project" message from those that did respond.

 

You would think if they agreed they may be inclined to agree with canceling to gain favor with the emperor.  Or maybe that viewpoint is oversimplified.  Either way, I agree with your point.

Is there any chance it won't be cancelled?  I am so sick of following this drama.

Mama always said Cincinnati was kinda funny. Obviously not people on this board, but every once in a while you can see it. Now is one of those times.

 

Yeah, New York, Philadelphia, Boston, Baltimore, DC, Miami, Pittsburgh, Cleveland, St. Louis, Charlotte, Dallas, Houston, Phoenix, Salt Lake City, Denver, Minneapolis, New Orleans, Atlanta, Tampa, Seattle, Portland, Sacramento, San Francisco, LA all got it wrong. We definitely shouldn't be emulating them, right?

 

This city is a sad, sad joke.

 

Not to rub salt in the wound, but you forgot Oklahoma City!

 

Ironic how Republicans and the American and Cincinnatian right have essentially become anti-business.

I wonder if the 5th/3rd Bancorp CEO was talking about Mark Miller and Chris Finney when he said

 

"We will leave it to the transportation experts to determine whether these key objectives are best accomplished by a streetcar system, an expanded bus network or other solutions."

Streaming and snide comments available here:

 

http://news.cincinnati.com/interactive/article/20131204/CINCI/312040062/Watch-live-2-p-m-Will-streetcar-project-come-halt-?gcheck=1&nclick_check=1

^-This recent stain has already led to a backlash, remember how the whole shutdown/default went down.  Once the US Chamber of Commerce came out against it, the whole thing stopped.  There were also murmurs that the business community was going to throw more money in primaries for more pro-business canidates.

 

Unfortunately I've got a feeling that Cincinnati's current leadership is too stupid/arrogant to even consider their main backers point of view.

So is WCPO:

 

http://live.wcpo.com/Event/Vote_on_streetcar_project_expected_at_city_council

I really wish someone would call out those voting against the streetcar if it costs more to complete than to cancel - it's as if no one sees how ludicrous the notion is.  Either we spend a little more to complete and then get a return on our investment or we flush over $100M down the drain - this is fiscal responsibility?

Oh you forgot the $120 million to operate it over 30 years that they are starting to hammer into peoples heads.

Question from a non-resident: Why is so much emphasis put on Streetcar annual operating deficits? Is there any solid data from cities with existing streetcar systems to validate this $4 million or more per year projected deficit? Given that OTR is a popular tourist destination as well as The Banks new development how did the guesstimate of an operating deficit originate? Moreover, looking at this situation, wasn't the time to cancel the project BEFORE the city invested a dime in bricks and mortar not after millions have been pumped into it? I understand the Streetcar project survived two public referendums so not much of a convincing argument can be made that cancellation was the will of the people.  It seems cancelling the project now is like barricading the barn door long after the cows have gotten loose and scattered. Therefore, to those who scoff at Streetcar project supporters and base their opposition on arguments of fiscal/financial responsibility; is a project cancellation the financially prudent path now or would it not be better to complete phase one and put ridership revenue to a real world test?

 

I suspect and I'm sure many here would agree that this issue is really about ideology and/or local politics and is far less about financial prudence. The ghost of old Boss George Cox is probably smiling down on this debacle from somewhere. I'm personally most bothered by the information being shared that as many as 200 construction workers are being pink-slipped for Christmas just as the Holidays are now upon us. The new Mayor has shown little inclination to compromise in any way perhaps taking his cue from Congressionally gridlocked Washington. The day will come when cooler minds must prevail because compromise is the foundation everything our country is built upon. Without compromise, we cannot have a civilized society. I wish the new mayor and his supporters the best but urge them to put the needs of their city and its voters ahead of their own political/ideological agenda. Cincinnati wants to be perceived as a progressive city and surely shooting down the signature accomplishment of the previous city administration is not the best way to accomplish that. That's my 2 cents worth.

This is from the fast and the furious 7 productions that was paused today but not canceled.

 

"Grieving process for everyone involved. Then they will do script changes. And people they can't just simply scrap the movie altogether... Over $100 million has been spent and most of the filming has been done. I don't think Paul would want them to not release his last works"

 

When it comes to Cincinnati they can easily scrap 100 million and have nothing to show for it.

I really wish someone would call out those voting against the streetcar if it costs more to complete than to cancel - it's as if no one sees how ludicrous the notion is.  Either we spend a little more to complete and then get a return on our investment or we flush over $100M down the drain - this is fiscal responsibility?

Oh you forgot the $120 million to operate it over 30 years that they are starting to hammer into peoples heads.

Question from a non-resident: Why is so much emphasis put on Streetcar annual operating deficits? Is there any solid data from cities with existing streetcar systems to validate this $4 million or more per year projected deficit? Given that OTR is a popular tourist destination as well as The Banks new development how did the guesstimate of an operating deficit originate? Moreover, looking at this situation, wasn't the time to cancel the project BEFORE the city invested a dime in bricks and mortar not after millions have been pumped into it? I understand the Streetcar project survived two public referendums so not much of a convincing argument can be made that cancellation was the will of the people.  It seems cancelling the project now is like barricading the barn door long after the cows have gotten loose and scattered. Therefore, to those who scoff at Streetcar project supporters and base their opposition on arguments of fiscal/financial responsibility; is a project cancellation the financially prudent path now or would it not be better to complete phase one and put ridership revenue to a real world test?

 

I suspect and I'm sure many here would agree that this issue is really about ideology and/or local politics and is far less about financial prudence. The ghost of old Boss George Cox is probably smiling down on this debacle from somewhere. I'm personally most bothered by the information being shared that as many as 200 construction workers are being pink-slipped for Christmas just as the Holidays are now upon us. The new Mayor has shown little inclination to compromise in any way perhaps taking his cue from Congressionally gridlocked Washington. The day will come when cooler minds must prevail because compromise is the foundation everything our country is built upon. Without compromise, we cannot have a civilized society. I wish the new mayor and his supporters the best but urge them to put the needs of their city and its voters ahead of their own political/ideological agenda. Cincinnati wants to be perceived as a progressive city and surely shooting down the signature accomplishment of the previous city administration is not the best way to accomplish that. That's my 2 cents worth.

 

Ummm...what will Cincinnati spend on local streets and roads over the next thirty years in NON-USER funds??? Bet it's waaayyy more!

Many of life's failures are people who did not realize how close they were to success when they gave up

-Thomas Edison

I really wish someone would call out those voting against the streetcar if it costs more to complete than to cancel - it's as if no one sees how ludicrous the notion is.  Either we spend a little more to complete and then get a return on our investment or we flush over $100M down the drain - this is fiscal responsibility?

Oh you forgot the $120 million to operate it over 30 years that they are starting to hammer into peoples heads.

Question from a non-resident: Why is so much emphasis put on Streetcar annual operating deficits? Is there any solid data from cities with existing streetcar systems to validate this $4 million or more per year projected deficit? Given that OTR is a popular tourist destination as well as The Banks new development how did the guesstimate of an operating deficit originate? Moreover, looking at this situation, wasn't the time to cancel the project BEFORE the city invested a dime in bricks and mortar not after millions have been pumped into it? I understand the Streetcar project survived two public referendums so not much of a convincing argument can be made that cancellation was the will of the people.  It seems cancelling the project now is like barricading the barn door long after the cows have gotten loose and scattered. Therefore, to those who scoff at Streetcar project supporters and base their opposition on arguments of fiscal/financial responsibility; is a project cancellation the financially prudent path now or would it not be better to complete phase one and put ridership revenue to a real world test?

 

I suspect and I'm sure many here would agree that this issue is really about ideology and/or local politics and is far less about financial prudence. The ghost of old Boss George Cox is probably smiling down on this debacle from somewhere. I'm personally most bothered by the information being shared that as many as 200 construction workers are being pink-slipped for Christmas just as the Holidays are now upon us. The new Mayor has shown little inclination to compromise in any way perhaps taking his cue from Congressionally gridlocked Washington. The day will come when cooler minds must prevail because compromise is the foundation everything our country is built upon. Without compromise, we cannot have a civilized society. I wish the new mayor and his supporters the best but urge them to put the needs of their city and its voters ahead of their own political/ideological agenda. Cincinnati wants to be perceived as a progressive city and surely shooting down the signature accomplishment of the previous city administration is not the best way to accomplish that. That's my 2 cents worth.

 

It's a rhetorical tactic. unusualfire was parroting (and mocking) one of the new council members (Amy Murray), who was using the total 30-year operating cost to show how allegedly expensive the project will be. Of course, she completely ignored the professional and academic studies noting that the ROI is multiple times greater than the expenses. Even if these estimates were significantly off the mark, the ROI is certainly greater than zero, but it doesn't serve Murray's purpose to admit there will be any return, whatsoever.

 

You are preaching to the choir in your analysis of the situation. It's a relatively minor project, which the local media, opportunist politicos, and gullible citizens have whipped into a civil war, to disastrous effect.

Yeah i was saying how ridiculous that 30 years is. She didn't even mention how much fares,fees advertising would be collected over 30 years.

"Kevin Osborne @kevinwcpo

 

CORRECTION: Offer of private funding is to continue streetcar construction for 7 days; no one said who is paying"

3:32 PM

 

TwitterKevin Osborne @kevinwcpo

 

Cranley: Met w/ leaders of Messer Prus Delta yesterday & they "agreed to cooperate with a pause"

They had a compromise to keep construction going and fund an independent audit WITH PRIVATE MONEY

 

Mann was on board and then Cranley took him aside, badgered him and now he changed his mind.  UNREAL

Wonderful to see that Mann as a veteran and statesman has just been bullied by a 30-something.

 

Cranberry is exposed.  This has nothing to do with money and his arguments about financial considerations should be heretofore discredited.

 

How will he ever build a coalition to get ANYTHING accomplished in the future.  He is simply unbelievable.

They had a compromise to keep construction going and fund an independent audit WITH PRIVATE MONEY

 

Mann was on board and then Cranley took him aside, badgered him and now he changed his mind.  UNREAL

 

That kills me.  It seems most of the council members are reasonable enough to consider something like that but its Cranley that's not letting them.

The amount of BS coming out of Cranley's mouth is hard to even listen to.  He is completely ignoring common sense and being very passive aggressive.  This is going to be a long 4 years.

3:32 PM

 

TwitterKevin Osborne @kevinwcpo

 

Cranley: Met w/ leaders of Messer Prus Delta yesterday & they "agreed to cooperate with a pause"

What are they going to do - keep working?

Oh my god. Yvette Simpson just picked up a fucking sledgehammer. This is brilliant. Where did SHE come from?

3:32 PM

 

TwitterKevin Osborne @kevinwcpo

 

Cranley: Met w/ leaders of Messer Prus Delta yesterday & they "agreed to cooperate with a pause"

What are they going to do - keep working?

 

Two ways to interpret that:

 

1. They agreed to a pause because they believe it's going to be temporary, and plan to start back up in a month.

2. They agreed to a pause... but they plan to sue the city's pants off if it's cancelled.

Two ways to interpret that:

 

1. They agreed to a pause because they believe it's going to be temporary, and plan to start back up in a month.

2. They agreed to a pause... but they plan to sue the city's pants off if it's cancelled.

 

why not both

 

wish in one hand, shit in the other, and see which fills up first

They had a compromise to keep construction going and fund an independent audit WITH PRIVATE MONEY

 

Mann was on board and then Cranley took him aside, badgered him and now he changed his mind.  UNREAL

 

That kills me.  It seems most of the council members are reasonable enough to consider something like that but its Cranley that's not letting them.

 

I've been following this thread almost from day one. Since I'm writing this from Texas, I cannot help but see parallels between Cincinnati's new mayor and our homegrown fly-in-the-ointment Tea Partier Ted Cruz. Both seem to have oversized egos and desire to be surrounded by a cult of personality. Whatever happened to the concept of public service? Or is now every elected political office merely a platform to spread one's ideology and ignore those voters who put you in office as well as that your position is a privilege, not a God-given right. Perhaps the new mayor with his outside the box thinking could join the Cruz ticket...seems like they would be a perfect ideological match. I won't comment much hereafter because I have no personal stake in this issue but it will be curious to see what Cincinnati's reality will be four years from now. The new mayor will have to deliver more than a streetcar cancellation to have any positive legacy for his administration. That means at some point he has to be FOR something, not from being against everything as his centerpiece. But that has worked so far for Mr. Cruz so maybe negativity is the new "positive"? Only time will tell. This all seems so petty and pointless and comes at a time when Cincinnati has been getting some good press and national image makeover.

John S., you do have a stake in the matter, as someone considering investing in the city. It helps to have voices from outside the bubble, so I hope you continue contributing to the conversation.

^I don't live in Cincinnati either but we all have a stake in this.  The decisions being made by the new mayor and council make little sense in terms of civic or fiscal responsibility, nor in terms of looking out for the local public interest.  Is there a national-level agenda going on here to halt rail projects?  The same thing happened in Wisconsin.  Make it difficult for them to pull this off or the same thing could happen again elsewhere. What is happening in Cincinnati does seem to be story that could go national.

The "pause" is now official.