January 15, 201411 yr Why build a transit center and not use it. Can someone explain why they didn't put the streetcar line through the transit center. Or is it even possible Streetcars work much better at street level. Transit center would be better used for commuter rail, light rail, or intercity buses.
January 15, 201411 yr Author Why build a transit center and not use it. Can someone explain why they didn't put the streetcar line through the transit center. Or is it even possible It would be a 1.5 mile detour for very little benefit. The streetcar will, however, run directly over the transit center, so if commuter rail or bus service feeds into the transit center, riders can go up a flight of stairs or elevator and transfer to the streetcar
January 16, 201411 yr Why doesn't megabus use the transit center? The transit center is not currently staffed. If Metro or MegaBus wanted to use it, they would need to pay the operating costs (running the giant fans that pull out the diesel exhaust, lighting, cleaning the restrooms, running the elevators, etc.). If Megabus, Metro, and Greyhound agreed, they could each pay 1/3 of the cost and all use the facility.
January 16, 201411 yr It looks like they are going to do some utility work below the fresh streetcar tracks. Possibly the first time they've had to do so.
January 16, 201411 yr Red is electric, orange is telecom, yellow is gas, green is sewer, and blue is water. They may or may not be doing work on something under the tracks. When the locating service comes out they're given an area to mark everything, though where actual work will be done is usually quite a bit smaller. We'll just have to wait and see.
January 17, 201411 yr At Liberty St. today: "It's just fate, as usual, keeping its bargain and screwing us in the fine print..." - John Crichton
January 17, 201411 yr It looks like they are going to do some utility work below the fresh streetcar tracks. Possibly the first time they've had to do so. On the contrary, it looks like they already did some utility work, before the tracks were installed. The orange paint markings signify existing communication lines, which are probably owned by Cincinnati Bell. Notice that the paint marks follow the new asphalt, and new concrete sidewalk. The new asphalt and concrete sidewalk signify that work was done there recently. Yet, the asphalt adjacent to the tracks is even newer. Conclusion: the utility was built, then the streetcar track was built, then the orange paint showing the location of the existing utility was laid out.
January 17, 201411 yr On the contrary, it looks like they already did some utility work, before the tracks were installed. The orange paint markings signify existing communication lines, which are probably owned by Cincinnati Bell. Notice that the paint marks follow the new asphalt, and new concrete sidewalk. The new asphalt and concrete sidewalk signify that work was done there recently. Yet, the asphalt adjacent to the tracks is even newer. Conclusion: the utility was built, then the streetcar track was built, then the orange paint showing the location of the existing utility was laid out. Makes sense, I just don't understand why they would mark the utilities that they had just installed. It also doesn't make sense that they would install the track first and then dig underneath it for some reason. Notice that the orange marking on the curb reads "empty".
January 17, 201411 yr WLWT.com @WLWT 37m Video: Shop owner says Cincinnati Streetcar construction is hurting businesses http://on.wlwt.com/LlJcAO
January 17, 201411 yr WLWT.com @WLWT 37m Video: Shop owner says Cincinnati Streetcar construction is hurting businesses http://on.wlwt.com/LlJcAO We've got a "gangster-type government" (according to the guy who runs an iWireless store in a former KFC).
January 17, 201411 yr That was some of the worst reporting I've ever seen. "They didn't give you a notice?" They kind of let the entire city know ahead of time. And I'm calling a massive pile of bullshit on the claim he lost 80 percent of his sales for the period of that closure. This is the garbage reporting this city needs to work its best to rid itself of.
January 17, 201411 yr So Ann Murray is heading the auspices of the Transportation Committee which will over see the streetcar. Why put someone that is so against it in such a position as the head of it????? I can see crazy high fares under her leadership.
January 17, 201411 yr Didn't a Portland mayor say businesses should just close down for a week while construction was going on? Rebuilding the roads in Japan after they got hit with the earthquake/tsunami was amazing. Murray crows about her Japanese connections, maybe she can get some info on how to do road construction more efficiently in this town.
January 17, 201411 yr Didn't a Portland mayor say businesses should just close down for a week while construction was going on? Rebuilding the roads in Japan after they got hit with the earthquake/tsunami was amazing. Murray crows about her Japanese connections, maybe she can get some info on how to do road construction more efficiently in this town. Murray does not have an independent thought in her body. She is an extension of 700wlw and 55krc. Whatever they say, she says. Whatever they want, she wants. She will literally go along with any idea they have and vote accordingly. She is a lost cause for any kind of compromise along with smitherman and winburn
January 17, 201411 yr Makes sense, I just don't understand why they would mark the utilities that they had just installed. It also doesn't make sense that they would install the track first and then dig underneath it for some reason. Notice that the orange marking on the curb reads "empty". They mark existing utilities so that contractors won't accidentally dig them up and damage them. The orange marking reading "empty" probably signifies a utility conduit without a line in it. The telecom industry leaves room for future expansion. Instead of digging up the street again, they can feed a new wire through an empty tube.
January 17, 201411 yr So Ann Murray is heading the auspices of the Transportation Committee which will over see the streetcar. Why put someone that is so against it in such a position as the head of it????? I can see crazy high fares under her leadership. What gets me about Ann Murray's appointment to head the Transportation Committee is - it was unanimously approved by the entire city council. Somebody must know something we don't - namely, why the streetcar supporters on Council went along with her appointment. Do you think they did so to "keep peace in the family," so to speak? Can anyone here shed more light on what led to Murray, of all people, getting this appointment, and why? How likely is it that Murray as head of the Transportation Committee and an avowed opponent of the Streetcar will (or can) mess up the Streetcar Project and ultimately force it to fail? Does she have that power? My own guess is that she could not singlehandedly screw up the streetcar - if for no other reason than that a majority of council would have to approve any measures she advocates.
January 18, 201411 yr LOL: The 42 @The42BusDC 10m uhm... the new @DCStreetcar is approaching cincinnati? CAREFUL THERE. #trackthetrek pic.twitter.com/GIyZWBaOjV "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
January 18, 201411 yr So Ann Murray is heading the auspices of the Transportation Committee which will over see the streetcar. Why put someone that is so against it in such a position as the head of it????? I can see crazy high fares under her leadership. Ease up on Ann Murray. Everyone loves her music. It may be a little too easy listening, but come on.
January 18, 201411 yr "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
January 18, 201411 yr Hey guys! I took this vid of a thermite weld for streetcar last night on Liberty st. Enjoy!
January 18, 201411 yr Could the new federal budget help fund the streetcar’s Uptown Connector or bus rapid transit? More stuff for Murray, Cranley, Kasich & Jones to screw with http://www.bizjournals.com/cincinnati/news/2014/01/17/could-the-new-federal-budget-fund.html?ana=e_cinci_bn
January 18, 201411 yr Could the new federal budget help fund the streetcar’s Uptown Connector or bus rapid transit? More stuff for Murray, Cranley, Kasich & Jones to screw with http://www.bizjournals.com/cincinnati/news/2014/01/17/could-the-new-federal-budget-fund.html?ana=e_cinci_bn I don't think kasich or Jones will try anything in an election year. .. I'm more worried about Cranley telling the feds he doesn't want any future money out of spite to make phase 1a as unsuccessful as possible
January 18, 201411 yr "Cranley said city leaders should evaluate phase 1a based on whether the project is completed on time and within the project budget, whether as many people ride it as predicted and whether it spurs the type of economic development that has been projected. If it fulfills the promises supporters have put forth, Cranley said he’s willing to request money for phase 1b." This part is telling. It's the same act from opponents. Criticize the project for not being extensive enough and then hold it to a standard that only a more robust system can meet.
January 18, 201411 yr I agree with Cranley in principle. But keep in mind that the the economic development was projected-out over 20 - 34 years in the three studies that were done. So everyone reading this now may be a grandfather or grandmother by the time all of this clocks in. If that's the level of success he's demanding, ain't going to happen within his term. But within a year of today, there will be ample evidence that the streetcar is influencing development -- more parking-light development, storefronts coming alive around the stops, that sort of thing -- and few will dispute that it is fulfilling its economic development mission. Plus the rideship will be surprising. The OKI Travel Demand Model only is good at capturing work trips, and there will be a lot of those. But it's not capturing shopping and entertainment trips, and there will be a lot of those. Doesn't include any Reds or Bengals either. I can definitely see someone parking at Rheingeist on a summer day and taking the streetcar to GAPB. I think this will surprise everyone. I'm certain Phase 1a will be successful, but we will have learned from mistakes that can make 1b easier and better. I think the players will align to get the streetcar to Uptown fairly quickly. What's interesting, compared to downtown where the plan's been known for six years but the politics were ugly ... in Uptown, it's totally opposite -- wide political consensus that the streetcar needs to get there, but no plan, no champions, nothing. I discern no consensus on where an Uptown Streetcar should go and what it's supposed to do. My sense is the highest valued-add it could have is in repopulating Walnut Hills, which is really the only way the university community can grow. Plus the real estate is so great there -- buildings and sites galore, comparable to OTR in places. I see both directions of a streetcar running on McMillan and Woodburn between Hughes Corner and DeSales Corner. When the freeway changes are complete, McMillan will be more available for this.
January 19, 201411 yr Nice post John. What do you think about getting the streetcar to the Zoo? Their parking/traffic situation is horrendous (my wife works there and can tell you all about it). Not sure how people from the suburbs could utilize it, but for anyone coming in from out of town or living downtown it would be a very welcome addition. Just imagine you could tell tourists to stay in a hotel downtown and visit the zoo via the streetcar and use it to get to all the other downtown attractions as well.
January 19, 201411 yr Let's be honest here. Cranley, smitherman, winburn and murray will never, ever ever ever, support the streetcar on any way during their terms. They have shifted to stopping phase 1b at all costs while simultaneously trying to major 1a as unsuccessful as possible The good news is that we have a supermajority of council that wants to see it extended to clifton. The bad news is the the mayor will go to extreme lengths to see it never happens
January 19, 201411 yr Nice post John. What do you think about getting the streetcar to the Zoo? Their parking/traffic situation is horrendous (my wife works there and can tell you all about it). Not sure how people from the suburbs could utilize it, but for anyone coming in from out of town or living downtown it would be a very welcome addition. Just imagine you could tell tourists to stay in a hotel downtown and visit the zoo via the streetcar and use it to get to all the other downtown attractions as well. On a nice Saturday afternoon in May, when the Reds are in town and a lot of families are staying in the core looking for things to do, having the Zoo as the end-point for the Uptown segment would be terrific. On a Monday night in January, not so much. I don't see much development potential on Vine north of Corryville. That last half-mile will have low ridership most of the hours of the year. And I don't see much nighttime ridership heading east along Erkenbrecker to Children's either. Lately I've been wondering if the alignment could cut west through the Zoo parking lot to Jefferson to Ludlow.
January 19, 201411 yr I imagine an Uptown loop (going two-way throughout) following Woodburn on the east, McMillan on the south, MLK on the north (dedicated ROW), and Short Vine on the west (alternatively Jefferson w/ separated ROW, but I personally favor Short Vine until convinced otherwise). Connected to Downtown via a streetcar on Gilbert and a tunnel from University Plaza to the northern edge of Phase 1a. Also connecting to I-71/Wasson LRT via MLK. Before construction gets cooking on University Plaza, I believe the city should use eminent domain and design it as a transit hub and have the Port Authority develop a TOD plaza for Kroger, etc., with housing. (I am not sure how this would play out w/ the Ohio Supreme Court eminent domain ruling from Norwood, but it seems legit since it's fundamentally a transit project and Port Authority is not private).
January 19, 201411 yr Nice post John. What do you think about getting the streetcar to the Zoo? Their parking/traffic situation is horrendous (my wife works there and can tell you all about it). Not sure how people from the suburbs could utilize it, but for anyone coming in from out of town or living downtown it would be a very welcome addition. Just imagine you could tell tourists to stay in a hotel downtown and visit the zoo via the streetcar and use it to get to all the other downtown attractions as well. On a nice Saturday afternoon in May, when the Reds are in town and a lot of families are staying in the core looking for things to do, having the Zoo as the end-point for the Uptown segment would be terrific. On a Monday night in January, not so much. I don't see much development potential on Vine north of Corryville. That last half-mile will have low ridership most of the hours of the year. And I don't see much nighttime ridership heading east along Erkenbrecker to Children's either. Lately I've been wondering if the alignment could cut west through the Zoo parking lot to Jefferson to Ludlow. I agree that there is a good argument for building a new streetcar branch to Walnut Hills before extending phase 1 to UC/Corryville. The problem is that an incremental extension accomplishes nothing...the branch at the very least needs to get to McMillan/WH Taft in its first phase, if not MLK. Those are branches measuring 2 and 2.5 miles, respectively. The current 1b extension gets you somewhere, and is exactly 1 mile long, 2 miles gets the line north to the Zoo. A Walnut Hills branch traveling to Xavier University is exactly 4 miles, this is also where transit could be extended east on the Wasson Rd. ROW. The Wasson tracks form the border between Cincinnati and Norwood for some of their length.
January 19, 201411 yr Nice post John. What do you think about getting the streetcar to the Zoo? Their parking/traffic situation is horrendous (my wife works there and can tell you all about it). Not sure how people from the suburbs could utilize it, but for anyone coming in from out of town or living downtown it would be a very welcome addition. Just imagine you could tell tourists to stay in a hotel downtown and visit the zoo via the streetcar and use it to get to all the other downtown attractions as well. On a nice Saturday afternoon in May, when the Reds are in town and a lot of families are staying in the core looking for things to do, having the Zoo as the end-point for the Uptown segment would be terrific. On a Monday night in January, not so much. I don't see much development potential on Vine north of Corryville. That last half-mile will have low ridership most of the hours of the year. And I don't see much nighttime ridership heading east along Erkenbrecker to Children's either. Lately I've been wondering if the alignment could cut west through the Zoo parking lot to Jefferson to Ludlow. That's actually a pretty steep hill back there. I think if we want to go down Jefferson/Ludlow we would have to take Nixon or cut through the EPA parking lot. Both of those routes are considerably further away from the Zoo. I think the best thing to do for transit access to the Zoo is build a Vine Metro*Plus line (along with the other 5 planned lines) and promote the entire Metro*Plus system as rapid transit. The streetcar can work as a neighborhood circulator in conjunction with Metro*Plus. This is veering off topic, but can Metro apply for a TIGER grant to build more Metro*Plus lines and Transit Centers? Would Cranley support that, gien his current distaste for Metro?
January 19, 201411 yr Let's be honest here. Cranley, smitherman, winburn and murray will never, ever ever ever, support the streetcar on any way during their terms. They have shifted to stopping phase 1b at all costs while simultaneously trying to major 1a as unsuccessful as possible The good news is that we have a supermajority of council that wants to see it extended to clifton. The bad news is the the mayor will go to extreme lengths to see it never happens Yeah, but Cranley is only in office for four years (eight if we don't do our job getting someone else elected) and by then our downtown/otr loop will be running and doing well. So, we vote him out of office and elect another pro-streetcar majority and it will be just in time to get the next project going.
January 19, 201411 yr ^ That would be nice. And about $500 million. Which isn't a bad price tag for what you get, but I recognize the point that it's probably not politically viable as an all-at-once project. But we need a big picture to work towards, so we don't end up creating redundancies (MetroMoves is certainly a good guide for doing this, but I don't think it foresees LRT and streetcars sharing ROW -- which now seems like a coming reality). If 1b is built on Vine Street Hill, then something like my proposal is adopted in the future, the tracks up Vine basically become redundant -- they're slow and they don't offer much opportunity for development. Jake has a good point about 1b offering a tangible "somewhere" that it goes. Maybe I'm letting the perfect be the enemy of the good, but my hope is we aim higher. In terms of something shorter that reaches "somewhere," I'd prefer the tunnel to Short Vine, with a turnaround at Vine & MLK. Could be split between Short Vine and Jefferson, but again I prefer two-way on Short Vine until convinced otherwise. University Plaza could be redesigned with inviting pedestrian access to UC, making that the primary "UC stop" and avoiding having to spend too much "walkshed" on UC, which offers no development potential. It's not a long walk from Jefferson or the Jefferson dorms to Vine.
January 19, 201411 yr Both directions should be on Vine. Needs to approach from the east via Hollister/Auburn/Euclid/Corry.
January 19, 201411 yr Allow me to suggest something entirely different, given the assumption that Cranley, et al, will work to prevent any city monies from being spent on the construction or operation of any streetcar extensions. These Tiger grants are typically between $10-30 million. The high end of that estimate cannot fully fund phase 1b. A Tiger grant could fund construction of a further build-out in the downtown area, specifically construction of tracks on Race and Elm south to the convention center or The Banks (remember, this route was avoided originally in part because of Chris Bortz's conflict of interest). A south extension to 5th St. would require 5,300 feet of track and perhaps 2 additional streetcars. A south extension to 2nd St. would require 7,800 feet of track and 2 or 3 additional streetcars.
January 19, 201411 yr ^ But isn't it already going to 2nd Street anyway? Here's what I meant...this is a $20-30 million project, doubles the service headways above Central Parkway: The route names could be Findlay Market/Riverfront East and Findlay Market/Riverfront West. And sort of the same idea, but doubles the service headways south of Central Parkway, sets up approach for the Mt. Auburn Tunnel, could provide faster route up Vine St., or could continue up McMicken St. toward Mohawk Corner...service headways doubled north of Findlay Market: Streetcar sign boards could read Findlay Market via McMicken and Findlay Market via Washington Park
January 19, 201411 yr On a Monday night in January, not so much. I don't see much development potential on Vine north of Corryville. That last half-mile will have low ridership most of the hours of the year. And I don't see much nighttime ridership heading east along Erkenbrecker to Children's either. Lately I've been wondering if the alignment could cut west through the Zoo parking lot to Jefferson to Ludlow. Here are some 2013 helicopter views of the exact spot John Schneider is talking about...Jefferson is bisecting this image horizontally, with the line of parked cars not under solar panels showing the way streetcar tracks could cut from Vine over to Ruther: A wider view, with the intersection of Vine & Erkenbrecker at bottom center:
January 19, 201411 yr Here is the likely Gilbert Ave. streetcar branch route to Walnut Hills via Reading and Elsinore...as I mentioned previously, there is some dead space and few developable sites between the casino and the midpoint of the Gilbert Ave. Hill. At least theoretically, the streetcar could diverge from Reading near the casino parking garage entrance, travel under I-471's Liberty St. ramps, cross I-71 on the abandoned CL&N bridge, then enter Gilbert Ave. just uphill from Channel 9. Here is the planned location of Christ Hospital's station in the Mt. Auburn Tunnel: Here is the McMillan St./Calhoun St. pair: Here is Short Vine relative to UC: Another view of Short Vine...remember that both Vine St. streetcars from St. Bernard and Jefferson Ave. streetcars from Clifton and Northside once converged here, then diverged and traveled downtown either via Vine St. or Auburn Ave.:
January 22, 201411 yr I thought this piece in Next City was worth reading: Does Europe Build Streetcars? Not Quite http://nextcity.org/theworks/entry/does-europe-build-streetcars-not-quite In Cincinnati, the streetcar will run in four-lane, one-way streets. Downtown, the sidewalks are already quite generous. These are massive rights-of-way, and in Europe one of these streets would likely have been given a two-way tramway to avoid the problems one-way transit splits. But in Cincinnati, absolutely no space was dedicated to transit, and the one-way streets were left in place. There was an incredible outpouring of support for Cincinnati’s streetcar, enough to save it from multiple attempts on its life over the years. But there was not enough support for the street space changes that would have made the streetcar faster than a bus. (Or, if their streetcar turns out to be as slow as Portland’s, faster even than walking.)
January 23, 201411 yr Meeting today at one to discuss streetcar progress with tea party chair amy Murray
January 23, 201411 yr Next City has consistently been anti-streetcar, and I just don't get it. They seem to think rail transit is a waste of money unless you can build dedicated lanes or a subway -- yet they ignore the many of advantages of streetcars over the buses they are replacing.
January 23, 201411 yr ^ Lets not forget Atlantic Cities as well. They have been pushing their BRT agenda for quite some time now. Last month I saw an article about how BRT was a proven economic generator but that streetcars were "questionable" at best. “All truly great thoughts are conceived while walking.” -Friedrich Nietzsche
January 23, 201411 yr I've picked up both of those biases as well—just passing it along. I do think Next City brings up some interesting points, though the claim that the sidewalks downtown are quite generous seems to reveal a certain unfamiliarity with Cincinnati's situation.
Create an account or sign in to comment